John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,721 through 25,740 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946575
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Yes, I have read Isaiah 7 many times in it’s entirety.

    YOU: You go on to cite Isaiah 7 as being proof of the coming messiah.

    ME: I believe God planned dual fulfillments where passages in certain books are revealed by other biblical writers to also pertain to the promised Messiah. Matthew had the understanding that indeed Isaiah 7 was speaking about the promised Messiah, a sign for the house of David concerning a rightful king. Yes, I believe what Matthew said and as far as “believing what I was told”, I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven’t attended church or followed any pastor since I was 18, so it’s been 30 years. I read and decide what scripture says for myself. I have gone through every Christian faith though and studied their doctrines to see how it lines up with the sum of all scripture.

    After Jesus rose from the dead, ” beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27. So it seems that it was not readily known by folks all the scriptures that in fact did pertain to the Messiah. I don’t have a problem with this, God reveals things according to His own plan and purpose and Matthew as well as others were given revelation to share. Future representation/fulfillment to events from the past that are later revealed as such that then hold a greater significance to God’s plan and purpose is AWESOME, God is CLEVER and God is GREAT!!

     

     

    #946576
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said…….>”After Jesus rose from the dead, ” beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27. So it seems that it was not readily known by folks all the scriptures that in fact did pertain to the Messiah. I don’t have a problem with this, God reveals things according to His own plan and purpose and Matthew as well as others were given revelation to share. Future representation/fulfillment to events from the past that are later revealed as such that then hold a greater significance to God’s plan and purpose is AWESOME, God is CLEVER and God is GREAT!!”

    AMEN TO THAT , Jodi

    peace and love to you and your Jodi………..gene

     

    #946585
    Jodi
    Participant

    Thank you Gene!

    DT,

    Let me clarify my position regarding the conception of Jesus.

    Matthew tells us that Jesus is a biological son of Abraham and David through Joseph, we know this because Matthew specifically uses the words GENESIS (a book of one’s LINEAGE, ORIGIN) and the word GENEA (the successive members of a GENEALOGY).

    Mary, a young woman of marriageable age, was betrothed to Joseph and by Mary’s own words she had never been with a man. If you are a young woman of marriageable age from any tribe of Israel and you have sex before marriage you are to be taken in front of your fathers house and are to be stoned to death. An “almah” is to be a virgin period, for if you are a young woman and you are not a virgin, you are as good as dead and certainly not marriageable!

    Today, with man’s technology, virgins can become pregnant with the seed of a man of their choosing through in- vitro fertilization, but in Mary’s time the only way she could possibly conceive a biological son of Joseph as a virgin, is through the power of God’s Holy Spirit, which is exactly what scripture tells us. Similar to that which man can do now, is something most certainly God’s Spirit is able to accomplish, He did it in-vivo. DT, is a son born of artificial insemination biologically the son of the seed planted into the woman’s egg or is the son considered a son of the mechanism that planted the seed?

     

    #946586
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless

    #946587
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi all

    God bless

    #946589
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: Read Matthew 1 carefully! He is specifically stating that he is giving us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a son of Abraham and David.

    Me: Except Matthew states “18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.” Luke states, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.” The “holy spirit” is the one who impregnated Mary; could you please explain how exactly the “spirit” is “genetically” connected to David and Solomon. To be “genetically” connected to someone, one must be a descendant of them and while we can claim Joseph is “biologically” connected to Solomon; one cannot say the Jesus is because it was the spirit who fathered him. How does one ignore this!?!? It’s like the ‘Dance of the Cucumber’ from Veggie Tales…Dance, Dance, yah!

    You then pull back in christianities false interpretation of Isa 7:14 claiming it’s a “prophecy” of the coming messiah, when the prophecy is explicitly directed at King Ahaz. I even gave you the Hebrew to put into a translator and the translation says this maiden IS pregnant; Isaiah is speaking of a young woman standing there who is pregnant and somehow you get the Jesus out of this!?!?!? To get the Jesus you have to ignore what is actually happening in this chapter; which christianity does to make the Jesus work. In nothing you wrote did you substantiate your belief as being supported by what God spoke thru HIS prophets. All you have given is unprovable religious dogma.

