John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,901 through 25,920 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946868
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    While the term “Jew” is derived from “Judah,” one of the 12 tribes of Israel, it came to represent the people of Israel as a whole, particularly after the Babylonian Exile.

    Historically, the 12 tribes of Israel were descended from the 12 sons of Jacob (also known as Israel). The tribe of Judah became particularly prominent because King David and King Solomon were from this tribe, and Jerusalem, located in the territory of Judah, became the religious and political center of ancient Israel.

    After the division of the Kingdom of Israel following Solomon’s reign, the northern kingdom retained the name “Israel” (made up of 10 tribes), while the southern kingdom became “Judah,” consisting mainly of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. However, after the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom in 722 BCE, many of the northern tribes were dispersed and became known as the “Lost Tribes of Israel.”

    In time, the term “Jew” came to refer to anyone who was part of the broader Israelite population, especially after the Babylonian exile, when the people of Judah returned to their land and the northern tribes had largely disappeared. Today, “Jew” refers to anyone who is part of the Jewish religion or ethnicity, regardless of which tribe they are originally from.

    #946869
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A lesson in God’s mercy and grace

    God is the God who gave the Law, But that wasn’t all. He also gave us mercy and grace. One through Moses and the other through Jesus Christ.

    You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?
    @DesireTruth

    The idea of the innocent bearing the guilt of the wicked is a key theme in the New Testament. It’s not about God changing His mind but rather a gradual revelation of His justice coupled with mercy. In the Old Testament, the sacrificial system, where innocent animals were offered for the sins of the people, foreshadowed the idea of substitutionary atonement. Prophetic passages like Isaiah 53 describe a suffering servant who would bear the sins of others, providing a foundation for this concept.

    Throughout scripture, God’s plan for atonement unfolds progressively. While Ezekiel 18:20 emphasizes personal responsibility for sin, the sacrificial system consistently points to the possibility of atonement through substitution. This reaches its culmination in the New Testament with the life and sacrifice of Jesus, where He, the innocent, willingly takes on the sins of humanity. The key here is that Jesus’ sacrifice is voluntary and part of God’s eternal plan, fulfilling what was foreshadowed in earlier scriptures.

    Rather than a change in God’s approach, this concept aligns justice and mercy in a unique way. Jesus’ sacrifice satisfies the need for justice (sin is punished), while at the same time offering grace, as the punishment is borne by another.

    Even in our own legal system there are situations where someone else can pay the penalty for another’s wrongdoing. For example, if my son receives a speeding ticket, I can cover the fine, and the consequence is resolved on his behalf. However, I would only step in to pay if he genuinely regretted his actions. And why might I do that? Because I love him.

    #946870
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    DT, Can’t believe your so ignorant that you ask such questions,

    WOW!!! I see the Jesus shining in you! I find it funny when “christians” respond with personal attacks, it reveals their insecurity and puts a smile on my face when a simple question invokes an ire in them.

    1….”FAITH IS, the substance of things hoped for, (how) by the “EVIDENCE” of things not seen. You need to get your own “proof” that God does actually exist, and is involved in you life. Without that you have only “suppositions” gained by hear sayer, as it appears you now have, by your words. You don’t seem to have proven God is actually in your life yet.

    Now that you have given me the Christian definition; now explain the “faith” of Abraham. Christians have “hope”; Abraham believed, trusted, and knew God would do as HE said HE would – Abraham’s faith. Not sure you’ll see the difference.

    I don’t “need proof” of the existence of God, I already know he is and always has been; you have an issue because I say I don’t “need” the Jesus; your religion tells you the only way to God is thru the Jesus. God never said that by the way.

    2…..God in scripture says, “Be you “HOLY” , because I am holy, be you “PERFECT” because I am PERFECT”.

    To whom was God speaking “you shall be holy, because I am holy.” Wasn’t it the Israelite’s…sure was, in Lev 11:44 & 45 and what was the context of this statement? Let’s start in verse 43:

    43 You must not defile yourselves with any swarmer that swarms, and you must not make yourselves unclean by them and so be made unclean by them,

    44 because I am Yahweh your God, and you must keep yourselves sanctified, so that you shall be holy, because I am holy. And you must not make yourselves unclean with any swarmer that moves along on the land,

    45 because I am Yahweh, who brought you up from the land of Egypt to be for you as God. Thus you shall be holy, because I am holy.

