John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,361 through 24,380 (of 26,000 total)
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  • #943887
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    NOW if God says there are not any God besides him and he does not know “ANY” , THEN THAT MAKES HIM

    “THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD,

    even a simpleton can understand that.

    NO Gene,

    THERE WAS ONLY ONE WAY  TO ESTABLISH SOMETHING

    “TRUE”  on this planet in the OT
    NEVER MIND

    THE “ONLY” TRUE!

    AND NOT JUST BY SAYING SO! Read:

    John 8:17 And in your law it is written,

    that the testimony of two men is true.

    WHERE DID THE “FATHER” NOT JUST GOD,  PROVE IN THE OT. THAT HE

    IS THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD!

    NOW I WAS CLEAR ENOUGH IN SIMPLE PLAIN ENGLISH!

    DON’T BE STUBBORN!

    READ AGAIN:

     

    GOD THE FATHER IS FOR SURE

    THE TRUTH!

    BUT WHY DON’T WE READ IN FULL CLARITY IN THE OT.,

    THAT THE “FATHER” IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD?

    SHALL WE CONCLUDE THEN THAT THE FATHER IS NOT THE ONLY TRUE GOD, SINCE YOU SAID THAT WHATEVER IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE OT

    IT WOULD BE A LIE.

    ANSWER IS IT A LIE THEN THAT THE FATHER SPECIFICALLY IN FULL CLARITY IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, SINCE

    IT IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE OT.

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    OR IF YOU ACCEPT THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, EVEN IF NOT IN FULL CLARITY MENTIONED AS SUCH IN THE OT,

    WITH THE SAME ARGUMENT, SHALL WE ACCEPT THAT  JESUS IS

    THE ONLY TRUE

    GODMAN?

    EVEN IF IT IS NOT MENTIONED AS SUCH IN THE SCRIPTURE?

    NOW USING YOUR FAMOUS OPINION

    HOW CAN YOU DETERMINE THAT

    SOMETHING IS TRUE ON THIS PLANET?

    I AM WAITING PLEASE.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943889
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……what do you think the words,  “there is “NO” God besides me”. Means?, Are you so ignorant you can’t even put that together?, like I said even a simpleton can put that together. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel…….gene

    #943890
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Sorry, have been extremely busy and haven’t had time to respond.

    Agreed, Israel didn’t suffer for the “sins” of other nations, they suffered because they where disobedient to God, did their own thing, and were judged accordingly. However the words must be put into perspective of what is happening starting in Isa 52. Israel is being restored, God is calling his chosen people back to Jerusalem from the ends of the earth, out of their oppression. When reading 53 the nations of the world are shocked by the restoration of Israel, because they felt Israel was worthless and as you read verses 2,3 the nations said the Israelite’s where the lowest form of human life and they treated them as much. It is from the nations perspective who felt they were doing the will of God by punishing the Israelite’s and it’s the nations who say Israel’s punishment was because of their transgressions, not Israel making this claim.

    You asked about establishing an “intended timeline”; from Isaiah’s words, is it possible to suppose a timeline? I think this would depend on whether or not you believe it’s speaking of Israel or of Jesus. The previous chapter 52 speaks of a restoration of Israel; have God’s people returned from the ends of the earth as is being described? In 53, have the nations been “shocked” by Israel’s restoration? Has Israel turned back to God? If I where to guess…not yet. So from this perspective this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Now to make the claim it’s referencing Jesus; one has to explain who the “our” is in 53:1 because the “our” is also the “we”, “our”, and “my” used through verse 8. The one speaking in verse one is who is taking responsibility for all this bad being described. If we listen to the church and believe it’s speaking of Jesus, then the “our” is mankind; now I am curious of what the message is that couldn’t be believed. Are you confused yet?

    You quote “shall” from verse 2; PLEASE take your KJ Bible and throw it in the garbage. The translators of the King James modified the tenses of words, thereby corrupting the text and changing the original meaning. The word “vai Ya‘al” is the past tense word “grew.” Look at multiple translations and this IS confirmed. KJ is one of a handful that uses “shall”, placing the context of the verse into the future. Everyone lauds over the KJ version and elevates it as the “standard” of all “bibles”, but the translators changed the tenses of words to make a narrative work; and by changing it, have corrupted it. It’s becoming a book I look at less and less.

