John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,681 through 25,700 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #946493
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @DT

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    #946494
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Find me a passage in the Tanakh that says believing in the Messiah brings salvation.

    Why does someone not escaping prison suddenly bring another to the point of wanting to be “saved”? Did the jailer suddenly know what it meant to be “saved”? Instead of repeating sound bites or words on an inspirational poster, you need to be asking yourself is how can Jesus be the messiah when he isn’t of the seed of David as God said the Messiah would be.

    #946496
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @DT

    Eternity in Hell will be a long long time.

    #946497
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Not worried since God never spoke of a place of eternal torment. Christianity says God loves you very much, but if you’re not interested go to hell…forever!

    I see you didn’t find a passage in the Tanakh that says believing in the Messiah brings salvation…typical “I believe button” christian.

    Since you believe in a place of eternal torment, you need to explain Isa 66:23 it seems to fly in the face of your eternal damnation theory; I know you won’t, because you can’t. Here it is: “And this shall happen: From new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh shall come to bow in worship before me,” says Yahweh.” Seems “all flesh” and not just those who believe in the idol Jesus are going to worship God. Did you catch who said those words?

     

    #946498
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT

    Exodus 24: 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold👉 the blood of the covenant, 👈which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

    Jeremiah 31]

    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that👉 I will make a new covenant 👈with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    [33] But this shall
    be 👉 the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, 👉I will put my law👈 in their inward parts👈, and write it in their hearts;👈 and will be their God,👈 and they shall be👉 my people.
    [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for👉 I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.👈

    Mark 14:24…. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament/covenant which is shed for many.

    Mathew 26:28 …For this is my blood of the new testament/covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mark 14:24
    And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament/covenant, which is shed for many

    #946499
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..Mark and Matt…… is not saying Jesus’ life gave anyone eternal life or paid for their sins off for them,  what it is saying  is ,Jesus ” blood i.e  (life) was given and  shed to show us “how”,  to get our sins forgiven,  his life was the “example” of the,  “new Covenant” of God the Father,   at work in mankind.

    The whole concept of Jesus doing in our place is a “LIE”, we must all come to repentance ourselves. and live the life Jesus lived ourselves, by the same Holy Spirit in us also. Jesus “demonstrated” to us all how God the Father can deliver us all.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #946501
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @DT

    I choose Heaven!

    #946505
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Did God ever speak of heaven being a place you go when you die?

    As I have been reading the Tanakh it would seem God is speaking to his creation of the now, how we are to live with each other, but more importantly, how we are to serve God. Of course there are prophecies that deal with future human events; but, what I haven’t found are passages that go into great depth on the afterlife and what we should expect. So should our primary focus be on the afterlife or should it be on the here and now as we grow in our daily lives with God as our center and with each other? Christianity seems to spend a great deal of time focusing on the “there after” and the individual’s “eternal reward” verses God and the worship of HIM.

    Christianity has also created this system of good and evil; if you are “good” you get to go to heaven, but if you are “bad” you go to hell. Explain how this system fosters an environment that’s God centered? I see a system of fear; don’t believe in the Jesus, hell is your eternal future.

    Do yourself a service, go verify what you have been told is truth with what God said and see if it matches.

    #946531
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    Hey DT you still haven’t responded to my last message (who is the Word? #946498)

    #946532
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You copy and pasted a bunch of verses, offered zero explanation or what they mean to you, AND most importantly, you asked no question. Explain what exactly am I suppose to respond to? Your pointy fingers!??! I have said in the past “pointy fingers” do NOT explain what is going on in your mind and I cannot interpret them to know what your intent is. And you question why I haven’t responded to your post?!?

    Answer how the Jesus can be the messiah when he was born of the spirit and isn’t a biological descendant of David and Solomon.

    Answer why the writer of Matthew includes Jechoniah in the lineage of Jesus when he was said to be childless…BY GOD!!!

    Answer why the writer of Luke uses David’s son Nathan to get to the “messiah” when it was God who said it would be through Solomon.

    Answer why the writer of Matthew uses Isa 7:14 as a prophecy pointing to the birth of the Jesus when passage clearly has nothing to do with the coming messiah once it’s put into context with the surrounding verses.

    Explain why the writer of Matthew in 2:15 missuses Hosea 11:1 that clearly speaks of Israel being the “son”?

