John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,261 through 24,280 (of 26,007 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #943674
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,
    You respond with NO! If we don’t need Jesus, what is the point of christianity?
    Explain John 3:16; sounds to me with Jesus – heaven (eternal life), without – hell (perish).
    Are you intentionally being obstinate? There is a point to my question, just answer it!

    #943675
    Berean
    Participant

    @dedire Truth

    Your last remodeled question was in your penultimate post the following:

    For brevity sake let me help you along;👉 is it safe to say, with Jesus you go to heaven and without Jesus you go to hell?👈

    I answered NO

    AND I GAVE BIBLICAL REASONS.
    IN Romans IN PARTICULAR.

    HAVE YOU READ THE VERSES?

    1) All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law,
    2) and all who have sinned with the law will be judged by the law.

    3) When the pagans, who have no law, naturally do what the law prescribes, they who have no law are a law unto themselves;

    they show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, …..

    It is God’s purpose, to write his law in hearts.

    And so Gentiles with the law of God written in their hearts will not go to hell. That’s what I understand.

    🙏

    #943676
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    YOU: It is God’s purpose, to write his law in hearts. And so Gentiles with the law of God written in their hearts will not go to hell.

    ME: If the law is written on our hearts and we will be judge accordingly, our salvation (either children of God or condemned) is hinged on how we uphold the law?!? If that’s the case, there is no point in having Jesus as our Messiah and the entire model of christianity is pointless.

    Except the law doesn’t save, the law only points out our sin.

    #943686
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Jesus was simply telling he was more “important” them Abraham to them,

    Not so. Read these words slowly. You can see the Pharisees clearly understood him to mean that he was older than Abraham and Jesus didn’t deny it. He affirmed it by saying “Before Abraham, I am”. Your teaching is “before Abraham, I wasn’t”. Once again, a complete opposite understanding. Are you operating in the opposite spirit? Because the fruit of your teaching is to take the opposite of many words spoken by Jesus Christ and the apostles. I think you should be concerned about this @genebalthrop. What is the opposite spirit to the one that Christ was operating under?

    57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
    58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
    59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

    #943687
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Now find the preexisting Jesus in the old testament…GO!

    Jesus Christ and his mission many other truths were hidden in Old Testament times. God’s plan was not fully revealed in the Old Testament.

    None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

    That said, we clearly have this for those who can discern with the Spirit of Truth.

    Isaiah 53

    1 Who has believed our message
        and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
        and like a root out of dry ground.
    He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
        nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
    3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
        a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
    Like one from whom people hide their faces
        he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
    4 Surely he took up our pain
        and bore our suffering,
    yet we considered him punished by God,
        stricken by him, and afflicted.
    5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
        he was crushed for our iniquities;
    the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
        and by his wounds we are healed.
    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
        each of us has turned to our own way;
    and the Lord has laid on him
        the iniquity of us all.
    7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
        yet he did not open his mouth;
    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
        and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
        so he did not open his mouth.
    8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
        Yet who of his generation protested?
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
        for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
        and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
        nor was any deceit in his mouth.
    10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
        and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
    he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
        and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
    11 After he has suffered,
        he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
    by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
        and he will bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
        and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
    because he poured out his life unto death,
        and was numbered with the transgressors.
    For he bore the sin of many,
        and made intercession for the transgressors.

    A carnal man will ignore that which is obvious to a spiritual man.

    #943688
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    You:A carnal man will ignore that which is obvious to a spiritual man.

    AMEN!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943689
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……Who here is denying Isaiah 53,  was not speaking about Jesus in prophesy.?
    but tell us what is met in verse 8,  …..who in “HIS GENERATION” protested.

    That term “in his generation”. Should tell you his generation was not at the time of that prophesy, “why” ?, because he did not then exist as a live being. The whole thing is a “prophesy” about a future event.  You can not use that to try to prove that Jesus was alive at the time that prophesy was given.  How come you can’t “spiritually “see that?

    peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……..gene

    #943690
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…….There is no proof of a “preexisting ” Jesus in any of our Old Testament scriptures at all, no one can produce a single scripture showing “ANY” activity of him being alive before his birth on this earth at all> the only thing they do is force texts to say what in fact it does not, by adding their own thoughts to the actual writings.  Jesus only existed in the plan and Will of GOD the Father, from the beginning of GOD’S creation of this earth and everything in it,  he did not live before his birth on this earth as a “root and offspring” of king David,  just as scripture and Jesus himself says.

