John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,801 through 24,820 (of 25,997 total)
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  • #944894
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    No mere man can ascend up to heaven, nor descend from it, to obtain wisdom. But Jesus descended and then ascended to sit at God’s right hand (John 3:13; Eph 4:9). He made all things by His power; by Him all things consist; and He upholds all things by the word of His power (John 1:3; Col 1:17; Heb 1:3). In Him are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and He has been made wisdom for each of the elect (Col 2:3; I Cor 1:30-31).

    🙏

    #944896
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @searcher @genebalthrop

    Hi Nick and Gene,

    The pre-existence of Jesus Christ is very important.
    God gave us something that He already had and His love for us was shown in that act of giving.
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
    believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    If He gave us His Son, He then had to have a Son to give.
    Not just a unique son, but His only begotten Son, the Son of His Bosom, the Son that came out of God.
    This is the very heart of the Gospel.

    God bless

    #944897
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    First off, Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD— 3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. 9 They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORDas the waters cover the sea. 10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

    I Chronicles 17 tells us God’s WORD that He WOULD BE a Father unto a son of David and that He WOULD settle this Son of Man into His house and His kingdom. You deny this clear passage Berean and your doctrine produces a lie against it, plain and simple.

    You also deny Jesus’s words in John 3 and elsewhere as you refuse to apply the knowledge given from other passages with that of others. Jesus upon rising out of the water received the Holy Spirit and when Nicodemus declared Jesus to be a Rabbi “COME FROM GOD”, which in other words means he came down from heaven, Jesus said that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to see the kingdom of God and he also said, “12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” What did Jesus also say, “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    So what do we have from scripture, as promised God became a Father unto a son of David, as Jesus was born of water and of the Spirit at the river Jordan. When God promised unto a son of David that He would be a Father He also promised He would settle him into His House and His Kingdom, which Jesus says that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to see the kingdom of God and Jesus tells us that he is the Son of Man exalted to God’s right hand. Further Berean you refuse to acknowledge the image of the Son that Paul gives us in Romans 8, the image believers in Jesus are to be made into, so that he MIGHT BE a firstborn among many brethren (don’t forget Psalms 89, God WOULD MAKE him into His firstborn), that image is one who is led by the Spirit, that image is one where the Spirit bears witness to the human spirit that they are a child of God. What do you think Jesus was performing miracles through the Spirit for Berean?? It was for proof that he was the Son of God, proof that he was begotten of the Spirit, filled not only with powers but also grace and truth. The Spirit of God living in Jesus without measure bore witness that he was God’s Son. Moreover we are told that the fruits of the Spirit are in all goodness, righteousness and truth and that one who is born of God is righteous, one without sin.

    Further Berean you seem to refuse to acknowledge that it was YHVH’s WORD from the beginning that a Son of Man would execute all of YHVH’s will and that will includes as son of David being a ruler overall the earth, hence why we are told that all things were created by reason of and for Jesus. 

    With the Holy Spirit upon him, Stephen saw the Son of Man in heaven at God’s right hand and we are given that it is the Son of Man returning in our Father’s glory to fulfill God’s will, the End that God had declared from the beginning. You deny this?

    John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Such was a glory indeed that was of God for this Son of Man before the world was.  

    Berean we are also given that YHVH created heaven and earth by Himself, ALONE and that He created earth for the purpose that it be inhabited by mankind where they would not seek Him in vain. We are given in Acts 17 that our Creator predetermined man’s boundaries and that he ordained a man to judge the world giving us assurance through raising him from the dead.  When Jesus returns he is rewarding man with God’s Spirit, where it will live in them and cause them also to walk in all of God’s ways, where they will be joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

    Read the END to which God declared from the beginning,

    1 Corinthians 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

    The MAN, Jesus Christ, is the firstfruits of the Spirit, which makes him a Son of God. He was raised from the dead receiving it by promise, God being ALL IN him and when Jesus returns in our Father’s glory, he is rewarding it to others where God will be all in all. This is the END God declared from the beginning that ONE MAN would execute and the very reason why we are told that all things were created by reason of and for Jesus Christ. This is exactly why we are told that without him nothing would have been made that was made and why we are told in him all things consist. This was the glory that was from God for this man before the world was. 

