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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • June 19, 2024 at 9:45 pm#946546
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In the past there were things that took place as a shadow of things to come.

    Then the messiah came to fulfil many things spoken of and ritualised.

    Now we live in a time when we see the fulfilment and it is up to us to accept or reject these things.

    June 19, 2024 at 11:57 pm#946547
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    You: the messiah came to fulfil many things spoken of and ritualised.

    Me: I have asked over and over again if Jesus accomplished what the Tanakh said the Messiah was to do when he comes, and even provided references from the Tanakh asking if Jesus accomplished what was said. None have provided an answer.

    You: Now we live in a time when we see the fulfilment and it is up to us to accept or reject these things.

    Me: You have made an unverifiable, blanket statement; since we “live in a time” please provide examples and sources of what the Jesus has/is fulfilling and has/is accomplishing today that I must “accept or reject”?

    June 20, 2024 at 2:07 am#946548
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….Jesus himself said, there would be a future event when he would come in great honor and glory, when he would establish the Kingdom of God on this earth,  That time is soon to take place, Then what will you say, when he tells you ….“I have clearly said……”I am, the root and “offspring” of David”.  Will you deny those words in that day?

    I would like to see what will be your,  “arrogant ” response to him in that day.

    You have drawn your own conclusions , you have reject Jesus Christ as  the Messiah, you reject the New Testament teachings, you reject what  the Apostles  say, and epically what  the apostle Paul has said.
    You accuse us of not answering your questions , when in fact we have many times here, but what you really are saying is, that we have not answered your questions according to your new belief system, which goes against hundreds of scriptures we have all ready presented.  The burden of proof is on you not us, why because you simply take out all the scriptures that disagree with your interpretations, which includes nearly all the New Testament and much of the Old also. You simply are writing your own interpretations and forming your own conclusions, based on your New found understandings, which is exactly as the Jew’s, who reject Jesus Christ , now and then,  when they had him crucified.

    If you were back in the Day of Jesus, would you be one of them who were yelling, “let his blood be on our head, and the head of our children . And so it was, as history has proven, now what do you think will happen to those who taken their side at his return DT?.

    As I have said before to you, “you have thrown out the Baby with the wash”.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………..gene

     

     

    June 20, 2024 at 6:35 pm#946549
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    How can the Jesus be the “root and offspring of David” when he was born of the spirit? You do understand what the “seed” of someone is…right?? I have no issue in “denying” this claim as I understand the difference between being the “seed” of someone and “conceived of the spirit”…do you?

    You: You have drawn your own conclusions , you have reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah, you reject the New Testament teachings, you reject what the Apostles say, and epically what the apostle Paul has said.

    Me: My “conclusions” are based on what is written in the Tanakh, the Jesus ISN’T the Messiah as he never fulfilled what was written of the Messiah in the Tanakh, I reject the NT “teachings” because they don’t align with what God said in the Tanakh, the apostles said a lot of good stuff to live by and actually focused on following God’s commands, and Paul is just a liar, deceiver, and isn’t even an apostle according to Act 1:21-26.

    You: You accuse us of not answering your questions

    Me: When you don’t answer questions, it’s not an accusation; it’s a fact! You don’t answer my questions; for me to “accept” your answer, you have to actually answer the question; instead you use a deflection technique and move the goal post off the topic of discussion to something else you’re more “comfortable” with. You still haven’t answered who is speaking where in Isa 53, you still haven’t answered my Jesus lineage question, still haven’t answered how the Jesus stumped the Pharisees by quoting Ps 110:1 after proving the Psalm was written about David and not by David, no answer on Isa 7:14 being a prophecy of the birth of the Jesus when the prophecy was given to King Ahaz, still waiting for where/when God said the Messiah was to die for the “purpose of” and/or “because of” the sins of the world and to be this propitiation on behalf of mankind to appease HIS wrath against mankind, I gave you a list of what the true Messiah was to do when he arrives along with passages to support and your response was he was going to do all that when he returns which creates some major contradiction issues, you still haven’t commented on what Noahide is, you asked how Israel is “marred” more than anyone else and I explained how they are still persecuted today and no response, still haven’t told me what makes the Jesus the messiah, still haven’t answered how the Jesus will get it right the second time, still haven’t explained why God would require a “representative” that comes to HIM on your behalf when you don’t require it of your children, why do I have to “accept” the man Jesus or why one must go through a man to get to God, still haven’t explained why the NT is called the “word of God” when every denomination has their own interpretation of it – shouldn’t it all be the same understanding? These are the questions I can think of that are still waiting to be answered by YOU! This doesn’t include Jodi, Danny, Carmel, Nick, T3, or Proclaimer; these are the questions YOU have refused to answer. So I can accuse YOU of not answering my questions!

    Concerning “burden of proof”, I have already given the proofs to you; but you reject it in favor of your religion. What you need to do is verify what I have said, but you won’t out of fear. Thus you will remain in your religious rut.

    You: you simply take out all the scriptures that disagree with your interpretations…

    Me: What scriptures have I removed that I don’t agree with? All I have said, if the NT doesn’t align with the Tanakh, the NT is false. Can the Tanakh be false and the NT be true? Hmmm!

    You: …which includes nearly all the New Testament and much of the Old also.

    Me: The ignorance of this statement is profound; I reject the validity of the NT because it DOES NOT align with the Tanakh; I reject the validity of the NT because there are lies within its pages, I reject the validity of the NT because it twists the Tanakh – the actual words of God. To say I reject the Tanakh, makes you a fool! Everything I have been speaking on is based IN the Tanakh; it is YOU who have rejected God words!