    You also mention “he” and it being singular; throughout the old testament the nation of Israel is referred to in the singular. God calls Israel HIS son (Ex. 4:23), this singular term applies to Israeli as a whole. In Hosea 11:1 “For, when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called My son.” Jer 31:8, 17, 19; Ephraim is spoken of in the singular. So the “he” fits very well with being Israel and makes more sense than being a reference to Jesus.

    There is a lot going on within these chapters and to understand them one must start at the beginning and not the middle. The sad part is modern Christians know very little of the old testament as most are taught that half is “irrelevant”, but is fill with great stories and subsequently don’t study the old as the new is more important.

    I think this is a fitting quote from Walter Brueggemann Ph.D. concerning Isa 53:

    “[A]lthough it is clear that this poetry does not have Jesus in any first instance on its horizon, it is equally clear that the church, from the outset, has found the poetry a poignant and generative way to consider Jesus, wherein humiliation equals crucifixion and exaltation equals resurrection and ascension.”

    #943893
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……what do you think the words,  “there is “NO” God besides me”. Means?,

    Are you so ignorant you can’t even put that together?,

    like I said even a simpleton can put that together. IMO

    Me: Gene, WE ARE DEALING WITH SPECIFIC WORDING,

    NOT WHAT WE CAN PUT TOGETHER!

    You: what do you think the words,  “there is

    “NO” God besides me”. Means?,

    ME: THERE YOU ARE!

    THE ABOVE WORDING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MINE!

    GOD CAN SAY WHAT HE WANTS!

    BUT HUMANS ALSO BELIEVE IN WHAT THEY  WANT, AS GOD GAVE THEM

    FREE WILL Mr. Gene!

    AS MUCH AS YOU BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU WANT, IN THIS CASE,

    THAT HUMANITY DOES NOT HAVE SUCH FREE WILL!

    Me:  NOW READ SPECIFICALLY AGAIN MY WORDING:

     

    WHY DON’T WE READ IN FULL CLARITY IN THE OT.,

    THAT THE “FATHER” IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD?

     

    AS YOU CAN WELL SEE AND READ!

    IN YOUR WORDING THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE WORDS,

    FATHER, ONLY,  and the most VITAL word

    TRUE!!!

    ANSWER Gene, IF YOU ALSO KNOW WHAT THE WORD

    “ANSWER” MEANS:

    WHY DIDN’T GOD  APART FROM  SAYING

    THERE’S NO GOD BESIDES ME,

    IN THE OT. EVER HIMSELF CONFIRMS THAT 

    HE IS ALSO  

    THE FATHER, ONLY, and TRUE ?

    NEVER MIND, I TELL YOU, Mr. Gene,

     

    BECAUSE GOD KNEW THAT FOR HUMANITY SPIRITUALLY DEAD,

    SATANIC, 

    TO BE CLEAR, SATAN, ALSO A SPIRIT LIKE GOD IS,

    and THEIR FATHER! John8:44,Ephesians 2:3.

    MUST BE PHYSICALLY  PROVEN ON THIS SATANIC PLANET NOT JUST SAY SO, THAT HE IS 

    THE FATHER, and THE ONLY one  TRUE!

    CONSIDERING THE FACT I REPEAT, THAT 

    SATAN THE FATHER OF LIES, ALSO CONCLUDED THAT

    HE IS THE ONLY GOD AND FATHER  OF THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD ON THIS PLANET! Ephesians 2:3, John8:44.

    AND ONLY ONE WAY LEFT FOR GOD THE FATHER TO OFFICIALLY ON THIS PLANET DETERMINE HE HIMSELF, SINCE THERE’S WAS NO GOD BESIDES HIM, 

    THE TRUTH!

    NOW YOU TELL ME MR. GENIUS!

    WHAT WAS THE ONLY WAY FOR GOD TO ESTABLISH HIMSELF

    NOT JUST THAT HE IS GOD, BUT ALSO, THAT HE IS 

    THE ONLY, “TRUE”, and  FATHER 

    of the HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD?

    AND ALSO SATANIC!

    CHILDREN OF WRATH! Ephesians 2:3 

    I AM WAITING!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #943894
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    What is this convoluted mess you speak?!?! God never referred to himself as a “Father”??!?! Is this a joke?!? Oh wait, God never referred to himself as the “TRUE” Father. Is it possible you can mince words any more than you do? I’m sorry, your falsehoods are getting tiresome!