    Seems God was speaking to the Israelite’s about unclean things and they weren’t suppose to defile themselves with them so they remained holy. What’s your interpretation of this passage? Silence I’m sure.

    Your next statement “be you perfect because I am perfect” isn’t even in your bible. HAHAHA!!! The verse is actually “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” and was said by the Jesus and NOT God. What’s this in context to; loving your enemies. Christianity sure does like to cherry pick everything!

    Your last statement of me “having very little retention of scripture” is laughable; before you write something, you should probably confirm it first!

    #946871
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    What are you talking about? I have said repeatedly that Jewish people are people of the tribe of Judah, to which is one tribe of the 12 tribes OF ISRAEL. This is not difficult, If you are of the tribe of Levi you are not Jewish/of the tribe of Judah, but both tribes of course are of Israel.

    False! “Jew” isn’t a reference to a single tribe. You may want to consult a Jewish site and get your information from the source…a Jew – chabad.org (click it, article on Jewishness).

    Concerning Isaiah 7, as I posted to you before, I have no problem with God giving in the OT a prophecy to events soon to take place that also foreshadow a second fulfillment to occur even later to which holds more significance. Isaiah 7 is just one and these only go to show how intelligent and powerful our God is in how He planned everything out. Isaiah 7 speaks of a child born and whose name will be called Immanuel, meaning God with us/or with us is God and who is not more of an Immanuel than the child born of Isaiah 9, to which I say is Jesus the anointed of God’s Spirit of Isaiah 42 and 61.

    You “have know problem with God giving in the OT a prophecy to events soon to take place that also foreshadow a second fulfillment to occur even later to which holds more significance.” So did God say the prophecies, ones you believe will have a “second fulfillment”, have a “second fulfillment”? NOT ONE!

    So you believe in “dual prophecy”; why stop at just two, why not three, four, or more, then we can have many different understandings. The bottom line is you have to “believe” what you believe is truth, facts and proofs seem to be meaningless; God never said anywhere prophecies given will have a multi purpose. Once again, FALSE! The prophecy in Isa 7:14 was specific to King Ahaz and only King Ahaz, making the writer of Matthew a liar for using it to point to the birth of the Jesus. Apparently you haven’t looked up almah and betulah.

    Isaiah also states the mother will call her child Immanuel and the angel told Mary to name the child the Jesus. Another fail!

    Isa 9 reference in Hebrew:

    For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

    Your King Jimmy:

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    They don’t say the same thing do they; one’s speaking in the past tense and the other the future. Which translation should I accept? The Hebrew bible speaks of God calling this child the “prince of peace.” If this is a reference to the Jesus, when was the government on his shoulder, when was he ever called “wonderful” or a “counselor”, is King Jimmy calling the Jesus, God and everlasting Father, how can the Jesus be a “prince” of peace and God and Father at the same time? I thought you believed the Jesus wasn’t divine let alone God.

    Isa 42:19, your servant Jesus is blind!

    Isa 61 isn’t about the Jesus, it’s Isaiah speaking about himself.

    Jesus was born of the Spirit without measure and by such he was able to follow all of God’s commands. God was able to perfect this man through His Spirit. The Spirit of God in this Son of Man is proof that righteousness and unrelenting faith in God can thus be accomplished in all men as what God can accomplish in one He can certainly accomplish in all. Where the Spirit is there is life and we see Jesus raised from the dead and promised to be a firstborn of many brethren. DT, do you believe in self-righteousness or in the works of God’s Spirit? Did giving the law to Israel cause righteousness or did it reveal man’s weaknesses where sin abounded? God can forgive the worlds sins by one man, because the one man is proof that it actually takes God’s Spirit dwelling in you to be righteous. Don’t you see, forgiveness comes to all because no other had been given the Spirit without measure as he did and it is the Spirit that actually causes righteousness? We are not self-righteous we are bound to sin and death, only God with His Spirit is the source to righteousness and life. Our faith in God and hope is in that we too will receive God’s Spirit as that of Jesus Christ. This is not some wicked deception, it is truth. The purpose of Christ is that our faith and hope be in God, that as Jesus is so we shall be, and as Jesus is, is one who has been born of God’s Spirit. This is what Paul teaches, but to you he is wicked as well You went from the darkness that is of mainstream Christianity to a new rabbit hole of darkness.