    You: If you were back in the Day of Jesus

    Me: I don’t live in a world of “if”; I live in a world of reality. To use this kind of scenario is an act of desperation because it projects an unverifiable situation since I wasn’t there. However, I could safely conclude I wouldn’t have been there since I’m not Jewish and would have had zero skin in the game of wanting a Jew killed.

    June 22, 2024 at 1:18 am#946551
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….Being “born”  of Spirit,  is not saying “you are a Spirit” , it simply mean the Spirit is what generates you to life, we are all born by Spirit, all creation is Spiritually activated.  But Jesus plainly said “he was not a Spirit”.  “After his resurrection from the dead in-fact”.  But that doesn’t do you any good,  because you have rejected the New Testament, in you new found religion, right?

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

     

    June 22, 2024 at 4:11 am#946552
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Matt 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”

    Luke 1: “34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

    These are the words copied and pasted directly from your KJ translation. Are you NOT reading what I’m reading?!?!? First account, Mary was “found with child of the Holy Spirit” does this not mean she became pregnant by the holy spirit? Second account, Mary tells the angel she’s never been with a man; angel replies the holy spirit will come upon her and then she’ll get pregnant. Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and not a man. Again, how can the Jesus be the messiah when his daddy isn’t of the line of David and Solomon as God promised David? Mary even says she’s never been with a man in order to become pregnant and we are told Joseph “didn’t know her” until after the Jesus was born; so who is the Jesus’ daddy? We have an “immaculate conception” where Mary becomes pregnant by the spirit and NOT from the seed of a man, specifically one who is of the line of David and Solomon, and fails this simple requirement of being the the true Messiah.

     

    You: Being “born” of Spirit, is not saying “you are a Spirit” , it simply mean the Spirit is what generates you to life, we are all born by Spirit, all creation is Spiritually activated. But Jesus plainly said “he was not a Spirit”. “After his resurrection from the dead in-fact”.

    Me: Has nothing to do with who Jesus’ daddy is; Jesus’ birth was physical and you’re talking spiritual…irrelevant.

    You: But that doesn’t do you any good, because you have rejected the New Testament, in you new found religion, right?

    Me: But you accept the NT even after pointing out the inconsistencies within; the NT isn’t “inspired” of God, it’s “inspired” by man. When people fight over the meaning of a passage how can it be from God?

    When are you going to look into Noahide? It predates christianity by about 2700 years…nothing new about it.

    June 23, 2024 at 12:59 am#946553
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…..Yes there are variants in both the new testaments and the Old testaments, but that has to do with translation from one language to another.  But that does not mean you should throw out the entire texts, to fit your own conclusions.  I have shown you where Daniel predicted the birth date of the Messiah Jesus, and you reject it, no matter how many scholars say it does establish the date of his birth, and I showed you where even the Jew’s of Christ day knew when he was to be born; but it makes no difference with you, still go forward in denial, we have shown you where Jesus did fulfill what was written of him in Isiah , and again you refuse to see it. Claiming we haven’t answered your questions, we have shown you that when Jesus returns he will complete the rest of what has been written about him, but you still refuse to believe us. You also use the New Testament writing to try to justify your standings, by drawing false conclusions, as you do the Old Testament also, you have become  a true “smoke and mirrors”,  ‘’ preacher”,  and have “denied the Faith “.  It’s your life, so believe as you will, and I will believe as I believe , we will see who comes out ahead in the end, won’t we?

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene 

     

    June 25, 2024 at 3:01 am#946558
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Variants I have no issue with; changing what is said, I have an issue with. Twisting and misusing what is said, I have an issue with. I have given examples of all this corruption in your NT, and you still accept the lies as truth and chastise me saying I shouldn’t “throw out the entire text” but should accept both the truths and lies within the text. I will argue, if there is one lie within the writing of the NT can it be the true Word of God? Since God cannot lie and there are lies and deception within the pages of the NT, it’s not from God and I WILL “throw out the entire text.” I have proven the first chapter of the book of Hebrews is corrupt, yet you accept it as truth even though it’s filled with lies; because the first chapter is corrupt, I WILL “throw out the entire text.”

    You are still avoiding an explanation of how Isa 7:14 is a prophecy pointing to the Jesus, when it’s clearly speaking of a sign for King Ahaz. The writer of Matthew makes the claim it’s the fulfillment of the words spoken by Isaiah and is pointing to the birth of the Jesus; explain this discrepancy. This isn’t a “variant”, this is flat out corruption of God words.

    You believe the interpretations of scholars and reject the understanding of the people God spoke to. That’s stunning! You keep droning on about Daniel 9; yet, you can’t explain it. However, because you were told the “anointed one” spoken of, the KJV changed the test to read “The Messiah”, and removed punctuation to change the context, you believe it. You didn’t study this yourself and compare the Hebrew to the translated text; you took your translated text and said it was truth without verifying.

    You end with a childish statement of “we’ll see who’s right in the end.” If what I am saying is wrong, why are you having a difficult time answering my questions? This only confirms you have no idea why you believe what you believe and are peddling a religious idea. My questions should be easily answered and backed up with God’s word, if christianity were truth.

    I provided you with references of who the true Messiah was to be and what he is to do when he arrives and the best you come up with is Jesus will accomplish it when he returns. Jesus isn’t bringing peace to the world, he’s coming to judge it and not one word is mentioned in the NT about the Jesus bringing the Israelite’s back from exile.

    One verse you must explain is Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim; 5 afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek HaShem their G-d, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto HaShem and to His goodness in the end of days.

