John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #943918
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I realize what I have been writing lately goes against everything I have said in the past; but, what Paul said about the Messiah is huge by claiming “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried, and raised on the third day. Paul wasn’t saying when you read between lines of the OT you will find Jesus, he was saying it is written in the OT. This means there are passages that explicitly state this and I have yet to find anything written saying “the Messiah” was to take on the sins of mankind and die for them, let alone be raised from the dead. I’ll repeat myself; if these statements cannot be found in the OT, Christianity has a huge problem.

    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    I’m not sure that Israel has a single soul.

    Anyhow, Isaiah 53. The New Testament presents a unified and exclusive understanding of Isaiah 53 by recognizing Jesus of Nazareth as the suffering servant. His crucifixion and resurrection are depicted as the realization of the prophecy.

    But you disagree and say it is Israel instead and I have little time right now to address this, although I have addressed this in the past. For now, I post this excerpt from Wikipedia.

    Isaiah 52:13–53:12 makes up the fourth of the “Servant Songs” of the Book of Isaiah, describing a “servant” of God who is abused but subsequently vindicated.[2] Major themes of the passage include:

    • Human opposition to God’s purposes for the servant. The servant has an exalted status in the eyes of God, but people despise him and consider him hated by God (Isa 52:13-53:3).
    • The servant’s violent torture and death. This passage uses violent language to describe the fate of the servant, including suffering, smitten, afflicted, wounded, crushed, bruising, cut off, anguished and exposed to death.
      Prophetic incredulity. The prophet questions whether anyone will believe what he is reporting (Isa. 53:1).
    • The servant’s innocence. In the moment of crisis, the servant is described as innocent of retaliation (Isa 53:7), violence, or deceit (Isa 53:9).
    • Blessings upon his persecutors. As a result of the servant’s sufferings, his persecutors are given peace (Isa 53:5), healing (Isa 53:5), release from their guilt (Isa 53:6, 12) and escape from punishment (Isa 53:8).
    • The vindication of the servant after death. After his violent persecution and death, the servant is given long life and prospers the purpose of the Lord (Isa 53:10).
    • Extending righteousness to others. The righteous servant will “make the many righteous,” thus extending his righteousness to others (Isa 53:11).
    • Forgiveness and intercession. Because of the servant’s actions, “the guilt of the many” is removed from them (Isa 53:6, 12) and they receive intercession on their behalf from the servant (Isa 53:12).

     

    #943922
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth, you said……..> , I realize what I have been writing lately goes against everything I have said in the past; but, what Paul said about the Messiah is huge by claiming “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried, and raised on the third day. Paul wasn’t saying when you read between lines of the OT you will find Jesus, he was saying it is written in the OT. This means there are passages that explicitly state this and I have yet to find anything written saying “the Messiah” was to take on the sins of mankind and die for them, let alone be raised from the dead. I’ll repeat myself; if these statements cannot be found in the OT, Christianity has a huge problem.

    When you say the “spirit of truth” teaches all things and is no lie, this “spirit of truth” that everyone claims is revealing the “truth”, why is there zero agreement on what is plainly said within the pages of the bible? When crossing between religious beliefs, no one agrees on what the NT says; everyone has there own interpretation. How can this be possible IF the “spirit of truth”, who cannot lie, is in everyone? We should all be one in thought and purpose; yet, we are completely divided.

    Desire Truth……> First of all where does scripture say “everyone has the Spirit of truth”.  In fact “only a few have it”,   Wide is the way that leads to destruction and many go in threat  thereof , but “NARROW’ is the way  to life and “FEW’ there be that find it.  Properly 95% of all going to churches do not have the “SPIRIT” OF TRUTH ABIDING IN THEM.  

    Now that being said……we need to understand that Jesus most definitely was a suffering Servant,  and he also was a “Messiah”.   Just like Mosses who spoke about him was also.

