John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,881 through 25,900 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946839
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Just a little recap.

    We had been discussing Isaiah 53, where you specifically gave me points for me to respond to and instead of replying back to my direct counter points you completely ignored them and went with, “There is only one thing that matters in your response and it has to do with whether the Jesus is the true Messiah or not and every response that doesn’t resolve this is pointless.” So I should have just ignored your previous points and questions, got it, lol.

    YOU:

    For your reading enjoyment here is what I posted originally posted concerning the Jesus being the true Messiah:

    He must be Jewish
    “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

    ME: You say that Jesus does not meet the requirements of the Messiah and you give me the list of the requirements established from the OT. 

    You later in another post from the one I provided above added that to be Jewish his mother needs to be Jewish. Jesus’s mother according to the NT was Jewish. By your own admission the first requirement you gave, Jesus indeed meets that criteria.

    Regarding Deut 17:15, this is the specific verse you gave of proof that the OT requires the Messiah to be a Jew. If you would have said the requirement of the Messiah is that he be of Israel this would have made sense, but you didn’t and nothing in this passage says that the Messiah must specifically be a Jew.

    Looks like you should have just left out your first requirement and the passage all together.

    #946840
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    The reason the passage about the Messiah being Jewish is included, is because it’s a requirement; why would I leave it out? This wasn’t suppose to be “gotcha” moment! Out of the “list”, the Jesus fulfill one item. The Messiah can’t miss a single requirement outlined in the Tanakh and still be called the Messiah and since he only met one, it disqualifies him as being the true Messiah; he MUST do all of them. To say he will accomplish what was prophesied when he returns is improvable. Nothing is written that says the Messiah was to come, do nothing, leave for a couple millennia, and return one day. Why do the Jews reject the Jesus as the Messiah; he never did what was prophesied and there is no verse that says the Messiah was to come twice.

    Rev 1:1 creates another problem for this returning of the Jesus,“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.” It been 2000 years; not really a “short” amount of time. To say time is irrelevant to God and it’s in God’s timing is only an excuse because the Jesus was speaking to a man who would have understood the events spoken in Revelation to actually mean these events were to take place “shortly”, meaning soon, not two millennia into the future. Let’s not forget the words of the Jesus in Matt 24:34 when he created another issue after saying, “Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.” The temple was destroyed during their generation and Jesus never returned. It’s was a lie!

    The major question remains, is the Jesus is the true Messiah; if he is, then why didn’t he accomplish ALL that was spoken of the Messiah while he was here; since he didn’t accomplish all that was prophesied, how can he claim to be the Messiah? It’s a tough pill to swallow, I struggled for months with what I started finding and if you would take the time and verify for yourself the things I have been writing…who knows what you’ll discover. Don’t let fear of the unknown control your life; begin verifying what is spoken of in the NT and ask if it actually aligns with what is written in the Tanakh. You really need to look into Noahide. I wish someone would have told me sooner; I wouldn’t have wasted 40 years of my life following an idol.

    Concerning Isa 53, I asked for patience as I was going to speak on that separately; but you keep demanding it. Sorry, I have a life outside this forum that requires my attention more. I will definitely be writing on this “soon”, as understood by the christian world.

    #946841
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Yes, of course Jesus would need to meet all of the requirements, not just one which is why I provided a response to each of the requirements that you gave.

    YOU: The reason the passage about the Messiah being Jewish is included, is because it’s a requirement; why would I leave it out?

    ME: The passage was Duet 17:15 and it speaks nothing about a requirement of the Messiah needing to be Jewish. The passage requires that the kings over Israel needed to be of Israel.

    I am wanting to hold you accountable for asserting a passage says something when it in fact absolutely does not.

     

    #946842
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: To say he will accomplish what was prophesied when he returns is improvable. Nothing is written that says the Messiah was to come, do nothing, leave for a couple millennia, and return one day.

    ME: Do nothing???????

    Do we say he did nothing? We believe through God, according to God’s will, plan and by the power of His Spirit, that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53 for starters.

    Are you listening to yourself? So thus it sounds like you ought not believe in any prophecy until it is fulfilled.

