John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,281 through 24,300 (of 26,003 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #943720
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Your statement doesn’t answer the question of with/without Jesus and where you go.

    There are people who have not known the person of Jesus and his teachings but as Paul says: “by nature do the things contained in the law, these, not having the law, are a law for themselves:
    [15] Who shows the work of the law written in their hearts,
    I believe this is the work of the Spirit of God and Christ, even though they do not know God and Christ in particular.

    Why wouldn’t these people go to Heaven?

    For Colossians 1:16,17
    I believe that Paul is very clear and I believe that his words are to be believed LITERALLY and that there is no need to force the brain to understand what is stated.

    The pre-existence of Christ and His creative power ARE CLEARLY AFFIRMED IN THESE PASSAGES.

    🙏

    #943721
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    If you have heard of Jesus and you accept him where do you end up? If you have heard of Jesus and you reject him where do you go? Is that better!

    Explain in a single sentence why you would choose one scenario over the other?

    #943722
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    @Danny,
    Tell me why you became a “christian”? What was said that “opened” your eyes? Was it the possibility of not going to heaven?

    I read a christian booklet. There I learned about the gospel.
    I responded and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
    What about you?

     

    #943723
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    My “conversion” was at a speaking engagement; but similar to yours.

    What was written in the pamphlet that caused you to question the path you were on?

    #943724
    Berean
    Participant

    @desire Truth

    If you have heard of Jesus and you accept him where do you end up?

    Me

    If I accept it and persevere until the end of my life or its return I will end up in the new earth where justice will dwell.

     

    If you have heard of Jesus and you reject him where do you go? Is that better!

    Me

    If I definitely reject it, it’s the lake of fire and brimstone.

    Explain in a single sentence why you would choose one scenario over the other?

    Me

    I have chosen the path of the One who has projects of happiness for humanity and not projects of misfortune.

    🙏

    #943725
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    What was written in the pamphlet that caused you to question the path you were on?

    The gospel of Jesus Christ.

    #943726
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean

    @Danny

    Apparently I am not suppose to be speaking on this topic, because neither of you are grasping what I am asking. I asked my youngest child the same question I asked you Berean at the beginning and they picked up immediately the point I was going to make and I am extremely careful what I say to them at this point.

    I am tired of going in circles, so it’s done.

    #943727
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Apparently I am not suppose to be speaking on this topic, because neither of you are grasping what I am asking.

    Me

    I answered you, maybe not as you wished, but it is so.

     

    #943730
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Desiretruth.

    You have made some big leaps in your last post.

    Chapter 52 is addressed to God’s people the nation of Israel and in particular Jerusalem, but also Zion in the wider context.

    1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

    2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

    3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

    4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.

    5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

    6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

    So it is addressing ‘My People’. But then it talks about those who bring good news, the watchmen.

    7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

    Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.

    9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

    10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

    11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

    12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

    Seems to still be addressing those that bring good tidings. Then it appears to address what looks like the messiah.

    13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

    14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

    15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

    Now to chapter 53 where it states the following:

    Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    It still looks like it is those who bring good tidings.

    #943731
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,
    To say I “made some big leaps.” Careful how you tread; to discount what I have written is to say Rabbi’s are clueless and have no understanding of the Tanakh. You want to learn what we call the old testament, find a Rabbi who is teaching it and learn. Modern scholars are clueless in comparison, which is why we have the belief Isa 53 is referencing Jesus.

    Onto your interpretation, if the “our” are the one’s who are bringing good tidings in verse 1; then the “our” in verse 5 are the same who are wounding him and bruising him. Does this make sense to you? With your interpretation, it removes Jesus from the picture.

    Are you waking up?

    #943733
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: Apparently I am not suppose to be speaking on this topic, because neither of you are grasping what I am asking.

    Me: I gave you a clear answer.

    #943734
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Onto your interpretation, if the “our” are the one’s who are bringing good tidings in verse 1; then the “our” in verse 5 are the same who are wounding him and bruising him. Does this make sense to you? With your interpretation, it removes Jesus from the picture.

    Verse 5 says this:

    But he was pierced for our transgressions,
        he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
        and by his wounds we are healed.

    Most Christians know that his suffering was the result of our sins. Are you not aware that Christ died for our sins?

    If ‘our’ are messengers and these messengers are also Jews, and if they are also human, then ‘our’ could refer to any group that you belong to.