    All teachings of a preexisting Jesus are simply put, a “LIE”,  in fact it is the biggest lie ever fostered on Christianity by Satan himself  and his ministers. IMO

    Peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

    #943691
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    “the only thing they do is force texts to say what in fact it does not, by adding their own thoughts to the actual writings.”

    Colossians 1 KJB

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is 👉before all things,👈 and by him all things consist. 

    🙏

    #943692
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    Isa 53 being about Jesus is completely false! So using this chapter as your “proof” produces a big, fat zero and is thrown out as evidence to your claim. You have ignored the preceding chapters and are cherry picking a couple verses from 53 to “prove” you found Jesus in the old testament because it sounds like Jesus in the new and thus remain under the spell of false religion, because it was religion who told you “Jesus” is being spoken of in Isa 53. Again, start in chapter 41 and read thru to 55 and place 53 in the context of what Isaiah wrote. This is not that hard!

    “5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;”

    Who is this “our” in verse 5? You, me, mankind? EXCEPT verse 5 is the continued thought from verse 1 and “Who has believed our message”? This “our” is whom? Did you, me, or mankind bring some message and to whom did we give it? What was this message? What a perplexing mystery!

    If Jesus is in Isa 53 you MUST take the entire chapter into consideration and explain the words of verse 10. How exactly did Jesus “see his offspring”, as far a I know Jesus didn’t have any kids. Explain exactly how Jesus’ days where “prolonged”, according to the gospels Jesus hung on a cross and died. If he Jesus is dead, how can the will of God “prosper in his hand”?

    Now let’s jump to verse 11; “by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many.” Jesus’ knowledge will justify many?!!?!? No kidding! For the last 30+ years the church has been telling me it was Jesus’ blood that justified me. Someone is a liar!

    Tell me in verse 12 of the spoils (plunder/booty) Jesus divided with the strong?

    Funny when reading the entire chapter your Jesus narrative starts to fall apart! BUT, I’m the one who is “carnal”. The reality is, I know how to read and comprehend AND apply the words in the context they have been written. I prefer to look at what God said verses what delusional man interprets.

    You also quote a passage from Paul (have a huge issue with him), who stated “according to scripture” “Christ died for our sins” “that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day”. If that’s according to scripture, it’s in the old testament, not buried between the line or verses taken out of context, but explicitly written. I haven’t seen those passages yet, nor has anyone produced them from the old testament. If this doesn’t pose an issue with you, it’s not the spirit of truth that is in you; it’s the spirit of religion that has consumed you and is your god.

    Are you still slumbering?

    #943693
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    I would love to hear an explanation from you concerning Col 1:16,17…but I won’t hold my breath.

    How about a response to the law being written on the Gentile heart and not going to hell. Is that what you understand and believe because it’s scripturally sound or you believe it because this is what you were told? Your statement doesn’t answer the question of with/without Jesus and where you go.

    If Jesus preexisted it would be all over the old testament, why would the Almighty hide his begotten son. I forgot, “God’s plan was not fully revealed in the Old Testament” (nice catch phrase when you can’t explain something). Is this because God’s chosen people were to ignorant to understand what HE told them and today we are superior to God’s chosen because we have “Jesus”? Careful where you go with that one…

    #943694
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior?

    #943695
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    Don’t worry, I’ll answer you as soon as I have the time .

    #943696
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer……Who here is denying Isaiah 53,  was not speaking about Jesus in prophesy.?

    Answer: Desiretruth is.

