John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,321 through 24,340 (of 26,000 total)
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  • #943778
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All……Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt.  We will die for our own sins,  the idea Jesus paid our sin debt off is a lie, our death pays it .  Just as scripture says, “the soul that sins it shall die”,  all have sinned all die.,  

    But you would say , Jesus did not sin, so why did he die then? ,  many say he died to payoff my sin debt , “O” really, then why do people who believe and believed in him still die, if he paid of our sin debt?  And wouldn’t that make God unjust to kill a non sinner, “for” our sins ?

    So then in what “way or sense”,  did he die for my sins, or the sins of the world? ,  it is in this sense he died for them,  that he might demonstrate, “I say “demonstrate”, what is required by us all, to have a right relationship GOD THE FATHER.  It requires “US”, ‘’in “Faith” to God The FATHER , to also put our own Will’s to death and do the Will of God, JUST AS JESUS, DEMONSTRATED TO US ALL. 

    The concept Jesus paid off your own sin debit is a “LIE”,  we will pay for our own sins , that’s why we are told by Jesus to “REPENT”.  if Jesus paid OFF  our sins, tell me, what is there  “REPENT”  OF? ,   No,  we are saved by GRACE and that not of ourselves it is a “GIFT” of “GOD”, THE FATHER.  REPENTANCE IS ALSO A “GIFT” of GOD THE FATHER, AND IS A CREATIVE WORK “HE AND HE ALONE”, PERFORMS “IN” US, by HIS  SPIRIT. 

    #943779
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All……Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt.  We will die for our own sins,  the idea Jesus paid our sin debt off is a lie, our death pays it .  Just as scripture says, “the soul that sins it shall die”,  all have sinned all die.,  

    But you would say , Jesus did not sin, so why did he die then? ,  many say he died to payoff my sin debt , “O” really, then why do people who believe and believed in him still die, if he paid of our sin debt?  And wouldn’t that make God unjust to kill a non sinner, “for” our sins ?

    So then in what “way or sense”,  did he die for my sins, or the sins of the world? ,  it is in this sense he died for them,  that he might demonstrate, “I say “demonstrate”, what is required by us all, to have a right relationship GOD THE FATHER.  It requires “US”, ‘’in “Faith” to God The FATHER , to also put our own Will’s to death and do the Will of God, JUST AS JESUS, DEMONSTRATED TO US ALL. 

    The concept Jesus paid off your own sin debit is a “LIE”,  we will pay for our own sins , that’s why we are told by Jesus to “REPENT”.  if Jesus paid OFF  our sins, tell me, what is there  “REPENT”  OF? ,   No,  we are saved by GRACE and that not of ourselves it is a “GIFT” of “GOD”, THE FATHER.  REPENTANCE IS ALSO A “GIFT” of GOD THE FATHER, AND IS A CREATIVE WORK “HE AND HE ALONE”, PERFORMS “IN” US, by HIS  SPIRIT.

    peace and love to you all and yours……..gene

    #943781
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    You: Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt.

    Me: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:3

    #943782
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    There’s that pesky “according to scripture” statement from Paul. Now find it in the old testament!

    #943784
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth

    You

    There’s that pesky “according to scripture” statement from Paul. Now find it in the old testament! 

    Me

    The authors of the new testament do not ALWAYS repeat WORD FOR WORD the verses of the old testament BUT THE ESSENTIAL IS SAID, and whoever is willing to hear understands what is said.

    👇

    Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: 👉when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    God bless

    #943785
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean

    Me “JESUS WOULD BE IN YOU IN WHATEVER YOU EAT AND DRINK.

    YOUR ETERNAL LIFE!”

    You: Very dangerous what you say Carmel
    Because it is a false teaching. Jesus is not in the food we eat.
    You push things to their extreme and it becomes a heresy that can lead to pantheism: nature is God….

    God in nature…..nature is God….there’s only one step….

    Watch out Carmel !

    I never said what you are implying!

    You left out the beginning of that statement!

    I said:

    BEFORE YOU EAT OR DRINK ANYTHING JUST SAY 

    THANK YOU JESUS!

    FORGIVE ME JESUS!

    Read what I said specifically precisely in the first statement in the same post:

     

    Me: I don’t blame you Gene,  but as I always say:

    IT IS THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO GOD’S WORK!

    IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BREAD OR ANY OTHER FOOD,

    BUT IT IS

    JESUS’SPIRIT IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, ALL IN HIM;

    PRECISELY IN WHATEVER ONE EATS AS FOOD, ONCE ONE BELIEVES IN JESUS!

    WHEN A PERSON BELIEVES, HE WILL NOT BE USING HIS FLESH BODY, SATANIC, BUT HE WILL BE USING HIS SOUL, THE INTELLECT, WHICH IS OF GOD!

    AGAIN I SAID:

     29Jesus answered, and said to them:

    This is the work of God,
    that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

    ONE ONLY HAS TO BELIEVE IN JESUS, AND ONCE HE BELIEVES IN JESUS, 

    HE EATS NORMAL FOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF JESUS WHICH IS IN THE FOOD ENDURES TO ETERNAL LIFE!

    Berean THE SPIRIT OF JESUS, NOT GOD IS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION!

    WHAT IF I TELL YOU THAT JESUS IS OUR MOTHER, TO BE PRECISE:

    JESUS’SPIRIT IN CREATION IS MOTHER EARTH!

    Galatians 4:26 But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free:

    which is our mother.

    Now the new Jerusalem is THE HUMAN BODY IN JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN!

    THE BRIDE!

    John3:29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom:

    JESUS IS THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND THE ENTIRE CREATION.

    Colossians 1:16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him. 17And he is before all,

    and by him all things consist. 

    THE ABOVE IS DIRECTLY REFERRING TO JESUS’ SPIRIT “THE WORD” BUT  EQUIVALENTLY IT ALSO REFERS TO JESUS HIMSELF,  HE SUSTAINS ALL WITH HIS SPIRIT, AND HE RECONCILES THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL BY HIS SPIRIT TO THE FATHER! 

    YOUR SOUL Berean IS YOU!

    NOW JESUS’SPIRIT IS

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING John1:1

    Then I again made clear and said:

    BEFORE JESUS REDEMPTION, SATAN WAS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, AND WITHIN ALL THE FOOD HUMANS USED TO EAT,

    THEY ATE ALSO PRECISELY SATAN’S SPIRIT!

    John 13:26 Jesus answered:

    He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27And after the morsel,

    Satan entered into HIM.

    And Jesus said to HIM: That which thou dost, do quickly. 

    Berean TO WHOM JESUS SPOKE?

    TO SATAN NO? WHO ENTERED JUDAS’SOUL!

    Now I want to add this:

    WHY DID JESUS GIVE JUDAH THE MORSEL?

    NOT JUST IN ORDER FOR THE APOSTLES TO KNOW WHO IS GOING TO BETRAY JESUS,  NO FOR SURE!

    SATAN WAS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD, AND WHEN JESUS GAVE THE MORSEL, GAVE HIM SATAN AS WELL IN THE MORSEL!

    THIS IS ALSO REPEATED ON THE CROSS WHEN JESUS SAID

    I THIRST!

    WHICH MEANS HE IS THIRSTY FOR JUSTICE, FOR THE TRUTH,  AND ALSO

    FOR SATAN, WHO WAS VERY HESITANT TO DO HIS NORMAL PROCEDURE WHICH WAS TO  ENTER AND TAKE CRIMINAL SOULS TO HIS EMPIRE OF HELLFIRE. THUS JESUS SAID I THIRST IN ORDER TO GIVE HIM THE VINEGAR AND PRECISELY WITHIN THAT VINEGAR THERE WAS ALSO, WHETHER HE WANTED OR NOT, 

    SATAN!

    Berean, SATAN DID ENTER JESUS, BUT HE NEVER LEFT JESUS’ DEAD BODY, “THE WORD” AT ALL!

    HE  REMAINED LOCKED IN JESUS’ DEAD BODY,

    PRACTICALLY DEAD!

    AND THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THOSE SOULS WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS,

    THEY SIMPLY REMAIN LOCKED IN THE  DEAD BODY/BONES, AND ONLY BURNING FIRE WOULD RELEASE THEM!

    ON THE OTHER HAND, JESUS’SOUL, IN THE HOLY GHOST,  IN THAT SAME INSTANT

    LEFT GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE WITH “THE WORD” JESUS’BODY

    THE SON OF MAN, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH THE ONLY

    GODMAN  John13:31,32 John17:1

    JUST READ THIS EXAMPLE NOW GIVEN BY JESUS IN

    Mark 11:12 And the next day when they came out from Bethania,

    he was hungry.