    You then continue on with I Chr 17:11-13 but ignore I Chr 28:5-6 when David explicitly states who the “son” is and who will be a father to him. Face it, what you believe is a lie!

    By the way, I have NEVER said the Jesus was a “godman”; what I have stated was the Jesus is a “demigod” since his “conception” was of God and a mortal woman; eerily similar to what the Roman and Greek gods did with mortal women, but that’s considered ridiculous and false.

    #946590
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You say in post #946575 that you “believe” God planned dual fulfillment’s; BUT, when did God say any prophecy had a “dual purpose”? I’ve never read that anywhere in the Tanakh; sounds like it was created by man to justify their religion.

    #946591
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Please quote the passage where the curse from Jeremiah was lifted from Jeconiah. To use Zerubbabel as your “proof” the curse was lifted is utterly false because he never served as KING, he was appointed governor and thus was under the ruling king. God never said Jeconiah’s descendants would never succeed for HIS purpose; HE said they would never be king. How do I know this, because that’s what HE said thru Jeremiah “Thus says Yahweh: “Record this man as childless, a man who will not succeed in his days, for no man from his offspring will succeed him, sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.” I repeat, in none of this did God ever say Jeconiah’s descendants would never succeed in serving God’s purpose. How don’t we understand this?!? Beginning to question whether or not you or anyone have actually studied any of this because what your saying shows you haven’t when you make a statement like “Jeconiah did have offspring that prospered after all” or “doesn’t get more prosperous then that.” The punishment was none of Jeconiah’s descendants would ever sit on David’s throne and a huge problem is created by saying the Jesus is a descendant of Jechoniah and sits on the throne of David.

     

    You: Interesting enough, there are both Jews and Christians who also speak to the curse having been lifted. Jewish Literature speaks to the curse indeed having been lifted and even The Jewish Encyclopedia provides us with, “he repented of his sins which he had committed as king and he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king; he even became the ancestor of the Messiah.”

    Me: Where does God say this? Again, please cite the passage. I’m not interested in man’s thoughts, interpretations, or musings; what did God say. When and where did God say the “curse” was lifted?

    #946592
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    In your post #946585 you make an unprovable claim the spirit used “in vivo” fertilization to impregnate Mary. Is there any evidence, other than speculation, to support what you said?

    You also mentioned “‘almah’ is to be a virgin period”, I think you need to go back and research that again because you appear to have missed something. Please explain the difference between “almah” and “betulah.”

    #946593
    Jodi
    Participant

    DT,

    You: The “holy spirit” is the one who impregnated Mary; could you please explain how exactly the “spirit” is “genetically” connected to David and Solomon. To be “genetically” connected to someone, one must be a descendant of them and while we can claim Joseph is “biologically” connected to Solomon; one cannot say the Jesus is because it was the spirit who fathered him. How does one ignore this!?!?

    ME: You still do not understand. It is NOT the Spirit that Fathered Jesus, it is the Spirit by it’s power that impregnated Mary with a biological son of Joseph. Matthew clearly states through the specific words that he uses that he is giving us the genetic line that makes Jesus a bio son of Abraham and David where that line Matthew gives goes directly to… JOSEPH, which directly makes Jesus thus a bio son of Joseph.

    I would say that no one would doubt God’s Spirit is absolutely capable of causing a betrothed woman to become pregnant with her husband’s seed before they had came together. Right? Or are you going to tell me God’s Spirit doesn’t have that power? Do you also want to tell me that what Matthew actually meant was adoption, he just misspoke?

    #946594
    Jodi
    Participant

    DT,

    I know you don’t believe in a godman, that is obvious you’ve made that very clear,  but you seem to believe that the NT teaches in one and you debate with people on here that assert such to indeed be true. I am here to prove it doesn’t. Thought you’d have that level of insight.

     

    #946595
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    God says the curse is lifted by the written text that clearly spells out for you that it was.

    Was he recorded as childless? uh no very much the opposite.

    Did his offspring not prosper? uh no very much the opposite, his own grandson became a governor over Judah and God said unto him, ” “I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you”.

    But you want to say that the curse remained in effect when scripture gives you the opposite in even more examples than above, to which I already provided to you.

