John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,381 through 25,400 (of 25,993 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #946048
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @proclaimer

    Hi Proclaimer,

    We need both YHWH and his Son Jesus Christ for salvation.
    John 10:27-30
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.

    Here we see that we are BOTH, in the hand of Jesus Christ and in the hand of his Father.
    Maybe you should talk more about that in your forum.
    Just a suggestion and a very important one.

    #946051
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Response to post 946020

    Is the “holy spirit” a separate person of God like trinitarians believe or is “holy” just a description of God’s spirit? After all in the Tanakh “holy Spirit” is said three times and every time it’s said, “holy” is an adjective describing God’s “Spirit.” You say you don’t believe in the trinity, yet you use the trinitarian language all the time and create the “holy spirit” as a separate being from God.

    You still quote from the liar Paul?!?! So you are okay with Paul saying he robbed the early church, lying to Galatia about what was spoken at this council of Jerusalem, teaching Corinth it’s okay to eat food sacrificed to idols (even though it was determined not to), hates the Torah, whines to Timothy about all of Asia rejecting him (wonder why), claims to be the 13th apostle (only 12 per Jesus), only he receives “special revelations” (one else, just him), continually says “I’m telling the truth” (this doesn’t raise any concerns). Why do I reject the “teachings” of Paul?!? Why can’t I say the NT is the inspired word of God? How much more proof do you need? I guess the larger question is, will you continue to gloss over the obvious or open your eyes?

    Anyways, let’s look again at Isa 53. In verse 1 this “our” is giving a report? “Our” is plural, so the speaker is representing “multiple people” and obviously can’t be referencing a singular Isaiah. Who is this “our” and what is this “report” no one will believe?

    Verse 2, the KJV says “he shall grow up before him”; explain why every other translation doesn’t use the future tense, but uses the past tense “he grew up”? Why does the KJV change the tense to be a future event, instead of a past event? So is Jesus before Isaiah?

    Verse 3, When was Jesus ever said to be “a man of sorrows” in the NT and “acquainted with diseases/illness/sickness/grief”. KJV uses “grief” and the others are similar in meaning, what does “grief” here mean? Also, who hid their face from Jesus and considered him insignificant? The religious leaders thought Jesus to be a “threat” due to his rise in popularity.

    Verse 4, “he bore our sickness and carried our suffering”; again, this “our” keeps coming up – who is this “our” that’s speaking?!? And the person they’re speaking of is plagued and afflicted by God. Was it God who afflicted Jesus, causing him all the pain, suffering, and sickness described in these verses? God killed his “only begotten” son so mankind would have a way to be saved; because the way God “saved” is somehow flawed and didn’t work anymore? Remember, it’s God, the Almighty, creator of everything and everyone we are speaking of. You must have a small God who requires a “helper.”

    I took the Hebrew text of verse 4 and translated it to English; a little different than the KJV:

    “Indeed we fell ill, he bore and from our pains they suffered, and we thought him afflicted by the blow of God and tortured him.” In the last part, we (“our” from verse 1) thought him (suppose to be Jesus) afflicted by God and tortured him. The gospels teach the religious leaders hated Jesus and wanted him gone, not that they thought he was afflicted by God and tortured him; so the “our” can’t be them. Who is this “our”?

    Verse 5, “He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds, crushed because of our sins; he endured punishment that made us well; because of his wounds we have been healed..” Again we have this “our”, “us”, and “we” (this is the same “our” from verse 1 speaking for the many) and of course “he.” Whose rebellious deeds and sins wounded and crushed whom? But, “he” endures punishment and makes “us” well; how was Jesus punished and how does one being punished make anyone “well”, let alone being whipped heal anyone? Explain!

    There is a lot going on here with many questions asked and explanations needed; so I will stop here. Explain what you believe and why you believe this chapter speaks of Jesus and the surrounding ones don’t.

    You asked “Don’t you want to believe in him?” Believe in whom, Jesus? Why would I believe in a man? The Tanakh tells me the Messiah is a descendant of David, yet Jesus was conceived of the spirit according to Matthew and Luke and NOT of the seed of David. Explain! Matthew lies about Isa 7:14; read the chapter and tell me it speaks of a the Messiah, let a lone Jesus.