    HUNGRY FOR JUSTICE AND TRUTH NOT FOR FIGS TO EAT!

    13And when he had seen afar off a fig tree having leaves, he came if perhaps he might find anything on it. And when he was come to it, he found nothing but leaves.

    For it was not the time for figs.

    AND JESUS KNEW ABOUT IT FOR SURE!

    14And answering he said to it:

    May no MAN hereafter eat fruit of thee anymore

    FOREVER!

    And his disciples heard it.

    Berean, don’t tell me that you believe that 

    JESUS SPOKE TO THE TREE! HA, HA, HA,!

    HE SPOKE TO SATAN WITHIN THAT TREE AS HE, SATAN, BELIEVED THAT HE AS A SPIRIT GIVES LIFE TO ALL THAT IS EVIL, AND WAS THE SOVEREIGN SPIRIT OF THIS EVIL WORLD THROUGH EVE’S SIN! 

    John7:7 The world cannot hate you;

    but me it hateth:

    because I give testimony of it,

    that the works thereof are evil. 

    NOW, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE TREE?

    OBVIOUS JESUS, TO BE CLEAR,

    “THE WORD” JESUS’SPIRIT, SINCE ALL IN HIM ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM, THE LIFE OF BOTH ALL THE GOOD AND THE EVIL!

     SIMPLY LEFT SATAN’S HEART,

    You know what happened to the tree:

    20And when they passed by in the morning they saw

    the fig tree dried up from THE ROOTS.

    FROM THE ROOTS, THUS SATAN ALSO DIED IN IT, AND NEVER LEFT THE TREE!

    LET’S READ WHAT DID JESUS DO IN BETWEEN THIS INCIDENT!

    Mark 11:15 And they came to Jerusalem. And when he was entered into the temple, he began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the chairs of them that sold doves. 16And he suffered not that any man should carry a vessel through the temple; 17And he taught, saying to them: Is it not written, My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations?

    But you have made it a den of THIEVES. 

    Berean, WHO ARE THE THIEVES JESUS MEANT TO BE?

    THE DEMONS! NO?

    JESUS SIMPLY ANTICIPATED AND MANIFESTED WHAT HE WOULD EVENTUALLY DO ON THE CROSS TO SATAN AND HIS DEMONS! Luke17:20-37

    JESUS ERADICATED SATAN AND HIS DEMONS FROM THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD,

    GOD’S KINGDOM CAME, GOD’S WILL WAS ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN! AT LEAST TILL PENTECOST!

    AND FROM THEN ON “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN REESTABLISHED HIMSELF  OFFICIALLY AS THE ONLY SOVEREIGN SPIRIT IN ALL SOULS AT ALL COSTS!

    ONE LAST CURIOUS EVENT BY JESUS IN

    John9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.6When he had said these things, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and spread the clay on his eyes, 

    7And said to him: Go, wash in the pool of Siloe, which is interpreted, Sent. He went therefore, and washed, and he came seeing.

    JESUS COULD HAVE SAID JUST A FEW WORDS AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ENOUGH! WHAT DID JESUS MAKE US AWARE OF?

    Genesis 3:19 ……. for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.

    The above words were said to Adam alright, BUT WITHIN ADAM’S FIRST-EVER SOUL WAS

    SATAN AND THOSE WORDS FROM GOD WERE IN THE TRUTH DIRECTED BOTH TO JESUS AND TO SATAN NOT TO ADAM, AS ADAM IN THAT PRECISE MOMENT

    WAS THE IMAGE OF GOD!  IN THE SECOND ADAM,

    JESUS!

    HIDDEN BOTH IN ADAM’S SOUL AND IN SATAN!

    Slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world Rev.13:8

    THUS, WITHIN THAT DUST THAT JESUS SPAT ON WAS SATAN, 

    WHEN JESUS SPAT ON THAT DUST, FIRST HE SIMPLY DESTROYED SATAN’S SPIRIT! THEN JESUS SENT HIM TO WASH HIS EYES FROM THE CLAY IN THE HOLY POOL OF SILOAM. OBVIOUS THAT CLAY WAS NOT SATANIC ANYMORE BUT HOLY AS THE POOL WAS WITH JESUS’SPIRIT!

    Now read 1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, fly from the service of idols. 15 I speak as to wise men: judge ye yourselves what I say. 

    16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless,

    is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break,

    is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

    20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers WITH DEVILS. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943786
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    I do NOT believe wath You write. Sorrry, but This IS NOT biblicaly….