    I think I see the problem your dealing with concerning Jesus dying for the sins of individual people as in”paying off” their sin debt, for them,  I also agree Jesus paid no one’s sin debt off, we will all suffer death for our own sins.   We must understand in what context Jesus died for “all”our sins.
    what did Jesus “demonstrate to us all” by his death on the cross, or tree?  That our sin are paid for and therefore we have no Sin? “No” ,  he did not die to pay anyone’s sin debt off, you’re going to die for that, not Jesus. ” is there unrighteousness with God, God forbid. “Everyone shall give account for there “OWN” sins before God, neither shall the Father pay for the sins of his son nor the son pay for the sins of the Father for everyone will give account for his own sins, says the LORD our God.”

    So then how was it that Jesus died ,  did he die “for” or “because of”?  Big difference  “for” implies he paid them off,  but “because off, implies dosent mean he paid off anyone’s sins.  it implies implies something different,  like for instance Jesus’ death was to demonstrate to us all the right way to have a “right” relationship with God the Father,  again his death was to “DEMONSTRATE ”  HOW WE MUST LIVE IN ORDER , TO HAVE A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THE FATHER, and it is “EXACTLY” the same as his IS AND was. That has nothing to paying off “YOUR” SINS.  

    THE WHOLE IDEA OF PAYING “OFF” SOMEONES SIN FOR THEM , goes totally again, the righteousness of God> not to even mention against his own words.

    Except we become ‘EXACTY” as Jesus Christ, we will in no wise enter in to the Kingdom of God,  just as Jesus himself said,  “he that overcomes “EVEN”.  as I have, I will grant to sit with me in my kingdom even as I have “OVERCOME” , and am sitting down in my Fathers kingdom.”   

    The proper way to understand this is to realize Jesus died to “DEMONSTRATE”, TO US ALL”, what is required “OF US ALL” .  and in that “sense” he died for or (because of) the sins of the world .  Remember what he said,  when ask what the greatest commandment was,  ……>”you” shall “LOVE”,  the LORD , your God, with “ALL” you heart , “ALL’ your mind, “ALL” your soul, and “ALL ” YOUR STRENGTH.

    This is the GREATEST OF “ALL” THE COMMANDMENTS.  GOD THE FATHER MUST BE OUR TRUE and “ONLY”,  “FIRST LOVE”,   ALL THE REST must be second loves.  

    “He that has an ear let him hear” 

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

     

    #943923
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I Cor 15:3,4 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

    I agree with you, individually we will be held accountable before God for our sins, our unrighteousness. Every major translation however states Christ died “for” our sins; not “because” of them. Using your definition Christ paid off our sins according to Paul. This is why I want the passages in the OT to be given; where are they? Paul said it was there and the OT should confirm it; not buried between the lines, but explicitly stated. If this isn’t in the OT as Paul stated, Christianity has a HUGE problem! Christ’s death on the cross is the basis of Christianity and if that “cornerstone” is kicked out from under it, Christianity will be proven false and the entire NT means what?

    The implications of this are massive. I can no longer just accept what I am told is truth; show me where in scripture what you say is truth, which is why I want those passages. I hope you fully understand the gravity and where I’m coming from? I’m not here to fight anyone on this issue; this is a plea for answers and if these questions can’t be answered, what is the next step? That scares the ____ out of me!

    #943924
    Berean
    Participant

    @desire Truth

    The answers have been given for a long time, so why say that it is not so?

    #943925
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    No one has provided a single passage that states what Paul said in I Cor 15. Every passage given as “proof” has either been read between the lines or taken out of context. Therefore nothing given! Truth isn’t what you believe or want it to be, truths are cold, hard facts. Paul made the claim, now where are the facts?

    Isa 53 has been shown to not be pointing to Jesus, he didn’t have a long life or many children. WHEN did Jesus have to “acknowledge guilt”? Thought he was “sinless.” Yet Isa 53 is all about Jesus.