    Many days without a king and sacrifice and after this time Israel will return to God and it will be at the end. What does christianity teach? Not this!

    Or explain Micah chapter 4; how is it that God’s temple will be re-established and all people will stream to it? Did read anything about only those who “believe” in the Jesus.

    Why won’t you verify and study on your own, what are you afraid of; your religion being wrong?

    June 26, 2024 at 2:30 am#946559
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DESIRE TRUTH?…..YOUR desire is “your” truth, yours, and thats the problem.  I see both new and old testaments  as  mostly all comparable with each other if seen in the right context,  you on the other hand,  see opposites and total contradictions.  While I would grant you that there some differences in word translations,  I have proven that even many time here, but the general texts, old and new,  both agree with each other.

    I don’t simply start taking out whole books, and whole bibles to try to make it fit “my own views” .  Any one can see your not about correcting a point, but about trashing everything except what you think is expectable, Hardly an attribute of the Spirit of God

    If you reject Jesus as the true “messiah/ anointed one” of God, And reject Paul and the other apostles as true representatives of Jesus and God the Father, why are you even here?  What Jesus said is true.  “He that rejects him, has rejected not only him, but the one that sent him also”> so understanding this, you simply have no part, with him or us .  IMO.  Repent DT!

    I HAVE NO DESIRE TO EVEN DEBATE WITH ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE ,  JESUS IS THE TRUE MESSIAH,  SENT BY, GOD THE FATHER.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

    June 26, 2024 at 5:41 pm#946560
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Point made and confirmed; you have no idea why you believe what you believe and are simply following the flow of what others have told you.

    You: If you reject Jesus as the true “messiah/ anointed one” of God, And reject Paul and the other apostles as true representatives of Jesus and God the Father, why are you even here?

    Me: Why are you here; to have your belief system affirmed and/or argue for years over religious dogma? For over twenty years people have been arguing who the “word” is in John 1:1; sounds productive to me! You would think after centuries of arguing there would be a consensus; but there isn’t. You’ll argue over nothing, but when a real question is asked, you run for the hills. Paul doesn’t even meet the qualifications of an apostle according to Peter; but you believe Paul was greater than any of the disciples that actually walked with and were taught by the Jesus…that makes no sense. Wasn’t Peter the rock the church would be built on; yet Paul was “greater” in your eye’s and you follow him over Peter?!?!

    You: What Jesus said is true. “He that rejects him, has rejected not only him, but the one that sent him also” so understanding this, you simply have no part, with him or us.

    Me: I thought this was a place to present one thoughts and ideas?! What you’re really saying is because I don’t believe in the Jesus anymore, I’m not welcome. Same thing Danny and Jodi said. What I really think it is, is the questions are to much and you realize you have no response to them; and it scares you as I’m thinking outside the box you put God in.

    You: I HAVE NO DESIRE TO EVEN DEBATE WITH ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE ,  JESUS IS THE TRUE MESSIAH, SENT BY, GOD THE FATHER.

    Me: Why are you afraid to discuss an alternative? Prove the Jesus is the Messiah. I gave you a list of who the Messiah was to be and what he was to do from the Tanakh, words that came from God. Are you denying God’s words, calling them fallible?

    Why are you so afraid to verify anything? Grab a NT passage quoted from the Tanakh and see if it matches, see if it’s being applied in the same context, compare the Hebrew to the translated words of the modern “bible”; in short, STUDY what God said and set aside man’s interpretations. It will literally change you; it’s a difficult change, but it’s freeing to finally know God is a loving God and actually wants to interact with HIS creation and one doesn’t have to go thru a secondary to come before HIM…a real Dad.

    To sum up, your response is what I am finding to be typical of the christian community; you’re unable to answer the question asked and so you run away. You have no answer to why Matthew claims Isa 7:14 is a prophecy of the birth of Jesus, when it clearly isn’t…this is called a manipulation of God’s word…but you prefer to bury and ignore the lie.

    You: Any one can see your not about correcting a point, but about trashing everything except what you think is expectable, Hardly an attribute of the Spirit of God

    Me: Laughable!! I’m reading the plain words written in the Tanakh; it’s christianity that reads between the lines or changes the words to make christianity work. I have given multiple examples of it and you run from it. I AM “correcting a point.”

    You: If you reject Jesus as the true “messiah/ anointed one” of God

    Me: I do, because he didn’t do what God said he was to do. You can’t even prove that the Jesus is going to accomplish any of what God said “when he gets it right the second time.” Give me the NT passage where the Jesus is going to unit Israel and bring them back from captivity. I won’t hold my breath because the passage doesn’t exist in the NT. Jesus, according to the NT when he returns, is going to judge the world and you will either end up in heave or hell.

    Gene, it’s time to wake up. Your religion (christianity) cannot answer the questions I’m asking; because it can’t answer them, how can it be true? It is really that simple.