    How was Noah righteous? What did Abraham do to be called righteous and God’s friend? Why was Job blameless and upright? Enoch and Elijah never saw death, What made Daniel precious to God? David was called “blameless”, Zacharias and Elisabeth where both righteous before God (Luke)? (Didn’t Paul say no one was “righteous”, apparently he never read the Tanakh) Nowhere in these accounts does it speak of being filled with any “spirit” and becoming “righteous.” What did they do to be considered “righteous”, “blameless”, “upright”, and a “friend” AND not die?

    You say “forgiveness comes to all because no other had been given the spirit without measure…and it is the spirit that actually causes righteousness.” When God said to repent, turn from your sin, and your sin will be remembered no more, was this a lie? Since God gave simple instructions to be forgiven, why does anyone need the Jesus?

    You continue to say “the purpose of ‘Christ’ is that our faith and hope be in God”; because I’m incapable of having faith (knowing God will do what HE says) or placing my hope in God without the Jesus?

    Your last statement gave me a good chuckle, don’t judge much do you! Being judgmental seems to be an inerrant characteristic of christianity. The “new rabbit hole of darkness” you say I have gone into is Noahide, what God expects of the rest of the world. You really should look into it. Christianity, pick a flavor, is the darkness you speak of since it puts another between you and God.

    #946872
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi

    DT,

    YOU: You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?

    ME: I explained this to you thoroughly with scriptural examples, but your response was to ignore it and change the subject. God didn’t change his mind, you misinterpret that passage as I spoke to before. Did not the punishment given to Eve, God then cast upon her daughters after her who had not committed the sin she committed? I bore 2 children so I know for a fact I received a punishment directly because of another’s sin. Do you not have any concept of what it’s like to be a farmer? Thorns and thistles had only surrounded Adam and Eve’s home I suppose you want to tell me? In the day of judgment each will be judged according to themselves, not according to their father, but to say that God’s punishments given since Adam and Eve didn’t directly also effect their children is absurd.

    Further, Adam and Eve’s punishment was that they would die which meant they were given weak mortal flesh that could die one way or another, which that too was cast upon all of humanity, right? If you can acknowledge this truth then perhaps you could then see the truth in Jesus Christ.

    We were given curses, including weak mortal flesh that could die, because of another’s sin, but yet it’s then outrageous to think that we could receive grace and immortal flesh that cannot die because of another’s righteousness? It’s outrageous to think that the lesson is that God is the source, that we need His Spirit to be made righteous?

    Your explanation doesn’t answer the question. What does Adam and Eve have to do with God changing his mind and saying the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked. You’ve given zero passages that support this as God said the wicked are responsible for their wickedness. I haven’t read a single passage that said God changed his mind and now the innocent are responsible for other’s wickedness.

    Please provide the passage I have “misinterpreted” and offer an explanation as to why I have “misinterpreted” it. Fix my “misunderstanding.”

    Thankfully you used the correct term of “punishment” and not “curse” for what God said to Adam and Eve; God cursed the serpent and the ground, NOT either of them. God’s punishment to Eve was there would be an increase in pain during the pregnancy and birth, not that she went from no pain to having lots of pain. For Adam, he would work harder to produce food. HOWEVER, to equate the punishment given to Adam and Eve, and all of mankind, to what was said in Ex 20:5 “visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me” is rubbish!

    God never called what they did a sin, sin isn’t mentioned anywhere in the conversation to them. “Sin” is first mentioned in chapter four when God is speaking to Cain and says “If you do well will I not accept you? But if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. And its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” We can banter back and forth whether what Adam and Eve did was a sin, but is a waste of time; the important take away is what God said to Cain. Even though sin is waiting and desiring you, YOU are to rule over it, YOU have control over sin; not the other way around. Paul teaches sin controls you; and you wonder why I call him a liar?!!? Why aren’t you!!!