    For example, I could say we have preached the good news in New Zealand. I could then say that the good news is for our benefit and this could mean that we who preach the good news will benefit perhaps with Godly reward, but it could also mean that New Zealanders will benefit from the gospel message. Neither would be incorrect if we who were preaching were also New Zealanders.


    @desiretruth
    , I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

    And how exactly is Jesus being removed from the picture (as you say) when the messengers are referencing him?

    #943735
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Careful how you tread; to discount what I have written is to say Rabbi’s are clueless and have no understanding of the Tanakh.

    I am not saying they are clueless, but let’s be honest. If Jesus is the Christ, then the Rabbi’s who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ are clueless in that respect. For these Rabbis to be correct, it would mean that the Christ has not come yet and Jesus was either an imposter or never existed.

    #943736
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If you ask people in Israel who the words of Isaiah are describing, some of them who do not believe will still say it describes Jesus.

    In the Old Testament, the rejection of the Messiah is prophesied in several passages. One prominent example is found in Psalm 118:22:

    “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.”

    This verse speaks metaphorically about the Messiah, portraying Him as a stone that is rejected by those who are supposed to build and establish God’s kingdom. Despite the initial rejection, the rejected stone eventually becomes the cornerstone, symbolizing the exalted position and significance of the Messiah. Today, we see people in either camp. You either despise him or elevate him as your lord and savior.

    Another relevant passage can be found of course in Isaiah 53:3:

    “He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
    Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.”

    This verse describes the Messiah as despised and rejected by humanity. It depicts the Messiah’s experience of suffering and being disregarded. It emphasizes the rejection he would face during his earthly ministry.

    God’s plan is on track. It is up to us where we want to be placed within that plan.

    #943737
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Cont.

    You: Carmel……Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”

    Here comes the scripture:

    John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written:

    He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32Then Jesus said to them:

    Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven,

    but my Father giveth you the TRUE bread from heaven. 

    33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven,

    and giveth life to the world. 

    48 I am the bread of life.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS MADE IT CLEAR THAT,

    HE IS THE TRUE BREAD AND AS THE TRUE BREAD

    HE GIVES LIFE TO THE WORLD!

    MY FIRST QUESTION Gene, though spiritually you are blind, with every respect. not yet born AGAIN!

    HOW DOES JESUS GIVE LIFE TO THE WORLD,

    AND AT THE SAME TIME IS NOT A PREEXISTED SPIRIT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, EVEN SLAIN Rev.a3:8?

    THEN HE ASSERTED AND SAID THAT

    HE IS THE BREAD OF LIFE!

    JESUS USED THE TERM BREAD, AS THE BREAD UP TO THIS DAY IS STILL CONSIDERED

    THE LIFE OF THE BODY! 

    BUT JESUS WAS REFERRING NOT JUST TO THE LIFE OF THE BODY, BUT ALSO TO THE LIFE OF THE SOUL, SPIRITUAL PRECISELY IN HIS SPIRIT. THUS:

    HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM,

    WHATEVER HE EATS,

    WHATEVER FOOD HE EATS, NOT JUST BREAD AS SUCH WOULD IN TRUTH,

    ALSO RECEIVES HIS SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, THE SUSTAINER OF ALL. 

    JUST REFLECT PLEASE:

    IN THE LAST SUPPER JESUS,

    BROKE THE BREAD IN TWO AND SAID; THIS IS MY BODY…! WHY?

    THERE WERE LOADS OF BREAD AVAILABLE FOR SUCH A BIG MEAL, AND HE COULD HAVE GIVEN THEM THE BREAD WITHOUT BREAKING IT, NO? BUT BY BREAKING IT, HE SIMPLY MANIFESTED THAT HIS SPIRIT FURNISHES BOTH THE LIFE  FOR THE BODY AND THE LIFE FOR THE SOUL. THUS HE SAID:

    I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE! BOTH SPIRIT AND PHYSICAL.

    THE FOOD OF LIFE!

    Hinted out by Jesus also in

    John6: 27 Labour not for the meat (FOOD) which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting,

    which the Son of man will give you.

    For him hath God, the Father, SEALED.

    JESUS’SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, IS SEALED ETERNALLY IN THE PROCESS OF THE ENTIRE CREATION:

    THE FACT THAT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF,

    POURED OVER HIS SPIRIT,

    AND ENRICHED THE ENTIRE CREATION WITH HIS SPIRIT, precisely 

    ON HIS DEATH,:

    ORIGINALLY, FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH AND ETERNAL LIFE, SEALED IN CREATION,

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Re.13:8

    Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass after this,

    that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh: 

    1Corinthuans 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    that being rich he became poor, for your sakes;
    that through his poverty you might be rich.

