John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,401 through 24,420 (of 25,999 total)
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  • #943966
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    What you need to do is forget everything you have been taught about Isa 53; better yet, go verify everything you’ve been taught…is it truth?

    For clarity, in what context are you speaking when you ask, “the nation of Israel, has also never done any of those things mentioned in Isa 53.” Are you speaking of verses 1-9 or 10-12? This question may get answered as I continue.

    Isa 53 cannot be read and understood starting in verse one, this is part of the last “Servant Song” and must be read starting in chapter 52:13. You don’t read a novel starting in the middle, neither should you read this “song.”

    The key to understanding this “song” is to know who is speaking where; In 52:13-15 God is speaking, HE states “My servant” (start reading in chapter 41) is Jacob/Israel and how HE will lift His servant up, restoring the nation of Israel. Next God describes the condition of the nation as being so “marred” it’s unrecognizable; this is not a physical appearance, but the state the nation is in. Then HE finishes with how the other nations will be startled/shocked by this restoration. At the start of chapter 53 we have the response from the “shocked” nations; who continue speaking through verse 9. In verses 10-12 Isaiah is speaking God’s words.

    Let’s go a little deeper; this “song” can be broken into four parts:

    52:13-15 – God describes the suffering and eventual restoration of the servant (Israel) and it shocks the nations.

    53:1-3 – The nations restate what God said in 52:13-15. (reread it)

    53:4-9 – The nations give their explanation of why Israel suffered.

    53:10-12 – God’s explains why Israel suffered and the reward when they turn back to HIM.

    I will be honest with you, since I have begun studying this, I can no longer see Jesus in these verses. I would highly recommend going to chabad.org and read the Isaiah passages there, skip your KJV and go to the source…Hebrew; after all, they did write the OT. If you want another good read and study tool, find “The Twenty Four Books of the Holy Scriptures” translated by Isaac Lesser and make sure it’s the study one that has the notes in it.

    I challenge you and anyone who took the time to read this, to go verify what I have written; read it, study it, but please verify it for yourself. If I am wrong, show me and explain why; I’ll own my mistakes.

    I hope this makes sense as I’m only skimming the surface; if you need clarification or questions, just ask. I may not get back immediately; have been extremely busy and have to much going on.

    #943969
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Hate to break it to you, not one of those verses cited spoke of a “sacrificed” Messiah. Keep guessing. Start in chapter 41 and read through 55, then tell me who the “servant” is. If you don’t read this section of Isaiah, placing it in the context it was written, you’re understanding is limited to what you have been told it says. You’re simply parroting what you have been told to believe.

    So now I am “wicked” because I don’t have the same belief as you concerning the verses you cited?!?! Before you imply this accusation, reread the above section. If after reading you still believe it’s talking about Jesus, then you will have a series of questions you will need to answer.

    Jesus wouldn’t have been crucified if they knew he was actually the Messiah; who were the Jews expecting in their Messiah? What events were suppose to happen for the Messiah to show up? What was the Messiah suppose to do when he showed up? None of these questions can be answered by looking in the NT, you need to go back to the OT.

    You tell me to think; that is exactly what I have been doing. I have been comparing “prophetic quotes” in the NT to where it was referenced in the OT and they are completely taken out of context or have been reworded…that’s deception. These so called “prophecies”, because it “sounds like” what happened to Jesus, have been rubber stamped and called prophecy that points to Jesus, when they clearly don’t.

    Here’s something to “think” about, why is virtually every religion arguing over what the NT says and then claiming they’re right and everyone else is wrong. This isn’t unity, but chaos. This website is the perfect example of this. We’re not discussing truths, we’re arguing over religious beliefs.

    If you want more to start “thinking” about:

    When did God ever require a human sacrifice? “Pagans” did that.

    Why does Christianity use fear to convert people? If you don’t accept Jesus as your savior, you’re going to Hell.

    Explain Isa 42:8 when compared to John 13:31-32; Matt 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26. Something is amiss; did our unchanging God, change?

    #943972
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carnel,

    Please enlighten all of us with your “super spiritual” thinking. Fix our “carnal” mindset and explain this verse, apparently my reading and comprehension skills aren’t as developed as yours.

    If God isn’t the one who “reveals”; who does!

    If God doesn’t know what is in darkness; who/what is in this particular darkness?

    If light isn’t a characteristic of God; who/what is this light?

    Read:
    Job 12:22 “He reveals mysteries from the darkness and brings the deep darkness into light.”