    Any comments on Hebrews chapter 1 that I eviscerated (945980) showing the chapter is filled with corruption and if the first chapter is this bad the rest can’t be any better and should never have been in your christian bible.

    Shall we talk on christianities corruption of Psalms 16, 22, and 110?

    Maybe you would like to dive into the twisting of the Jeremiah 31 passage you quoted.

    Then again this would require you to use words to explain why you believe what you believe, instead of communicating with symbols.

    #946533
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    And Moses took👉 the blood, and sprinkled it on the people,👈 and said, Behold👉 the blood of the covenant,👈 which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.(Exodus 24:8)

    Why the blood
    was sprinkled on the people by Moses?

    Quite simply, why sprinkled blood?

    What does this mean or symbolize?

    THE POINT IS THERE.

    I SAY NO MORE.

    #946534
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Let me point out, in nothing you wrote did you explain anything; you asked three questions and exclaimed “THE POINT IS THERE” as if by reading one verse I now have the full understanding of what you’re trying to convey. Has the intelligence of people really dropped this much? Do we not understand a conversation is a series of answers, questions, and explanations?

    Let’s take your question, “Why the blood was sprinkled on the people by Moses?” Why was the blood sprinkled on the people? One must go back a few verses and read what was happening prior; so let’s read the entire passage beginning in verse 1 to put verse 8 into context.

    1 And to Moses he said, “Go up to Yahweh—you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy from the elders of Israel—and you will worship at a distance.

    2 And Moses will come near to Yahweh, and they will not come near, and the people will not go up with him.”

    3 And Moses came, and he told the people all the words of Yahweh and all the regulations. And all the people answered with one voice, and they said, “All the words that Yahweh has spoken we will do.”

    4 And Moses wrote all the words of Yahweh, and he rose early in the morning, and he built an altar at the base of the mountain and set up twelve memorial stones for the twelve tribes of Israel.

    5 And he sent young men from the Israelite’s, and they offered burnt offerings, and they sacrificed sacrifices as fellowship offerings to Yahweh using bulls.

    6 And Moses took half of the blood, and he put it in bowls, and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.

    7 And he took the scroll of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people, and they said, “All that Yahweh has spoken we will do, and we will listen.”

    8 And Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and he said, “Look, the blood of the covenant that Yahweh has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

    First Moses and the others went up to God, only Moses was allowed to come before God and Moses then told the people what God spoke to him. The people responded saying they would do all God had spoken. Moses wrote down what God told him and the next day built an altar and 12 memorials/pillars representing the 12 tribes of Israel. Moses then sends out young men who offered “burnt offerings” and “fellowship/peace offerings” to God. Moses then takes this blood and sprinkles it on the altar. After which Moses reads from the book of the covenant and once again the people say they will do all God has spoken – did you catch the people say this twice. Then he sprinkles the people declaring God has made a covenant with them and they are to honor this covenant by doing what God spoke.

    I’m going to focus on the fellowship/peace offering, which is found in Lev 7:11-21 for your reading enjoyment. Reading the Leviticus passage you will discover there are three types of fellowship/peace offerings; each for a specific purpose and/or occasion. These include offerings of thanksgiving, offerings made in fulfillment of a vow, and voluntary/freewill offerings expressing one’s desire for fellowship with or to come closer to God.

    Interestingly when reading the Exodus and Leviticus passages one now has a better understanding of what is happening and one can reason from the offerings made – specifically the fellowship/peace offering – was a offering to signify a vow between God and the people and the people were going to do what God said. Did you catch the altar built to God was sprinkled first and then the people? Since the context of the passage is focused on an agreement between God and the people the sprinkling of blood would seem to point to a vow being made and not for atoning sins.

    To answer your question, Moses sprinkled the people because a vow had been made between God and them. Now why do you think Moses sprinkled blood on the people and what was “symbolic” in him doing so?

     

    #946535
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT   You Say:

    To answer your question, Moses sprinkled the people because a vow had been made between God and them. Now why do you think Moses sprinkled blood on the people and what was “symbolic” in him doing so?

    Me

    Thank you for your answer but why  is blood used here and other occasions in the OT.

