John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 25,101 through 25,120 (of 25,995 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #945538
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You must learn to differentiate between: BEING (THE)GOD AND FATHER
    AND THE SON OF GOD THE FATHER WHO IS GOD (IN ESSENCE)

    We are human because our parents are human
    THUS IN THE BIGINNING THE SON OF GOD WAS GOD(DIVINE, GOD IN ESSENCE..)
    BECAUSE HE CAME OUT OF HIM (GOD THE FATHER) IN THE DAYS OF ETERNITY. (Micah 5:2)

    [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that👉 I came out from God.
    28] 👉I came forth from the Father, 👈
    👉and am come into the world: 👈👉again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.👈
    John 16

    🙏

    #945539
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean,  please tell us what the difference of Being someone,  and the “essence” of someone means.   I know it is a false Catholic  “trinitarian” teaching.

    Jodi and I and Nick,  have posted scripture after scripture to you over and over and you just hold on to your false teachings, are you so “indoctrinated” in the doctrines of you “Church” , you can’t even think for yourself anymore?  The word “essence”.  isn’t even in the Bible, if it is I have never seen it there,  as far as I can recall.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #945540
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Does Jesus identify himself as the Son of God by the works of God that he is able to do because the Spirit of God abodes in him? 

    Yes indeed, such is what we read Jesus proclaiming of himself throughout the gospels. 

    Me: No Jodi, that is your corrupted mentality!

    JESUS IDENTIFIED HIMSELF AS THE SON OF GOD FROM THE AGE OF TWELVE!

    Read please:

    Luke 2:48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49And he said to them:

    How is it that you sought me?

    did you not know, that I must be about my father’s business?

    50And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them. 

    Jodi, do you deny the above scripture?

    Yes or know, please!

    Now to the next one:

    Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 

    14 But John stayed him, saying:

    I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me?

    15 And Jesus answering, said to him:

    Suffer it to be so now.

    For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice.

    Then he suffered him.

    Jodi, FROM THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE,

    DID JOHN KNOW THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD?

    DEFINITELY YES!

    DID JESUS IDENTIFY HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD?

    DEFINITELY YES!

    NOW IT IS YOUR TURN TO PROVE OTHERWISE AND DENY!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945541
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……..So at what age are we also the Sons of God?   Seeking Jesus called us all sons of Gd n scripture over and over,  remember? , our “father”who art in heaven”, and again ” how much more will your “father”who is in heaven give them of the spirit that ask”, and agin, “your “father”who is in heaven know you have need of these things” and again “

    Matt 5:16, Matt 5:45 Matt 5:48,  Matt 6: 14,  Matt 6 :15, Matt:6:26, Matt 6: 32, ,Matt 7:11, Matt 10:20, Matt 10:29, Matt 15:6, Matt 18:14, Matt 18:35, Matt 23:9,  that’s just 14 times in one book out of 32 times,  that say we “are the sons of God”.

    So tell us, how does saying Jesus is a son of God, make him any different the we are, in our “relationship”, to God the Father?

    Satan’s ministers want us all to believe Jesus is different the the rest of his human brothers and sisters,  that was his whole idea in turning the “man” Jesus into a God , it was to separate Jesus from the rest of his brothers and sisters,  seems you and the rest of false “Christianity” do the same thing, follow Satan’s “doctrine of separation” 

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #945542
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    Berean,  please tell us what the difference of Being someone,  and the “essence” of someone means.   I know it is a false Catholic  “trinitarian” teaching……

     

    Me

    The Word “person” or “essence”

    I recognize that it is not a very common word in the Bible but it exists.

    Hebrew 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of 👉his person👈, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

    person

    👇

    5287

    upostasiV
    hupostasis

    upostasei
    2 Cor 9:4, 2 Cor 11:17

    upostasewV
    👉Heb 1:3, Heb 3:14

    upostasiV
    Heb 11:1

    from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence👈, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):–confidence, confident,
    👉 person, substance.👈

    🙏

    #945543
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi gene,

    You: Carmel……..So at what age are we also the Sons of God?

    ME: It all depends on how and WHEN you receive your first love! 

    You: So tell us, how does saying Jesus is a son of God, make him any different the we are, in our “relationship”, to God the Father?

    First and foremost:

    Jesus is not a son of God But

    THE SON OF GOD UNIQUE!

    FOR HUMANITY, NO JESUS NO GOD THE FATHER!

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him.

    17And he is before all,

    and by him all things consist.