    Job 26:6 “Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon hath no covering.”

    Psalm 36:9 “For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.”

    You read this chapter “more than you think”; I don’t think you read the chapter at all, because the only thing you have pulled out is verse 22 and concluded there is something deeper to be had. Just read the words, Daniel is simply praising God. Are you seriously getting Jesus out of this single passage and somehow Daniel is prophesying about it?!? That’s nuts! What you are doing isn’t “spiritual” awareness of God’s Word, it’s twisting HIS word to get your belief to say what you want it to.

    YOU: “BOTH OF US ARE PULLING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION! I MEAN FROM THE SPIRIT SIDE OF IT, YOU FROM DARKNESS, and I FROM THE LIGHT”!

    ME: Fascinating reply. First, we aren’t pulling the same rope; I have no idea what you are pulling at. I’m “darkness” and you’re “light”, it’s a good thing your ego isn’t to big; you may not be able to see the computer screen tomorrow.

    YOU: “ I SIMPLY CONVINCED MYSELF MORE OF THE TRUTH!”

    ME: This is a weird statement to me; you have to convince yourself of the truth? Then to call me blind…I think one needs to look in a mirror before you make comments like this.

    #943973
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Why does Christianity use fear to convert people? If you don’t accept Jesus as your savior, you’re going to Hell.

    Me

    In churches where there is no Spirit of God this may be the case, but personally I was not converted by the fear of hell, but by the love of God in Jesus. Christ.

    🙏

    #943974
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    I wasn’t asking about your personal experience; I am talking about the general state of the church today and the conversion process used. Here is what’s written on two separate “christian” tracks picked up in the last year:

    Written on a fake “trillion dollar bill”, “The trillion dollar question: will you go to heaven when you die? Here’s a quick test. Have you ever told a lie, stolen anything, or used God’s name in vain? Jesus said, “whosoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Have you looked with lust? Will you be guilty on Judgment Day? If you have done those things, God sees you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous adulterer at heart. The Bible warns that if you are guilty you will end up in Hell.”

    “God made each of us with a purpose – to worship HIM and walk with HIM. Life doesn’t work when we ignore God and HIS original design for our lives. We selfishly insist on doing things our own way. The Bible calls this sin. We all sin and distort the original design. The consequence of our sin is separation from God – in this life and for all of eternity.”

    What’s the driving force behind these tracts? Are you going to say Love? If “you are guilty you will end up in Hell” or “you will be separated from God for all eternity”; where, in Hell. This isn’t “love”, this is “fear.” 2.5 Billion people call themselves Christian; how many of these are seeking after God or did they become “Christians” for “fire insurance” out of “fear” of going to Hell?

    I find it odd how people can be so adamant in what they believe, but have no idea why they believe it. I’m questioning what I was told to believe for most of my life; but, I can’t find it written anywhere within the scriptures. That tells me it’s man made, what does it tell you?

    I asked a “simple” question, where in the OT does it state the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind? This question has caused everyone to run in the opposite direction. Are you verifying what is said to be truth or do you pull out your handy “I Believe Button”?

    #943975
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desire truth,

    You: Please enlighten all of us with your “super spiritual” thinking.

    EVENTUALLY YES I WILL DO, IN FULL HUMILITY, AS I ONLY ENLIGHTEN YOU WITH WHAT THE LIGHT FROM ABOVE FURNISHES ME WITH!

    WHERE READING SCRIPTURE REALLY, DOES NOT COUNT AT ALL;

    IT IS FAITH, FASTING, and PRAYING!

    Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 8For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. 9Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? 10 Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent? 11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children:

    how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that

    ask him?

    Fix our “carnal” mindset and explain this verse, apparently my reading and comprehension skills aren’t as developed as yours.

    If God isn’t the one who “reveals”; who does!

    If God doesn’t know what is in darkness; who/what is in this particular darkness?

    If light isn’t a characteristic of God; who/what is this light?

    Me: Fine, you asked the above questions!

    In my post, I suggested cutting and pasting my wording, simply in order to be both efficient and also aware of what specifically you are referring to, especially the fact that instead of answering my question you opted to ask three more questions.

    Thus here is my wording again to make it clear enough what we are specifically talking about:

     

    You: You then go on to claim “darkness” is a title?!?!?

    Me: For you, it isn’t, A CARNAL MINDED PERSON, with every respect.

    For me just read hereunder!

    Psalm 18:11He made DARKNESS his secret place;….