    For me this blood symbolized the blood of Christ for the erasure of sins (ultimate goal)

     

    #946537
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You: For me this blood symbolized the blood of Christ for the erasure of sins (ultimate goal)

    Me: This is a fascinating response, your personal belief overrides the words written. Even though the sprinkling of the blood was to solidify a vow, a covenant between God and the Israelite’s and has nothing to do with atoning for anything, you read it as being symbolic for the atonement of sins. In other words you are molding God’s word to fit your belief system.

    Symbolizing is the same as interpreting, anyone can make anything mean whatever they want and comes from the mind of man and not from God or Spirit. To claim this Exodus passage is symbolic and points to the “erasure of sins” (injecting an idea that doesn’t exist) is an assault on God’s word. There is nothing messianic in this passage, no matter how deep in your heart-of-hearts you believe there is.

    And when did God say the blood shed by the messiah was to atone for sin?

    #946538
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT

    Why did Moses use blood?
    Everywhere in the OT, in the sanctuary service in particular, there is talk of animals being slaughtered and blood sprinkled on the veil…etc.
    We cannot put this aside, because there is a profound reason, and it is not a minor question, nor a human invention but a divine institution which certainly had to be abolished in times marked by prophecy.

     

    #946539
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….Blood is a metaphor for “life”, remember what Jesus said, ……> “whosoever will save his life will lose it, and whosoever loses his life for my sake, will save it”>.   We must all come to pour out “our lives” (the way we live), in obedience to God the Father, just as Jesus did, (blood is the symbol of life)  in scripture. Therefore it says …..> “there is no forgiveness of sin, without the shedding of blood”. Heb 9:22…….> ” AND ALMOST ALL THINGS, are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no “remission”.

    We must all get rid of “our lives” (the way we live) through the “REPENTANCE ” , given to us by God the Father, through his “Holy Spirit”, and live just  as Jesus did, in obedience to God the Father. As lambs of God we must all do what Jesus did, put our own Will to death, in obedience to God the Father. we must all come to say “not my will be done, but thy will be done”,  just like Jesus did.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #946540
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Moses used blood to seal the covenant between God and the Israelite’s and nothing more; to keep asking the same question isn’t going to change my response. The plain words written say only that. It’s christianity that wants there to be more to help support its idolatry; I say idolatry, because anything that comes between you and God IS idolatry…God said so!

    If blood is the only thing that can “atone” for sin, why were the people of Nineveh forgiven when they called out to God and turned from their wickedness – no blood, how can a 1/10 ephah of flour be used for a sin offering (Lev 5:11) – no blood, when David sinned by sleeping with Bathsheba the wife of Uriah, he cried out to God and was forgiven (II Sam 12:13) – no blood, why does God tell Jeremiah 36:3 “when the house of Judah hears all the disasters that I am planning to do to them, then they may turn back each one from his evil way, and I will forgive their guilt and their sin.” – no sacrificial blood mentioned, in Isaiah 55:7 “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” – no blood. Are you sensing a pattern? Blood isn’t required to be forgiven! Christianity has this absolutely wrong! Hebrews 9:22 is a lie; rip this book from your bible, it is filled with lies! Yet you “christians” embrace this book because the christology supports the idea of the Jesus messiah; HOWEVER, none will verify the Tanakh passages quoted in to see if they match (let alone if they are used in the correct context) out of fear it will destroy their system of beliefs.

    What does God require of his creation; read Ps 51:16-17 God doesn’t delight in burnt offerings, but a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart…nothing about blood. Psalm 51 by David is about him having slept with Bathsheba and crying out to God…a broken and repentant heart and guess what, NO BLOOD! It gets even better when reading Hosea 14:2 “Take words with you, and return to Yahweh. Tell him, “Forgive all our sins, and accept that which is good: so we offer our lips like bulls.” The use of words and asking for forgiveness is like a sacrificial bull. Again, NO BLOOD!!

    There is zero blood needed for God to forgive you. What christianity teaches about the blood sacrifice is a lie; how much more evidence do you need before you turn back to God?

    Let’s not forget the question you still won’t answer, when did God say the blood shed by the messiah was to atone for sin? Or, because the Jesus is the “sacrificial lamb”, when did God say human sacrifice was acceptable?