    Onto the Exodus passage, “visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.” Do a parallel of this verse, the Hebrew word “avon” is translated to “iniquity”; “avon” is intentional sins. When the father of said child commits intentional sins and the child continues in their father’s footsteps, they will also receive the same punishment as their father. It is in this sense God’s punishment will be passed down. How do you not see this?!?!? I know why you don’t see this; you rely on the translated words of the Hebrew scripture verses looking at the Hebrew for understanding.

    What I’ve discovered in the Tanakh (Torah, Writings) focuses on the here and now and our relationship with God and others; christianity is focused on the afterlife and because they are focused on the afterlife, they missed the here and now.

    Having been on the christian side of religion, if you aren’t of the christian faith, you’re judged; if you aren’t of a particular faith, your judged. Fear is used to “convert” people into the “faith.” You have the audacity (judge me) to say I’m in darkness for having been in mainstream christianity, except I walked away from “mainstream christianity” before I joined this site. What I didn’t do, was stop studying; I continued to dig deeper and didn’t become stagnate in religion because I knew there was more beyond what religion called truth. What’s beautiful, once you see the truth, you can’t unsee it; God is the center, God is the source, God doesn’t “need” anyone to represent HIM or work on HIS behalf. HE should be all you or anyone needs…period! Yahweh is our God. Yahweh is one. You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. Where’s your Jesus in this; how can you love God with all your heart, soul, might when your love, devotion, trust, and faith is in the Jesus?

     

    P.S.

    Concerning the “recovering of sight to the blind” I absolutely find it corruption “for the Messiah to extend on what Isaiah said” because he added to what Isaiah said, and Isaiah received his words from God. Just like what Eve did when she added “not to touch the fruit” when God only said to not eat of it.

    To say he was reading from a scroll that may have had this phrase in it; PLEASE find me a Hebrew translation that has “recovering of sight to the blind” in it! The Jesus went to a synagogue and was handed a scroll that would have been written in Hebrew. I have found ONE translation that actually has the phrase in it, the Septuagint, which most will call corrupt, and do you think the Jesus was reading from a Greek translation in a synagogue?!?!?

    #946873
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?

    The idea of the innocent bearing the guilt of the wicked is a key theme in the New Testament. It’s not about God changing His mind but rather a gradual revelation of His justice coupled with mercy. In the Old Testament, the sacrificial system, where innocent animals were offered for the sins of the people, foreshadowed the idea of substitutionary atonement. Prophetic passages like Isaiah 53 describe a suffering servant who would bear the sins of others, providing a foundation for this concept.

    Throughout scripture, God’s plan for atonement unfolds progressively. While Ezekiel 18:20 emphasizes personal responsibility for sin, the sacrificial system consistently points to the possibility of atonement through substitution. This reaches its culmination in the New Testament with the life and sacrifice of Jesus, where He, the innocent, willingly takes on the sins of humanity. The key here is that Jesus’ sacrifice is voluntary and part of God’s eternal plan, fulfilling what was foreshadowed in earlier scriptures.

    Rather than a change in God’s approach, this concept aligns justice and mercy in a unique way. Jesus’ sacrifice satisfies the need for justice—sin is punished—while at the same time offering grace, as the punishment is borne by another.

    You say the “key theme” of the NT is “the innocent bearing the guilt of the wicked” and to make this claim calls G-d a liar. Everywhere in the Tanakh it is said the guilty are held accountable for their guilt, not the other way around. Would you walk into a courtroom and tell the judge to let the murder go and you will serve his punishment? If not, why not? After all that’s the “key theme” of the NT. Since the Jesus did it for all of mankind, you couldn’t do it for a single person, why don’t you live by the same example and assume another’s guilt?

    The sacrificial system wasn’t entirely about a blood sacrifice since flour could be used for atonement. We also find incense and monetary donations would also atone. What about the city of Nineveh, all they did was cry out to G-d in a loud voice for forgiveness and G-d forgave them. David tells us a repentant heart is more desirable than blood. Blood isn’t required! A false teaching of christianity.

    Isa 53 isn’t about the Messiah.

    Progressive fulfillment is a man made idea to explain how the Jesus could be the messiah. Is “grace” or “mercy” a NT thing…hardly.

    Maybe you can explain why I need the Jesus when G-d said to repent, turn from your sin, and HE’LL remember it no more; but christianity says I need the Jesus to be forgiven. The Tanakh teaches, G-d is our salvation; if anyone can go directly to G-d, why does anyone need the Jesus? What is the purpose or function of the Jesus?