    IN ORDER TO GIVE IT LIFE/EXISTENCE

    AT ALL COSTS!

    ALL BY HIM, ALL IN HIM, and ALL FOR HIM!

    IN SIMPLE TERMS JESUS CONFIRMED HIS PREEXISTENCE AS A SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, AND THE SUSTAINER OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION BOTH SPIRIT IN

    THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD, IN ADAM, AND PHYSICALLY IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN. IN EVE, John4:36-38

    HIDDEN AND BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD IN THIS PHYSICAL WORLD! Matthew 13:44 Well clear in

    Colossians 1:17 And he is before all, and by him all things consist. 

    Hebrews 1:2…..  by WHOM also he made the world.

    Cont. 

    John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert,

    and are dead.

    THE ABOVE IS NOT A METAPHOR! 

    Gene, SPECIFICALLY JESUS REFERRED TO A PARTICULAR UNIQUE

    PHYSICAL FOOD,

    THE EATING OF THE MANNA, AT THE SAME TIME, IS ALSO A REFERENCE TO A SPIRITUAL FOOD SINCE IT CAME FROM ABOVE UNDER GOD’S DIRECTION, AGAIN IN JESUS’ SPIRIT, BUT IN THAT CASE SLAIN THOUGH Rev.13:8, THE FACT THAT THEY DIED BOTH IN SPIRIT AND IN FLESH.

    THE FACT THAT JESUS CAME AND GAVE LIFE TO THE WORLD, AND ETERNAL LIFE John 6:27 above.

     

    THEN JESUS CONTINUED AND MAINTAINED THE SAME CONTEXT IN RELATION TO A UNIQUE AND PARTICULAR PHYSICAL FOOD  AND EMPHATICALLY SAID AGAIN:

    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven;

    that if any man eats of it,

    he may not die.

    NOTHING METAPHOR IN THE ABOVE AS WELL, AND AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS ALSO SPIRITUAL, A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIS PREEXISTENCE AS A SPIRIT ETERNAL LIFE and “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!

    NOW LET’S COUNT HOW MANY TIMES JESUS MENTIONED THE EATING OF HIS FLESH.

    (1)

    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.
    If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give,

    is my flesh,

    for the life of the world.

    IT IS NOT A METAPHOR AT ALL!

    52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying:

    How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    THE JEWS CONFIRMED THAT IT IS NOT A METAPHOR

    (2)

    53Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you:

     Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man,
     

    and drink his blood,

    you shall not have life in you.

    ONCE A PERSON BELIEVES IN JESUS WHATEVER HE EATS AND DRINKS REGARDING FOOD, WILL HAVE IN HIM BOTH A PHYSICAL LIFE FOR THE BODY, AND  A SPIRITUAL LIFE, FOR THE SOUL, PLUS THAT WHEN HE DIES HE WILL LIVE ETERNALLY IMMEDIATELY

    ON HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH; ON HIS DEATH! CONFIRMED HEREUNDER: 

    (3)

    54He that eateth my flesh,

    and drinketh my blood,

     hath everlasting life:

    and I will raise him up in the last day.

    55For my flesh is meat(FOOD) INDEED:
    and my blood is DRINK INDEED.

    (4)

    56He that eateth my flesh,

    and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father;

    (5)

     so he that eateth me,

    the same also shall live by me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven.

     Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead.

    SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN HELL!

    ALIVE AND FREED  ON JESUS’ DEATH!

    (6)

    He that eateth this bread, shall live forever.

    Gene, JESUS SIX TIMES, THE NUMBER OF MEN, DIRECTLY SAID TO EAT HIS FLESH!

    NOT A METAPHOR AT ALL! ATTENTION PLEASE:

    JESUS PREEXISTED BOTH AS A SPIRIT AND AS A PHYSICAL BEING

    IN ONE INSTANT 

    THE SON OF MAN: John 3:13….the Son of man who is in heaven.

    THE ONLY EMBODIMENT OF GOD Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally

    THE ONLY IMAGE OF GOD Colossians 1:15…..the image of the invisible God,

    THE ONLY FORM OF GOD Philippians 2:6 Who being in the form of God,

    THE ONLY SHAPE OF GOD John 5:37 nor seen his shape.

    IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER John 17:5…before the world was with you. 

    THE BEGINNING! John1:1

    BEFORE CREATION STARTED!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #943739
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……if you think you actually are eating Jesus flesh and actually drinking his blood, in a physical sense you’re your mistaking ,  eat and drink are simply a “METAPHOR”  which simply means to take to yourself his life (the way he lived) ,  it has nothing to do with actually eating any flesh or drinking any blood, at all.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #943740
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..Be careful of believing the Jews,  they reject Jesus as the “Messiah”  even to this day. But there is a “few” who do believe Jesus is the “Messiah . Remember,   The Jews knew the exact time the Messiah was to be born, from scripture, and they rejected him anyway,  be careful not to be taken in by them brother.

    I have studied Isaiah 53 from both prospectives and I am still convinced it does speak of the Messiah>.  Though I don’t  agree with Proclaimer about the preexistence of Jesus before his Birth this earth, I do believe he is presenting Isaiah 53 from a right perspective> Isaiah 53 is being presented from a “prophetic” point of view> IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……..gene

    #943743
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel……if you think you actually are eating Jesus flesh and actually drinking his blood, in a physical sense you’re your mistaking ,  

    I don’t blame you Gene,  but as I always say:

    IT IS THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO GOD’S WORK!

    IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BREAD OR ANY OTHER FOOD, BUT IT IS

    JESUS’SPIRIT IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, ALL IN HIM;

    PRECISELY IN WHATEVER ONE EATS AS FOOD, ONCE ONE BELIEVES IN JESUS!

    Now read hereunder please:

    1Corinthians 11:29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself,

    not discerning the body of the Lord.

    Now back to

    John6:26 Jesus answered them, and said: Amen, amen I say to you,

    you seek me, not because you have seen miracles,

    but because you did eat of the loaves, and were

    FILLED.

    WHAT KIND OF BREAD THEY DID EAT?

    MIRACLE BREAD FROM HEAVEN NO?

    WITH WHAT THEY WERE FILLED?

    WITH JESUS’SPIRIT NO? READ PLEASE:

    THEN JESUS SAID:

    Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto

    life everlasting,

    which the Son of man will give you.

    For him hath God, the Father, SEALED.

    They said therefore unto him:

    What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?

     29Jesus answered, and said to them:

    This is the work of God,

    that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

    OK Gene, AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    ONE ONLY HAS TO BELIEVE IN JESUS, AND ONCE HE BELIEVES IN JESUS, 

    HE EATS NORMAL FOOD AND THE SPIRIT OF JESUS WHICH IS IN THE FOOD ENDURES TO ETERNAL LIFE!

    Now read Jesus own words:

    Mark16:15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    16He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved:

    but he that believeth not shall be condemned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe:

    IN MY NAME

    they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues. 18They shall take up serpents;

    and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them:

    they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover.

    BEFORE JESUS REDEMPTION, SATAN WAS IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF CREATION, AND WITHIN ALL THE FOOD HUMANS USED TO EAT,

    THEY ATE ALSO PRECISELY SATAN’S SPIRIT!

    John 13:26 Jesus answered:

    He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27And after the morsel,

    Satan entered into HIM.

    And Jesus said to HIM: That which thou dost, do quickly. 

    TO WHOM JESUS SPOKE?

    TO SATAN NO? WHO ENTERED JUDAS’SOUL!

    NOW SINCE JESUS SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY  AND INTEGRATED IT WITH THE HOLY GHOST ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS, AND ERADICATED SATAN FROM THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE Luke 17:20-37 HE BECAME, HERE IT COMES, CHEW:

    GODMAN ON EARTH,

    THE SOLE SOVEREIGN SPIRIT WITHIN HUMANITY AT ALL COSTS!

    Jude 1:4 For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness,

    and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    John8:35 Now the servant abideth not in the house forever;

    but the son abideth forever.

    36 If therefore the son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

    THE ONLY HUMAN BEING WHO SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY WHILE STILL LIVING ON SATANIC EARTH BEFORE HIS PASSION! Luke 13:32

    NOW, THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS, DON’T RECEIVE JUST THE BENEFIT OF HIS ETERNAL SPIRIT, THE HOLY GHOST, ON THEIR LAST DAY ON EARTH, WHERE THEY BECOME LIVING SOULS ON THEIR DEATH, THE SONS OF GOD! IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    John 5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment,

    but is passed from death to life.