    God speaking in Jer 31:9 “They went forth with weeping, and I will bring them back with consolation, causing them to lodge by the channels of waters in a straight way, and they shall not err in it: for I have become a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.” And HE never called himself a “father”?

    Jer 3:19 “And I said, So be it, Lord, for You said I will set you among children, and will give you a choice land, the inheritance of the Almighty God of the Gentiles. And I said, You shall call me Father; and you shall not turn away from Me.” Did God just refer to himself as “father”?

    Malachi 1:6 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master: if then I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am a Master, where is My fear? Says the Lord Almighty. You the priests are they that despise My name: yet you said, In what way have we despised Your name?” Isn’t God saying HE is a “father” that should be honored? Isn’t HE greater than an earthly father?

    I could get into passages where God refers to Israel as HIS son or child, thus invoking a fatherly relationship. Do tell all what it means to be a “true” father if God hasn’t demonstrated what it means to be a “true” father. Has HE not extended mercy, grace, loving kindness, or discipline to HIS chosen child like a “true”earthly father would extend to theirs?

    I do love me a good game of semantics!

    #943895
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You: @Carmel,

    What is this convoluted mess you speak?!?! God never referred to himself as a “Father”??!?! Is this a joke?!? Oh wait, God never referred to himself as the “TRUE” Father. Is it possible you can mince words any more than you do? I’m sorry, your falsehoods are getting tiresome!

    God speaking in Jer 31:9 “They went forth with weeping, and I will bring them back with consolation, causing them to lodge by the channels of waters in a straight way, and they shall not err in it: for I have become a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.” And HE never called himself a “father”?

    Jer 3:19 “And I said, So be it, Lord, for You said I will set you among children, and will give you a choice land, the inheritance of the Almighty God of the Gentiles. And I said, You shall call me Father; and you shall not turn away from Me.” Did God just refer to himself as “father”?

    Malachi 1:6 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master: if then I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am a Master, where is My fear? Says the Lord Almighty. You the priests are they that despise My name: yet you said, In what way have we despised Your name?” Isn’t God saying HE is a “father” that should be honored? Isn’t HE greater than an earthly father?

    I could get into passages where God refers to Israel as HIS son or child, thus invoking a fatherly relationship. Do tell all what it means to be a “true” father if God hasn’t demonstrated what it means to be a “true” father. Has HE not extended mercy, grace, loving kindness, or discipline to HIS chosen child like a “true”earthly father would extend to theirs?

    I do love me a good game of semantics!

     

    IT SEEMS TO ME THAT NOT EVEN YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO UNDERSTAND THE

    ACTUAL  VARIOUS MEANINGS AND REFERENCES TO THE WORDING YOU YOURSELF PRODUCED IN THE ABOVE!

    ANSWER PLEASE:

    HOW CAN GOD THE FATHER, A SPIRIT, MOST HOLY AND ETERNAL, CAN EVER BE

    THE GOD AND FATHER OF THE MORTAL AND CURSED HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD?

    WHEN THE HUMAN RACE HAD ONLY ONE FATHER IN RELATION TO THEIR MORTAL AND CURSED FLESH AND BLOOD?

    SATAN!  

    THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME INTO THIS WORLD

    IN FLESH AND BLOOD FROM HEAVEN!

    Me:  NOW READ SPECIFICALLY AGAIN MY WORDING:

     

    WHY DON’T WE READ IN FULL CLARITY IN THE OT.,

    THAT THE “FATHER” IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD?

    ONLY THE ABOVE WORDING I WANT TO FIND IN THE OT!

    WHY YOU MIGHT ASK?

    ALL THAT YOU PRODUCED ABOVE FOR A START,

    ARE ONLY REFERENCES TO

    THE JEWS OR ISRAELITES!

    I WAS CLEAR ENOUGH AND I SAID 

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE IN

    GENERAL!

    WITHOUT ANY EXCEPTIONS!

    NOW ALSO,

    PICK ANY VERSE FROM YOUR POST AND SPECIFICALLY EXPLAIN TO WHOM IT IS REFERRING!

    I TELL YOU STRAIGHT:

    IT IS NOT REFERRING TO

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE FOR SURE!

    ALSO, KEEP IN MIND THAT

    ISRAEL IS A SPIRITUAL NAME ATTRIBUTED TO JESUS, GIVEN BY GOD????