    #946843
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: The major question remains, is the Jesus is the true Messiah; if he is, then why didn’t he accomplish ALL that was spoken of the Messiah while he was here; since he didn’t accomplish all that was prophesied, how can he claim to be the Messiah? It’s a tough pill to swallow,

    ME: You are speaking nonsense. You are taking your own disbelief and projecting it onto others. Do you think I relate to any sort of tough pill to swallow here, that’s ridiculous. TIME you speak of, you speak earthly, you are being very carnally minded. To God one day for Him is a thousand years for us. You have a problem with Jesus going to sit at God’s right hand to prepare the place for us to which God has planned? The Messiah is going to sit on David’s throne to rule the world and bring peace and destroy all the wicked, you have a problem with the Messiah being prepared by God to do so?

    #946844
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Duet 17:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; — JESUS

    The Messiah that you believe has not yet come, he is not going to speak God’s word giving prophecy, speaking new truths? According to you, the Messiah can only speak God’s word that has been already given otherwise he should be seen as a liar, a false Messiah. Make it make sense DT.

    According to Isaiah 61 the Messiah is going to preach good tidings, he is going to speak to the coming day of vengeance of our God, he’s going to give prophecy of future events. When Jesus speaks prophecy, because that prophecy is not also in the OT, that makes him a liar and a false prophet? DT, how do you even believe one prophet to be true, how does this work for you exactly? Out of all the prophets you don’t think that the prophet whose also the promised Messiah might have some astonishing news to reveal? Like there is a second coming, where then the Day of the LORD is fulfilled and it will be at a time where people can see that the world is just like that in the days of Noah and is just like Sodom and Gomorrah. 

    #946854
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Nothing is written that says the Messiah was to come, do nothing, leave for a couple millennia, and return one day. Why do the Jews reject the Jesus as the Messiah; he never did what was prophesied and there is no verse that says the Messiah was to come twice.

    ME: Just to pull what I said all together in my last posts that was in reply to your statement above.

    You say he did nothing, does the NT say he did nothing? NO! He fulfilled Isaiah 61, having God’s Spirit come upon him, making him into the righteous servant, where he then went out and preached God’s word of salvation and God’s kingdom. Jesus, the righteous servant and a prophet, prophesied of the future, which was of his own death for the sins of others, a fulfillment of Isaiah 53, of his resurrection and of a second coming where he fulfills at that time giving judgment, destroying the wicked, giving the Spirit, restoring Israel and establishing world peace. The only way for your argument to work for you, “no verse that says the Messiah was to come twice”, is if you also argue that a prophets prophecy must have already been given and written, which then how does that work with you exactly?

     

    #946855
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    In the following “You” being myself and the “Me” being yourself

    Yes, of course Jesus would need to meet all of the requirements, not just one which is why I provided a response to each of the requirements that you gave.

    YOU: The reason the passage about the Messiah being Jewish is included, is because it’s a requirement; why would I leave it out?

    ME: The passage was Duet 17:15 and it speaks nothing about a requirement of the Messiah needing to be Jewish. The passage requires that the kings over Israel needed to be of Israel.

    I am wanting to hold you accountable for asserting a passage says something when it in fact absolutely does not,

    I’m really not following your “gotcha moment”; it’s like you’re saying the Israelite’s aren’t Jewish. To me it appears you’re playing pretend, intentional ignorance. Are the Israelite’s of the Tanakh Jewish or not? Again, Paul tells us there isn’t a difference between Jew or Gentile; was Paul speaking of a single tribe – HARDLY! He was speaking of the nation of Israel; but you already know this. You go tell a Jew they aren’t Jewish because they don’t live in Israel; besides, the passages states “who is not your brother” and it’s their Jewishness that connects them, wherever they are. Again READ Ezra 9,10!!

    Your last statement to hold me “accountable” is laughable! I’m still waiting for how Isa 7:14 is a fulfillment of the birth of the Jesus when it’s clearly NOT when read in context. The fact the writer uses the Isaiah passage as a prophecy pointing to the Jesus is deception, thus making the writer a liar and destroys the claim the NT is the “inerrant, inspired word of God” and repeating the “inspired” lie over and over again will never make it truth!

    #946856
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Hi DT,

    YOU: To say he will accomplish what was prophesied when he returns is improvable. Nothing is written that says the Messiah was to come, do nothing, leave for a couple millennia, and return one day.

    ME: Do nothing???????

    Do we say he did nothing? We believe through God, according to God’s will, plan and by the power of His Spirit, that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53 for starters.

    Are you listening to yourself? So thus it sounds like you ought not believe in any prophecy until it is fulfilled.

