John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,821 through 24,840 (of 25,997 total)
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  • #944950
    Nick
    Participant

    Such obvious contempt for God and His ways.

    yet he can post in the believer’s section?

    #944951
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Can you show me in the OT where it says I must believe in the Messiah for salvation?

    Better yet, explain how Jesus can be the Messiah since he was conceived of the spirit and NOT from the seed of David. This actually poses a problem, because either the spirit did conceive the child in Mary and therefore Jesus is NOT of the seed of David OR Joseph did sleep with Mary, got her pregnant, thus making Jesus from the line of David (this actually creates other issue, fornication); but now this creates two liars of Matthew and Luke because they claim “divine” conception. Can you explain it; what’s the truth?

    #944953
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Oops, that previous post was meant for you not Danny.

    #944954
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Nick

    you: “Such obvious contempt for God and His ways. yet he can post in the believer’s section?”

    me: Obviously you don’t read the left side of your bible, I am simply repeating what is there. Since you are unable to answer questions, I will spare both of us the trouble and tell you to start reading the prophets.

    I detect fear in your words as there’s no response or correction to errors in thought; just your typical attacks. To then say I have contempt for God (the sound of desperation of one who has no idea how to respond to what was previously written to others) when I have taken God from the proverbial back burner where christianity has placed HIM and moved HIM to the front. Funny you can’t even see that…sad really.

    Good luck to you Nick,

    #944955
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT

    Isaiah 59:2
    But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    Sin separates us from God since Adam and Eve….If God through the Son, sent from the Father, had not approached the first couple, humanity would have had no hope….(Genesis 3: 8-24)

    🙏

    #944956
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Isa 59:2 doesn’t explain why I need a Messiah for salvation. This verse states it is sin/iniquity that separates us from God. Nowhere does it state because of this separation we need a Messiah to get back to God. God said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and your sin will be remember no more. Since sin will separate us from God, all we need to do to restore the “connection” is to repent, turn from our sin, and turn back to God. Where is Jesus required in this?

    My relationship is now with the Father. Think of it this way, a family consisting of a father, mother, and two children; do the children have to go thru the mother to get to the father or can the children go directly to the father. Of course the children can go straight to the father, they have a relationship, a connection, a bond; isn’t this the same with our Father in heaven? Explain why I need to go thru anyone to get to my Father? Having to go thru someone creates a separation and removes any personal connection.

    You didn’t explain the Jesus immaculate conception thing and how Jesus could be the Messiah since he was conceived of the spirit and not of the seed of David. Is the spirit the son of David?!?

    #944958
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……You said…..>Isa 59:2 doesn’t explain why I need a Messiah for salvation. This verse states it is sin/iniquity that separates us from God. Nowhere does it state because of this separation we need a Messiah to get back to God. God said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and your sin will be remember no more. Since sin will separate us from God, all we need to do to restore the “connection” is to repent, turn from our sin, and turn back to God. Where is Jesus required in this?

    First of all…….Do you even know what an “iniquity” is?

    secondly, you are right We don’t need Jesus, to be forgiven sins “and ” iniquities.  Where did Jesus ever say we did?  Did he not tell us to pray in this way……..> “our Father”, (both his and our) Father  who is in heaven , holy be your name, thy kingdom come and thy will be done.  Forgive us our sins and transgressions as we forgive those who trespass against us, give us this day our daily bread, and let us not be lead into temptation, but deliver us from evil . For yours is the kingdom and the power forever.  Please note by using the words “our” and “us”, Jesus was including himself in that prayer also.

    I do agree with you that we are not saved by Jesus’ life, that saved him not us, because God the Father holds every person accountable for his or her own sins “and” iniquities.  Jesus demonstrated to us all how to have a right “relationship with God the Father, and it is exactly the same as he had.  He simply showed us all the “WAY” , to have that relationship and it is exactly the “way” his “relationship” is and was.  I have said over and over , “to all “, that Jesus “DEMONSTRATED “, HOW TO HAVE THAT “RELATIONSHIP “, WITH GOD THE FATHER.

    Jesus didn’t pay “our sin”, debt off,  we must all “REPENT”  by receiving the Holy Spirit , which gives us  “repentant” hearts,  which is a sole act of God the Father.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

    #944959
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You’re not helping DD by telling him
    among others:
    “Please note by using the words “our” and “us”, Jesus was including himself in that prayer also.”
    1)Jesus never had to confess a single fault to God, so it is a big error to say that Jesus included himself in this prayer.
    Jesus gave this model of prayer to the disciples who asked him “how to pray” and Jesus gave them the model that we find in the gospels.
    2) When Jesus says this prayer, he puts himself in the place of the disciples who must say this prayer with all their heart and not mechanically.