    June 27, 2024 at 2:23 am#946561
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….You said,”Wasn’t Peter the rock the church would be built on; yet Paul was “greater” in your eye’s and you follow him over Peter?!?!”
    Me……> , another “lie”, you  quote, which shows me clearly, you actually do not have the “Sprit of Truth’’,  abiding in you, or you would properly understand what Jesus actually was saying  there, and he was not  Saying, PETER  was the  “rock” the church would be built upon ,  what he meant was “The power of God“,  to “reveal “, in the mind of man, “the truth”, would be the “power”,  the church would be built upon> 

    No scripture says,  “Peter was the rock the church would built on”.  Your 40 yrs of church confusion which you went along with, only proves to me, you never had the “Spirit of truth” abiding, in you,  not then nor now it appears, I THOUGHT when you first came here you were being led by the spirit of truth to see “some” of the church errors, but it soon became apparent you were not being led by the spirit of truth after all, but the Spirit of error, I tried to counsel you to not throw out the baby with the wash, but being in ignorance and Arrogance , you have became unreachable, so dialogue with you is futile.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    June 27, 2024 at 6:27 pm#946562
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I highly recommend you read Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. In Greek “Peter” means “petros” and could you imagine it means “rock” (Strong’s 4074). Yet, you understand this passage to mean “The power of God”, to “reveal “, in the mind of man, “the truth”, that would be the “power”, the church would be built upon.” That is quite the reach into the mind and thoughts of the Jesus, 2000 years ago. If this is what the Jesus meant, why didn’t he say that? Once again we have the issue of each religion interpreting words to fit their religious world view and aren’t in agreement. Again, this is “God’s inspired Word”?!? How can anyone have a different understanding of “what God says”?

    You: I THOUGHT when you first came here you were being led by the spirit of truth to see “some” of the church errors

    Me: I did see the church errors when I first came and is the reason I joined; I was looking to get other people’s thoughts on the teachings in the church, to see if I was heading down the correct path. You, Jodi, and I were on the same path. The difference was I didn’t stop asking questions and didn’t stop studying. As I continued to study, more questions came up; causing even deeper studying and began verifying what was being said because something was off. I started looking up passages quoted from the Tanakh to see if the usage in the NT matched or if they were being used in the original context. To my surprise the writers of the NT twisted, took out of context, or simply butchered the text from the Tanakh. I have given you multiple examples of this corruption, but you ignore it and call me a liar. Tell me Gene, have you verified anything I have written or do you reject it because it goes against your religious beliefs? You like your rut because there’s a comfort in it.

    You: you have became unreachable, so dialogue with you is futile

    Me: I have asked you to show me where God said what you believe to be truth and you don’t or is it you’re unable? You can’t tell me why you believe what you believe; don’t you know why you believe what you believe? How do you “witness” to others if you can’t explain the why?

    You “counseled” me?? We must have a different understanding of what that means; to say I’m wrong all the time without a reason or offering a correction, isn’t counseling. Prove to me why you believe what you believe, support it with God actual word. If you can’t tell me and explain why I’m wrong, who’s really wrong?

    June 28, 2024 at 1:18 am#946564
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……It’s not just me alone that disagrees with you, but Jodi, T3, and nearly everyone here disagrees with you, haven’t you noticed that yet? They don’t want to dialog with you because no matter what scriptures they and I give you, you find or event a way around them. So it is indeed futile to discuss the issues with you.

    Take Isaiah for example you say that the suffering servant was Israel,  so tell us how was Israel “pierced for our transgressions” ?    The “OUR” there is Israel and he, Jesus was “pierced ” for or because of there transgressions. For the transgression of my people “ISREAL” was ‘HE” (JESUS). Affected.  Israel was never afflicted for anyone transgression, but for their own transgressions were they afflicted.

    As far as scriptures go there are many texts that can be taken from different views,  that is why to truly understand them you need the “spirit of truth” guiding your mind”. Those who are being guided by the SPIRIT do see it alike, but there are only a few that truly have the “Spirit (cognisity) of the truth” abiding “in” them, at this time.

    It is the Spirit that teaches us, buy, reveling the truth in our minds , just as it did Peter> that’s the “POWER” that builds the true church>  you would know that if you were of the truth DT. 

    Peace and love to you and yours DT………..gene

     

     

     

    June 28, 2024 at 4:46 pm#946565
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Do you see how you still haven’t answered my question concerning one verse, Isa 7:14; how is it a “prophecy” foretelling the birth of the Jesus as the writer of Matthew claims? Truthfully answer this one question and explain to me how the writer’s claim is truth and not a lie.

    I see things in black and white; there is no gray. This one verse is a make or break for the entire christian bible; it’s either truth or a lie. If there is one lie in the christian bible, it CANNOT be from God. PERIOD!!!

     

     

     

    June 28, 2024 at 7:16 pm#946566
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say

    Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon. 

     

    DT, TO START WITH,

    YOU JUST CONFIRMED HOW FEEBLE-MINDED PERSON SPIRITUALLY YOU ARE, WITH EVERY RESPECT, BY SAYING THAT GOD IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PRODUCE A MERE CREATURE, NEVER MIND HIS SON, WITHOUT THE USE OF THE SPERM AND THE OVUM, NEVER MIND, MAN AND WOMAN.

    YOUR REASONING ABOVE, IF IT IS PROPER TO CALL IT REASONING, IS THE CLEAREST EVIDENCE THAT YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN THE TRUE GOD OF ISRAEL, CREATOR OF ALL WHO IS OMNIPOTENT, ETC, ETC, ETC!

    READ THE SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER,

    Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me forth in the spirit of the Lord: and set me down in the midst of a plain that was

    full of bones.

     2And he led me about through them on every side: now they were very many upon the face of the plain, and they

    were exceeding dry.

     3And he said to me: Son of man, dost thou think these bones shall live? And I answered: O Lord God, thou knowest. 4And he said to me: Prophesy concerning these bones; and say to them: Ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5Thus saith the Lord God to these bones:

    Behold, I will send spirit into you,

    and you shall live. 6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to grow over you, and will cover you with skin:

    and I will give you spirit and you shall live,

    and you shall know that I am the Lord.

    And he said to me:

    Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O son of man, and say to the spirit:

    Thus saith the Lord God:

    Come, spirit, from the four winds,

    and blow upon these slain, and let them live again. 