    #944898
    Berean
    Participant

    DD

    The pre-existence of Jesus Christ is very important.
    God gave us something that He already had and His love for us was shown in that act of giving.
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
    believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    If He gave us His Son, He then had to have a Son to give.
    Not just a unique son, but His only begotten Son, the Son of His Bosom, the Son that came out of God.
    This is the very heart of the Gospel.

    Me

    Exactly!

    Well Saïd DD

    😄

    #944899
    Nick
    Participant

    It seems right to those who do not know the Spirit and are confounded by the  apparent mysteries in what is written. Submit the human mind to the wisdom of God is the path of understanding.

    #944902
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……..“EXCELLENT POST”

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……..gene

    #944907
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    All the prophets came from God.

    All came from heaven.

    but none of them lived there.

    #944908
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Applying your definition, the prophets would also have come in the flesh and are now in the glory they had with the Father before the world began because Jesus is like them, just a man (only) like them and not special like the Word of God. That said…

    The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. NIV The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. NASB The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

    They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, `I came down from heaven’?” “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”

    Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us.

    “I am the way and the truth and the life.

    As any truth seeker can plainly see. the Word of Life that is, the eternal life which was WITH the Father (just as the Word that was with God was WITH the Father also),  is Jesus. Jesus himself said that he is the life. You don’t have to believe his words of course. But because he is that eternal life (the vine where that life is given), it explains why there is no other name by which men can be saved. For it is through him that eternal life is given, not the prophets who are mere men like us (with a special calling) He is the vine and we are the branches. The prophets are not the vine, they are branches like us. You need to believe and confess the truth about Jesus. He is a man and a prophet, but much more because he is the eternal life, the vine of which no prophet can ever come close.

    #944918
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi PC,

    The Spirit in Christ Jesus was from heaven and told men.

    Surely you heard his voice in that wonderful submitted vessel?

    or did you really only hear a man speaking like the Pharisees did?

     

    #944919
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi PC,

    The Spirit of eternal life was given to the first fruits, Jesus Christ,

    and those in him also inherit this free blessing.

    Surely you have been joined to him by baptism in his name?

    #944926
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….ALL VINES COME FROM A BRANCH.  That my friend is a fact. Jesus was taken from the branch of mankind and became a vine, planted by God the Father. and we are in that vine through  baptism, and  all the vine is supported by one Spirit, that gives life to both the vine and it’s branches, which is the Spirit of God.

    peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer………gene

    #944935
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

     Hi C,

    Conception in humans – Jesus began life and was conceived in Mary-

    requires contribution of an egg from the woman and a sperm from the male source.

    how do you see it again?

    Me: Reading your carnal reasoning above, it is more related to a scientific study than

    to God’s spiritual task of the Holy Ghost.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944937
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi C,

    was Jesus conceived?

    #944938
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi C,

    And behold you will conceive in your womb and bear a son , and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the son of the Most High: and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David; and he will reign in the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will have no end.

    Lk 1.30

    Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit..

    Mt 1.20

    #944939
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Both Matthew and Luke record, Jesus’ daddy is the spirit; so how is Jesus of the tribe of Judah? Tribal lineage comes from the father. If not conceived of Joseph how is Jesus of the seed of David?

    Now the real question. How is Jesus the Messiah when according to the OT the Messiah was to be Jewish AND from the line of David? Think Jesus missed a requirement if he was conceived of the spirit and would disqualify him as the Messiah.

    Guess we need to go back a re-read some OT…

    #944944
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You said in post #944790, “I need to return to the sheep fold, where I belong”; what “fold” did I leave that I’m now not apart of? Do I not belong to God or do I only belong to God thru Jesus?