    Psa 16 a phrase in that chapter is used for proof; who’s speaking in this Psalm? Every “I”, “me”, and “my” are referring to the author, David. Are you saying every “I”, “me”, and “my” refer to David except in verse 10? How does that make any sense? Read the chapter in its entirety and when you get to verse 10, explain how this can possibly be talking about Jesus?

    Of course we can’t forget our “Jesus jackpot” Psa 22, another Psalm of David. In this Psalm David is lamenting and is in anguish, asking God where HE is because his enemies are closing in on him. From 22 to the end David is praising God because he knows God heard his pleas and will be his rescuer. How do you see Jesus in this, because there are parallels? Your reaching!

    These are the three “proof texts” I have been given for I Cor 15, and not one says the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind. Not one says the Messiah was to be raised from the dead. What other verses in the OT support Paul’s claim? If you can’t come up with anymore, we have a problem; what I have been give are not proof.

    #943929
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You; @ Carmel,

    I am stunned by your response!

    Me: Read what I made clear to you:

    YOU AND I ARE PULLING THE SAME ROPE ALRIGHT BUT

    IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION!

    WE SHOULDN’T WASTE TIME!

    You: None of what you said is supported by scripture.

    Me: The above is of no use unless you specifically mention what I said and also contradict me BY USING SCRIPTURE NOT WITH YOUR USELESS OPINIONS. Also please no more of your blahs, which I will leave out, and replace them with DOTS, as to me it is a clear sign of your weakness.

    You: …..you have created Jesus, a self proclaimed MAN, into someone who is greater than the creator of everything……

    Please If you expect my answers, BE SPECIFIC BY CUT AND PASTE MY WRITING!

    You: You then go on to claim “darkness” is a title?!?!?

    Me: For you, it isn’t, A CARNAL MINDED PERSON, with every respect.

    For me just read hereunder!

    Psalm 18:11He made DARKNESS his secret place;….

    2 Chronicles 6:1Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in

    the thick darkness.

    Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness, 

    Daniel 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things:

    he knoweth what is in the darkness,

    and the light dwelleth with him.

    You: Have you completely gone off the deep end?

    Darkness ISN’T a title, it’s the lack of light,

    Now just explain WHAT DARKNESS IS in the above scriptures, especially

    THE LAST ONE, please 

     

    where did you come up this statement?

    Then to say it refers to Jesus??!!? Jesus is “Darkness”?!? Is Jesus Satan?

    AGAIN, refer to the scriptures above, please!

    If Jesus is “darkness” how can “light” be in him? If Jesus is “darkness” and the NT is all about Jesus, does that mean the NT is deception?

    AGAIN I REPEAT, READ THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES PLEASE!

    Then to say Jesus is the “spirit of God”; I thought Jesus was God…….

    You need to explain this passage Isa 45:5-7 “I am HaShem, and there is none else, beside Me there is no G-d; I have girded thee, though thou hast not known Me; 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am HaShem; and there is none else; 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am HaShem, that doeth all these things.”

    ME: NOW READ THE REST OF ISAIAH 45

    13 I have raised him up to justice,

    and I will direct all his ways:

    he shall build my city,

    ME: WHAT CITY?

    THE NEW JERUSALEM!

    THE HUMAN BODY IN FULL GLORY!

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN!

    THE ABODE OF GOD THE FATHER ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD AS

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!

    and let go my captives,

    WHAT CAPTIVES!

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD  UNDER THE DOMINION OF SATAN FROM EVE’S SIN!

    PURIFIED AND PERFECTED ALL SPIRITUAL,

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST, BOTH SPIRIT, AND FLESH  ON  JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS, ISAIAH 53:9 

    not for ransom, nor for presents, saith the Lord the God of hosts.

    ME: FOR GOD THE FATHER!

    14 Thus saith the Lord:

    The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles:

    WHO ARE BOUND WITH MANACLES?