    18And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is the beginning,

    the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold the primacy:

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell;

    20 And THROUGH HIM to reconcile all things unto himself,

    making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

    21And you, whereas you were some time alienated and

    enemies in mind in evil works: 

    22Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death,

    ATTENTION Gene! Here it comes the DIFFERENCE!

    to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before HIM: 

    NOW READ HEREUNDER:

    John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you.

    As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine,

    so neither can you,

    unless you abide in me.

    OUR FIRST LOVE FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER!

     5I am the vine; you the branches:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing. 

    CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE:

    MR SON OF GOD?

    Now read hereunder:

    John 1:12 But as many as received him,

    HE gave them the power to be made the sons of God,

    MORE DIFFERENCE Gene, answer please:

    WHO GAVE HUMANITY THE POWER TO BE MADE THE SONS OF GOD?

    Attention now Gene:

    to them that believe in

    HIS NAME.

    THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES GOD THE FATHER GAVE HIM!

    YAHWEH!

    ANSWER Gene!

    WILL EVER GOD THE FATHER GIVE TO ANY HUMAN BEING  A NAME LIKE HE GAVE TO HIS UNIQUE SON JESUS?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    MORE DIFFERENCE:

    Cont. John 1:13Who are born, not of blood,

    LIKE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

    nor of the will of the flesh,

    LIKE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

    nor of the will of man,

    LIKE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

    but of God. JESUS

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945544
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean and Carmel…….The conclusion of what both of you say is completely unscriptural and not at all inline with our scriptures,  Carmel, Jesus was indeed “uniquely ” born , but none the less, a human being, exactly as we are, with our exception.  I showed you clearly how Jesus said we are also sons of God, he also said we must overcome “exactly as he did”, Just as it is written, “he that overcomes, I will grant to sit with me in my kingdom, “JUST AS I HAVE OVERCAME”, and sit in my Fathers kingdom”. 

    Berean there is no such word as  “essence” even written in our scriptures anywhere.  You are simply adhering to the false Catholic teaching of the “trinity”. , where the pagan Emperor Constantine made up the “false” Doctrine of Jesus being “homousious”, With God .  A doctrine designed by a pagan emperor under the influence of Satan to deceive “Christianity’’ into believing Jesus was different than the rest of humanity, in his existence.  This “Doctrine of Separation” was a teaching directly from Satan himself> It turns Jesus from a normal human being,  like the rest of us , into a God, and causes people to commit “IDOLATRY ”  and that is exactly what SATAN wants them to do,  and they even worship Jesus as a God, and even preach him as such.  2Ths 2.   Jesus will reject all who do that at his return, and as a result of him rejecting the Churches that preach  that, which is nearly all of them, the churches will turn against him and call him, the “ANTICHRIST” , a man “you people” falsely preach, that will come before Jesus,  the churches are already “predisposed ” to do that,  by the preaching of the false doctrine of “the Antichrist’.  When Jesus rejects them they will reject Jesus and call him the Antichrist.  Why because they expect a God to return, not a human being, so seeing him as a human being and not a God that they falsely preach, but  a “man of God” who rejects them and their false teachings, they will turn on him  calling him the “ANTICHRIST”.

    peace and love to you both and yours………..gene

    #945545
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You unfortunately did not understand what Hebrew 1:3 says

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and 👉the express image of his person,👈

    The word translated here as person, can also be translated as “essence”, or “substance”

    🙏

    #945546
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I have given you scripture that directly proves to you that Jesus was NOT the WORKER, that it was indeed YHVH our Father who was both the architect and the WORKER, where YHVH our Father had then rested from HIS WORK on the 7th day.

    Our heavenly Father’s hallowed name is YHVH and there is one YHVH.

    Deuteronomy 6: 4 `Hear, O Israel, YHVH our God is one YHVH; 5 and thou hast loved YHVH thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might,13 YHVH thy God thou dost fear, and Him thou dost serve, and by His name thou dost swear;

    As said, YHVH our God is ONE YHVH.

    How are you going to try and twist this clear basic truth Berean? Jesus is a SERVANT to YHVH our God who is one YHVH. YHVH our heavenly Father formed man and breathed into his nostrils making him into a living soul. When He did that He knew of another man to come who would fulfill all His will for creating heaven and earth in the first place, for YHVH to become ALL IN ALL. 