    If only Isa 53 was speaking of the Jesus…let’s try again.

    The “servant” is mentioned in Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 and it’s not a reference to a “messiah”, let alone the Jesus; but a reference to Jacob and Israel. Please explain how the servant changed from Jacob and Israel to the Jesus in 53, when in the chapters leading up to chapter 53 say the servant is Jacob and Israel?

    Who are the “witnesses” and “my servant” in Isa 43:10; start reading in verse 1.

    You like the “servant” of 42:1, but your “servant” is also blind verse 19.

    In Jer 30:10, Jacob is called “my servant.”

    In Jer 46:27&28 Jacob is called “my servant” again.

    Read Luke 1:54 “He has helped Israel his servant”, once again the servant is explicitly stated to be Israel.

    Why do you think I keep asking who is speaking where in Isa 52:13-53:12; knowing this helps with understanding the entire passage. In 52:13-15 the speaker is stating the servant will be elevated and this will “startle” many nations leaving the nations kings speechless. The kings then gain an “understanding” to the elevation of the servant. 52:15 says “kings shall shut their mouths For they shall see what has not been told them, and they shall consider with full attention what they have not heard.” The next response in 53:1 can only be the kings of nations asking who will believe what they came to understand (“our report”). Please explain how the “our” could possible be the disciples or the prophets speaking in 53:1; how does one go from shocked kings to disciples/prophets giving an unbelievable report? Do you begin reading a book in the middle?

    #946857
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Nothing is written that says the Messiah was to come, do nothing, leave for a couple millennia, and return one day. Why do the Jews reject the Jesus as the Messiah; he never did what was prophesied and there is no verse that says the Messiah was to come twice.

    ME: Just to pull what I said all together in my last posts that was in reply to your statement above.

    You say he did nothing, does the NT say he did nothing? NO! He fulfilled Isaiah 61, having God’s Spirit come upon him, making him into the righteous servant, where he then went out and preached God’s word of salvation and God’s kingdom. Jesus, the righteous servant and a prophet, prophesied of the future, which was of his own death for the sins of others, a fulfillment of Isaiah 53, of his resurrection and of a second coming where he fulfills at that time giving judgment, destroying the wicked, giving the Spirit, restoring Israel and establishing world peace. The only way for your argument to work for you, “no verse that says the Messiah was to come twice”, is if you also argue that a prophets prophecy must have already been given and written, which then how does that work with you exactly?

    In your previous post you quote Deut 18:18-19 and make the presumption it’s pointing to the Jesus; did you read 15-22, it’s speaking of future prophets God will be sending. In the same post you speak of a “second coming” and it being “astonishing news”, is that the way the Jewish people would have understood the writings of the prophets in Jesus’ day and would a messiah who comes twice have been the understanding prior to the Jesus?

    Isa 61:1-2 how do you get the Jesus or a Messiah reference when Isaiah is the one who is speaking? I would highly recommend reading the entire chapter and not two verses. This passage is quoted or should I say misquoted in Luke 4:18-19 by the Jesus. The original passage in Isaiah says nothing about “recovering of sight to the blind”; but Luke adds this in and this isn’t corruption!?!?!?

    Prophets were “commissioned” by God to deliver HIS message to the nation and the Jesus gave his supposed prophecies to primarily his disciples; but never to the nation.

    You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?

    You say the Jesus will restore Israel when he returns, is that all Jewish people or only those who believe in Jesus?

    One of these burning questions I’ve had is why will the Messiah provide a sin offering for himself and all the people? (Ezk 45:22) If the Jesus was sinless and is currently in heaven, what sin offering does he need to bring for himself?

    #946858
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…….You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?

    Jesus whole life was for the sins of others, meaning all of mankind, he “DEMONSTRATED” to USA all, what is required OF  us “ALL”  to have a right relationship with God the Father, it requires our whole being to love and obey God the Fathers Will, as Jesus did,  It is in that “SENSE”, he died for us all, not that he himself , Paid off anyone’s  sin debt,  we must all, “repent” and cease from signing, and come to live “Exactly” , As Jesus did, and that is what will takes away our sins. JESUS CLEARLY SAID …… > we are to “love the LORD our God with “ALL” our hearts, “ALL” our soul, “ALL” our minds, “ALL” our strength”.   
    Jesus came as a flesh human being to “DEMONSTRATE” TO US ALL WHAT IS “REQUIRED” OF US ALL.  SO IT IS IN THAT “SENSE” , HE DIED FOR ALL, get it? 