    I came here to ask questions and present thoughts concerning those questions; hoping to bounce these thoughts off a wider pool of people verses the biased religious perspective given by the monologuing orator that stands at the front of a church every Sunday who usually doesn’t have time to address questions concerning doctrinal teachings and how it aligns with God’s word. The unfortunate part is the response received here is no different.

    None have answered why God required a human “sacrifice” of Jesus, when HE (God) explicitly states human sacrifice is an abomination.

    None have answered how the innocent are responsible for the guilt of another, when HE explicitly states the individual is responsible and is accountable for their sin.

    None have explained why I “need” Jesus for “atonement” of sin, when HE said repent, turn from your wickedness, and your sin will be remembered no more.

    None have explained what changed in the expectation of the OT Messiah verses the NT Messiah.

    None have addressed the blatant verb tense changes of the original text; thus modifying/changing the meaning of the text in our “newer/modern” translations.

    None have explained why the NT teaches the nonacceptance of Jesus will condemn one to “Hell” at the end of the age, when God said all nations will bow before HIM.

    I’ve spent 40 years wasting time looking/studying the NT and glancing at the OT. Start reading the prophets of the OT as they ARE words directly from God and see if it doesn’t change your perspective. As you read the prophets words pay attention to how often God is speaking; then ask yourself, how many times did God speak in the NT.

    #944945
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    In response to Post # 944770

    Absolutely we read of God’s forgiveness to the Israelite’s; but don’t forget it wasn’t just to the Israelite’s, it extended to the other nations and people too. Wasn’t it God who said the HE delights when the wicked turn from their ways? And when the “wicked man” turns from wickedness and does what is just and righteous, he will live. I’ll ask again, where does Jesus fall in this? Are you to say the only way I am able to “turn from wickedness” is with the “help” of Jesus? How come man is able to turn from their wickedness in the OT but not in the NT without “help”? I thought I was created in the image of God and wouldn’t by that very nature have the “ability” to be “righteous”? Please note I didn’t say sinless.

    You also mention “eternal life”; doing a quick search, a concept introduced in the NT; what does the OT say about “eternal life”? A topic of further study.

    You quote a passage from Ezekiel “that God promised to give man a new heart and put His Spirit within, causing man to walk in all of God’s ways, where therein there would be no more sin and thus no more death.” First this sounds like a merging of concepts from the OT and NT, because as I read the Ezekiel 36:26 “man” isn’t mentioned but a “you” is. Who is this “you” being addressed? Glad you asked, to find out begin reading in verse 22 and go to the end of the chapter. Who is God addressing and who will receive this “new heart”?

    Then you bring up the “law” and that Paul teaches the law serves to prove man’s weakness. This “law” Paul speaks of is the the Torah and what does Torah mean – “instruction” or “teaching.” Since the Torah is God’s set of instructions to teach man how we are to live before God and how we are to live with each other, explain how following God’s “laws” are a burden. Is it a burden for your children when you teach them to not hit out of anger or to take what doesn’t belong to them? Sounds like Paul is creating God in his image.

    You also brought up “atonement and sin offerings with the sacrifice of a bull or goat”; BUT, was “blood” required for atonement? Hosea 14:2 says “we render the calves of our lips”; this sounds like prayer. In Lev 5:5-13 we read a lamb or goat must be brought, if that isn’t affordable bring two doves or pigeons, if that isn’t affordable bring flour. Is there blood in flour? Additionally, in Ps 51:16-17 David tells us God doesn’t want sacrifices, but a repentant spirit. However, Hebrews 9:22 tells us, “And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.” This contradicts what God said; and people wonder why I said the book of Hebrews needs to be stripped from the NT or why I question the veracity of the NT today.

    Like I told Gene, start reading the prophets and see if that changes your perspective…

    #944946
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Whoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father. 1 John 2:23

    #944947
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Apparently God is the one who has “denied the son”; I’m just reading God’s words in the OT.

    So I guess I’m in the clear.

    #944949
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    If you deny the Son, that means you also deny the Father, because the two work together. They ARE ONE.

    🙏

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