    THE TRUE ISRAEL!

    Hosea 1:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    NOT A CARNAL NAME LIKE JACOB, ATTRIBUTED TO

    THE MORTAL BODY OF JACOB! 

    THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL!

    LUCIFER!

    THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT DISTINCT AND OPPOSING REFERENCES!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #943896
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Jesus said (not me) …..> pray this way ,  “OUR” Father who art in heaven’’……. And again….> “how much more shall “YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER” GIVE the Holy Spirit to them that ask him”. So tell us what does the words “OUR ” and “YOUR” mean there to you, O  “self appointed”, wise  one? Obviously not the same as it does to the rest of all humanity.
    Face it Carmel, you haven’t a clue to what you are saying here.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #943897
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….I agree the king James, does have many Grammatical errors in it, many words are translated as much as ten different ways with ten different meanings in the text,  but I believe the Spirit of truth in us  gets us  to the right meanings.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

    #943899
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel…….Jesus said (not me) …..> pray this way ,  “OUR” Father who art in heaven’’……. And again….> “how much more shall “YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER” GIVE the Holy Spirit to them that ask him”. 

    So tell us what does the words “OUR ” and “YOUR” AND IT IT  mean there to you,

    Me: WHO SAID THE ABOVE STATEMENTS Gene?

    WHY IN THE OT. WE NEVER READ SUCH STATEMENTS?

    AND SINCE THEY NEVER APPEAR IN THE OT, AREN’T THE ABOVE AS YOU BELIEVE AND SAID SIMPLY

    LIES?

    Gene, I ASKED YOU QUESTIONS AND YOU NEVER ANSWERED ANY YET SPECIFICALLY!

    NOW THE LAST ONE IS THIS ONE HEREUNDER AND IT IS PRECISELY

    DIRECTED TO YOUR QUESTION ABOVE! READ:

    NOW YOU TELL ME MR. GENIUS!

    WHAT WAS THE ONLY WAY FOR GOD TO ESTABLISH HIMSELF

    NOT JUST THAT HE IS GOD, BUT ALSO, THAT HE IS 

    THE ONLY, “TRUE”, and  FATHER 

    of the HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD?
    AND ALSO SATANIC!

    CHILDREN OF WRATH! Ephesians 2:3 

    CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL! John8:44.

    I AM WAITING!

    YOU: O  “self appointed”, wise  one?

    THE ABOVE IS YOUR CORRUPTED  CARNAL REASONING!

    REFER TO MY POSTS AND VERIFY WHAT I ALWAYS SAY REGARDING WHAT I SAY AND REVEAL!

    AFTER ALL, YOU HAVE YOUR OWN FREE WILL. THOUGH YOU DON’T ADMIT IT!

    You: Obviously not the same as it does to the rest of all humanity.

    Face it Carmel, you haven’t a clue to what you are saying here.

    YOU NEVER PROVED IT YET!

    I AM NOT HERE TO PLEASE ANYONE, ESPECIALLY YOU WITH EVERY RESPECT UNLESS I DENY JESUS CHRIST IN 

    THE HOLY GHOST WHO GUIDES, AND FURNISHES ME WITH ALL WHAT I POST AND REVEAL! John14:16, 25, John15:26, John16:12-15

    THE FACT THAT YOU NEVER ANSWERED SPECIFICALLY ANY OF MY QUESTIONS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943903
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    I don’t know if you accidentally or intentionally made the connection; but, an astute observation in God’s relationship with the nation of Israel. To the nation of Israel and only the nation of Israel is God ever mentioned as being a “father” and I never proposed anything different. That is NOT to say a non-Jew cannot have a relationship with God; as scripture states that an “alien in the land of Israel” who follows God’s commands is to be treated as a brother. We must also remember it wasn’t just the Jewish people who left with Moses but a “mixed multitude” of people (non-Jews) that went out to worship, wandered in the desert, and entered the “promised land.” In short God is the “father” to those who do HIS commands.

    You mention the phrase “true God” are you looking for the words to have been said by God or just the phrase within the old testament? God never says of HIMSELF “I am your Father and True God” in a single sentence. The phrase “true God” IS written in 2 Chron 15:3 and Jer 10:10 and there is no doubt of whom it is speaking. To be honest I’m not even sure where you are going with this or why it’s even a concern as “true God” is only said twice in the OT and three times in the NT and in each instance Jesus isn’t said to be God.