     BUT ALSO

    THE BENEFIT OF HIS ETERNAL FLESH, ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD, IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN.

    THE NEW JERUSALEM, IN ORDER, HERE COMES ANOTHER:

    TO LIVE ETERNALLY ALSO IN THE FLESH, ON THE LAST DAY  IN THE SAME AUTHENTIC BODY OF JESUS! IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    1John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear,

    we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as he is.

    NOW IN ORDER FOR HUMANITY TO RECEIVE THE PURE FLESH OF JESUS, JESUS RESURRECTED FOR OUR SAKE PRECISELY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL AUTHENTIC BRETHREN IN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    IN THE SAME WAY, ALL LIVING SOULS WERE IN ADAM!

    JESUS, THE SECOND ADAM. Well hinted out by Jesus in

    John4:32 But he said to them: I have meat to eat,

    which you know not. 

    33The disciples therefore said one to another: Hath any man brought him to eat? 34Jesus saith to them:

    My meat is to do the will of him that sent me,

    that I may perfect his work.

    WHICH IS GOD’S WORK AND IT IS NOT PERFECT! OBVIOUS:

    THE HUMAN BODY FORMED IN ADAM!

    PERFECTED IN/BY JESUS!

    THE NEW JERUSALEM!

    GOD DIDN’T CREATE ADAM PERFECT, BUT VERY GOOD ON THE WAY TO PERFECTION IN GOD’S WILL, SUBJECT TO ADAM’S FREE WILL,  BUT HE REJECTED GOD’S WILL, FELL, AND SATAN OWNED IT IMMEDIATELY ON EVE’S SIN!

    BY WHICH PROCESS JESUS OWNED THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF HUMANITY IN FLESH AND BLOOD, AND HE IS THE SOLE SOVEREIGN SPIRIT IN CREATION;

    ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HM, and ALL FOR HIM!

    BEFORE YOU EAT OR DRINK ANYTHING JUST SAY 

    THANK YOU JESUS!

    FORGIVE ME JESUS!

    JESUS WOULD BE IN YOU IN WHATEVER YOU ETA AND DRINK.

    YOUR ETERNAL LIFE!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943744
    Berean
    Participant

    “NOW, THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS, DON’T RECEIVE JUST THE BENEFIT OF HIS ETERNAL SPIRIT, THE HOLY GHOST, ON THEIR LAST DAY ON EARTH, WHERE THEY BECOME LIVING SOULS ON THEIR DEATH, THE SONS OF GOD! IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.,”

    Me

    You Say 👉WHERE THEY BECOME LIVING SOULS ON THEIR DEATH,

    Jesus never, ever taught this, but rather said that death is a sleep awaiting the resurrection “either to life or to judgment.

    👇

    John 5

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    [26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    [27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

     

    You

    “JESUS WOULD BE IN YOU IN WHATEVER YOU EAT AND DRINK.

    YOUR ETERNAL LIFE!”

    ME

    Very dangerous what you say Carmel
    Because it is a false teaching. Jesus is not in the food we eat.
    You push things to their extreme and it becomes a heresy that can lead to pantheism: nature is God….

    God in nature…..nature is God….there’s only one step….

    Watch out Carmel !

    🙏

     

    #943746
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….How can you say you “believe” Jesus, when you have turned him into your God,  something the man Jesus never did.  Jesus said this (not me). …..”this is life eternal, that they might know “YOU” THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD,  “AND” Jesus Christ w you have sent”.   5Does that sound to you like Jesus is saying he is God?

    So to me that makes you a hypocrite ,  out of one side of your mouth you say you believe him , out of the other side you disagree with what he said.  You even worship him as greater than GOD THE FATHER IS,  according your own words.

    BEING you think yo are so ‘SPIRITUAL MINDED”. Above us all,  here is a scripture you need to think about……..“but unto us there is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between God And men , the “MAN” Jesus Christ”.  Interesting, Paul and all true believers believed Jesus was a “MAN”,  and scripture says, “GOD is not a man, nor a Son of MAN” , Jesus was both man “and” a son of man,   SEEMS you have a mystery on your hands , but I am sure you can twist it all up somehow, with you long and useless posts that spin lies and misconceptions.    Here is your pigeon……2ths 2.

    peace and love to you and yours CARMEL………..gene

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