    ALL THOSE BELIEVERS WHO DIED FOR THE SAKE OF JESUS UP TO THIS DAY!

    and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God,

    and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God,

    the God of Israel the saviour.

    16They are all confounded and ashamed: the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.

    17Israel is saved in the Lord with as eternal salvation: you shall not be con- founded, and you shall not be ashamed forever and ever.

    If God does all things where exactly does Jesus factor into all this?

    Read the above, please!

    If Jesus is “darkness”,

    AGAIN, refer to the scriptures above, also keep in mind that: 

    LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS, 

    AND DARKNESS COMPREHENDED NOT!

    God created him, so how exactly could Jesus preexist, let alone be the creator?

    Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

    23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

    24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

    25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

    26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

    27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

    28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

    29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

    30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him:

    and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

    31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943932
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……Attributes are not beings , not now nor ever where. They are what beings can poses , “as in “the attributes of God, are seen by the things created “,  Forcing our text to say what they absolutely do not say , is all you seem to be able to do.  Wisdom is an attribute not a “real person”,  as you falsely describe it, anyone can poses it, scripture says…….>Proverbs 3:13-18

    “Happy is the “man”  that fines “WISDOM”, and the “man”  that gets understanding.  For the merchandise of it is better the the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof then fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things you can desire are not to be compared to her. Length of days are in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honor .  Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her, and happy is everyone that retains her.”

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel…………gene

    #943933
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire truth…….The word “for” ,  in English used in our translations come from at least 5 different Greek words,  which they translated into the English word for.  Most all of them carry the meaning “because of”.  For,  always carries “causality ” with it.  Especially in old English writings.

    so as I said I see Jesus’ death as a result of “all’ human sins,  not that his death “paid” for them , but Jesus did pay with his life for us all , by sacrificing his life to “demonstrate” to us all what it takes to have a right relationship with God the Father.  That relationship is centered in “Complete” FAITH AND TRUST IN GOD THE FATHER., Just as Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all. IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene

    #943935
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……Attributes are not beings , not now nor ever where.

    Me: When will you learn, that you never put God and his characteristics in the same basket as humans? 

    All God’s attributes are spirits! Read:

    John 6:63 It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth:

    the FLESH profiteth nothing.

    The words that I have spoken to you, are

     SPIRIT AND LIFE.

    ANSWER Gene, 

    ARE YOUR WORDS SPIRIT, NEVER MIND LIFE?

    You: They are what beings can possess,

    BUT THERE ARE DIVINE BEINGS, AD INTRA, WITHIN GOD, and 

    CREATED BEINGS, AD XTRA, OUTSIDE OF GOD!

    NOW READ HEREUNDER AND ANSWER, ABOUT THE ONLY DIVINE HUMAN BEING WHO WALKED ON THIS PLANET!

    DID HE POSSESSED THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD or

    SEVEN ATTRIBUTES OF GOD

    Isaiah 11:1 AND there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root.

    2And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him:

    (1) the spirit of wisdom, and

    (2) of understanding,

    (3) the spirit of counsel, and

    (4) of fortitude,

    (5) the spirit of knowledge, and

    (6) of godliness.

    (7) 3 And he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord.

     Now to

    1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the prudence of the prudent I will reject. 20Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world?

    Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    21For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world, by wisdom, knew not God, it pleased God, by the foolishness of our preaching, to save them that believe. 22For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumbling block, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: 24But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks,

    Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 

    THE POWER OF GOD IN 

    THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE and 

    THE WISDOM OF GOD IN

    “THE WORD” JESUS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE.

     INTEGRATED AS ONE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH ON THE CROSS

    GLORIFIED AS

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN!

    25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men;

    and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    26For see your vocation, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble: 

    27But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen,

    that he may confound the wise;

    and the weak things of the world hath God chosen,

    that he may confound the strong. 