    2 Chronicles 6:1Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in

    the thick darkness.
    Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness, 

    Daniel 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things:

    he knoweth what is in the darkness,
    and the light dwelleth with him.

    You: Have you completely gone off the deep end?

    Darkness ISN’T a title, it’s the lack of light,

    Me: Now just explain WHAT DARKNESS IS in the above scriptures, especially

    THE LAST ONE, please 

    You: Because you wanted me to focus on Daniel 2:22, that is all I will speak on:

    “He reveals the deep and the hidden things;

    Me: WHO REVEALS?

    You: he knows what is in the darkness, 

    Me: WHO IS, AND WHAT IS HIDDEN IN THE ABOVE PARTICULAR DARKNESS?

    You: and the light dwells with him.”

    Me: ATTENTION PLEASE:

    WITH WHOM DWELLS THE LIGHT?

    You: As a spiritual understanding,

    Carmel minded person,
    with every respect, you have come to the conclusion that

    “darkness” in this passage is a title.

    Now read my question again please:

    Me: Now just explain WHAT DARKNESS IS in the above scriptures, especially

    THE LAST ONE, please 

     

    NOW, IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE, I expected your answer not MORE QUESTIONS HEREUNDER:

    You: If God isn’t the one who “reveals”; who does! 

    Me: KID’S STUFF again!

    If God doesn’t know what is in darkness; who/what is in this particular darkness?

    Me: KID’S STUFF again!

    If light isn’t a characteristic of God; who/what is this light?

    Me: KID’S STUFF again!

    AS SOON AS YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION, I MEAN EXPLAIN WHAT THE WORD “DARKNESS” IS IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE, TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION THAT YOU STUDIED WELL THE RELATED SCRIPTURE, I AM NOT IN THE POSITION TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ABOVE, SINCE IT IS PRECISELY YOUR ANSWER THAT WOULD EVENTUALLY DETERMINE MY ANSWER IN RELATION TO YOUR QUESTIONS ABOVE!

    You: Read:
    Job 12:22 “He reveals MYSTERIES from the darkness and

    brings the DEEP DARKNESS into LIGHT.”

    You: Please enlighten all of us with your “super spiritual” thinking.

    FIRST AND FOREMOST, IT IS NOT MY SUPER SPIRITUAL THINKING AT ALL, BUT AS I SAID, LGHT FOM ABOVE, 

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT

    THROUGH FAITH……..

    REFLECT PLEASE, TWO DARKNESS IN THE ABOVE VERSE YOU POSTED ARE MENTIONED,  

    THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT AND OPPOSING (TITLES)DARKNESSES!

    ONE A MERE DARKNESS, IN A WAY, and 

    ONE A DEEP DARKNESS!

    NOW GOD BRINGS THIS DEEP DARKNESS INTO

    LIGHT!

    ONE DOWN!

    ENOUGH TO MAKE YOU PONDER AND ACQUIRE 

    THE TRUTH

    YOU SIMPLY ARE REJECTING!

    John 14:6 Jesus saith to him:

    I am the way,

    and the truth,

    and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

     

    John 12:46I am come a light into the world;

    that whosoever believeth in me,

    may not remain in darkness.

    IS DARKNESS A TITLE IN THE ABOVE?

     

    Job 26:6 “Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon hath no covering.”

    Psalm 36:9 “For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.”

    You: You read this chapter “more than you think”; I don’t think you read the chapter at all, because the only thing you have pulled out is verse 22 and concluded there is something deeper to be had. Just read the words, Daniel is simply praising God.

    Are you seriously getting Jesus out of this single passage and somehow Daniel is prophesying about it?!?

    That’s nuts!

    What you are doing isn’t “spiritual” awareness of God’s Word,

    it’s twisting HIS word to get your belief to say what you want it to.

    WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!!

    Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy to dogs;

    neither cast ye your pearls before swine,

    lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you,

    they tear you.

    You: ME: Fascinating reply. First, we aren’t pulling the same rope; I have no idea what you are pulling at.

    I’m “darkness” and you’re “light”,

    it’s a good thing your ego isn’t to big; you may not be able to see the computer screen tomorrow.

    AGAIN YOUR PERCEPTION IS SIMPLY CORRUPTED, AND YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE WORD DARKNESS ONLY  AS EVIL!

    GOD IS ALSO DARKNESS!

    GOD LIVES IN DARKNESS!