    #946052
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Response to post 946034

    If you have been reading my comments to others, you would know my stance on Paul. I have given references/passages showing how Paul is deceptive; yet, not a word to the contrary.

    You keep bringing up the “law doesn’t justify”, where in the Tanakh does it state anyone is justified by the Law given to Moses; God says to keep and do them. In Gen 26:5, Abraham obeyed God and kept HIS charge, HIS commandments, HIS statutes, and HIS laws. So what did Abraham know, keep, and do (long before God gave Moses the “613 laws”) that made him righteous before God?

    What was the purpose of the laws given to Moses if all they are is “forced compliance”? Why would God tell the people these “laws” are not hard to follow? Have you read any of the 613 Laws? What of these following commands given to “the evil hearted ISRAELITES” do you consider “forced compliance”:

    – Make a guard rail around flat roofs—Deuteronomy 22:8 (how dare anyone make a structure safe)

    – Not to have homosexual sexual relations—Leviticus 18:22 (God calls this an abomination)

    – Not to crossbreed animals—Leviticus 19:19 (self explanatory, but God is forcing you not to)

    – To leave a corner of the field uncut for the poor—Leviticus 19:10 (forced compliance??!?!?)

    – To give charity—Deuteronomy 15:11 (another taking care of those who fall on rough times)

    – Not to stand idly by if someone’s life is in danger—Leviticus 19:16 (how dare any protect the weak)

    Do you tithe, that’s one of the 613 “laws” given to Moses; because you do “tithe”, this “law” isn’t “forced compliance” for you, but to the Jew before the Jesus it is? Remember, the tithe was given to the Levitical priests because they didn’t have an inheritance; is that whom you are giving it, because that is what the “law” says? These 613 “laws” were given to whom (“10 Commandments” are also part of the 613) – the Jew or the world? I’ll help you, the Laws were given to the Jew; what does God expect of the none Jew? Is the none Jew to worship God by worshiping/believing in/having faith in a man?

    Your belief in “forced compliance” of the Law is a lie; the Law is a guideline of how one is to worship God and how one is to treat each other. Each individual wasn’t responsible to keep each of the 613 Laws at all times; there were laws for men and women, laws the priests were to follow, laws of responsibility toward others, laws on the way to treat others; Paul lies when he said they were only to point out sin. How christianity has been dooped!

    You: The definite article, “the” was added to the text, look it up.

    Me: I tried to and didn’t find anything, please cite your source.

    You: for all the law is fulfilled in one word, “you shall love our neighbor as yourself.”

    Me: Funny, didn’t Jesus give two laws. Did you notice Paul said “all the law (commands) is fulfilled in one word” and he didn’t include the most important “law”, to love God with all of your being. Are you waking up!??!

    You also need to explain Rev 22:14 “Blessed are they that do his commandments (aka “laws”), that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” John states the commandments bring life and you claim they’re irrelevant.

    #946053
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    It doesn’t matter if the Holy Spirit is a person or not….The point in Isaiah 53 is that a sin-bearer is mentioned…
    Without him we wouldn’t even be here to talk about it.

     

    #946054
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,
    You: It doesn’t matter if the Holy Spirit is a person or not…
    Me: It does if you are looking for truth. Apparently the truth isn’t a concern for you.

    Thank you for your perfect none response, proving you have know idea why you believe what you believe. Remain in your slumber of religion and continue to ignore the obvious.

    #946055
    Berean
    Participant

    Excuse me but the subject is not about the Holy Spirit but about the sin-bearer in Isaiah 53.

    But he was wounded for our transgressions👈, he was bruised for our iniquities: 👈 the chastisement of our peace was👉 upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid 👉on him the iniquity of us all.👈

     

     

    #946056
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You’re excused!

    The holy spirit was a brief section, then I moved onto the great liar of the NT because you quoted him, and the part you were suppose to focus on was after that – Isa 53:1-5. If you would have read what I wrote in its entirety you would have picked up on this portion where I painstakingly dissected verses 1-5 and asked a series of questions that you didn’t bother to answer. This tells me you have no idea what you believe or why, have only a surface understanding of what is written, and you believe only what your religion told you to believe.