    3) YOU WROTE:
    you are right We don’t need Jesus, to be forgiven sins “and” iniquities. Where did Jesus ever say we did?

    Me

    IN JOHN 1 IT IS WRITTEN

    29)The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, 👉which taketh away the sin of the world.👈

    Why don’t you ever talk about this?

    👉which takesth away the sin of the world.👈

     

     

    GENE, WHY
    it is written about Christ?

    Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and 👉he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.👈

     

    Behold the Lamb of God, 👉which taketh away the sin of the world.👈

    👉HE BARE THE SIN OF MANY 👈 AND👉 MADE INTERCESSION👈 FOR THE TRANSGRESSORS.

    DOESN’T THIS HAVE A BIT TO DO WITH FORGIVENESS OF SINS?

    🙏

    #944961
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    First, no response to post #944944 directed to you? Would love to hear your thoughts on those questions.

    Second, please enlighten me to the definition of “iniquities.” I was using words from two different translations.

    Third, you keep saying Jesus isn’t required for the forgiveness of sin and you ask where did Jesus ever say this:

    I will point you to Matt 26:28 “for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Jesus, specifically his blood, is for the forgiveness of sin.

    Let’s look at Act 4:11 “This one is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, that has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among people by which we must be saved.” Salvation only comes thru Jesus and salvation only comes thru the forgiveness of sin. (Luke 1:77)

    Col 1:13 “He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” It is through the “son” there is “redemption” and is by his blood there is forgiveness of sins.

    Going back to your original statement/claim of Jesus not being needed for forgiveness of sin, explain why Jesus says is blood is needed and why the apostles also say the same thing. You question what I believe; yet, deny what the NT says. So Jesus wasn’t just “being and example of how we are to live”, he was saying “I am mankind’s only source for forgiveness”; which is contradictory to what God said in the OT.

    #944962
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    IN ISRAEL BEFORE CHRIST

    a) Every day two lambs were offered on the altar of burnt offering, one in the morning and one in the evening, for the benefit of each of those who dwelt within the limits of Israel. Foreigners and gentiles were also included. They were not based on repentance and confession. No questions were asked. the lambs were offered as a continuous burnt offering (Exodus 29:38-42). Being a human being was all that was necessary to be under the protection of God’s abundant grace.

    (b) This is the Gospel in “shadow,” the “moon” of Revelation 12:1. The meaning becomes clearer when the “sun” of the New Testament rises: “God was in Christ, reconciling the world with itself” (2 Corinthians 5:19)
    The daily service of the two lambs was a ministry for the benefit of the whole world. When Jesus came to ask John to be baptized, he refused. Jesus had to give him a Bible study there, in the water, to make him understand that He was the Lamb symbolized by the daily sacrifice. “And John resisted him no more” (Matthew 3:15).

    (c) The next day, John introduced Jesus as “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Not “probably” or “maybe” or “he would like to”. Nor “the Lamb who takes away the sin of some.” Why this universal sacrifice of atonement? “He himself is a propitiation for our sins, not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

    (d) The incense offered on the altar of incense, which burned continuously or daily, was also a type or representation of the universal ministry of intercession. Only the unbroken blood of Christ can preserve this wicked world from destruction (Revelation 8:3-5). When he ceases to present his blood, the time of trouble will come.

    Thanks be to God for “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”! There can’t be better news. Good news for you and for me, if we respond to his ministry in the most holy place “as long as we can tell today.”

     

    God bless

    #944963
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    Hi C,

    We know from Ps 104 that the Spirit creates.

    We know that Jesus was conceived in, and born of Mary.

    No suggestion in scripture that she was not the mother of the Lord Jesus.

    Are you telling us a conceptus was placed in the womb and she was only a surrogate mother?

    Me: HUMBLY SPEAKING, AND GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, THOUGH A SINNER AND DUST OF THE EARTH;

    I will start with this scripture by Jesus:

    Matthew 22:21 They say to him: Caesar’s. Then he saith to them: Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s;

    and to God, the things that are God’s.

    THUS WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    GIVE GOD, THE THINGS THAT ARE HIS:

    SPIRITUAL.

    AS FLESH, THE WAY YOU PRESENTED THINGS, COUNTS FOR NOTHING IN GOD’S OWN WORK!

    YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS ONLY CARNAL I’M AFRAID, AND GOD’S SPIRITUAL TASK IS SIMPLY NOWHERE. ESPECIALLY WITH YOUR CONCLUSION OF A SURROGATE MOTHER BY WHICH YOU ELIMINATED GOD’S HIDDEN TASK OF OUR REDEMPTION, WHEN SCRIPTURES FURTHER DOWN, ARE MORE THAN CLEAR.

    NOW, I TELL YOU AND WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON.

    You: We know that Jesus was conceived in, and born of Mary.

     No suggestion in scripture that she was not the mother of the Lord Jesus.

    TO START WITH: JESUS NEVER CALLED MARY “MOTHER”

    You: We know that Jesus was conceived in, and born of Mary.

    I AGREE ONLY IF YOU ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THE ABOVE  ARE ALL RELATED TO GOD’S SPIRITUAL TASK OF OUR REDEMPTION

    FROM OUR SATANIC CARNAL TASK ON ADAM’S SIN.

    ONLY FOR OUR SAKE, JESUS WAS BORN OF

    A “WOMAN”

    AND ONLY IN GOD’S OWN TERMS!!!

    AND DEFINITELY NOT IN HUMAN SATANIC TERMS OF THIS WORLD IN EVERY SENSE!

    THE ENTIRE REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD WAS AND IS ALL SATANIC, AND GOD FOR SURE WAS AND IS NEVER SUBJECT TO SATAN NO? WELL CLEAR IN

    John14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh,

    and in ME HE HATH NOTHING.

     John16:33These things I have spoken to you,

    that in me you may have peace.
    In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence,

    I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD

    ALSO, THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD FROM ADAM’S SIN BECAME INDEBTED TO SATAN, ONCE ADAM REJECTED GOD’S WILL AND MADE USE OF SATAN’S MAIN ASSET WHICH IS
    SIN, AND BY SIN DEATH.

    NOW IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH GOD’S WILL, DIVINE, ON SATANIC EARTH AGAIN, ONLY A DIVINE DISBURSMENT THROUGHOUT IS JUSTIFIED.
    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    Jesus SPIRITUAL process annulled and brought to futile the entire process of this CARNAL SATANIC world, and God by Jesus’ spiritual process in CREATION, BIRTH, and REDEMPTION established for eternity:

    A NEW “SPIRITUAL” CREATION which included also A NEW FLESH PERFECT BODY, JERUSALEM, THE BRIDE!

    John 4:34 Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me,

    that I may PERFECT his work. 

    2 Corinthians 5:17 If then any be in Christ A NEW CREATURE, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made NEW.

    Now to:

    Isaiah 66:7 Before she was in labour, she brought forth; before her time came to be delivered,

    she brought forth a man-child.

    GOD IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD NO?

    IN JESUS, HE DEFINITELY ACTED LIKEWISE! NO?

    GOD HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE FILTHY SATANIC REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN RACE, IN RELATION TO

    HIS OWN UNIQUE SPIRITUAL DIVINE REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS OF THE HOLY GHOST IN ORDER FOR HIS SON TO BE SENT ON THIS PLANET AS

    THE TRUE FREDEEMER! IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS ON EARTH,

    EXCEPT SIN! ATTENTION PLEASE:

    AS FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S OWN WORK!

    IT IS HIS SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL HIS WORK!

    You: Are you telling us a conceptus was placed in the womb and she was only a surrogate mother?

    Scripture:

    Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her:

    HAIL, full of grace,

    the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

    JUST REFLECT ON THE WORD “HAIL” 

    THE ARCHANGEL GABRIEL GREETED MARY WITH,

    IN THOSE DAYS!

    THE ONLY SUCH GREETING WAS ” HAIL CAESAR”

    34And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done,

    because I know not man?

    TO BE CLEAR: NO MAN NO  SPERM!

    GOD DOESN’T NEED THAT FILTHY SATANIC STUFF!
    35And the angel answering, said to her:

    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
    and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee.
    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    the Son of God. 

    TO BE CLEAR AGAIN: THE HOLY GHOST, IN JESUS’SOUL.

    A SPIRITUAL LUMINOUS BODY, THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD.

    Psalm 104:2 and art clothed with light as with a garment….

    NOT THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD ” MADE FESH.

    NOW,  AFTER JESUS THE SON OF GOD, CAME OUT OF MARY,

    BORN OF THE SPIRIT IN FULL LIGHT.