    10And I prophesied as he had commanded me:

    and the spirit came into them, and they lived:

    and they stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

    Now answer please:

    DOES THIS EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    NOW READ THE NEXT VERSE:

    And he said to me: Son of man:

    All these bones are the house of Israel.. 

    WHEN WILL YOU LEARN THE TRUTH? DT.

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S WORK, IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL OF HIS WORK, EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO

    THE HUMAN BEING IN FLESH AND BLOOD!

    ADAM LIVED IN HIS FLESH AFTER HE SINNED,

    BUT FOR GOD HE WAS DEAD!

    JESUS, “THE WORD” GOD’S SPIRIT MADE FLESH, THE SECOND ADAM DIED ON THE CROSS, BUT FOR GOD,

    HE LIVED IN HIS SPIRIT THE HOLY GHOST IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH,

    HE LIVED GLORIFIED BOTH IN HIS SPIRIT AND IN HIS FLESH IN ONE 

    GLORIFIED BODY AS

    JESUS CHRIST, THE TRUE 

    HERE IT COMES SWALLOW IT DOWN INTO YOUR GUTTS!

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    1 John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal

     

    NOW LET’S START AND READ PLEASE:

    Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and of her,

    I WILL GIVE YOU A SON,…

    DID YOU GET THAT?

    GOD GAVE ABRAHAM A SON

    Genesis 18:10 And he said to him:

    I will return and come to thee at this time, life accompanying and Sara thy wife

    SHALL HAVE A SON…..

    SHOW ME WHERE IN SCRIPTURE WE READ THAT GOD RETURNED AND CAME TO ABRAHAM

    IS GOD ALSO A LIAR???

    Genesis 21:1 And the Lord VISITED SARAH

    WHERE IS ABRAHAM MENTIONED?

    HE WAS SUPPOSED TO RETURN AND COME TO ABRAHAM NO??? 

    KEEP ON READING:

    as he had promised:

    and FULFILLED  what he had spoken.

    2 And SHE CONCEIVED AND BORE A SON IN HER OLD AGE,

    AT THE TIME THAT GOD HAD FORETOLD HER.

    DT, I REPEAT:

    ONLY GOD, AND IN A PARTICULAR AND MYSTERIOUS WAY SARAH,

    ARE INVOLVED IN THE CONCEPTION AND BIRTH OF ISAAC!

    NEITHER ABRAHAM NOR A MERE HINT OF A SEXUAL ACT IS MENTIONED.

    I AM WAITING FOR YOUR FEEBLE SPIRITUAL PERCEPTION, WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    Genesis 18:11Now they were both old,

    WHERE NOT ALSO BOTH OLD WHEN ISHMAEL WAS CONCEIVED AND BORN???

    WHAT DOES “BOTH OLD” STAND FOR THEN?

    and far advanced in years,

    WHY EMPHATICALLY MENTIONED IN THE ABOVE??

    and it had ceased to be with Sara after the manner of women.

    12And she laughed secretly, saying: After I am GROWN OLD, and my lord is an OLD MAN,

    shall I give myself to PLEASURE?

    THUS, AGAIN IN THE ABOVE IS ASSERTED THAT BOTH ABRAM AND SARAI ARE INFERTILE, AND SEXUAL PLEASURE WAS DEAD. WELL HINTED OUT ALSO HEREUNDER BY PAUL,

    FOR YOU A LIAR:

    Romans 4:19 And he was not weak in faith;

    neither did he consider his own body

    NOW DEAD,

    whereas he was almost a hundred years old,

    nor THE DEAD womb of Sara.

    NOW TELL ME USING ONLY SCRIPTURES,

    WHAT CONVINCES YOU THEN, THAT ISAAC WAS BORN THROUGH A NORMAL SEXUAL LOVING ACT, AND ABRAHAM IS ISAAC’S BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    NOW TO MATTHEW ACCORDING TO YOU, ALSO A LIAR:

    Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father.

    For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

    WOULD YOU ACCEPT THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE THAT GOD CAN RAISE UP CHILDREN TO ABRAHAM OUT OF STONES,

    NEVER MIND, MAN, WOMAN, SEX, SPERM, AND OVUM?

     

    NOW ANSWER THIS ONE:

    ARE THE ABOVE CHILDREN NORMAL HUMANS, OR ALSO

    DEMIGODS???

    NOW, TO THIS SCRIPTURE PLEASE:

    Isaiah 66: 7 Before she was in labour,

    she brought forth;

    before her time came to be delivered,

    she brought forth a man-child.

    8Who hath ever heard such a thing?

    and who hath seen the like to this?

    ATTENTION NOW READ THE LAST VERSE:

    shall the earth bring forth in

    ONE DAY?

    NOW JUST READ IT AGAIN:

    Genesis 21:1 And the Lord VISITED SARA, as he had promised:

    and FULFILLED  what he had spoken.

    2 And SHE CONCEIVED AND BORE A SON IN HER OLD AGE,

    AT THE TIME THAT GOD HAD FORETOLD HER.

    The last verse is as clear as a crystal:

    AT THE TIME THAT GOD FORETOLD HER,

    PRECISELY, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    ON THE SAME DAY THAT GOD VISITED SARAH!

    DT, ISN’T THAT, WHAT SARAH EXPERIENCED???

    “IN ONE DAY”,

    WHEN GOD VISITED HER,

    AS HE HAD PROMISED, 

    FULFILLED WHAT HE HAD SPOKEN TO ABRAHAM, 

    AND “SARAH CONCEIVED AND BORE A SON” IN HER OLD AGE?

    IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE OUT OF NOWHERE!!!