    There is no proof of a “preexisting ” Jesus in any of our Old Testament scriptures at all, no one can produce a single scripture showing “ANY” activity of him being alive before his birth on this earth at all

    Jesus is not mentioned by name in the Old Testament. But the New Testament tells us he was the Word that was with God in the beginning. That all things were made through him and for him as the Word and Son of God. If you do not believe that he is both the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn from the dead as being  another attribute, then you do not really believe in the New Testament, so you might as well just be straight up with us.

    That said, the Old Testament talks of the Angel of the Lord and many suspect that is Jesus. There are some good reasons for this, but regardless, the revelation of Jesus Christ is primarily the New Testament and you either believe it or not. I believe what the New Testament says about Jesus is true. It appears that you guys do not believe the New Testament which is part of God’s plan and is a greater revelation or further revelation.

    #943698
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    YOU: “Jesus is not mentioned by name in the Old Testament.”

    ME: THANK YOU!! Yet somehow he will be found in its writings by modern day “scholars.” And you don’t question this?!?!?

    The “word that was with God in the beginning”; BUT what does “word/logos” mean? For you, by the use of circular reasoning, means Jesus. What it really means “to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.” However that doesn’t fit in your churchy definition and thus rejected. Even though Heraclitus coined and defined the term, yours is superior, because “God’s plan was not fully revealed in the old testament.”

    Believing if Jesus is the first born of anything isn’t relevant to anything concerning whether or not I “believe in the new testament.” Since when did that become a qualification to determine the veracity of the new testament?

    “Angel of the Lord”, “many suspect it’s Jesus”…so there is no evidence to make such a claim, but we’re going to anyways. Sounds a bit suspicious to me. What does “angel” mean? Glad you asked; it simply means “messenger.” So a “messenger of the Lord” conducted business on behalf of God and you equate this angel with Jesus. Stunning!!

    You believe what the new testament says about Jesus is truth; that is fantastic, you are free to believe what you want and I won’t stop you. I do NOT take anything at face value anymore and will verify what I am being told. I no longer have an “I Believe Button” I smash when told something. Have you verified anything I have said? My guess, NOPE! You will just continue to double down on your religion, rejecting anything that goes against it, which sadly is typical.

    By the way, the fact you offered no response to what I said about Isa 53 speaks volumes. Hopefully it will trigger you to investigate, but I won’t hold my breath.

    #943699
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Tell me why you became a “christian”? What was said that “opened” your eyes? Was it the possibility of not going to heaven?

    #943707
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”  for the words simply meaning we must take his life to ourselves,

    and become exactly like him

    Me: First and foremost!

    JESUS WAS MORE THAN CERTAIN THAT HUMANS NEVER BE IN A POSITION TO BECOME LIKE HIM!

    THE FACT THAT HE EMPTIED HIMSELF AND BECAME IN ALL THINGS LIKE US.

    THE ONLY WAY TO RETURN BACK TO THE FATHER!

    I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE  No man cometh to the Father,

    but by me.

    You: Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”

    YES, YOUR PERCEPTIONS ARE ALWAYS  A ONE WAY ROAD, TO DISCREDIT  JESUS’DIVINE HUMAN PROCESS,

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    PRECISELY FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH AND GOD’S LOVE FOR US,  DESPITE  SATANIC ON EVE’S SIN; THE MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING IN THE MORTAL FLESH AND BLOOD!

    FROM THEN ON HUMANITY BECAME DESPERATE AND IN NEED OF A NEW HEART OF FLESH, DEFINITELY NOT OF THIS PLANET, AS FROM CAIN’S CONCEPTION, SATAN’S FIRSTBORN, IN WHOM JESUS AS A LAMB WAS SLAIN….Rev.13:8

    THEY RECEIVED A HEART OF STONE!

    Ezekiel 36:26And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.

    PRECISELY JESUS, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN, THE ENGRAFTED WORD, AND ETERNAL LIFE WITHIN THE HUMAN HEART, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD IN ADAM!

    The fact that it is “ENGRAFTED”

    James 1:21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ENGRAFTED word, which is able to save your souls.

    You: for the words simply meaning we must take his life to ourselves,

    and become exactly like him

    Gene, Read the scripture hereunder, and stick to it throughout, not only where it pleases your carnal-minded understandings!