    THE FATHER PRONOUNCED HIS WORD AND FURNISHED JESUS WITH HIS FLESH BODY, THE SON OF MAN, IN THE SAME WAY HE DID TO ADAM AND EVE,

    Genesis 3: 21And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife,

    garments of skins, and clothed them. 

    PERSONIFIED IN JESUS. ADAM THE LIVING SOUL,  IN THE HOLY GHOST AND EVE THE MOTHER OF ALL FLESH, IN “THE WORD”,

    THE SOUL AND THE FLESH OF JESUS RESPECTIVELY!

    IN ORDER TO REDEEM THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE BORN ANEW ALL IN HIM, THE SECOND ADAM! 

    Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: ….

    27:And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him:

    male and female he created them.

     

    Luke 1:46 And Mary said:

     My SOUL doth MAGNIFY the Lord.

    IN WHAT MANNER?

    AND WHOSE SOUL IS MARY’S

     

    47And my SPIRIT hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?

    WHOSE  SPIRIT IS MARY’S

     

    48Because he hath regarded the      HUMILITY of his handmaid

    WHAT DOES THE WORD “HUMILITY” STAND FOR?

     

    John19:26…..Woman, behold thy son.

    27After that, he saith to the disciple:

     Behold thy mother.

    WHAT ARE THESE TITLES GIVEN BY JESUS IN THAT PARTICULAR INSTANT  ALL IN HIS HANDS, UNOFFICIALLY GLORIFIED, IN FULL POWER, John 13:3

    STAND FOR 

    THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES FURNISH US WITH ENOUGH INSIGHT OF WHO AND WHAT IN THE TRUTH MARY, IS AND WHY SHE IS

    MOST FAVOURED BY GOD, BOTH AS A HUMAN BEING AND AS A SPIRITUAL BEING, IN GOD’S SPIRITUAL HIDDEN AND MYSTERIOUS TASK IN ORDER FOR MARY TO FURNISH HUMANITY WITH THE SON OF GOD AND REDEEMER OF THE HOLY GHOST.

    THUS, WITHOUT THE LEAST DOUBT MARY IS

    OUR SPIRITUAL MOTHER, as much as Eve is our carnal mother!

    NOW, FROM GOD’S PERSPECTIVE THAT IS MORE THAN AN ENORMOUS  DIFFERENCE FROM A SURROGATE MOTHER! WHY?

    JESUS AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, AND AS YOU SAID “THE SPIRIT CREATES” WAS IN MARY’S HEART/SOUL, HER CREATOR ON HER CONCEPTION IN HER MOTHER’S WOMB!

    FULL OF GRACE!

    ON MARY’S BIRTH “THE WORD” WAS MADE FLESH FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME ON EARTH IN RELATION TO THE NEW CREATION; ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM

    JESUS, BY HIS SPIRIT, FURNISHED US WITH A SPIRITUAL MOTHER FOR THE NEW CREATION ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM AND ALL FOR HIM!

    MARY, WITH JESUS’SPIRIT, “THE WORD”  THE SON OF MAN, IN HER SOUL/HEART, AND THE HOLY GHOST THE SON OF GOD IN HER SOUL/MIND,   THOUGH BORN OF HER, IN JESUS THE MAN!

    REMAINED IN HER FULL OF GRACE,

    SHE WAS THE BEGINNING OF A NEW CREATION.

    THE NEW LIVING SOUL!

    SHE REPLACED ADAM THROUGHOUT! 

    NOW TO:

    Matthew 1:18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph,

    before they came together, she was found with child,

    of the Holy Ghost. 

    Nothing else! for God’s sake!

    NO SPERM NO EGG, NO MAN, NO WOMAN!

    From God’s perspective!

    I repeat: “More of the Holy Spirit than of Mary”

    19Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately. 20But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David,

    fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife,

    WHY FEAR NOT, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON, THAT PHYSICALLY SPEAKING, THE FACT THAT JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, OF THE HOLY GHOST, SPIRITUALLY CONCEIVED,  NO ONE WOULD HAVE THE LEAST  AWARENESS  THAT MARY WAS CONCEIVED WITH JESUS CONFIRMED BY JESUS IN:

    John3:6 That which is born of the flesh,

    IS FLESH;

     

    and that which is born of the Spirit,

    IS SPIRIT.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944964
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    If Jesus is conceived of the Holy Spirit, then he is not of the “seed” of David, and therefore is automatically disqualified as being the Messiah. Now what?