    HERE THIS NOW:

    IN THE SAME WAY ABLE WAS BORN,

    IN THE BEGINNING OF CREATION,

    JESUS WAS ALSO BORN

    IN THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW CREATION!

    WHILE ISAAC WAS ALSO BORN

    IN THE BEGINNING OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT!

    THE BEGINNING OF REDEMPTION BY JESUS. SINCE ALL IN/BY HIM!!!

    DT, THREE BEGINNINGS ALL ACCOMPLISHED BY

     “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,  ALL IN/BY HIM!

    A PREEXISTED SPIRIT,  SIMPLY

    TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY!

    THE BEGINNING, THE FIRST, AND THE LAST OF ALL GOD’S WORK!

    Rev. 1:17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying:

    Fear not. I am the First and the Last,

    18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living forever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.

    NOW THE ONLY SCRIPTURE WE READ THAT IN A WAY TELLS US THAT GOD “RETURNED” AND “CAME” ENIGMATICALLY TO ABRAHAM IS PRECISELY

    ON ISAAC’S BIRTH, AND IN ISAAC HIMSELF:

    HOW AND IN WHAT WAY GOD CAME TO ABRAHAM IN ISAAC HIMSELF AND BECAME

    SARAH’S LAUGHTER!

    READ NOW HEREUNDER PLEASE:

    Genesis 21:6 And Sara said:

    God hath MADE “A LAUGHTER” for “ME”:

    WHAT WOULD YOU MAKE OUT OF SARAH’S DECLARATION THAT

    GOD MADE A LAUGHTER FOR HER,

    WHEN ISAAC WAS BORN AND GIVEN TO SARAH OUT OF NOWHERE WITHIN HER

    BARE HANDS???

    WHAT DID SARAH DO?

    I TELL YOU:

    WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT SARAH

    LAUGHED, LAUGHED, AND LAUGHED!

    LET’S READ A BIT MORE:

    Genesis 21:6…… whosoever shall HEAR OF IT will LAUGH WITH ME.

    I BET YOU ARE ALSO LAUGHING RIGHT NOW DT. NO???

    AND HOW!!!

    SPIRITUALLY FEEBLE MINDED!!! WITH EVERY RESPECT!!!

    CONSIDERING THE PAIN, THE BLOOD, AND GOD KNOWS WHAT THROUGHOUT THE MONTHS OF PREGNANCY AND BIRTH, EVERY NORMAL WOMAN OF THIS WORLD EXPERIENCED EVERY BIRTH THEY HAD.

    AREN’T YOU CONVINCED YET THAT ISAAC’S BIRTH WAS NOT IN ANY WAY,

    A NORMAL BIRTH THROUGH A SEXUAL LOVING ACT OF THIS MORTAL, CURSED, AND SATANIC WORLD? 

    UNLESS YOU ALSO ACCEPT THAT ALMIGHTY GOD,

    TO ESTABLISH HIS “GENUINE” ETERNAL COVENANT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO SATAN AND HIS CURSED AND FILTHY WAYS!!!

    WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!! WHY MAY I ASK:

    FIRST, THE ETERNAL COVENANT, FUNDAMENTALLY GOD’S GENUINE  PLAN FOR REDEMPTION,

    WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN GENUINELY DIVINE,

    AND SECOND,

    GOD WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN ALMIGHTY AT ALL WOULD HE?

    THE FACT THAT GOD ESTABLISHED HIS UNIQUE GENUINE ETERNAL COVENANT IN ISAAC’S CONCEPTION AND BIRTH, ATTENTION NOW PLEASE AGAIN:

    DESPITE SARAH’S PARTICIPATION, NEVERTHELESS, THROUGHOUT DIVINE, AGAIN BY:

     “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, A PREEXISTING SPIRIT, WHO MAINTAINED HIS PRIMACY AND BECAME 

    BOTH THE FIRSTBORN IN ISAAC ‘S SOUL AND HIS CREATOR ON HIS CONCEPTION. HERE IT COMES CHEW:

    THE GOD OF ISAAC! 

    AS MUCH AS HE ALSO WAS SPIRITUALLY THE FIRSTBORN IN ABRAM’S CONCEPTION AND BIRTH, IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB:

    HERE IT COMES AGAIN:

    THE GOD OF ABRAHAM!!!

    “BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN I AM”

    THE FIRST PATRIARCH!

    AS MUCH AS WELL HE ALSO WAS IN REBECCAS’ WOMB, CONCEIVED AND CREATED

    JACOB AND BECAME 

    THE TRUE ISRAEL! ATTENTION PLEASE:

    BOTH

    THE GOD OF JACOB and

    THE GOD OF ISRAEL!

    Now back to

    Isaiah 66:9 SHALL NOT I that make others to bring forth children,

    myself bring forth, saith the Lord?

    SHALL I, that give generation to others,

    be barren, saith the Lord thy God?

    NOW DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD, A SPIRIT,  IN ORDER TO FULFILL WHAT HE SAID ABOVE DID SO IN THE SAME WAY AS HUMANS DO, I MEAN

    THROUGH SEX?

    THROUGH MAN, WOMAN, AND THEIR FILTHY WAY, TO BRING FORTH CHILDREN?

    JUST READ WHAT GOD ASSERTED IN

    Isaiah 55: 8For my thoughts are not your thoughts:

     NOR YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, saith the Lord.

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon. 

    DT, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

    ISAAC, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE AVAILABLE, AND CONCERNING YOUR REASONING,

    SPECIFICALLY HAD NO BIOLOGICAL FATHER AS HUMANS HAVE THROUGH SEX.