    You respond with pointy fingers; do you believe pointing to a phrase will articulate your understanding and make everything clearer. Responding to the questions with your own thoughts on why you believe what you believe does convey a level of understanding, thus creating dialog.

    #946057
    Berean
    Participant

    The sharp fingers show you THE ONE WHO WANTS TO SAVE YOU, why resist?

    #946058
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    But pointy fingers don’t explain anything do they!

    Judging by your lack of answers to the questions asked, you really don’t know what you believe or why, which is sad. How are you bringing anyone to the Jesus if you can’t answer questions asked and explain the why? You seem like the typical uneducated christian who parrots all they hear; limited by their belief system in their understanding.

    I started digging into the writings of Paul and discovered he is a liar. I started verifying verses quoted from the Tanakh in the Greek Testament (NT) and they don’t match. I started comparing the messiahs of the Tanakh and Greek Testament and found they differed; who am I to believe, the Jesus of the Greek Testament and a liar or God speaking through HIS prophets? Read Jonah, but pay very close to the last few verses…enlightening!

    Maybe I should disregard everything I have learned over these last several months and go back to smashing the “I believe button” of christianity and shut up; and be like every other christian arguing over what they believe the Greek Testament says. Except, I want to know what God said.

    Good luck to you and hopefully the “rapture” happens, but I wouldn’t get your hopes to high.

    #946059
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Response to post 946037

    You: Those sacrifices you are talking about were for false gods.

    Me: Of course they were and God said they were detestable.

    You: Shame on you for making no distinction at all.

    Me: What distinction am I suppose to make? God said human sacrifice is detestable and Jesus is said to be the sacrificial lamb, the Passover lamb, the sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. So Jesus gave himself up (sacrificed himself) and his blood is for the atonement of mankind’s sins. BUT god says blood isn’t necessary for forgiveness. Since God doesn’t require blood for forgiveness, what is the point of Jesus’ blood and keep in mind human sacrifice is detestable?

    As I pointed out in a previous post no man can take on the sins of another, yet that’s what the writers of the NT said Jesus did. Let’s say Isa 53 is pointing to Jesus, as the messiah, where else in the Tanakh does it state the messiah was to die for the sins of mankind…need two witnesses; God repeated HIMSELF constantly, but concerning the redemption of mankind through the human sacrifice of the messiah – “once.” Something doesn’t add up.

     

    Response to post 946042

    You: Animal sacrifices offered to the only true God YHWH, were a picture pointing forward to the final, all-sufficient sacrifice made by Jesus Christ his Son.

    Me: Explain Jer 33:14-18 “Behold, days are coming,’ declares the Lord…and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.” This chapter is speaking of the restoration of Israel and Judah, which we know hasn’t happened yet. Once Israel and Judah are restored these offerings and sacrifices will be restored, explain this if Jesus was the “all-sufficient sacrifice.” Explain why the restoration of Israel and Judah are never spoken of in the NT, but God speaks of this through many of HIS prophets. Something doesn’t align; did our unchanging God, change?

    You: The Book of Hebrews is the best book regarding these matters.

    Me: The “book” of Hebrews shouldn’t be called a “book”, but trash and stripped from the pages of the NT. I put no value in that book and have gone over the corruption in the first chapter posted here (945980). Verify what I wrote and if I am wrong, explain why.

    #946060
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……You: The definite article, “the” was added to the text, look it up.

    Me: I tried to and didn’t find anything, please cite your source.

    You: for all the law is fulfilled in one word, “you shall love our neighbor as yourself.”

    Me: Funny, didn’t Jesus give two laws. Did you notice Paul said “all the law (commands) is fulfilled in one word” and he didn’t include the most important “law”, to love God with all of your being. Are you waking up!??!

    You also need to explain Rev 22:14 “Blessed are they that do his commandments (aka “laws”), that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” John states the commandments bring life and you claim they’re irrelevant.

    DT, here is my sources……to the definite articulate “the” not being in the text.  read the Greek original text to this ,  “by the works of  “the” law , no flesh shall be justified before God.” You will see that the article “the” is not there.  Commandments are not laws , when you apply “law”. to commandments,  them they become , “enforced” commandments , as I clearly shown in scripture, Ex 20:20.  The reason God turned his loving commandments into Law, was because of their (the Israelites)  unbelief in him. As Ex 20:20 clearly shows. The commandments were forever, but the law was from mount EX 20:20.  Just as Moses said, “that the “Fear” of him might be before you eyes , that you sin not”.  Gods loving commandments were turned in “LAWS”  to generate “FEAR” , and cause them to obey God.