    You: “NO MAN NO  SPERM! GOD DOESN’T NEED THAT FILTHY SATANIC STUFF!”

    Me: Are you saying God’s design and creation is filth!!??!?!?

    Are you going to “Hail Mary full of grace”; how catholic of you. Nothing like making an idol of the woman Mary.

    #944966
    Nick
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You have sadly made a shipwreck of your faith.

    Craving for knowledge and understanding and certainty you have become lost.

    Instead you need wisdom which James told us was available to all.

    You need to find again the anchor for your soul, a hope so sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb 6

    The anchor is connected to God, Who knows how everything fits together.

    #944967
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….Jesus’ life (his blood) was an example for the forgiveness of sins.  That is not the same as saying he Paid our sin debt “for us” .  If we “drink” (take to ourselves to live as he lived) we are drinking (taking to ourselves “his life”, by conforming to the “way” he lived).  That is exactly what the words to, “eat and drink” means. It means we must conform “ourselves”, to the “way” he lived in our relationship with God the Father.

    As I have said before “Jesus “demonstrated ” , to us all “HOW” to have a right relationship with God the Father.  He did it all for us in this sense,  not that he paid off our sins .  We must repent of our own sins, Jesus even said, “to him that “overcomes”, I grant to sit with me in my kingdom, “even as I have overcome”,  and am sit down in my Fathers kingdom .   No difference we must also overcome the same way Jesus did.

    The requirements for us to be in the kingdom of God are no different than it was or is for Jesus. We must overcome the “exact same way, he did”> That way is complete and total Faith and Trust in God the Father, the same Faith and trust Jesus himself had, by the same Spirit of the Same God .

    To answer your question  about what is an “iniquity”   , it is a “type”  of sin”  that type of sin is a sin that  has the appearance of something  good, but is actually evil. This world is full of iniquities,  in fact we are told this……“because iniquity shall abound the love of many  will wax cold”.  Our leaders make some things sound good , but the end is bad for us all, that is an iniquity.  It’s a false narrative that corrupts what’s good and right.  Remember Kora and what he was telling the people, and some of the people were following him,  and turning against Moses,  sounded good to the people, but it was evil,  and he and his family paid the price for it.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

     

     

    #944968
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Hi Gene,

    You said: Jesus’ life (his blood) was an example for the forgiveness of sins.

    Me: The Bible says otherwise. Ephesians 1:7
    In whom we have redemption through his blood, 👉the forgiveness of sins👈, according to the riches of his grace;

    Amen.

    #944969
    Berean
    Participant

    AMEN DD

    Jesus IS the Lamb OF God Who Take away the sin OF the World.

    🙏

     

    #944977
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    If Jesus is conceived of the Holy Spirit, then he is not of the “seed” of David, and therefore is automatically disqualified as being the Messiah. Now what?

    Me:  With every respect, your username should be 

    BLINDTRUTH!

    NOW READ PLEASE:

    John 1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    What does the above scripture tell you clearly?

    IT IS PRECISELY THE FACT THAT JESUS IS CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, THAT CONFIRMS HIM

    THE SEED OF DAVID!

    What is THE SEED OF DAVID?

    THE SEED OF DAVID IS

    THE WORD” JESUS AS A SPIRIT, HIS CREATOR IN DAVID’S HEART/SOUL

    IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY! THE FIRST IN ALL GOD’S WORK IN CREATION. ALSO IN ORDER FOR DAVID TO BE HIS FATHER, IN THE SAME WAY, MARY WAS ALSO HIS MOTHER IN HIMSELF SINCE ALL BY HIM…..

    HER CREATOR IN HER HEART/SOUL IN HER MOTHER’S WOMB!

    THUS JESUS, AS A SPIRIT WAS BOTH DAVID’S SPIRIT, RELATED TO THE

    SON OF MAN

    AND MARY ‘S SPIRIT RELATED TO THE

    SON OF GOD,

    IN THEIR SOUL/HEART, THEIR CREATOR! 

    Acts 13:22 I have found David, the son of Jesse,

    a man according to my own heart,

    who shall do all my wills. 

    How come David is according to GOD’S OWN HEART?

    WHO IS GOD’S OWN HEART?

    CONSIDERING GOD IS A SPIRIT?

    Psalm 22:30And to him my SOUL shall live:

    and my seed shall SERVE him.

    Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins:

    thou hast PROTECTED me from my mother’s womb.