    WHICH MEANS THAT SINCE THE ENTIRE JEWISH PEOPLE, “THE ISRAELITES”, ARE DESCENDANTS OF ISAAC, ARE NOT GENUINELY 100% HUMANS OF EARTH, THROUGH SEX, SATANIC IN THOSE DAYS, BUT, I REPEAT

    ACCORDING TO YOU,

    THEY ARE ALL LIKE JESUS,

    A TYPE OF DEMIGODS!!!

    THE FACT THAT THEY ARE AFTER ALL GOD’S ONLY UNIQUE ONE OF A KIND

    CHOSEN PEOPLE! NO?

    Genesis 17:19 And God said to Abraham: Sara thy wife shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name Isaac, and I will establish my covenant with him for a PERPERTUAL covenant, and with his seed after him.

    21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac,

    whom Sara shall bring forth to thee at this time in the next year.

    ISAAC:

    BOTH A SON OF GOD, SPIRITUALLY,

    IN ISAAC’S SOUL,

    OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    AND A SON OF SARAH,

    CARNALLY, IN ISAAC’S FLESH,

    OF “THE WORD” MADE FLESH ,

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN.

    WELL HINTED OUT IN

    John4:36 And HE THAT REAPETH  receiveth wages,

    and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting:

    that both HE THAT SOWETH, and, HE THAT REAPETH  may rejoice TOGETHER.

    TOGETHER ON JESUS’ DEATH IN JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    37 For in this is the saying true:

    That it is ONE MAN THAT SOWETH, and it is another that REPEATH.

    John 4:22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know;

    for SALVATION is of the Jews.

    SALVATION PRECISELY INITIATED PHYSICALLY ON

    THE CONCEPTION AND BIRTH OF ISAAC,

    THROUGHOUT DIVINE!

    IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, ALL IN/BY HIM:

    THE BEGINNING OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT.

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature:

     16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him. 

    17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

     18And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold the primacy: 

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell; 

    20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    June 29, 2024 at 5:47 am#946567
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    What does the Ezekiel passage of God raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David? Didn’t those “dry bones” once have a biological father? Clothing the bones in skin doesn’t make God their father, what kind of idiotic reasoning is this?!?!?

    How is physical sex an act of Satan? God created it so mankind would continue; in fact, God said “be fruitful and multiple.” So the physical act IS NOT of “Satan”, but a gift from God. Mankind is the only creature created that doesn’t have sex to only procreate; we have been gifted pleasure. Maybe instead of “spiritualizing” everything and using your carnal knowledge to explain away these “spiritual” thoughts, spend some time with what God said. Also, your obsession with “sex” is starting to concern me.

    Your “understanding”, if you want to call it that, of Isaac’s birth is pure foolishness. I will guarantee there isn’t one person who will say what you are claiming has any truth in it. NOT ONE!! So your “understanding” is NOT from the spirit, but from your own imagination.

    You quote a bunch of NT verses, which is irrelevant since we are trying to establish the veracity of the NT based on the Jesus being the Messiah. The question is, is the Jesus born of man or of the spirit? In nothing you said did you address this question, but went on this weak diatribe of “justifying” what you want to be truth, and said nothing.

    Is the Jesus the seed of David as God promised in II Samuel OR was the Jesus born of the spirit?

    July 3, 2024 at 4:21 am#946571
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I wondered what the latest conversation might be on here.

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say

    Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon.

    ME: I believe I have given my position on this to you before or at least I have presented it on this forum a number of times.

    Read Matthew 1 carefully! He is specifically stating that he is giving us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a son of Abraham and David. I honestly cannot see how anyone can dispute this. It’s the book of Jesus Christ’s lineage (Genesis) going from Abraham to Joseph. Matthew reiterates Jesus’s genetic lineage (genea) to Abraham and David again in verse 17.

    and yes, Mary conceived before her and Joseph came together where Matthew gives us the understanding that Isaiah 7 held prophecy concerning the coming Messiah, which that prophecy speaks to kingship over Israel being an heir of David and not a man from another tribe. So here we have yet again Matthew speaking to Jesus being biologically a son of David and thus also Abraham.

    The prophecy involved a conception and God said it was for a sign, God would have a direct hand in the conception to an heir on David’s throne. By the power of God’s Spirit Mary conceived a rightful heir to David’s throne.

    Jesus is a human being, and we all know full well that God established what is needed for conception of a human being, a male haploid cell fusing with a female haploid cell. According to Mathew’s book of Jesus’s genetic line, the haploid cell came from Joseph and Matthew also tells us the conception occurred through  the Holy Spirit.

    In Luke 1

    27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

    31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    the below prophecy directly speaks to the above

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    First you have a son of David and then God becomes a Father to this son. This is something that many on this forum like to completely ignore, just how they fully ignore we are given Jesus’s genetic line to David having come from Joseph and just as they like to ignore that the conception by God’s direct hand was for a sign unto the house of David. To turn and say the miraculous conception occurred for the purpose that Mary’s son be a godman is an outlandish lie against clear scripture. Such was invented to align Jesus with the likes of Greek and Roman gods to gain more converts, which more converts served well politically for Constantine.

    July 3, 2024 at 2:34 pm#946572
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: Read Matthew 1 carefully! He is specifically stating that he is giving us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a son of Abraham and David.

    Me: Except we have King Jechoniah listed in this “lineage”; one who God said was to be remembered as childless. This would mean no descendant if his would ever be king; yet, the writer of Matthew mistakenly puts him in. Therefore the tracing of this lineage back to Jechoniah takes the Jesus out of the picture as being the Messiah. NONE of the descendants of Jechoniah would ever be king. How does one dance around this? By ignoring it!