    YOU: “HOW CAN GOD THE FATHER, A SPIRIT, MOST HOLY AND ETERNAL, CAN EVER BE THE GOD AND FATHER OF THE MORTAL AND CURSED HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD?”

    ME: Your “god” must be little, because my God created everything – as stated in Genesis 1 – and on the sixth day, created man in his image and likeness. Are you saying the originator of human life isn’t the father of his creation? Yikes!! If you prefer Satan to be your father, that’s up to you; I prefer to say God, the creator of heaven and earth, is mine.

    YOU: “WHY DON’T WE READ IN FULL CLARITY IN THE OT., THAT THE “FATHER” IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD? ONLY THE ABOVE WORDING I WANT TO FIND IN THE OT!”

    ME: Starting to sound like me wanting the scripture in the OT where Paul states “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, was to be buried, and raised up on the third day (I Cor 15:3,4)? While your searching for that, find in the OT where the innocent are to suffer for the guilt of another. If this isn’t in the OT, the veracity of the NT comes into question.

    YOU: ALSO, KEEP IN MIND THAT ISRAEL IS A SPIRITUAL NAME ATTRIBUTED TO JESUS, GIVEN BY GOD????

    ME: Is this a question or statement? If it’s a question then NO! If a statement, give me the verse that states “Israel is the spiritual name attributed to Jesus.” If no verse exists, what you state is man made and isn’t part of scripture and therefore false.

    YOU: Hosea 1:1 (Hosea 11:1 fixed) When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

    NOT A CARNAL NAME LIKE JACOB, ATTRIBUTED TO THE MORTAL BODY OF JACOB! THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT DISTINCT AND OPPOSING REFERENCES!

    ME: What is your point, not sure what you’re trying to address with this verse? Israel isn’t a “carnal name like Jacob”? What does this mean? Jacob’s name was changed to Israel after wrestling with an angel and literally means “one who struggles with God.” I see nothing apposing in this verse; when I read it. God is stating Israel is his child, whom he loves, to the point HE calls Israel HIS son. I think you are reading into everything to much and creating confusion. I like to keep things as simple as possible and read the words that are there instead of between the lines all the time.

    As a side note, can you please write in a normal fashion; your format is extremely distracting and hard to follow. Stop with the all caps, there is no need to constantly yell.

    #943904
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    King James has some serious issues! It is changing the tenses of verbs and thus changing the context of what is written, therefore changing scripture; thus making the translation a corrupt version. If you are going to rely on the “spirit of truth” to discern for you, you are making a huge mistake. The “spirit of truth” is what or whom? John is the only one who mentions this spirit. God never speaks of it nor does Jesus. So are we to individually rely on what we believe to be the “spirit” to guide us? This has the potential to be dangerous.

    Instead of focusing on me saying the KJ is corrupt, what about the rest of what I spoke on or are you still digesting?

    #943905
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desire truth,

    ME: Your “god” must be little, because

    my God created everything – as stated in Genesis 1 –

    THE ABOVE IS JUST THE BEGINNING OF GOD’S OWN WORK BY

    “THE WORD” JESUS, AS A SPIRIT!

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    THE SON OF MAN TO BE!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON! 

    You: and on the sixth day, created man in his image and likeness.

    Me: I LIKE THIS ONE DT. IT IS ONE OF MY FAVOURITES!

    NOW THE ONLY  EMBODIMENT, IMAGE, SHAPE, AND FORM OF GOD IS

    JESUS, PREEXISTED BEFORE CREATION EVEN AS THE SON OF MAN,

    John 3:13, THE BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS OF GOD’S GENERAL WORK! 

    That means that the first-ever man, always with respect to Genesis 2:7  FORMED and CREATED by  GOD, WAS IN ACTUAL FACT IN THE IMAGE OF JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, HIDDEN IN ADAM, HIS ETERNAL LIFE AT ALL COSTS! John 1:3,4 THE FACT THAT HE IS/WAS SLAIN……..Rev. 13:8

    Are you saying the originator of human life isn’t the father of his creation? Yikes!! If you prefer Satan to be your father, that’s up to you; I prefer to say God, the creator of heaven and earth, is mine.

    ENJOY IT!