    You say, “Jesus’ sacrifice satisfies the need for justice—sin is punished—while at the same time offering grace, as the punishment is borne by another.” Can’t wait for Gene to chime in on this statement, because it sounds like the Jesus took on the punishment due us for our sin.

    #946877
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi desiretruth.

    I see you have a problem that I see many others have today. No matter what is put forth, people are stubborn like mules and refuse to change. But I am not responsible for decisions that only you can make. I simply put forth truth and if someone hears it they have ears and if they cannot hear it, they are deaf. If they cannot see truth, then they are blind. And here is the thing, God hides such things from the wicked.

    Now please do not be offended at my words unless your own conscience convicts you. As for me though, I will continue to point out that sacrifice is a big part of both testaments and there is a reason for it. That reason had to do with the salvation of mankind. If not, then there is no need for sacrifice in the Old Testament. The reason it is there is important.

    In my life I accept the sacrifice of God’s son as the atonement for my sin. You are free to reject the offer my friend. We are not robots. Ultimately, we all make decisions based on the condition of our own hearts and we are accountable for our own lives.

    In the Old Testament, the sacrifice of the Passover lamb is one of the most significant prefigurations of Christ’s sacrifice. During the original Passover, the Israelites were instructed to sacrifice a spotless lamb and smear its blood on their doorposts to protect their households from the angel of death. This event symbolised deliverance from slavery and death in Egypt. The New Testament directly connects this with Jesus, referring to Him as the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29) who takes away the sins of the world. Just as the blood of the Passover lamb saved the Israelites from death, the blood of Christ saves believers from eternal death and sin.

    Just as you go to pre-school then school or school then university, so it is that we have the Old Testament and then the New Testament or covenant.

    Listen, you reject the new, but the Old Testament was once the new. I wonder if you would have done the same.

    Do not be surprised about God having seasons for things. You see it in nature. We endure a winter and then spring comes and it is beautiful. Part of the appreciation of spring and summer is the fact that we have endured winter. The Old Testament is a school master, teacher, or babysitter that leads us to the messiah.

    And even after this age, there is another age to come and so on. Saying that a season 2000 years ago should last forever with no other season is not understanding the eternal nature and works of God.

    being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

    #946888
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer

    Hi desiretruth.

    I see you have a problem that I see many others have today. No matter what is put forth, people are stubborn like mules and refuse to change. But I am not responsible for decisions that only you can make. I simply put forth truth and if someone hears it they have ears and if they cannot hear it, they are deaf. If they cannot see truth, then they are blind. And here is the thing, God hides such things from the wicked.

    Whatever is put forth MUST BE truth and confirmed by God’s word (the Tanakh); to include me with those “afraid” of change would be incorrect as I walked away from “mainstream” christianity and then walked away from christianity entirely – don’t have an issue with “change.” Those who do have an issue with change are those who refuse to verify what they are told is truth.

    So you “put forth truth” where did you learn this truth? Your next statement is an eye catcher, so only those who agree with your version of “truth” are the one’s who have ears to hear and those who disagree with your “truth” are deaf?!!? You continue on with if they cannot see “your truth”, they are blind and end by calling them “wicked”; how much of what you study in the NT have you verified against the Tanakh? You want your “eyes opened”, start comparing all passages quoted in the NT that are from the Tanakh and ask if the NT is applying God’s words in the context they were originally written in. Like you said, “I am not responsible for decisions only you can make”; all I can do is point in a direction, you have to choose to move.

    I have given many comparative passages asking if they agree; great if they do; but if they don’t, why doesn’t that make them deceptive? If there is a single passage that doesn’t agree with the Tanakh, wouldn’t it be a lie? Wouldn’t the NT be corrupt and NOT the “infallible, inspired Word of G-d”?

    Compare:

    Matt 2:15 to Hosea 11:1; do they agree? Explain how if you believe they do.

    Matt 3:3 to Isa 40:3; do they agree? Explain how if you believe they do.

    Matt 1:23 to Isa 7:14; do they agree? Explain how if you believe they do.

    What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; where did God said to “hate your enemy.”