    IN WHAT WAY DID JESUS “THE WORD” AS A SPIRIT, PROTECT DAVID

    FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB? READ HEREUNDER NOW:

    14I will praise thee, for thou art fearfully magnified: wonderful are thy works,

    and my SOUL knoweth right WELL.

    HOW COME DAVID’S SOUL KNOWS GOD’S ATTRIBUTED RIGHT WELL?

    NOW, WITH YOUR ASSUMPTION ABOVE YOU SIMPLY CONCLUDED THAT WITHIN THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE SCRIPTURES THERE’S ONLY

    ONE TYPE OF SEED! IS IT SO?

    And ACCORDING TO YOU that is the filthy stuff ADAM ACQUIRED ON HIS SIN!

    THE HUMAN SATANIC SPERM!

    Rev.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb,

    which was slain from the beginning of the world.

    9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 

     

    Me:“NO MAN NO  SPERM! GOD DOESN’T NEED THAT FILTHY SATANIC STUFF!”

    YOU: Are you saying God’s design and creation is filth!!??!?!?

    Me: read ALL the above again and PONDER WHAT GOD DID CREATE,

    AND WHAT THE MAN ESTABLISHED WITH HIS SIN!

     

    1 Corinthians 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat:

    we are made as the filth of the world, 

    and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

    offscouring: debris. rubbish. scrap. trash.

    DT. ANSWER PLEASE: IS THE ABOVE A REFERENCE TO GOD’S DESIGN AND CREATION?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean:

    from all your filthiness,…

    DT. ARE YOU IN THE POSITION TO REVEAL WHEN IN ACTUAL FACT THE ABOVE DECLARATION BY GOD

    OCCURRED?

    IF IT DID OCCUR FOR YOU?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #944979
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny…….If you are “IN” Him, and he “IN” you, then you will be doing the exact same thing he was doing in this world.  What do you think this means,…..>Eph 4:13….> “Till we all come in the unity of the “FAITH” , and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “PERFECT MAN”,  unto the measure of the stature of the “FULNESS” of Christ.” 

    Danny do you see what you are doing, your making Jesus he “object”, of your worship, rather then seeing him as a fellow human being , showing us all how to have a right relationship with God the Father.  That is exactly what Satan wants you to think, “worship the messenger”,  rather than the one who sent him. “.  That takes the form of “idolatry “, God the Father will not accept “Idolatry”.  Satan knows that, and his false teaching about Who Jesus is, has infected nearly all, and  modern Christianity has fallen for that “LIE”  .  2 Ths 2.  That “LIE” is about who Jesus “really” is.  God the Father is not second to anyone, nor is anyone, “EQUAL TO HIM” either.  Remember what Jesus said was the ‘greatest commandment was ?,   “You shall love the LORD your God with “all” your heart, with “ALL” your soul, and with “ALL” your might”>  Jesus is not your , mine, or anyone’s God. There is “ONLY” ONE TRUE GOD, just as Jesus himself said….“this is eternal life, that they may know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD”, and Jesus who you have sent”.  Jesus was a human being exactly as we are , not a God of any king, if he were here he himself would tell you that very same thing.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny………gene

    ,  

    #944981
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Hi Gene,

    Revelation 1:5
    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, 👉and washed us from our sins in his own blood,👈

    Do you agree?

    #944982
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..You said…….>I will point you to Matt 26:28 “for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”Jesus, specifically his blood, is for the forgiveness of sin.

    My answer to this is,  The blood of Jesus simply meant “his life”,  which was poured out for the forgiveness of sins.  Now what does that mean?, it means Jesus’ “life”, was poured out “by God the Fathers Will”,  to demonstrate,  I say “DEMONSTRATE”, to us all, what kind of “life”,  it takes to please God.  It was in that sense that Jesus died, by putting (his) “OWN” Will to death, in complete “OBEDIENCE”, to the Will of the Father.    It’s all about “obedience “,  and sometimes “obedience” requires sacrifice. But remember what,  Samual told King Saul,  “OBEDIENCE is more than sacrifice”. 

    GOD the Father  “gave” him over to death, to Demonstrate to us “All”, what kind of “FAITH”  it takes to be Obedient to him, but we must also come to that same point in our relationship with God.  God the Father must become our “FIRST LOVE”, even ahead of Jesus himself, and that is the requirement of the,  “New Covenant ”  or agreement,  we must all come to, if we are to inherit the kingdom of God.

    Jesus whole work on this earth was to bring us to the same relationship he has and had with God the Father.  Jesus was never about himself, he was about the “WILL”  of,  God the Father “ONLY”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth…………gene

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