    DT, you deny scripture and present a God who won’t provide mercy unto a given curse, that’s just awful.

    Look up Exodus 13: 14.

    #946596
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi

    You: It is NOT the Spirit that Fathered Jesus, it is the Spirit by it’s power that impregnated Mary with a biological son of Joseph.

    Me: Are you saying the spirit took sperm from Joseph and planted it into Mary thru artificial insemination? Can you back that up with evidence? It sounds more like speculation and justification than a truth; in all my years in the church I have never heard this scenario.

    Also, why did Luke say the Jesus was the “supposed son” of Joseph; if the spirit “gave” Mary a biological son of Joseph, wouldn’t he be THE son of Joseph and not a supposed son? Hmmm!

    You still haven’t explained how Isa 7:14 is a “dual prophecy”; to just say it is, isn’t good enough, I want scriptural evidence. Why are there no other passage in the Tanakh that state the Messiah was to be “immaculately conceived” and born of a “virgin”?

    You: I would say that no one would doubt God’s Spirit is absolutely capable of causing a betrothed woman to become pregnant with her husband’s seed before they had came together.

    Me: I have never denied the power of God; HE opened wombs allowing women to become pregnant. What I keep asking is where did God say he was going to cause a woman to become pregnant without the involvement of a man; back up what you claim with God’s words and not man’s speculations.

     

    Never once have I said the Jesus was a godman nor have I ever claimed the NT teaches it; you seem to have me confused with Carmel. All I have ever said was the Jesus would be considered a demigod by definition since he was a product of God and a mortal woman and NOW you toss in a non-verifiable argument of artificial insemination…when does this madness end?!?!!?

    #946597
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    I know I have posted the Jeremiah passage before, but let’s do it again and see if we can clear up some confusion.

    30 Thus says Yahweh: “Record this man as childless, a man who will not succeed in his days, for no man from his offspring will succeed him, sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.”

    No where in the passage does it state Jeconiah was childless; in fact he’s recorded as having children HOWEVER, he was to be remembered as though he never did – “record this man childless.” Jeconiah never prospered on the throne of David as he only served as king for three months and 10 days before he was imprisoned for most of his life – “a man that shall not succeed in his days.” All his sons were born in captivity – “no man from his offspring will succeed him” and NONE sat on David’s throne, NONE ruled as king in Judah, and the line thru Jeconiah ended with him once he was imprisoned and his kingship was stripped away. If one is no longer a king, how can a descendants claim a right to the throne to be king? They can’t! To say the Jesus is of this line and is now “king” is pure stupidity because there are none from Jeconiah’s line who would ever become king and sit on David’s throne as the line ended with Jeconiah as God said. How do you not see this?!?!?

    Don’t know if you caught it or not, but nowhere in the passage did it say anything about God not using Jechoniah descendants for HIS purpose. This passage has to do with Jechoniah’s descendants no longer sitting on David’s throne and ruling in Judah and that’s it.

    When you stop at “prosper” in the KJV and apply it as though none of Jechoniah’s descendants will “prosper” in there lives, you falsely interpret what is being conveyed, miss the context of what was written, and end up with these false understandings.

    #946598
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Are you saying the spirit took sperm from Joseph and planted it into Mary thru artificial insemination? Can you back that up with evidence? It sounds more like speculation and justification than a truth; in all my years in the church I have never heard this scenario.

    ME: I can understand that this is something you’ve not heard of before.

    What is the speculation?

    Matthew gives us the genetic line to prove that Jesus is a bio son of Abraham and David and that line goes to Joseph who was betrothed to Mary. Before they came together she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. According to God Himself, His own design of genetics and what is needed to conceive a human being, the Spirit thus had to have provided Mary’s haploid cell with a haploid cell of Joseph.

    edit, taking out a question, which DT I see you did answer.

    The Spirit did it, there’s no speculation in that.

    We can certainly speculate how EXACTLY the Spirit performed it, however, what is also not speculative is that we know if Jesus is to be genetically the son of Abraham and David through Joseph as Matthew provides, the Spirit thus would have had to involve Joseph’s own genes, that’s a no brainer.