    Genesis 2:7 And YHVH God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God YHVH, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I YHVH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am YHVH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Jesus asked us to pray, ” Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    Our heavenly Father’s name is YHVH and there is the ONLY YHVH and He stretched out and spread forth the earth and that which cometh out of it ALONE, including the people, who He made male and female just as Jesus said.

    YHVH elected one from among the people, ONLY him would YHVH give a certain GLORY to, ONLY this man was chosen to fulfill YHVH’s covenant and be for a light unto the world.  ONLY this man was called to righteousness, ONLY this man was born of the Spirit without measure filled with grace and truth and then was sent out into the world where people beheld his GLORY. YHVH gave this man a name above all other names, JESUS.

    YHVH made his WORD given to the prophet Isaiah true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth and the people beheld his glory.

    Berean, go read through the gospels, 

    the SENDING is always in relation to Jesus quoting Isaiah 61

    Jesus’s glory that the people beheld is always in relation to him having been born of the Spirit at the river Jordan

    Jesus’s proof that he was indeed a Son is ALWAYS in relation to YHVH’s Spirit being in him and him being LED BY the Spirit, LED by YHVH to do YHVH’s works. 

    Berean, DIA does in fact mean BY REASON OF.

    Berean, you would do far better if you read scripture keeping in mind the below verse and believing that truly it is a Son of Man who was settled into YHVH’s House and His kingdom forever and was exalted to His right hand all according to a promise YHVH made before the world was.

    Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Berean, Jesus was born of the Spirit not by measure, called to righteousness and he was elected from among the people to be the only man to bring forth the gift of grace. The Spirit upon him bears the fruit of all goodness, righteousness and truth. That Spirit in him as attested to the gospels bore witness to his Spirit that he was a Son of God. 

    All you do is make Jesus into a false image.

    #945547
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Why will I answer differently from other times?
    God the Father is the source of all LIFE, even that of his only BEGOTTEN Son “in the days of eternity” (Micah 5:2)
    When God does something for the Glory of His name, whatever means He uses, The glory comes to Him. Whether it is the creation of the world, the redemption of the world, and the JUDGMENT OF THE WORLD, THE GLORY GOES TO HIM FIRST, AND ALSO SECONDLY TO HIS BEGOTTEN SON.

    Révélation 5
    [1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
    [2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
    [3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, nor to look thereon.
    [4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
    [5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
    [6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    [7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    [8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
    [9] And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    [11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and millions of thousands;
    [12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is 👉the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.
    [13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power , be unto 👉him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb👈 for ever and ever.👈
    [14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and 👉 worshiped him 👈that lived for ever and ever.

    🙏

    #945548
    carmel
    Participant

    Gene,

    You: exactly as he did”, Just as it is written, “he that overcomes,

    I will grant to sit with me in my kingdom,

    “JUST AS I HAVE OVERCAME”, and sit in my Fathers kingdom”. 

    Me: Gene,

    You produced a scripture that reveals how immature YOU are regarding, both

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and 

    THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

    BOTH THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER, and 

    HE KINGDOM OF THE SON JESUS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #945549
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,,

    You: It turns Jesus from a normal human being, 

    Answer Gene, please:

    CAN A NORMAL HUMAN BEING EXIST IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT

    THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE ACT BETWEEN

    THE SPERM OF THE MAN AND THE OVUM OF THE  WOMAN,

    FROM CAIN ONWARD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945550
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: I have given you scripture that directly proves to you that Jesus was NOT the WORKER, that it was indeed YHVH our Father….

     

    Me: Jodi the above is KID’S STUFF!

    CAN YOU INSERT A NAIL INTO ANYTHING, WITHOUT THE USE OF A HAMMER OR SOMETHING SIMILAR, USING ONLY YOUR HAND?

    YES OR NO PLEASE! 

    NOW IF YOU USE A HAMMER OR SOMETHING SIMILAR, DOES THAT MEAN THAT

    YOU DID THE WORK

    ALL BY YOURSELF?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    OR WITH THE HELP

    OF ANOTHER PARTICULAR TOOL?

    Now let’s read Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said:

    It is not good for man to be ALONE:

    let us make HIM a HELP like unto HIMSELF. 

    THUS GOD GAVE THE MAN A HELP LIKE UNTO HIMSELF

    THE WOMAN IN FLESH.

    ATTENTION Jodi please:

    Now God created man, MALE AND FEMALE,  in the image and LIKENESS OF GOD!

    That means that the above verse

    “It is not good for man to be ALONE”:

    SINCE MAN WAS IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD, MALE AND FEMALE, 

    is also a reference to God,

    MALE AND FEMALE, ANDROGYNOUS!