    Psalm 139:11

    11And I said: Perhaps darkness shall cover me: and night shall be my light in my pleasures.

    12But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.

    The world is “darkness” in relation to GOD’S WORK!

    Job 12:22 “He reveals MYSTERIES from the darkness and

    brings the DEEP DARKNESS into LIGHT.”

    John 7:7 The world cannot hate you;

    but me it hateth:

    because I give testimony of it,

    that the works thereof are evil. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943976
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel

    I am super confused by what you’re actually looking for. I have already explained what I believe is happening in these verses. For some reason you believe there is more. All I read is Daniel praising God for revealing a dream that was “hidden.” Again, apparently my reading and comprehension skills pale to yours.

    Daniel 2:22 He reveals the deep and the hidden things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him.

    You keep asking what the “darkness” is as if it is a “being” and I told you it’s the lack of light. Is this not good enough for you? The “darkness” spoken of in Daniel is the same “darkness” spoken of in Gen 1:2 and the first thing God created was “light.” Then God separated the “light” from the “darkness.” What exactly are you looking for?!?

    Then you somehow believe because the “light” is “with” God that it too is a separate being. God is “light”; just like a lamp illuminates a room, what can be hidden from God? This would then make “light” a characteristic of God.

    This now twice I have answered your question of what the “darkness” means. What more can I say before you enlighten us with you vast “wisdom” that you claim comes from above? To which I must ask, where in the OT does it state the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind? Why won’t you answer that question?

    #943978
    carmel
    Participant

    .

    #943980
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hate to break it to you, not one of those verses cited spoke of a “sacrificed” Messiah. Keep guessing. Start in chapter 41 and read through 55, then tell me who the “servant” is. If you don’t read this section of Isaiah, placing it in the context it was written, you’re understanding is limited to what you have been told it says. You’re simply parroting what you have been told to believe.

    Lol. If I had an enemy and I had a plan to defeat him within the laws that I myself set, then I wouldn’t be stupid enough to divulge that plan verbatim like you are expecting. Think man think. I would speak the truth in a code to those who have the ability to read that code so that they wouldn’t be taken by surprise like my enemy would. This is how much of scripture works. The wicked will not understand. If you do not understand, then it is not my fault, only yours. This by the way is also how war works. Further, scripture often talks in context, but you need to see where it also refers to others and apply what it is saying accordingly.

    So now I am “wicked” because I don’t have the same belief as you concerning the verses you cited?!?! Before you imply this accusation, reread the above section. If after reading you still believe it’s talking about Jesus, then you will have a series of questions you will need to answer.

    Incorrect. I don’t make such judgements from my own standards. If scripture says it, and you fit the bill, then that is not me imposing my own standards on you is it?

    Jesus wouldn’t have been crucified if they knew he was actually the Messiah; who were the Jews expecting in their Messiah? What events were suppose to happen for the Messiah to show up? What was the Messiah suppose to do when he showed up? None of these questions can be answered by looking in the NT, you need to go back to the OT.

    Precisely why he was crucified. They were blind and did the will of God without realising it.

    You tell me to think; that is exactly what I have been doing. I have been comparing “prophetic quotes” in the NT to where it was referenced in the OT and they are completely taken out of context or have been reworded…that’s deception. These so called “prophecies”, because it “sounds like” what happened to Jesus, have been rubber stamped and called prophecy that points to Jesus, when they clearly don’t.

    Does Satan read scripture? Should God spell it all out so he can ruin God’s plan? The wicked will not understand. It is written in code so to speak.

    This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    Here’s something to “think” about, why is virtually every religion arguing over what the NT says and then claiming they’re right and everyone else is wrong. This isn’t unity, but chaos. This website is the perfect example of this. We’re not discussing truths, we’re arguing over religious beliefs.

    Because there is one truth and lies are countless. So there will always be people that represent a lie of some kind. But people who love truth will know the truth. You have to love the truth and Jesus Christ is the truth.

    and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    If you want more to start “thinking” about:

    When did God ever require a human sacrifice? “Pagans” did that.

    Due to His holiness, God decreed the need for such sacrifices, as humanity, being sinners, required a significant means to have their sins forgiven and restore their connection with God. Those who sought a genuine relationship with God and desired to commune with Him would, through faith, present these sacrifices as a means to establish that bond and fellowship with Him. Note, the sacrifice he accepted was that of animals not humans. Of course, God ultimately send the lamb of God to be sacrificed because it was one sacrifice that would end all other sacrifice. It is an eternal sacrifice that can cover all sin. Will you let the lamb of God’s sacrifice cover your sin or do you prefer not to deal with your sin, thereby being responsible yourself for it? Bear in mind that the following is written:

    The person who sins will die. 