    28And the base things of the world, and the things that are contemptible, hath God chosen,

    and things that are not,

    that he might bring to nought things that are:

     29That no flesh should glory in his sight.
     30But of him are you in Christ Jesus,

    who of God is made unto us wisdom,

    and justice, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, as it is written:
    He that glorieth, may glory in the Lord.

    ME: Forcing our text to say what they absolutely do not say , is all you seem to be able to do. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943943
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel you said…….>DID HE POSSESSED THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD or

    SEVEN ATTRIBUTES OF GOD

    Isaiah 11:1 AND there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of his root.

    2And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him:

    (1) the spirit of wisdom, and

    (2) of understanding,

    (3) the spirit of counsel, and

    (4) of fortitude,

    (5) the spirit of knowledge, and

    (6) of godliness.

    (7) 3 And he shall be filled with the spirit of the fear of the Lord.

    ME……is that not what I said ? ,  “WISDOM” is a “ATTRIBUTE”  OF God?  wisdom is not a “person”,  but an “Attribute” a person can have in him, it’s even see in the animals of this earth.

    You trying to separate Jesus from the rest of humanity and turn him into a  God,  or as you say it a “GODMAN”, IS A LIE. Fabricated by,   Satan himself.

    Like I said, your pigeon is “2Ths2”.   That will judge you at the return  of Jesus , right from his very own lips. Along with the other 90% of “so-called “Christianity”. Because they as  you have turned Jesus into your GOD, and you bow and worship him as such. You reward will be the same as theirs, unless you repent!.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel…………gene

     

    #943944
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Let’s say the meaning is “because of”; please find in the OT where the Messiah was to die “because of” the sins of mankind. Again, Paul did state “according to scripture”, this means it’s in the OT.

    #943945
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    YOU: “Now just explain WHAT DARKNESS IS in the above scriptures, especially THE LAST ONE, please”

    ME: Because you wanted me to focus on Daniel 2:22, that is all I will speak on: “He reveals the deep and the hidden things; he knows what is in the darkness, and the light dwells with him.”

    As a spiritual understanding, Carmel minded person, with every respect, you have come to the conclusion that “darkness” in this passage is a title. Did you read this chapter? My guess is NO; had you read it you wouldn’t be making the claim.

    This chapter begins with Nebuchadnezzar having a dream and doesn’t understand it. He calls his magicians, conjurers, sorcerers, and astrologers to interpret the dream; except he isn’t going to tell them what the dream was, they were to tell him the dream and interpret it. If they can’t, they will be put to death. The absurdity of this is obvious as it’s impossible to interpret a dream you haven’t heard. Since they can’t interpret the dream, they’re all killed and a decree goes out to kill all the “wise men” of Babylon. When they came to Daniel, he inquired why such a severe punishment. Once explained Daniel went before the king and asked for time and he would explain the dream. It was granted and in a vision the dream was revealed to him. It is after this revelation Daniel (verses 20-23) “blessed/praised the God of heaven.”

    It is in this blessing where verse 22 falls where Daniel is praising God.

    20 Daniel said, “Let his name, the name of God, be blessed throughout the ages,

    for the wisdom and the power are his.

    21 And he changes the times and the seasons,

    and he deposes kings and he sets up kings;

    he gives wisdom to wise men

    and knowledge to men who know understanding.

    22 He reveals the deep and the hidden things;

    he knows what is in the darkness,

    and the light dwells with him.

    23 To you, O God of my ancestors,

    I give thanks and I give praises,

    for the wisdom and the power you gave to me,

    and now you have made known to me

    what we have asked from you,

    for you have made known to us the matter of the king.”

    To whom is Daniel calling “darkness” here? The passage is explicitly stating Daniel is speaking to God and it is God who “knows what is in the darkness” and “light dwells with” God. What can remain hidden from God? Can “darkness” hide anything from God’s eyes? What is difficult about this passage and how do you come up with “darkness” being a “title” here? The best one could come up with in this passage is “darkness” being an action and referring to the “dark” thoughts of men. Instead of always reading between the lines and being “Carmel minded”, just read the words; they are simple.