    THUS, BEFORE CREATION STARTED, WHEN GOD, SPIRIT,  WAS IN HIS UNIQUE GLORY, ONE WITH HIS SON, PHYSICAL,  SAID:

    IT IS NOT GOOD FOR GOD TO BE ALONE!

    A CLEAR REFERENCE TO PHYSICAL CREATION! MOTHER EARTH! THE FEMALE!

    NOW WHEN WE READ THE NEXT VERSE IN Genesis 2:18 referring to the man IT SAYS:

    let us make HIM, A CLEAR REFERENCE TO SPIRITUAL CREATION IN THE MAN, THE LIVING SOUL,

    a HELP like unto HIMSELF!  

    HENCE: BOTH THE MAN AND THE WOMAN, MALE AND FEMALE, TWO HUMAN BEINGS,  WERE ALIKE IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD, MALE AND FEMALE, THE FATHER AND THE SON!John17:5

    Likewise, since BOTH WERE  in the likeness of God,

    BEFORE CREATION STARTED GOD ALSO SAID:

    LET US MAKE  ME A HELP LIKE ONTO MYSELF,

     

    GOD! Male and female, in

    THE FATHER and THE SON!

    TO BE CLEAR:

    GOD THE FATHER WITHIN THE PHYSICAL BODY OF “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN.  John17:5 ,John1:1

    AS MUCH AS GOD MADE A HELP ONTO THE MAN IN

    THE PHYSICAL BODY OF THE WOMAN, AND SINCE IN THE LIKENESS OF GOD, ALSO IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN, IN ORDER FOR JESUS/SPIRIT TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY,

    JESUS’ SPIRIT AS THE FIRST WOMAN, AS HE ALSO WAS IN THE FIRST MAN,

    SINCE ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM.

    FOR THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD! Rev.13:8

    IT’S ALL YOURS Jodi and in this case, Gene, TO PONDER!

    You: I have given you scripture that directly proves to you that Jesus was NOT the WORKER, that it was indeed YHVH our Father….

    IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE TRUTH IT IS A DIFFERENT STORY ALTOGETHER SINCE THERE ARE

    TWO KINGDOMS:

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON,

    THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and

    THE KINGDOM OF THE WORLD TO COME! RESPECTIVELY!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945551
    carmel
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You: Jesus’s glory that the people beheld is always in relation to him

    having been born of the Spirit at the river Jordan.

    Me: The above is your invention!

    Produce the specific scripture that says the above precise words!

    JESUS WAS BORN OF THE HOLY GHOST ONLY WHEN HE CAME OUT OF MARY AS

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!

    YAHWEH, THE LIGHT, BORN IN JESUS!

    John 12:46 I am come a light into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness. 

    BORN IN A RADIANT SPIRIT BODY!

    Jesus’s proof that he was indeed a Son is ALWAYS in relation to YHVH’s Spirit being in him and him being LED BY the Spirit, LED by YHVH

    to do YHVH’s works. 

    Me: AS WITHOUT JESUS, YAHWEH REMAINS UNKNOWN, MYSTERIOUS, AND HIDDEN ON THIS TANGIBLE PLANET.

    NO JESUS NO YAHWEH!

    John17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth:

    EVEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    Re.5:1 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12Saying with a loud voice,

    Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 

     

    John 17:5 I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    Me: EVEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD! Rev. 13:8

    NO JESUS NO YAHWEH!

    5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Isaiah 45;23 I have sworn by myself,

    the “WORD” of justice shall go out of my mouth,

    and shall not return:

    For every knee shall be bowed to me, and every tongue shall swear.

     

    Philippians 2:9 For which cause God also HATH exalted him,

    and HATH given him a name which is above all names:

    YAHWEH!

     10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

    of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

     11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

     

    Isaiah 45:24Therefore shall he say:

    In the Lord are my justices and empire:

    they shall come to him, and all that resist him shall be confounded.

     

     

    Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:

    a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity:

    therefore God, thy God,

    hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

     

    Isaiah 45:25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified and praised.

    John 17:23 I in them,

    and thou in me,

    that they may be made perfect in one;

    and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945552
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Answer Gene, please:

    CAN A NORMAL HUMAN BEING EXIST IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT

    THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE ACT BETWEEN

    THE SPERM OF THE MAN AND THE OVUM OF THE  WOMAN,

    FROM CAIN ONWARD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    Carmel here is your answer,   YES a normal human being can exist without sin,  Jesus is the perfect example of that, proving,  “with God “all” things are possible”.  According to Jesus, but then I know you truly don’t believe what Jesus said>  Jesus never thought himself to be good , he attributed “all” goodness to “One” God, YHVH,  the “ONLY” TRUE GOD”. according to “Jesus” that is.