    God sent the messiah to save you by becoming the lamb of God and being sacrificed once and for all. He died in your place and thereby satisfying the law that sin brings death. God then resurrected him from the dead and so it will be a resurrection of glory for all those in the messiah. I think that in the realm of eternity, that rebellion would happen eventually to a world and so God had this plan worked out from the foundation of the world as it is written.

    Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.  This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

    Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God

    Why does Christianity use fear to convert people? If you don’t accept Jesus as your savior, you’re going to Hell.

    I’m not a fan of mainstream religion. I am also not a fan of the mainstream media. But I love the truth and so am not against religion nor media. Just the mainstream because the world itself is the mainstream and the world is the enemy of those who belong to God’s kingdom. After all, the world runs on money and for money, men will do evil.

    Explain Isa 42:8 when compared to John 13:31-32; Matt 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26. Something is amiss; did our unchanging God, change?

    No time to even look at this now. Pose the question to me again if I haven’t given an answer in the next week or so.

    #943982
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    YOU: “If I had an enemy and I had a plan to defeat him within the laws that I myself set, then I wouldn’t be stupid enough to divulge that plan verbatim like you are expecting.”

    ME: Are you saying “Satan” was to stupid to understand what was written in the OT?!?! Now there’s a good laugh! What exactly was “hidden” in the OT that man was not capable of understanding at the time it was written?

    YOU: “If scripture says it, and you fit the bill, then that is not me imposing my own standards on you is it?”

    ME: However, it was YOU who implied I was “wicked” by using scripture. Own it!

    YOU: “They were blind and did the will of God without realizing it.”

    ME: You still have produced no scripture stating the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind from the OT. Paul used simple, plain language in his statement and there is NOTHING in the OT that states the messiah was to die for the sins of mankind. Who is the messiah the Jews are waiting for? The OT does talk about a messiah…is the Jewish messiah the same as the Christian messiah?

    YOU: “Should God spell it all out so he can ruin God’s plan?”

    ME: Please enlighten me, who is able to “ruin God’s plan”; are you saying God has no idea how it’s going to end? To say “Satan” could “ruin” God’s plan; is to say God isn’t all knowing and small.

    YOU: “people who love truth will know the truth.”

    ME: When everyone believes what they believe is truth, you end up with 30,000 different religions; then is it “truth” or is it “beliefs”?

    YOU: “God sent the messiah to save you by becoming the lamb of God and being sacrificed once and for all.”

    ME: Explain:

    Ps 51:16 “For You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; You take no pleasure in burnt offerings.” So what does God want; “17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart”

    Hosea 6:6 “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.” Here God desires “mercy and knowledge” and not “sacrifices and burnt offerings.”

    It seems the OT and NT are in conflict; how can this be justified away to make them agree? Is it time to reevaluate what Christianity is saying?

    YOU: “I’m not a fan of mainstream religion.”

    ME: Jesus taught those who disbelieve will be condemned; interpretation: believe in “me” to live for eternity; if not, be tormented for eternity, is this love or fear?

    #943983
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Don’t know the period means; if you sent something, it didn’t come through.

    #943985
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth, you said…….> If you want more to start “thinking” about:

    When did God ever require a human sacrifice? “Pagans” did that.

    My response would be…….>Did God ask ABRAHAM to sacrifice his Son? You see sacrifice is a sign of your faith ,  Jesus sacrificed himself to “demonstrate”,  what God the Father requires of us all.  He didn’t die to pay off our sin debt, but to show us All what is required of us all.

    It is in that “sense”,Jesus died for the sins of the entire world,  he is the lamb of God, sacrificed for, OR , “because of”, the sins of the world.

    Jesus’ “obedience ” through “FAITH”  in GOD , WAS to “demonstrate ” I say, to us all what is required to have a right relationship with GOD the Father.  ABRAHAM was wiling to make that sacrifice of “obedience” of his Son Issac, which “demonstrated” his love and obedience to God, therefore he is called the Father of the “FAITHFUL “.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

     

    #943986
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    What about what I wrote concerning Isa 53?