    P.S. My explanation to one inquiry. Do you see why I made a blanket statement how none of what you wrote is supported by scripture? How can I address all of what you said without writing a short novel? This should have triggered you to prove what you said is scriptural, not deflect it back.

    Still waiting for how Jesus, “according to scripture”, was to die for the sins of mankind.

    #943947
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth………Have you ever thought that the nation of Israel, has also never done any of those things mentioned in Isa 53,  we must establish who was Isaiah talking about in, Isa 53:2…”.and when “We” shall see him” ……..>who is the “we” mentioned there? If the we is Israel then the passage is not talking about Israel right? . also the term “WE” is also used in other chapters.  In chapter 4  the term “OUR” is used several times also. So who is the “our” referring to? ,  if we tie the prophet Isaiah to the people of Israel, then  that person in the prophesy could not be referring to Israel at all, right?.  It has to be referring to someone else other than the Nation of Israel, if we conclude the “we and, the our” include Isaiah and his people Israel right?

    Maybe that can help us get a better sense of who and what Isa 53: is talking about brother.

    By the way, your post to Carmel was right on,  I never seen a person that could screw up, twist, and abuse our scriptural text as good as he can.

    peace and love to you and your Desire Truth……….gene

    #943949
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Whoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father. 1 John 2:23

    Repent, for the sake of your soul!

    #943950
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Danny, Danny, Danny, you still haven’t answered the question of where it states in the OT the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind. Tell me, what’s more important; your religion or truth? Before you go completely religious on me, I was where you are about a month or so ago; that is until I started verifying what I have been told was truth AND what was said to be “written” in scripture. The moment you begin that journey, will mark a new and eye opening day in your life.

    Happy studying, if you dare…

    #943951
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Lord of glory was predestined to be crucified for our sakes

    Isaiah 42:1-9,

    Isaiah 49:3-13,

    Isaiah 52:13-53:12.

    The wicked will not understand. It is hidden from them.

    No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”

    Think @desiretruth

    If it was written down in the format you are expecting, then the Kingdom of Darkness would have understood to not crucify the Lord which would have thwarted God’s plan of redemption. Instead, they foolishly took the bait and thought by killing the Lord that they would enjoy the spoils.

    But those who are born of God will see and understand.

    Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

    God’s plan is still progressing. But not all want to be involved in that plan. But they are involved whether they like it or not. It’s up to us to play the part that leads to the Kingdom of Heaven. But not all shall enter.

    #943953
    carmel
    Participant

    Gene,

    You: ME……is that not what I said ? ,  “WISDOM” is a “ATTRIBUTE”  OF God?

    Me: Read again:

    THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM…….

    WHAT IS A SPIRIT?

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spirit

    spirit
    1 of 2 noun

    1
    : an animating or vital principle held

    TO GIVE LIFE to physical organisms

    2
    a supernatural BEING or ESSENCE: 

    Acts 19:15 And the EVIL SPIRIT answered and said,

    Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? 16And the man

    in whom the evil spirit

    was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

    1 Samuel 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that

    the evil spirit from God came upon Saul,

    and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul’s hand. 11And Saul cast the javelin; for he said, I will smite David even to the wall with it. And David avoided out of his presence twice.

    John 15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even 

    the Spirit of truth,

    which proceedeth from the Father,

    he shall testify of me:

    John16:1 2I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he,

    the Spirit of truth,

    is come, he will guide you into all truth:

    for he shall not speak of HIMSELF;

    but whatsoever HE SHALL HEAR,

     that shall  HE SPEAK:

    and HE WILL SHOW you things to come. 

    14He shall glorify me:

    for he shall receive of mine,

    and shall show it unto you. 

    15All things that the Father hath are mine:

    therefore said I,

    that he shall take of mine,

    and shall show it unto you.