    Carmel you and Berean , on the other hand are perfect examples of how “churches can screw up a persons mind”.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #945553
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I am trying to hold you accountable to the sum of all scripture. You can give your belief all you want but you cannot continue saying that it is biblical truth when you aren’t able in the slightest to prove it in the sum of all scripture.

    You said that the Son was the worker and the Father was the architect. In the sum of all scripture, not just your hand picked ones you falsely interpret as you ignore vast amounts of the bible, your doctrine is exposed as a complete lie.

    The OT does not teach that YHVH our heavenly Father created heaven, earth and all things therein by the means of a Son. On the contrary the OT teaches us that He did so Alone, all by Himself and further we are given the PURPOSE and who He was creating it FOR.

    Moreover the OT has no problem telling us who will fulfill YHVH’s will, what this person will accomplish and how it is they accomplish it. Further we are directly given in the OT also that this is the very person YHVH had made creation by reason of and for. 

    When we get to the NT, the gospels are all about YHVH’s word being made true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth. He is indeed the man of the OT to who YHVH had made creation by reason of and for and he is indeed the man of the OT who brings forth the End that YHVH had declared from the beginning.

    Berean, it is delusional to think that in the OT it is perfectly reasonable that YHVH tells us that a man is going to come and fulfill all of His will giving details BUT THEN JUST LEAVE OUT COMPLETELY that it was not actually YHVH alone who made heaven and earth but this man had also pre-existed and it was him who actually did the works of creation. That is not reasonable it is completely delusional.

    YOU: God the Father is the source of all LIFE, even that of his only BEGOTTEN Son “in the days of eternity” (Micah 5:2)

    ME: Berean, now who is rewriting scripture? 

    Micah 5: 2And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity.

    The above verse aligns with below passage perfectly.

    Isaiah 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

    24 Thus saith YHVH, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Micah 5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of YHVH, in the majesty of the name of YHVH his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

    Berean, it’s also delusional to think that one verse in the OT is dropping some bombshell truth with just a couple of words and absolutely no further explanation, and is telling us that the ruler that is to come out from the tribe of Judah and go forth in the strength of YHVH as His servant and messenger had actually existed beforehand.  The goings forth of this man we are directly given was declared even before the days of old, it was declared from the beginning and even before the world was and he is coming forth from ancient people whom YHVH had appointed.

    Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    I don’t have anymore time or else I would go on about Revelation 5. Jesus indeed received eternal life and by such he LIVETH FOREVER. The lamb is the Son of David to whom God had promised He WOULD BE A FATHER TO and that He WOULD SETTLE him INTO HIS HOUSE AND KINGDOM FOREVER. YHVH raised him from the dead never to allow his flesh to see corruption and he gave him the sure mercies of David all as He had promised.

    #945554
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi,

    Very good Jodi, you do not believe in the divinity of the Son of God….Someone blocked your eyes to see the truth….I ONLY hope that one day, CHRIST HIMSELF SHOWS YOU WHO REALY HE IS, A LITTLE LIKE PAUL ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS.

    🙏

    #945555
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Answer Gene, please:

    CAN A NORMAL HUMAN BEING EXIST IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT

    THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE ACT BETWEEN

    THE SPERM OF THE MAN AND THE OVUM OF THE  WOMAN,

    FROM CAIN ONWARD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    Carmel here is your answer,  

    YES a normal human being can exist without sin, 

     

    Gene,

    YOU DIDN’T ANSWER MY QUESTION THUS:

    READ AGAIN MY QUESTION AND ANSWER PLEASE:

    CAN A NORMAL HUMAN BEING EXIST IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT

    THE SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE ACT BETWEEN

    THE SPERM OF THE MAN AND THE OVUM OF THE  WOMAN,

    FROM CAIN ONWARD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

    #945556
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You:The OT does not teach that YHVH our heavenly Father created heaven, earth and all things therein by the means of a Son

    Proverbs:8:30 I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #945557
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    You

    Hi Jodi,

    You:The OT does not teach that YHVH our heavenly Father created heaven, earth and all things therein by the means of a Son

    Proverbs:8:30 I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

    Me

    Amen !

     

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