    Just as Paul said,  Eph 4:13……> “till we “all” come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “perfect” man, unto the measure of the stature of the,  “FULLNESS” of  CHRIST.  Get it?

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

    #946859
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    DT, you said…….You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?

    You may want to consult with Jodi as I copied and pasted her words. Stop shooting the messanger.

    Jesus whole life was for the sins of others, meaning all of mankind, he “DEMONSTRATED” to USA all, what is required OF us “ALL” to have a right relationship with God the Father, it requires our whole being to love and obey God the Fathers Will, as Jesus did, It is in that “SENSE”, he died for us all, not that he himself , Paid off anyone’s sin debt, we must all, “repent” and cease from signing, and come to live “Exactly” , As Jesus did, and that is what will takes away our sins. JESUS CLEARLY SAID …… > we are to “love the LORD our God with “ALL” our hearts, “ALL” our soul, “ALL” our minds, “ALL” our strength”.

    Jesus came as a flesh human being to “DEMONSTRATE” TO US ALL WHAT IS “REQUIRED” OF US ALL. SO IT IS IN THAT “SENSE” , HE DIED FOR ALL, get it?

    When you say “it requires our whole being to love and obey God the Fathers Will, as Jesus did, It is in that “SENSE”, he died for us all”; please explain why the death of the Jesus was required if all we are to do is “love and obey” God? How does death equate to “loving and obeying” God?

    You continue on, “we must all, “repent” and cease from signing, and come to live “Exactly” , As Jesus did, and that is what will takes away our sins.” Help me understand, we must repent and turn from our sins – I’m with you so far – but then there’s the “live exactly” as the Jesus. I don’t remember reading anything about living exactly like the Jesus and then God would take our sins away, you have a passage for this? Please also explain how we can live like the Jesus when “believers” in the Jesus haven’t been filled completely with the “holy spirit” as the Jesus had. Why didn’t God just “fill” all mankind with his spirit and then sin would be no more?

    Finally you say, “Jesus came as a flesh human” – so, he’s divine?!? What you’re saying doesn’t make sense, explain exactly what did the Jesus “DEMONSTRATE” that mankind was to follow? He told everyone to keep the law.

    Please make sense of it.

    #946860
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…….> “Finally you say, “Jesus came as a flesh human” – so, he’s divine?!? What you’re saying doesn’t make sense, explain exactly what did the Jesus “DEMONSTRATE” that mankind was to follow? He told everyone to keep the law.

    Please make sense of it.”

    Me…..How does being born as a flesh being make you Devine? I don’t believe Jesus was Devine at all, if that were the case he could not have “DEMONSTRATED” how human flesh could live perfectly .  He had to be “exactly” as we are, in ever sense, in order to demonstrate, to us all how to have a right relationship with God the Father, it is all based on “FAITH” in God, we must all come to that “exact same “FAITH” Jesus had, by the “EXACT SAME WAY the “man” Jesus did, through the working of the SPIRIT OF GOD, just as it says. ……> “for He (God) Works “IN” us both to “WILL” and do of “HIS” ( God’s), good pleasure”.

    That is what Jesus “DEMONSTRATED” to us “ALL”, WHAT “FAITH” IS REQUIRED  TO PLEASE GOD THE FATHER’S “WILL”.  we must all come to give up our lives (the way we live) to the “will” of God the Father, by the exact same spirit working in Jesus Christ our lord.

     Just as the apostle PAUL said..…>“till we “all” come in the unity of the “FAITH” , and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “PERFECT” man, unto the measure and of the stature of the, “FULLNESS” of Christ”.

    REMEMBER what Jesus said,  ….> ” he that will save “his life” (the way he lives) , will lose it, but he that will lose his life (the way he lives)  for my sake, will save it. ”

    Those are true words and applies to us all,  we must all come to be,  “exactly” like Jesus was, in our “FAITH”,  In God the Father , that’s what it takes to become a Joint heir with Jesus .  Hope this helped you better understand.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

    #946861
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    What specifically did the Jesus “demonstrate” that mankind was to follow? You keep saying the same thing over and over that he “demonstrated”, but never say what he did. One leads by example, what did he do?

    You keep saying we must have “faith” and “faith in God”; how do you understand “faith”, what does it mean to you? What was this “faith” the Jesus possessed that we don’t?