    #946541
    T3
    Participant

    @DT

    While Romans 3:21-23 is fairly well known and often quoted:

    “21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[a] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ”

    I think the answer to your many questions is revealed in the verses that follow it:

    “24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

    Too many Christians have been led to believe in some sort of false dichotomy between the OT and NT, as if God’s position on how anyone can be forgiven (or as most people will say, “saved”) have suddenly changed post-Jesus.  The reality, though, is that God has only ever forgiven anyone, whether OT or NT, (a.k.a.”saved them”) on the basis of that individual’s faith/trust/belief in God’s promise to be merciful and forgive them; moreover, the basis of God’sforgiveness was, is, and will always be the sacrifice that Jesus made “once for all” (Romans 6:10) when He gave His life/shed His blood as a “sacrifice of atonement” (Rom 3:24) for sin.

    In practical terms, this simply means that everyone “B.C.” (or OT, if you prefer) placed their faith in the promise that God would be merciful / forgive them, and since God knew that Jesus’ sacrifice was a future reality (from the standpoint of those who sinned “B.C.”) he withheld the deserved punishment/judgment for their sin (Romans 3:25-26).  This was true for Israelites, Ninevites, Babylonians, etc., and the evidence that they were trusting God’s promise (a.k.a. “faith”, v.25) was expressed through contrition, through a broken and repentant heart, through confessing their sin and turning back to God.  Furthermore, for the Israelites who were in a covenantal relationship with God, He asked them to keep the terms of that covenant as a sign to the world that the promise was for everyone.

    And so now for those of us who are “A.D.” (or NT) we not only have God’s promise that was first given through the nation of Israel, but we see how He had always planned on keeping that promise through Christ.  This is the righteousness that was revealed “apart from the Law” since by simply keeping the Law we are all still condemned (Romans 3:21).  Not only that, but what is the evidence that we are trusting in God / putting our “faith” in that promise?  Is it not contrition?  Brokenness and repentance?  Turning back to God?  Like I said, there is no dichotomy in God, no changing the rules post-Jesus, we are just living in the fulfillment of the promise rather than the promise alone,

    Indeed, just as Rom 3:23 stipulates that “all have sinned and fall short” – there is no difference – verse 24 declares that “all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (a.k.a. “forgiven” or “saved”) on the basis of what Jesus has accomplished through His death & resurrection – again, no difference.

    Jesus has always been the focal point of God’s plan to redeem mankind: His life, His death, His blood, His resurrection…all of it.  The faith of some looked forward, whereas ours looks backward.  They had no name to praise other than God’s holy name, no clear understanding of how God would keep His promise to be merciful and forgive, whereas we see the glory, the sacrifice, and the exultation of God’s only Son, Christ Jesus our Lord.  God gave the Israelites a sacrificial system that foreshadowed Jesus’ sacrifice (blood and sacrifice was a daily part of their experience, and the day of Atonement brought the substitutionary, sacrificial blood into focus every year), and now that “it is finished”, we don’t need to continually offer sacrifices because we can praise the name of the One who willingly offered Himself in our place:

    “18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.” – 1 Peter 1:18-21

    #946542
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T3……Good post. It is truly by “Faith”, in God the Father, and “IN”  Jesus Christ, we see that “FAITH” at work> 

    peace and love to you and yours T3……..gene

    #946543
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @T3

    Slightly confused with your response as it has nothing to do with our previous conversation; which addressed the heart of everything the NT is dependent upon, Jesus being the “messiah.” If the Jesus is the “messiah”, did he fulfill everything the Tanakh said the Messiah was to do? If the Jesus didn’t fulfill what the Tanakh said he was to do, then he isn’t the true “messiah” and nullifies the rest of the christian bible.

    The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore has no male biological connection to David and Solomon. With no biological connection to David and Solomon, a promise made by God to David, Jesus misses this “requirement” and cannot be the true Messiah. How can you or anyone continue to say the Jesus is the messiah when he isn’t a biological seed of David and Solomon? The flip side of this argument, if Jesus is biologically connected to David and Solomon, why did Matthew and Luke say Jesus was conceived of the spirit? It’s becoming more obvious everyday why no one addresses this issue or just simply ignores it.

    Matthew also claims the Jesus is the fulfillment of Isa 7:14; however, when this verse is read in context it has nothing to do with a “coming messiah.” Can you provide a passage where God said “a virgin birth” will be a “sign” of the Messiah? If you cannot, then what Matthew wrote is a lie and the NT is the “inspired Word of God”???

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