    But none of that changed any of them in their hearts, because there is, “NO LAW” that can make a persons heart right and therefore ” by works of law (the way law works) no flesh can be justified before GOD”.  The apostle Paul is absolutely right, in what he said, for those who have eyes to see, and have not closed theirs ears to hear.

    Jesus didn’t give two “laws”,  he gave two “commandments”,  both show the word “LOVE”  in them , so them “LOVE” fulfills “ALL” the law>  jus as Paul said> 
    Paul is right, all the law is fulfilled in one “word” ,  “you shall
    “LOVE”. your neighbor as your self”   It is the “LOVE” of God  shed abroad in our hearts that fulfills all the requirements of law .  Even the Gentiles who did not have the Law, (forced compliance) were able to do everything required by the law,  that showed obedience to Gods commandments by the,  “love of God shed abroad in their hearts by GOD “.

    “The law (forced compliance) was made for evil Carmel transgressors, like those evil Israelites in the wilderness were, just as scripture clearly shows.

    peace and love to you and yours DT…………gene

     

     

     

    #946065
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hebrews 10:28-29
    28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    #946066
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You ignored where in the Tanakh the “laws” “justified” anyone.

    You ignored what made Abraham righteous as he kept God’s commandments, statutes, and laws all before they were given to the Israelite’s at Mt. Sinai. Something tells me these commands, statutes, and laws are really written on everyone’s hearts.

    You ignored how the few commands I listed are “forced compliance.” If I were to quickly summarize these commands, it would be to “love God and love others.” Sounds very similar to what Jesus said.

    You ignored the comment on tithing – did that hit a little to close?

    I don’t understand why you constantly disparage the Jewish people, aren’t they God’s chosen or did our unchanging God change his mind here too?

    Will I get an explanation of Rev 22:14 or not?

    If commandments are not part of the law, give me an example of each.

    I don’t think it matters whether the definite article “the” is written in the Greek or not, it doesn’t change what Paul is talking about, the Torah. If you would like to get picky, the fact “the” isn’t there means Paul can be referring to any “law” because the usage of definite article “the” before the noun points the reader to something specific and/or unique. Because we know Paul is speaking of the Torah the definite article “the” in the English translation is added to emphasize he isn’t speaking of Roman law or any other law. Why make this beyond difficult? Now that we know Paul is speaking of the Torah, answer where it states in the Torah justifies anyone as Paul claims?

    When you say “commandments are not laws”; this statement is confusing to me, the “law” is the first five books of the Tanakh. I thought we established this months ago when we were discussing Jesus saying “all the law and the prophets” and the “law” spoken by Jesus are the books written by Moses; did Paul change the meaning? What is written within those pages are “commandments” given by God to the nation of Israel – 613 to be exact. Look up mitzvah and what it is; unfortunately any real discussion of this term will take you to one of those “evil hearted Israelite’s” page.

    You: “The reason God turned his loving commandments into Law, was because of their (the Israelite’s) unbelief in him. As Ex 20:20 clearly shows.”

    Me: How?!? Did you read this chapter at all?!? Starting in verse 1 God begins speaking to the people, giving them what we call the 10 Commandments. From verse 18 (we like context) And all the people were seeing the thunder and the lightning and the sound of the ram’s horn and the mountain smoking, and the people saw, and they trembled, and they stood at a distance. 19 And they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will listen, but let not God speak with us, lest we die.” 20 And Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you so that his fear will be before you so that you do not sin.” 21 And the people stood at a distance, and Moses approached the very thick cloud where God was.” God was speaking to all the people in this moment and they feared the voice of God; fearing they would die if they continued to hear HIM speak. Turning to Moses they wanted him to talk to God on their behalf and would listen to him. Moses reassures them and not to be afraid. Tell me, if you were standing there, what would be your response to listening to a booming voice coming from a cloud that encompassed a mountain? Highly doubt you would be standing there “praising” God; you would have soiled yourself in HIS presence. Which brings up another point, how much “fear” does the christian today have of God or is it the “Jesus buffer” that allows you to be arrogant toward God?