    You also speak of the Jesus demonstrating how “the human flesh can live perfectly.” Is God looking for perfection from mankind?

    #946862
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, Can’t believe your so ignorant that you ask such questions,  it only shows how much you truly do not know what scriptures say.

    1….”FAITH IS,  the substance of things hoped for, (how) by the “EVIDENCE” of things not seen.  You need to get your own “proof” that God does actually exist, and is involved in you life. Without that you have only “suppositions” gained by hear sayer, as it appears you now have, by your words.  You don’t seem to have proven God is actually in your life yet.

    2…..God in scripture says,   “Be you “HOLY” , because I am holy, be you “PERFECT” because I am PERFECT”. 

    DT, you seem to have very little retention of scriptures, why is that?

    peace and love to you and yours DT…….gene

    #946863
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: I’m really not following your “gotcha moment”; it’s like you’re saying the Israelite’s aren’t Jewish. To me it appears you’re playing pretend, intentional ignorance. Are the Israelite’s of the Tanakh Jewish or not? Again, Paul tells us there isn’t a difference between Jew or Gentile; was Paul speaking of a single tribe – HARDLY! He was speaking of the nation of Israel; but you already know this. You go tell a Jew they aren’t Jewish because they don’t live in Israel; besides, the passages states “who is not your brother” and it’s their Jewishness that connects them, wherever they are. Again READ Ezra 9,10!!

    ME: What are you talking about? I have said repeatedly that Jewish people are people of the tribe of Judah, to which is one tribe of the 12 tribes OF ISRAEL. This is not difficult, If you are of the tribe of Levi you are not Jewish/of the tribe of Judah, but both tribes of course are of Israel.

    The NT specifically speaks to Israel which represents those of the twelve tribes, the word is found 73 times and as well the word Jews is in the NT, used 244 times. The people of Israel that were around when Jesus preached and when Paul and others preached were mostly all Jews, there were some of the tribe of Benjamin, but all other tribes were not around, as previously stated these tribes became considered as lost. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were Jewish sects who gave influence to the Jewish people, Christ came and called them vipers and hypocrites. We see the word Jew used so much in the NT because that was exactly the tribe of people that were being preached to. Not all of Israel are Jews but all Jews are of Israel, as said this should not be difficult, seems though as you are trying to say that at some point Jews came to be equated as representing all the people of Israel and not just the people of one tribe of Israel. 

    Deuteronomy 17:15 is God telling Israel that their king needed to be of Israel, this does not at all say that the promised coming Messiah needed to be a Jew, it’s talking about kings first of all and the first two kings of Israel were not Jews, they were of the tribe of Benjamin. We are given that the Messiah was to be king over Israel, so according to this scripture he must be of Israel. As said, I am just wanting to hold you accountable for what you say a scripture says that it does not. If you want to call it as me trying to give a gotcha moment whatever, it’s just silly because Jesus’s mom according to the NT was a Jew, so it really doesn’t matter, it’s just the passage you used to support a requirement does not align with the requirement you gave.

    Concerning Isaiah 7, as I posted to you before, I have no problem with God giving in the OT a prophecy to events soon to take place that also foreshadow a second fulfillment to occur even later to which holds more significance. Isaiah 7 is just one and these only go to show how intelligent and powerful our God is in how He planned everything out. Isaiah 7 speaks of a child born and whose name will be called Immanuel, meaning God with us/or with us is God and who is not more of an Immanuel than the child born of Isaiah 9, to which I say is Jesus the anointed of God’s Spirit of Isaiah 42 and 61.

    Jesus was born of the Spirit without measure and by such he was able to follow all of God’s commands. God was able to perfect this man through His Spirit. The Spirit of God in this Son of Man is proof that righteousness and unrelenting faith in God can thus be accomplished in all men as what God can accomplish in one He can certainly accomplish in all. Where the Spirit is there is life and we see Jesus raised from the dead and promised to be a firstborn of many brethren.  DT, do you believe in self-righteousness or in the works of God’s Spirit? Did giving the law to Israel cause righteousness or did it reveal man’s weaknesses where sin abounded? God can forgive the worlds sins by one man, because the one man is proof that it actually takes God’s Spirit dwelling in you to be righteous. Don’t you see, forgiveness comes to all because no other had been given the Spirit without measure as he did and it is the Spirit that actually causes righteousness? We are not self-righteous we are bound to sin and death, only God with His Spirit is the source to righteousness and life. Our faith in God and hope is in that we too will receive God’s Spirit as that of Jesus Christ. This is not some wicked deception, it is truth. The purpose of Christ is that our faith and hope be in God, that as Jesus is so we shall be, and as Jesus is, is one who has been born of God’s Spirit. This is what Paul teaches, but to you he is wicked as well. You went from the darkness that is of mainstream Christianity to a new rabbit hole of darkness.