    🙏

    #943787
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You: Hi Carmel

    I do NOT believe wath You write. Sorrry, but This IS NOT biblicaly….

    Me: UNLESS YOU SPECIFICALLY SHOW ME WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO, IT IS USELESS TO SAY SO!

    I PRODUCED SCRIPTURES, AND YOU NEVER PRODUCED THE SAME SCRIPTURES AND CONTRADICTED ME WITH THEM.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943788
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You are quoting Isa 53 AGAIN, I have shown it isn’t a reference to Jesus and canNOT be a reference to him.

    “he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”

    Jesus didn’t have children, his days where kind of short, how did the “pleasure of the Lord prosper in his hand”?

    “by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many

    Jesus’ “knowledge” is what justifies?!?!!?

    What portion did Jesus divide with the great, what spoil did Jesus divide the spoil with the strong? “because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

    All you have to do is read and comprehend the words given by Isaiah.

    Still a big NO on Jesus dying for the sins of mankind using Isa 53. Guess again!

    #943789
    Berean
    Participant

    JESUS SAID:
    I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.
    NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.

    #943791
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny…….You have to understand, in “what “sense” , did he die,  also you need to understand the word “for” can just as easily mean “because of”. Jesus died on the cross,  i.e. tree,   “Because of “. the sins of the world,  He did not pay your sin debt off for you, you will pay for that by dying yourself.  “The “SOUL” that sins “IT’ shall die”.   What Jesus did for us , was to show us ” THE WAY’,  OR how to have a right “relationship” , with God the Father, AND IT ‘S  “EXACTLY”  THE SAME AS HIS. 

    That is why scripture says this.

    “But if the Spirit of hm that raised  up Jesus from the “DEAD” dwell in you, He that raised Christ  from the dead shall “also” quicken your “mortal” (dead) “BODIES” by His Spirit that dwells in you.”
    That Spirit of God is given by God to all those he has chosen to be resurrected from the dead.  “We all must be “born again” , by the Spirit of God the Father,  just as Jesus was also.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny………..gene

    #943793
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Isaiah’s prophecy in Isaiah 53:4-5 is quoted directly by the Apostle Peter when talking about Jesus’ death on the cross.
    Demonstrating that Jesus had fulfilled this Old Testament prophecy, Peter stated, “‘Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.’” (1 Peter 2:24).

    #943794
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    I’m starting feel like a broken record, who is speaking in Isa 53:1? The “our” in verse four is the same “our” in verse one; who is this “our”? What message was so unbelievable in verse one?

    #943795
    Berean
    Participant

    @Danny Dabbs

    Amen!

    #943796
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth,

    You: I’m starting feel like a broken record, who is speaking in Isa 53:1?

    The “our” in verse four is the same “our” in verse one;

    who is this “our”?

    Me: IT IS OF NO USE THAT YOU ASK QUESTIONS SINCE YOU ARE NOT READY FOR THE TRUTH!

    What message was so unbelievable in verse one?

    THERE YOU ARE!

    ASK YOURSELF WHAT YOU DON’T BELIEVE!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943797
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: To All……

    Jesus did not die for anyone’s personal sin debt.

    FIRST AND FOREMOST WHAT KIND OF SINS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

    THERE ARE SINS RELATED TO MOSES AND HIS COMMANDMENTS and

    SINS RELATED TO JESUS AND HIS COMMANDMENTS!

    Luke 12: 10 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but to him that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost,

    it shall not be forgiven.

     

    John5:39 Search the scriptures, for you think in them to have life everlasting;

    and the same are they that give testimony of me. 

    40And you will not come to me that you may have life. 

    41I receive glory not from men. 42But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you. 

    43I am come in the name of my Father, and you receive me not:

    if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive. 44How can you believe, who

    receive glory one from another:

    Gene, JESUS IN THE ABOVE CLEARLY REFERS

    TO HUMANS SPIRITUALLY DEAD/ SATANIC!

    Now read what He said in relation to Himself!

     

    and the glory which is from God ALONE,

    you do not seek? 

    John 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE!

     

    ATTENTION NOW PLEASE:

    45Think not that I will accuse you to the Father.

    There is one that accuseth you,

    Moses, in whom you trust. 

    THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING REGARDING PARTICULAR SINS!

    NOW JESUS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE PARTICULAR SINS! Gene!