    NOW SCRIPTURE IS NOT JUST THAT PARTICULAR VERSE IN Genesis 2:7

    READ WHAT OCCURRED in Genesis 3:17 And to Adam he said:

    Because thou hast hearkened to

    the VOICE of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree,

    ANSWER DT, WHO ACTUALLY WAS THE VOICE OF THE WOMAN?

    WHY DIDN’T  GOD SAY  YOU LISTENED TO YOUR WIFE?

    KEEP IN MIND THAT THE WOMAN AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME

    WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD! 

    THAT MEANS THAT THE WOMAN LOST HER SPIRITUAL STATE CREATED BY GOD, AND 

    BECAME THE DEVIL’S FEMALE ENTITY,

    ALIVE IN HER FILTHY CORRUPTED MORTAL FLESH!

    I LEAVE IT TO YOUR EARTHLY WISDOM, WHICH IS QUITE COMMON, IN ORDER TO REALIZE WHAT KIND OF WOMAN, AGAIN SPIRITUALLY DEAD AND IN A CORRUPTED STATE, ADAM WAS MESMERIZED WITH, THE FACT THAT HE JUST GRABBED THE FRUIT  AND ATE OF IT, WITH THE HOPE TO BE

    LIKE THE WOMAN OR AS SCRIPTURE SAYS

    a helper LIKE HIMSELF.

    THAT’S ENOUGH OF THAT!

    SO CARRY ON READING AND BE AWARE OF THE REST!

    Genesis 3…

     whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat,

    cursed is the earth in thy work;

    with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. 18Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou eat the herbs of the earth.19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth,

    out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.

    Answer, DT. WAS ADAM IN THE IMAGE OF YOUR GOD! OR

    IN THE IMAGE OF MY GOD,

    NO, NO, AND NO, NOT SATAN AS YOU CORRUPTLY IMAGINED; I MEAN

    MY GOD, YOU KNOW VERY WELL  WHO IS 

    MY GOD IN FLESH AND BLOOD NO?

    THERE’S ONLY ONE AND UNIQUE IN FULL GLORY!

    JESUS CHRIST 

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    ON THIS PLANET EARTH! here it comes:

    THE FACT THAT HE IS, 

     

    OUR FATHER, TRUE, and ONLY!

    TELL ME DT:

    WHAT DETERMINES THAT SOMETHING IS TRUE ON THIS PLANET?

    READ:

    1 John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know

    THE TRUE GOD,

    and may be in his TRUE SON.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Back to Genesis,

    20And Adam called the name of his wife Eve: because she was the mother of all the living.21And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife,

    garments of skins, and clothed them.

     ARE YOU IN A POSITION, ALWAYS USE YOUR EARTHLY WISDOM, AND TELL US WHAT ARE  THE GARMENTS OF SKINS GOD CLOTHED THEM WITH?

    NOW READ THIS:

    23And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure,

    to till the earth from which he was taken.

    24 And he cast out Adam;

    WHAT HAPPENED TO THE WOMAN?

    WHY NOT GOD ALSO INCLUDED THE WOMAN IN THE ABOVE?

    and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way,

    to keep the way of the tree of life.

    You: ME: Your “god” must be little, because my God created everything – as stated in Genesis 1 – and on the sixth day, created man in his image and likeness. 

    it is a different story altogether from the above, AFTER GENESIS 2:7

    don’t you think so?

    You: As a side note, can you please write in a normal fashion; your format is extremely distracting and hard to follow. Stop with the all caps, there is no need to constantly yell.

    Well, I do my best to improve!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943907
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..scripture tells us (not me)…….> John 2:27….> “But the “ANOINTING” which you have received of (from) him abides in you, and you need not that “ANY” man teach you: but as the same “Anointing” teaches you of (about) all things, and is “TRUTH”, and is no lie, and even as it (the spirit of truth) has taught you , you shall abide in him. 

    And again……> John 14: 15-17……> ” if you love me keep my commandments, and I shall pray the Father, and (HE) you another Comforter, that (He, God) may abide with you “FOREVER”; Even the SPIRIT  (a cognisity) OF TRUTH ; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you (he was in Jesus) , and shall be “IN”  YOU. 

    The same anointing Spirit,  “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”,  that is in Jesus, the anointed one, of God, is in all those who have been given it to them, by God the Father ,  That is the  true “Comforter”.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene.