    I knew someone would respond with the Abraham/Isaac “event.” Yet, Isaac wasn’t sacrificed; this was a test by God. Isaac’s blood wasn’t spilled on an alter, so there was no sacrifice done. God tested, Abraham passed, and his reward was: Gen 22 “17. That I will surely bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand that is on the seashore, and your descendants will inherit the cities of their enemies. 18. And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you hearkened to My voice.”

    YOU: “Jesus sacrificed himself to “demonstrate”, what God the Father requires of us all.”

    ME: Where in scripture does God tell us we are to “sacrifice” ourselves? This has to be in the OT, the NT wasn’t around for another 400 years after Jesus and the OT is what the apostles “taught” from.

    YOU: “It is in that “sense”, Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, he is the lamb of God, sacrificed for, OR , “because of”, the sins of the world.”

    ME: Feel like I am going in a circle with this question, were in the OT does it state Jesus (the messiah) was to die for/because of the sins of the entire world? Why can’t anyone answer this without distorting scripture?

    I have another exercise for you, hopefully you did the last one:

    I would like you to read John 19:31-37, this way everything will be in context, but focus on verses 36 & 37. These two verses are said to be fulfillment of scripture with verse 36 referring back to Exodus 12:46 and verse 37 referring back to Zech 12:10. Please read them and explain how these OT passages apply to Jesus; but, don’t just read the single verse, read the surround verses also.

    #943988
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth………Jesus said……> Luk 9:22 ..>The son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes,  and “BE SLAIN” ,  and be raised the third day.”  And again in Matt…..>“if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up “his cross”, and follow me.  25, ” for (or because) whosoever will save his life, shall lose it, and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.”  Desire Truth,   Are you now starting to reject Jesus as those Old Testament blind Jew’s did and still do? 

    And also remember. It also says,  “without a sacrifice there is no forgiveness of sins”. We must all come to the point that we are willing to sacrifice our own lives to the “Will” of God the father, exactly as Jesus and his disciples did. IMO.

    As far as you question on Isaiah 53 goes , please tell us who is the “we” and the “our”  mentioned there are?  You should understand that they could not be the ones the prophesy was addressing.

    peace an love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

    #943990
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I have already explained who is speaking where in the fourth “Servant Song” in post #943966. The shocked nations are speaking in verses 1-9 and giving their explanation why the Israelite nation suffered. The nations are the “our” and “we.” Simple! But to understand it you have to unlearn what you have been told. You have to apply the words in the context they have been written. You MUST read the enter “Servant Song.”

    You quote Luke 9:22, here again, Jesus was to be slain and be raised on the third day. Paul states the same thing in I Corinthians 15 and says “according to scripture.” This means it is written in the OT, produce such scripture or was Paul quoting Luke?

    My conclusions have nothing to do with “blind Jews”; my conclusions stem from wanting the truth and not relying on a “pastor” to tell me what to believe and everyone who states they don’t, is lying. There is nothing anyone believes that hasn’t put there by someone else – myself included. The difference is I’m asking questions because the “narrative” coming from Christianity doesn’t make sense.

    Did you look at the John 19 passage and compare what John says to what the OT says? Judging from your response to the “our” and “we”, my guess is no. How shocked would you be to find out a majority of the OT quotes in the NT have been modified? I’m not talking word nuances, but complete modification. Words being stripped away and new ones added in. The worst book that does this is Hebrews; who’s author is unknown. We have know idea who wrote this book, but because it has this “Christology” in it, we’ll include it too. A book that wasn’t in the original cannon. How many modifications are acceptable and still call the NT the “inspired word of God”?

    #943991
    Berean
    Participant

     

    God bless

    #943992
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: Danny, Danny, Danny, you still haven’t answered the question of where it states in the OT the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind.

    Me: Why are you lying? I gave you Isaiah 53!

    #943994
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny

    You have yet to explain why this chapter is talking about the Messiah. Do that first before you call me a liar. I did offer an explanation on what’s happening in Isa 53 and have explained it isn’t speaking about the Messiah; post #943966. Where are your responses?

    The reality is, you haven’t told me where it states the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind; you have stated where you have been told it sounds like it’s speaking of a messiah. Why is this the only place in the entirety of the OT people have for their proof of the “Messiah dying for the sins of mankind”?

    Paul gave two things that “according to scripture” the Messiah was to do: “die for the sins of mankind” and “be buried and then raised up on the third day.” Now give me both…I won’t hold my breath.

    #943995
    carmel
    Participant

    .

    #943996
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel

    Apparently what you write is being hidden from me or to whomever you are responding to; just another period ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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