     

    The sacrifice of the Passover lamb is one of the most significant prefigurations of Christ’s sacrifice. During the original Passover, the Israelites were instructed to sacrifice a spotless lamb and smear its blood on their doorposts to protect their households from the angel of death. This event symbolized deliverance from slavery and death in Egypt. The New Testament directly connects this with Jesus, referring to Him as the “Lamb of God” (John 1:29) who takes away the sins of the world. Just as the blood of the Passover lamb saved the Israelites from death, the blood of Christ saves believers from eternal death and sin.

    Except the Passover lamb was never a “sin sacrifice”; AND they ate the Passover lamb. If the Jesus’ “sacrifice” is a fulfillment of this Passover lamb why did G-d tell the Israelite’s this sacrifice to HIM was an ordinance they were to observe forever? Didn’t the Jesus’ death also end the curse of the law? Also, explain why G-d said human sacrifice was detestable/an abomination to HIM; but in christianity G-d calls it acceptable for the Jesus to be a human sacrifice. I’m still waiting for when G-d, speaking thru the prophets, said the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin.

    #946895
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You say the “key theme” of the NT is “the innocent bearing the guilt of the wicked” and to make this claim calls G-d a liar. Everywhere in the Tanakh it is said the guilty are held accountable for their guilt, not the other way around. Would you walk into a courtroom and tell the judge to let the murder go and you will serve his punishment? If not, why not? After all that’s the “key theme” of the NT. Since the Jesus did it for all of mankind, you couldn’t do it for a single person, why don’t you live by the same example and assume another’s guilt?

    I am not sinless. Besides that, it is not hard to understand that another can pay your fine. God is merciful, but if you reject his mercy, then go ahead and pay your own fine. That is your choice.

    God through the Law installed the awareness of sin. If there is no penalty to driving too fast, then you will do it without thinking too much about it, despite risking your life. But when there is a law that states that you will get fined for travelling to fast, then you might get into line. But there are times you will drive too fast regardless, and yes, another can actually pay your fine.

    The Law wasn’t instated for a joke and neither was the sacrificial lamb. These are things that created a standard and a temporary payment for breaking the standard. This then leads us to be thankful for grace because with the Law that Moses gave and the understanding of covering sins, then we would not be that thankful for grace which Jesus Christ gave us. If there was no law and God just paid the fine in the background, then we would continue to speed / sin.

    #946896
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So you “put forth truth” where did you learn this truth? Your next statement is an eye catcher, so only those who agree with your version of “truth” are the one’s who have ears to hear and those who disagree with your “truth” are deaf?!!?

    I’m referring to scripture being true.

    #946897
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I’m still waiting for when G-d, speaking thru the prophets, said the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin.

    Consider this: if God had revealed that part of His plan in the way you think He should have, then Jesus Christ would never have been crucified. It’s as simple as that.

    but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory:  which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: but as it is written,

    Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not,
    And which entered not into the heart of man,
    Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.

    In hindsight, it becomes clear. But insisting it should have been obvious from the start only reveals the plan. Evil thought that by crucifying the light of the world, it would extinguish it. Instead, knowing their nature, God used this to His advantage, allowing them to proceed, fulfilling His law in the process.

    Imagine it like football, where you’re playing against a team with the greatest of all time (GOAT). If you’re evil, you might think injuring that player would give you a real chance to win. Naturally, evil acts this way, but they fell into a trap. God outwits all the schemes of the wicked.

    Similarly, today, all have been bought through the sacrifice that covers sin for all people. However, not everyone chooses to accept this. God respects our free will. If someone rejects God, that’s their decision. We are only responsible for our own soul in that regard. God won’t force anyone to accept the gift He offers. He also won’t force a person to live with him for eternity. If you reject God and his plan, He respects your choice. That is what love is about. It even allows for rejection of that love.

    #946898
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I’m still waiting for when G-d, speaking thru the prophets, said the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin.

    That’s fine. You will also be waiting for the exact day and date for the end of this world.

    #946899
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Matt 2:15 to Hosea 11:1; do they agree? Explain how if you believe they do.

    Carnality cannot see the deeper truths of scripture and wisdom. It is superficial. Jonah was in the belly of the big fish for 3 days and so the Son of Man was in the belly of the earth. Both rose from that hell.