    Why was God “testing” them and what was HE testing them for? The statement doesn’t make much sense as no reasoning is given to why they are being tested. However, digging into this further, another possible meaning suggests it was for the people to have a vivid, sensory experience of God. This fits with the verse, because they experienced God and the fear they were feeling would be a deterrent to sin. In reading this passage I see nowhere God turning HIS “loving” commandments into “LAWS” to generate “FEAR.” Why are you making this so difficult?

    #946067
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You obviously didn’t read this link.

    Read it, verify what I said, and get back to me…should you dare.

    What is precious in your quoting of Heb 10:28 is what it says concerning the “law”; “A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion…” Your welcome Gene!

    #946068
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    The author of Hebrews is making the point that if the punishment for violating the law of Moses is so severe, then how much more severe must the punishment be for rejecting the salvation offered through the sacrifice of Christ?

    #946069
    Berean
    Participant

     

    God bless

    #946070
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    It wasn’t I didn’t understand what was written; the point was really for Gene, if he’s still paying attention, where the unknown author of Hebrews says the punishment for violating the law of Moses is severe; meaning there must still be a punishment for violating God’s laws. That’s all.

    I presume you still haven’t read the link I posted discussing the veracity of the book of Hebrews. It was a reply to Jodi, so you have to skip the first few paragraphs before I discuss the book.

     

    #946071
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….show me the scripture where it say Moses keep Gods “laws” .   Tell me of one Sabbath day he keep, tell me which “Synagogue”, He attended, for that matter tell  where his sons, Issac ,Jacob, ever did either.  Post them here for us all to see.

    There is “ONLY” , three things God  requires us to do.
    MIC 6;8…..> “He has shewed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do “JUSTLY”,  and to “LOVE” MERCY, and to walk “HUMBLY”  with your God”  .  
    Abraham was a man who believed God , a just man, and loved mercy, and walked humbly with hm. 

    All the rest was added, because of “unbelief “.  Just as Paul and Jesus clearly showed us all>  Those Jew who killed Jesus were some of the most ungodly people that ever lived,  They wanted his blood to be on their heads and their children’s head  and so it was, and is,  as history clearly shows, they have no peace, even now.

    The “loving commandments”,  which were turned into laws, at the mountain, were for those , ungodly deeds  those ungodly and unbelieving people were committing.  That is what scripture clearly shows.  The Apostle Paul was exactly right in what he said, and that is why the Jews to this day hate him>  DT we will see where your new Jewish faith and hatred of Paul and Jesus as the messiah, will get you in the end, won’t we? .  Repent DT.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

     

    #946072
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….show me the scripture where it say Moses keep Gods “laws” .   Tell me of one Sabbath day he keep, tell me which “Synagogue”, He attended, for that matter tell  where his sons, Issac ,Jacob, ever did either.  Post them here for us all to see.

    There is “ONLY” , three things God  requires us to do.
    MIC 6;8…..> “He has shewed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do “JUSTLY”,  and to “LOVE” MERCY, and to walk “HUMBLY”  with your God”  .  
    Abraham was a man who believed God , a just man, and loved mercy, and walked humbly with hm. 

    All the rest was added, because of “unbelief “.  Just as Paul and Jesus clearly showed us all>  Those Jew who killed Jesus were some of the most ungodly people that ever lived,  They wanted his blood to be on their heads and their children’s head  and so it was, and is,  as history clearly shows, they have no peace, even now.

    The “loving commandments”,  which were turned into laws, at the mountain, were for those , ungodly deeds  those ungodly and unbelieving people were committing.  That is what scripture clearly shows.  The Apostle Paul was exactly right in what he said, and that is why the Jews to this day hate him>  DT we will see where your new Jewish faith and hatred of Paul and Jesus as the messiah, will get you in the end, won’t we? .  Repent DT.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

     

    #946073
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Sorry for the mistake…..>in the above post I meant to say Abraham,  not Moses.

    peace and love to you all……..gene

Viewing 20 posts - 25,381 through 25,400 (of 25,993 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account