    ANSWER: WHY?

     

    MOSES AND HIS TEN COMMANDMENTS WILL ACCUSE THOSE WHO SIN AGAINST MOSES AND HIS LAW!

    NOW READ WHOM JESUS SHALL JUDGE:

    John12:48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words,

    hath

    ONE that judgeth him;

    WHO IS THIS “ONE” JESUS IS REFERRING TO?

    HERE IT COMES:

    THE WORD

    that I have spoken,

    the same shall judge him on the last day.

    OK Gene,

    WHO IS

    THE WORD?????

    THAT JUDGES WHO DENIES JESUS?

     

    Gene, If one does not believe in Jesus and His Gospel,    OR MORE PRECISE:

    IF A SOUL DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS, IT MEANS THAT THIS PARTICULAR SOUL  REJECTED JESUS AND

    ON ITS LAST DAY ON EARTH, to be clear

    ON ITS DEATH,

    THE SOUL WOULD REMAIN LOCKED IN THE RESPECTIVE DEAD BODY/SKELETON, AND THE ONLY WAY OUT IS

    BY FIRE!

    Matthew 13:40 Even as cockle therefore is gathered up, and burnt with fire:

    so shall it be at the end of the world.

     41The Son of man shall send his angels,

    and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity.

    42 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire:

    there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    43Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father.

    He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    You: We will die for our own sins,

     the idea Jesus paid our sin debt off is a lie, our death pays it.

    SCRIPTURE:

    1 John3:5 And you know that he APPEARED

    TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS, and in him there is no sin.

    6Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just.

    8He that commmitteth sin is of the devil:
    for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

    For this purpose, the Son of God APPEARED,
    that he might DESTROY the works of the devil.

     

    In the above scripture, Jesus, 

    THE SON OF MAN!

    APPEARED, PRE-EXISTED and 

    HE TOOK AWAY OUR SINS!

    NOW ANSWER PLEASE:

    HOW DID JESUS FREE US FROM OUR SINS?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943800
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Are you unable to answer those questions yourself? Take your “spiritual” goggles off, read the text before you, and tell me what is being said. Interpret the chapter in your own words.

    Funny how you say I am not ready for the truth; however, when the plain truth is presented, you reject it (who’s not ready?!?!). Reading Isa 53, placing it into the context it was written, is all anyone has to do see there is zero reference to Jesus. You don’t have to be “spiritual” to understand the written words of God.

    What exactly don’t I believe? The lies of man? Please enlighten! What I can’t believe is all the “hate” directed at me because I don’t see Jesus in Isa 53 from supposed “christian” people.

    #943806
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DesireTruth………who do you think the “our” there in 53  represents,  I believe the our is a all inclusive word, meaning the prophet Isaiah and the people of Israel,  and could even represent the whole world.  Kinda of like wen Jesus said pray in this way…….“Our” father, who art in heaven”.   Again that’s an all inclusive statement,  meaning Jesus and us also.

    What is your understanding of that word “our” mentioned there?  And how does it alter you perception of it not referencing Jesus ?  And who do you think it is referencing? No put down here, just would like to know who do you think it’s speaking about brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

    #943808
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Apostle Peter talking about Jesus: “…by whose stripes ye were healed.” 1 Peter 2:24
    Prophet Isaiah: “…and with his stripes we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5

    Do you agree with Apostle Peter that Jesus Christ was that Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53?
    Remember Peter was a Jew. He knew the Old Testament better than your Orthodox Jews.

    #943809
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You aren’t addressing the question of who is speaking starting in Isa 53:1; you’re running back to what you have been told and copy/pasting scripture without explanation.

    Is Jesus the “suffering servant” in Isa 53, NO! I’ll try one more time, start reading in chapter 41 and who is this “servant”? If you don’t do this, we will keep going in circles and I’m not a fan of merry-go-rounds. How much of the old testament have you studied? I am just starting. If it’s little to none, you’re missing something amazing.

    Yes, I know Peter was a Jew; now explain Acts 4:13 “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled;” Some translations state they were “illiterate”, “uneducated”, “untrained”, “ordinary”, or “common.” Are you really going to say they new scripture better than someone who is educated in that field today? According to Acts 4 they couldn’t read or write. What does that mean for our religious leader of today who are “educated”? Are they less learned of the old testament? You put your trust in them to speak the truth; but, a Jew educated in their scriptures isn’t to be trusted?!? I see thin ice in your future..

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