    Jesus is also an embodiment of Israel. Both are called Son. Both exit Egypt. Both spend 40 Days in the Wilderness. A day being of different lengths here of course. Jesus gives His teachings, much like Moses receiving the Law on Mount Sinai.

    Fulfilling Israel’s Role: In the Old Testament, Israel was meant to be a light to the nations, showing the world who God is. However, Israel often fell short of this mission. Jesus perfectly fulfills what Israel was meant to do, being the obedient Son of God and bringing redemption to the world.

    Isaiah 53 describes a “suffering servant” who represents Israel but also points to an individual who would bear the sins of many. Early Christians understood this servant to be Jesus, who suffered and died to redeem not only Israel but the whole world.

    God called Israel for a specific purpose, a purpose that was ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The same can be said for Moses who was also called. It is written that both were spared when the death of all Hebrew male infants was ordered. Both spent time in the wilderness. Both delivered a covenant and interceded for Israel, acting as mediators between God and His people.

    God’s plan has unfolded over time, but there is still more to come. I don’t expect God to lay out every detail of His plan in advance so the kings and princes of this age and can attempt to stop Him. God may give us hints so that we can be prepared, but it would be unwise for God to reveal every step as you seem to expect. We live in an age where people demand instant answers, but God doesn’t conform to our demands or expectations. On the other hand, God prepares us in the right time.

    A key difference between us and God is our perspective on time. God is patient and exists beyond time as we understand it. When He says He will do something, it might take a thousand years to come to pass. In contrast, when we say we’re going to paint the roof, six months might already feel like too long, especially to our partners. Our impatience often highlights the contrast between God’s eternal timeline and our limited, immediate expectations.

    #946900
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; where did God said to “hate your enemy.”

    It does not say, “It is written”, but rather, “it hath been said”.

    #946901
    Keith
    Participant

    Actually Jesus warned the laodicean’s in revelation. He said basically if they are sitting on the fence he would vomit them out.

    As well at Matt 7:21-23( judgement scenario) He warns all professing to be Christian that if they work iniquity( practice a sin) he will tell them, Get away from me, i must confess i never even knew you. No matter what they think they did for him.

    Jesus is the word mentioned at John 1:1

    #946902
    Keith
    Participant

    Hi, The only ones getting mercy and grace are those who obey Jesus. Jesus teaches at John 15:10-14= To remain his friend and remain in his love one must obey him. The same that Jesus must obey his Father to remain in his love.

    Its simple to look and see if the ones taking the lead( ministers)  have Jesus by one single teaching= Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God= OT-NT– Thus without fail the ministers who have Jesus teach Every utterance from God to their flock. If ones teachers are not doing this( proving they obey Jesus) then they are these-2Cor 11:12-15. And it will be impossible for one to obey Jesus and remain in his love if one does not study Every utterance from God and learn them and apply them= obeying. That study= NEVER stops.

    #946903
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Keith……true, good post, and we must all remember also, Jesus said…..“the words I am telling you , are not “my” words, but the words of him who sent me”. Another words,  (God’s the fathers word’s )

    We all must all come to obey God the father just like Jesus did. God the Father must alway be our, “first love” , Jesus and everyone else our “second love” , as Jesus letter to the Ephesians at Ephesus shows, . Rev 2-4

    peace and love to you and yours Keith…….gene

    #946904
    Keith
    Participant

    A good day to you Gene, Its unfortunate that most of the religions claiming to be Christian do not listen to Jesus. At Matt 6:33, Jesus teaches-Keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his( Father) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)–Most of the religions teach to seek Jesus’ righteousness first-these fail to go through Jesus to get to the Father.( I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me)–The Father is ones destination to accomplish this daily=John 4:22-24. If only they would listen to Jesus.

    #946907
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless

    #946908
    Berean
    Participant

    We all must all come to obey God the father just like Jesus did. God the Father must alway be our, “first love” , Jesus and everyone else our “second love” , as Jesus letter to the Ephesians at Ephesus shows, . Rev 2-4

    Me

    Jesus second love ….?????

    I and the Father ARE ONE.

    IF WE LOVE THE FATHER, WE LOVE THE SON WITH THE SAME LOVE.

    🙏

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