    #946864
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    In your previous post you quote Deut 18:18-19 and make the presumption it’s pointing to the Jesus; did you read 15-22, it’s speaking of future prophets God will be sending. In the same post you speak of a “second coming” and it being “astonishing news”, is that the way the Jewish people would have understood the writings of the prophets in Jesus’ day and would a messiah who comes twice have been the understanding prior to the Jesus?

    ME: Yes, of course the passage speaks to future prophets and Jesus according to the NT is himself a prophet, so Deuteronomy 18 is rightfully applied to him also in the NT in the book of Acts. This is just getting really stupid.

    He’s not just a prophet in the NT but the promised Messiah where listening to his words of God has a final consequence according to the OT and NT, where the Messiah thus holds an ultimate fulfillment to the passage in Deuteronomy. The prophet Moses set Israel free from slavery and the Messiah is a prophet that sets men free as well, free from sin and death through the promised Spirit.  There were many Jews that believed Jesus was the promised Messiah and then they thought he would become a king at that time but Jesus taught to them prophecy that him restoring Israel and becoming king would come later at a second coming. This is not against God’s word and plan from the OT it’s revealing more which is exactly what a prophet is to do. But your argument is that Jesus can’t be a prophet because apparently a prophet isn’t allowed to give prophecy, he’s only allowed to speak what has already been given.

    YOU: Isa 61:1-2 how do you get the Jesus or a Messiah reference when Isaiah is the one who is speaking? I would highly recommend reading the entire chapter and not two verses. This passage is quoted or should I say misquoted in Luke 4:18-19 by the Jesus. The original passage in Isaiah says nothing about “recovering of sight to the blind”; but Luke adds this in and this isn’t corruption!?!?!?

    ME: Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    This is Luke quoting Jesus’s words and you think it’s corruption for the Messiah to extend on what Isaiah said to include something he knew he was going to do through his anointing that he’d recover the sight of the blind, a specific act of how he’d take someone of a broken heart and make them well?  Or perhaps the very book Of Isaiah Jesus was reading from actually had that in it. But just listen to yourself, your saying it’s total corruption by Luke because he said that Jesus said he had been anointed of the Spirit and was sent to RESTORE THE EYES OF THE BLIND, which was both accomplished by Jesus literally and figuratively to which both took people of a broken heart and made them well as was prophesied.

    #946865
    Jodi
    Participant

    DT,

    YOU: You say the Jesus prophesied of his own death for the sins of others; I’ll ask again, when did God change his mind and say the innocent can take on the guilt of the wicked?

    ME: I explained this to you thoroughly with scriptural examples, but your response was to ignore it and change the subject. God didn’t change his mind, you misinterpret that passage as I spoke to before. Did not the punishment given to Eve, God then cast upon her daughters after her who had not committed the sin she committed? I bore 2 children so I know for a fact I received a punishment directly because of another’s sin. Do you not have any concept of what it’s like to be a farmer? Thorns and thistles had only surrounded Adam and Eve’s home I suppose you want to tell me? In the day of judgment each will be judged according to themselves, not according to their father, but to say that God’s punishments given since Adam and Eve didn’t directly also effect their children is absurd.

    Further, Adam and Eve’s punishment was that they would die which meant they were given weak mortal flesh that could die one way or another, which that too was cast upon all of humanity, right? If you can acknowledge this truth then perhaps you could then see the truth in Jesus Christ.

    We were given curses, including weak mortal flesh that could die, because of another’s sin, but yet it’s then outrageous to think that we could receive grace and immortal flesh that cannot die because of another’s righteousness? It’s outrageous to think that the lesson is that God is the source, that we need His Spirit to be made righteous?

     

    #946866
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @DT

    All that the Devil can do is to separate the Father from the Son because he knows that we need both of them. John 17:3 and Psalm 2

     

     

    #946867
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You can’t have one without the other.

    No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

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