    You go on to cite Isaiah 7 as being proof of the coming messiah. Have you ever read the chapter in its entirety? There is NOTHING written that points to a “coming messiah” anywhere in this chapter. This birth spoken of was a sign to King Ahaz of Judah; where and how do you come up with it being a sign for the birth of the Jesus? You believe it points to the Jesus; because you were told it did. What you didn’t do was verify it. You smashed your “I Believe Button” and kept going; never questioning what you are told.

    Also, the word in Hebrew translated as “virgin” in verse 14 is “almah”, which means “young woman.” The Hebrew for a sexually pure young woman, one who has never been with a man, is “betulah” and ISN’T used in this verse. So to believe Isaiah is talking about one who is sexually pure is absolutely wrong. Let alone speaking of some “immaculate conception” seven centuries in the future.

    One can even prove the writer of Matthew misused Isa 7:14 as being a reference to the birth of the Jesus and show the corruption of the many translations in use today; copy and paste the Hebrew of verse 14 into a translator and it reveals how you, formerly me, and all others have been duped into believing a lie.

    Herbrew

    לכן יתן אדני הוא לכם אות הנה העלמה הרה וילדת בן וקראת שמו עמנו אל׃

    Translated for your reading enjoyment:

    “Therefore, may my Lord give you a sign: Behold, the maiden is pregnant and gives birth to a son, and you have called his name with us.”

    Who is the “you” the sign is given to, King Ahaz. Who is Isaiah speaking about, a “maiden.” Wait a moment, the Hebrew translated states this maiden IS currently pregnant; this woman was standing there with the king and Isaiah, and this prophecy has NOTHING to do with the conceiving of a child 700 years in the future.

    How much more evidence is needed to show Isa 7:14 has nothing to do with a prophecy of the birth of a messiah; this has EVERYTHING to do with a sign to King Ahaz that before the child knows the difference between good and evil the kingdoms coming against Judah will be wiped out. A promise God made to King Ahaz and was fulfilled when the Assyrian’s dispersed the Northern Kingdom and the two other kingdoms that joined together to fight Judah. All you have to do is read; AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREEEEEEEEE!!! Isn’t it awesome!!

    July 3, 2024 at 2:50 pm#946573
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Quickly covering your Luke citation, that is one BIG nope! You quote I Chron 17:11 as proof and all you’ve proven is you believe what you were told to believe. There are three passages you need to look up as they parallel each other and reveal who the “son” God is speaking of; sorry to break it to you, it’s not your Jesus – it’s Solomon.

    I Chron 17:1-15

    II Sam 7:1-16

    I Chron 28:1-10

    It doesn’t get any more clear than this. Besides you have to explain II Sam 7:13 He will build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he will be a son for me, whom I will punish when he does wrong, with a rod of men and with blows of the human beings. God says he will punish this son WHEN he does wrong (God knows this son is going to make mistakes); wasn’t the Jesus “perfect” and “sinless”? If it was actually a reference to the Jesus, wouldn’t God already know he was going to be “sinless”; so why did God say HE was going to punish him WHEN he does wrong?

    Verify what I am saying before you reject it; I Chron 28:5-7 proves this isn’t a prophecy pointing to the Jesus, but Solomon.

    Finally, you quote the Luke passage where the spirit of God will overshadow Mary, she will become pregnant, and  call it a “miraculous conception”; so is the Jesus a seed of David and Solomon or a creation of the spirit? If you say “seed” by a genealogical account, that would mean Joseph impregnated Mary and the writer is lying; if you say spirit Mary to become pregnant, then how is the Jesus of the “seed” (this is biological) of David and Solomon? Jesus now becomes a demigod by definition (God impregnating a mortal woman) and IS no different than the Greek and Roman gods.

    The answer to all this is really simple, the birth account given by Matthew and Luke can’t be true because Joseph wasn’t the one who impregnated Mary.

    July 4, 2024 at 3:44 am#946574
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Oh yes, the curse!

    “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.”

    Well it’s scripturally obvious to me anyway, that this curse was lifted,

    We can read all about Jeconiah’s grandson Zerubbabel in a number of OT books and other offspring of his are also spoken of (so he wasn’t rendered childless after all and there are even Babylonian tablets that list his sons).

    Zerubbabel was set free from Babylon where he returns and rules as a governor over Judah (so his offspring did have a ruling position in Judah after all).

    Additionally, God promised him, “You will succeed, not by military might or by your own strength, but by my Spirit. 7 Obstacles as great as mountains will disappear before you. You will rebuild the Temple, and as you put the last stone in place, the people will shout, ‘Beautiful, beautiful!’” (so Jeconiah did have offspring that prospered after all).

    Additionally, God had said to Jeconiah, “”As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off”” but later to his grandson Zerubbabel God said, “I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you” (doesn’t get more prosperous then that)!

    Further, though scripture says that Jeconiah would be taken captive and the curse says he would not prosper in his lifetime, he was later set free by Evil-merodach king of Babylon and this king set Jeconiah’s throne above the throne of the other kings and he ate with the king at his table for the rest of his life. I don’t know about you DT but to me, him going from being a captive to later sitting at the kings table for the rest of his life while being honored above all the other kings sounds like prospering (advancing, making progress) to me!

    Interesting enough, there are both Jews and Christians who also speak to the curse having been lifted.  Jewish Literature speaks to the curse indeed having been lifted and even The Jewish Encyclopedia provides us with, “he repented of his sins which he had committed as king and he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king; he even became the ancestor of the Messiah.”

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