    The above SHOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR YOU TO SEE and PERCEIVE 

    WHAT A S SPIRIT IS ENJOY!

    I MEAN WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IN YOU, WHETHER IT IS  GOOD OF GOD , OR EVIL

    OF THE DEVIL,

    YOU, AS A HUMAN IN FLESH AND BLOOD, WOULD NOT BE ALIVE!

    You:  wisdom is not a “person”,  but an “Attribute” a person can have in him,

    it’s even see in the animals of this earth.

    Me: Are you saying that animals possess wisdom?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943954
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Desiretruth, and in this particular case, Gene,

    You: Because you wanted me to focus on Daniel 2:22, that is all I will speak on:

    “He reveals the deep and the hidden things;

    WHO REVEALS?

    You: he knows what is in the darkness, 

    WHO IS, AND WHAT IS HIDDEN IN THE ABOVE PARTICULAR DARKNESS?

    You: and the light dwells with him.”

    ATTENTION PLEASE:

    WITH WHOM DWELLS THE LIGHT?

    You: As a spiritual understanding,

    Carmel minded person,

    with every respect, you have come to the conclusion that

    “darkness” in this passage is a title.

    Did you read this chapter?

    Me: MORE THAN YOU THINK!

    I MUST KEEP ON REMINDING YOU THOUGH:

    I LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURE FROM THE OTHER END OF THE ROPE,

    UNFORTUNATELY, YOU ARE LOOKING AT, CARNAL,

    THUS,  BOTH  OF US ARE PULLING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION!

    I MEAN FROM THE SPIRIT SIDE OF IT,

    YOU FROM DARKNESS, and I FROM THE LIGHT! 

    THE WAY GOD SEES IT AND REVEALS HIS MESSAGE!

    Proverb 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes;

    but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    You: My guess is NO; had you read it you wouldn’t be making the claim.

    I SIMPLY CONVINCED MYSELF MORE OF THE TRUTH!

    THE TRUTH WHICH YOU 

    A CARNAL-MINDED PERSON, IS SIMPLY

    BLIND OF!

    WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    1Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of graces,

    but the same Spirit; 

    5And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord; 6And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. 

    7And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.

     8To one indeed, by the Spirit,

    is given the word of wisdom:

    and to another,

    the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

     9To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit; 10To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy;

    to another, the discerning of spirits;

    to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches. 

    11But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh,

    dividing to everyone according as he will.

    Me: In relation to 

    FAITH IN OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER JESUS CHRIST!

    OUR FIRST LOVE FOR THE SAKE OF 

    GOD THE FATHER!

    John15:5 I am the vine; you the branches:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943962
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel you SAID THIS………. .> THE SPIRIT OF WISDOM…….

    WHAT IS A SPIRIT?

    Here is your answer very simply put just for you ok……….Spirit “IS”  the “COGNICITI”, A PERSON or animal HAS, given them by God, it Leo’s who the person or thing is.   WEATHER  a “CLEAN OR UNCLEAN” person or thing.

    You my friend seem to lack that ability, when it comes to our Scriptures, you are unable to put them together rightly. Which seems to be obvious to everyone here.  But because God THE FATHER, exists there is hope for you and all,  remember what Jesus said (not me, but I do agree)  …….>“all things are possible with God”.

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel…………gene

    #943965
    carmel
    Participant

    .Hi Gene,

    You: Spirit “IS”  the “COGNICITI”, A PERSON or animal HAS, given them by God, 

    Google Search Results

    It looks like there aren’t many great matches for your search

    Me: Read again:

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spirit

    SPIRIT

    1 OF 2 NOUN
    1
    : an animating or vital principle held

    TO GIVE LIFE to physical organisms
    2
    : a supernatural BEING or ESSENCE: 

     

    You: “all things are possible with God”.

    But according to you, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE WITH GOD TO BECOME

    GODMAN IN JESUS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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