     

    #943908
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Once again you are reading between the lines; when God said HE created man in HIS image and likeness, HE was only referring to Jesus?!? In what image and likeness was man created then, if not in God’s as He stated? Are you seriously claiming we were actually created in the image of Jesus?!? If this is the case, then Jesus is the God of the old testament. Please quote me the verse from any place in the bible that states this.

    What exactly am I to enjoy?

    Other translations state Adam just “listened” to his wife and ate from the tree. You are focused on the word “voice” as if the voice is something mystical. The words and sounds that emanated from the mouth of Eve were hers when she offered the fruit to Adam. She was deceived and made the choice to partake of the fruit. It sounds as if you are casting all the blame for Eve’s actions on the serpent. Who’s fault would it be if you were told to jump off a cliff and you did? Are you saying you didn’t have enough reasoning power to deduce jumping off a cliff would be dangerous or even deadly and is therefore the fault of the one who encouraged you to do it. That would be ridiculous to blame the other, you would be just plain stupid for having jumped.

    You ask what happened to Eve when Adam was caste from Eden; is this really a sticky point for you? Unless you are a “screaming, leftist liberal”, the wife follows after the man as she is to be “submissive” to him. How exactly is this even a question for you?

    Sorry, it’s not a “different story” after Gen 2:7. Here’s something to ponder, read Gen 2:17 and what Eve said in Gen 3:3. Did you notice she added to God’s command by saying to not touch it either. Are we to add to God’s commands; according to Prov 30:6 better not or you will be found a liar.

    Until you answer the question concerning I Cor 15:3,4; stop quoting new testament as I will ignore all of it. The new testament is in question until that is answered.

    #943909
    carmel
    Participant

    H Desiretruth,

    You: In what image and likeness was man created then, if not in God’s as He stated?  

    Me: from the above, it is evidently clear that YOU HAVEN’T GOT THE SLIGHTEST PERCEPTION OF WHAT GOD IS!

    WHERE IN THE OT WE CAN HAVE THE SLIGHTEST AWARENESS OF

    THE IMAGE OF GOD?

    You: Are you seriously claiming we were actually created in the image of Jesus?!?

    MORE THAN SERIOUSLY CLAIMING SO! AS A TRUE CHRISTIAN!

    If this is the case, then Jesus is the God of the old testament.

    AGAIN DEFINITELY AS A TRUE CHRISTIAN!

    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning GOD created heaven, and earth. 

    2:1 And the earth was void and empty, and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep; and the SPIRIT OF GOD moved over the waters.

     

    AS YOU CAN WELL READ, GOD IS MENTIONED IN 1:1

    ON THE OTHER HAND IN 1:2 ONLY THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS MENTIONED!

    WHAT HAPPENED TO GOD?

    THAT SPIRIT OF GOD IS JESUS THE SON OF GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST.

    THE VERY FIRST TITLE  IN VERSE 2, PROBABLY THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL VERSE, IS

    DARKNESS!

    THAT DARKNESS IS A REFERENCE TO “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE. THE BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS OF GOD’S WORK.

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Re. 13:8

    PRECISELY HIDDEN, ETERNAL LIFE WITHIN LUCIFER/SATAN, TO BE PRECISE, THE REBELLIOUS SPIRITS!

    Psalm 18:11, Duet 5:22,23, 2 Chronicles 6:1.

    THUS, IN RELATION TO THE SPIRITUAL SIDE OF CREATION,

    IS  JESUS, THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD, AND

    IN RELATION TO THE PHYSICAL CREATION IS JESUS “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN!

    WELL SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED BY JESUS IN

    John 4:35 Do you not say, There are yet four months, and then the harvest cometh? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and see the countries; for they are white already to harvest. 

    36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting:

    that both HE that soweth, and HE that reapeth, may rejoice together.

     37For in this is the saying true: That it is one man that soweth, and it is another that reapeth. 

    38I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour: others have laboured, and you have entered into their labours.

    John13:31When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 

    32 If God be glorified in him, God also will glorify him in himself; and immediately will he glorify him.

    Please quote me the verse from any place in the bible that states this.

    THE ABOVE VERSE OF GENESIS 1:2, IS THE VERY FIRST SCRIPTURE THAT GOD CREATED 

    ALL THROUGH/BY HIS SON 

    JESUS, 

    PREEXISTED AS SPIRIT OF GOD!

     NOW YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING HERE SIMPLY

    TO PERSUADE ME OTHERWISE!