    #946599
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    30 Thus says Yahweh: “Record this man as childless, a man who will not succeed in his days, for no man from his offspring will succeed him, sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.”

    YOU: No where in the passage does it state Jeconiah was childless; in fact he’s recorded as having children HOWEVER, he was to be remembered as though he never did – “record this man childless.”

    ME: I never made the argument that the passage says he would be childless, my argument is that it says he was to be RECORDED childless but then he was indeed recorded as having children, curse lifted.

    How do you think that “RECORD this man as childless” can legitimately equate to “he was to be REMEMBERED as though he never did”?

    You’d think that if one is to be remembered as though they were childless, the first thing that you would do is to be sure NOT to record/write about his children.

    Just absurd DT

     

    #946600
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Me: Are you saying the spirit took sperm from Joseph and planted it into Mary thru artificial insemination? Can you back that up with evidence? It sounds more like speculation and justification than a truth; in all my years in the church I have never heard this scenario.

    You: I can understand that this is something you’ve not heard of before.

    Me: You think!!!!

    I can bank on the fact there are about 2 Billion other people who have never heard this either. What you have presented is a theory offering your rendition of the virgin birth story of the Jesus; but, to call it truth because it resonates to you is disingenuous. Remember, ALL theories remain theories until they are proven to be fact. Unless you can prove what you claim, it will be remain just a theory and can be added to all the other “explanations” to the virgin birth story. Please present every passage in the Tanakh that states the Messiah was to be born of a virgin the way the writer of Matthew claims…begin!

    Concerning Jeconiah, the best you can come up with is “It was written he was to be childless; yet, they record he had children. Therefore the “curse” was lifted.” How is it you don’t understand this passage is about his heirs not succeeding in sitting on the throne of David and NOTHING to do with him having children or not. His kingship was stripped away so he would no longer be a king, was told he was going to die in a foreign land, and what were any of his children going to have a claim to or be inline for as prisoners?

    If one is disposed of being king, what right will any of their descendants have to be king? If you would read any commentary on this passage it would confirm exactly what I am saying. Wake up!! The fact the writer of Matthew included Jeconiah in the lineage was a HUGE mistake; unless of course you identify as a “christian”, then it’s perfectly fine and don’t care what God said and can “interpret” it anyway you wish.

    By the way, still waiting for the passage Jeconiah asked for forgiveness and God forgave him.

    Also, still waiting for how the Jesus fulfilled what the Tanakh said the Messiah was to do when he arrives – post #946290 for your reference.

    #946601
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Jesus said “not’ me,……I am”, “the root and offspring of DAVID”,  You,  either believe him or not, I choose to believe him.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

     

    #946602
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You are free to believe whatever you want, makes no difference to me; but, can you prove the Jesus is the “root and offspring” of David and Solomon with the Tanakh? Can you prove the Jesus is the true Messiah (link 946290 when and how will the Jesus accomplish what is listed)?

    Again, Luke traces the Jesus’ lineage thru David’s son Nathan and not Solomon as God promised David – dead end and a lie. Matthew has Jeconiah listed in his lineage account and he was a king that was to be recorded as childless – dead end and a lie to claim this is where the Jesus came from. If a king doesn’t have any heirs, their “dynasty” ends; explain how the Jesus suddenly becomes a king after hundreds of years of no heirs to David’s throne?

    You believe in an idol, because you have placed someone or something (the cross) between you and God. It’s time to start verifying what you have been told is truth and stop relying on the thoughts of man and turn back to God.

    #946624
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT said…….You believe in an idol, because you have placed someone or something (the cross) between you and God. It’s time to start verifying what you have been told is truth and stop relying on the thoughts of man and turn back to God.

    Me…I have never left God the Father, DT…Please tell me how placing someone between me and God means I believe in “IDOLS”,  WHERE,  have I ever said I “worship Jesus” as my God, That’s what you were doing the last 40 years, not me.  I bow my knee to Jesus as a king , “to the glory of God”.  Not to the “Glory” of Jesus.  Jesus did not appoint “himself”, God the Father did, so I honor that appointment, so in what way am I an Idolator?
    Hope that helps you get the cob webs out of your brain.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

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