     

    Peace and love  in Jesus Christ

    #943911
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel.  You said……..>”ON THE OTHER HAND IN 1:2 ONLY THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS MENTIONED!

    WHAT HAPPENED TO GOD?”

    Are you sitting down because here comes your answer……> Jesus said (not me)……>John 4:24….> ” God “IS” A Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and truth” .  So if God is a Spirit as Jesus said, then what difference is there ? 

    Now worm your way out of that one, I sure you can as all false teachers can somehow.

    Carmel you either believe what Jesus says or not, in your case it is evident you don’t . IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel………..gene

    #943912
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I realize what I have been writing lately goes against everything I have said in the past; but, what Paul said about the Messiah is huge by claiming “according to scripture” the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind, be buried, and raised on the third day. Paul wasn’t saying when you read between lines of the OT you will find Jesus, he was saying it is written in the OT. This means there are passages that explicitly state this and I have yet to find anything written saying “the Messiah” was to take on the sins of mankind and die for them, let alone be raised from the dead. I’ll repeat myself; if these statements cannot be found in the OT, Christianity has a huge problem.

    When you say the “spirit of truth” teaches all things and is no lie, this “spirit of truth” that everyone claims is revealing the “truth”, why is there zero agreement on what is plainly said within the pages of the bible? When crossing between religious beliefs, no one agrees on what the NT says; everyone has there own interpretation. How can this be possible IF the “spirit of truth”, who cannot lie, is in everyone? We should all be one in thought and purpose; yet, we are completely divided.

    It seems the NT causes division, strife, and chaos; why would anyone want to be a part of that? There is something wrong in “Christianity” today. The modern church is on the verge of collapse, for the last 1700 years fear brought people into the church and now that isn’t working so they have latched onto inclusivity, under the guise of “loving your neighbor” and filling the church with the alphabet soup crowd and teaching what they are doing is okay, “God loves them for who they are” and loving them “straight to Hell.”

    Look in your churches, do you have more seats open than you have people filling them? Is your church small and the same size as when it started? Are your seats bursting with young, single, working adults or is that group missing? As you sit in your seat, are you sitting through a monologue of the pastor or are you able to engage them and ask questions in that moment? This observation, is the church today. We need to wake up!

    #943913
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Carmel.  You said……..>”ON THE OTHER HAND IN 1:2 ONLY THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS MENTIONED!

    WHAT HAPPENED TO GOD?”

    Are you sitting down because here comes your answer……> Jesus said (not me)……>John 4:24….> ” God “IS” A Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and truth” .  So if God is a Spirit as Jesus said, then what difference is there ? 

    Now worm your way out of that one, I sure you can as all false teachers can somehow.

    ME:  do you know something Gene,

    FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME, YOU REALLY GAVE ME SOMETHING TO CHEW:

    KIDS’ STUFF   

    #943914
    carmel
    Participant

     

    #943917
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    I am stunned by your response! None of what you said is supported by scripture. The only thing that comes to mind is, “get behind me Satan.” Then to claim you are a “true christian” as if not believing as you do somehow makes a “false Christian.”

    It is no wonder the “church” is falling apart, you have created Jesus, a self proclaimed MAN, into someone who is greater than the creator of everything. There is a fiery place waiting for you.

    You then go on to claim “darkness” is a title?!?!? Have you completely gone off the deep end? Darkness ISN’T a title, it’s the lack of light, where did you come up this statement? Then to say it refers to Jesus??!!? Jesus is “Darkness”?!? Is Jesus Satan? If Jesus is “darkness” how can “light” be in him? If Jesus is “darkness” and the NT is all about Jesus, does that mean the NT is deception? I think you better put the lid back on Pandora’s Box.

    Then to say Jesus is the “spirit of God”; I thought Jesus was God. How many bottles of wine did you drink first!?

    You need to explain this passage Isa 45:5-7 “I am HaShem, and there is none else, beside Me there is no G-d; I have girded thee, though thou hast not known Me; 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am HaShem; and there is none else; 7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am HaShem, that doeth all these things.”

    If God does all things where exactly does Jesus factor into all this?

    If Jesus is “darkness”, God created him, so how exactly could Jesus preexist, let alone be the creator? Or is this “kid’s stuff”? Apparently answering where in the OT the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind is “adult stuff”, because you and everyone else has avoided that question like the plague.

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