    Ephesians 2:1And you,

     when you were DEAD in your offences, and sins,

    2Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world,

    according to the prince of the power of this air,

    of the spirit that now worketh on the children of unbelief:3In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts,

    and were by NATURE children of WRATH, even as the rest:

    ME: CHILDREN OF SATAN!

    4But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,

     5Even when we were dead in sins,

    hath quickened us TOGETHER IN CHRIST,

    (by whose grace you are saved,) 

    6And hath raised us up together,

    Me: GOT IT Gene?

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE WAS RECREATED ANEW, BORN ANEW,

    ALL AUTHENTIC IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’BODY

    THE SON OF MAN:

    ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE, Hebrews 1:3

    by which SUBSTANCE THE FATHER BECAME OUR SAVIOR! Genesis 22:8

    THUS:

    JESUS, THE FATHER’S GIFT and

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, Satan’s curse

    BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE IN JESUS’ GLORIFIED  BODY,

    GIVEN TO US BY THE FATHER’S IMMENSE CHARITY, ON HIS RESURRECTION FOR OUR SAKE ALL IN ONE SAME UNIQUE IMMORTAL BLOOD,

    WITH A NEW HEART OF FLESH,

     OF THE FATHER’S SPIRIT. Well asserted in the last supper:

    Luke 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying:

    This is my body, WHICH IS GIVEN FOR YOU.

    Do this for a commemoration of me.

    JESUS’ BODY WAS GIVEN TO JESUS BY THE FATHER, Hebrews10:5, NOT FOR HIM AS SUCH, HE WAS ALREADY IN FULL GLORY WITH THE FATHER John17:5, BUT FOR US, IN ORDER TO BECOME ONE SUBSTANCE IN/WITH CHRIST,

    CHILDREN OF GOD IN CHRIST!

    Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;

    heirs indeed of God,

    and JOINT heirs with Christ:

    yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

    WHERE RIGHT NOW WE ARE AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD IN CHRIST’S BODY.

    THIS OCCURRED NOT ON HIS RESURRECTION AS SUCH, AS ON HIS RESURRECTION WE WERE ALL AUTHENTIC BRETHREN, BUT THAT SAME EVENING WHEN THE HOLY GHOST IN THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN ON THE CROSS Johnn13:31,32, John17:2 and

    JESUS’RSURRECTED BODY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL IN JESUS,

    THE SON OF MAN!

    INTEGRATED AND BECAME 

    ONE GLORIFIED FLESH AND BLOOD DIVINE BODY IN

    JESUS CHRIST!

    I REPEAT:

    IN ONE SAME BLOOD AND ONE SAME GOD AND FATHER OF TH HUMAN RACE!

    John17:11 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    2As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

    that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.

    Now let’s go back to Ephesians 2

    and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places,

    through Christ Jesus.

    7That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus.

     8For by grace you are saved through faith,

    and that not of yourselves,

    for it is THE GIFT OF GOD;

    9Not of works, that no man may glory. 

    10For we are his workmanship,

    HIS MASTERPIECE!

    created in Christ Jesus in good works,

    which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

    You: Carmel……Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”

    ME: WE WILL TACKLE THE ABOVE IN THE NEXT POST!

    IN THE MEANTIME:

    SIT DOWN CALM DOWN AND CHEW!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943715
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    PROCLAIMER: “Jesus is not mentioned by name in the Old Testament.”

    DESIRETRUTH: THANK YOU!! Yet somehow he will be found in its writings by modern day “scholars.” And you don’t question this?!?!?

    Thanks for what exactly? No one on planet earth believes that the name of Jesus is in the Old Testament. Jesus was not revealed to the world in the time the Old Testament was written. The point you are trying to make here is a big fat nothingburger.

    #943717
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Who is this “our” in verse 5? You, me, mankind? EXCEPT verse 5 is the continued thought from verse 1 and “Who has believed our message”? This “our” is whom? Did you, me, or mankind bring some message and to whom did we give it? What was this message? What a perplexing mystery!

    Let’s start in verse Isaiah 53 verse 4.

    Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

    Mathew writes that Jesus fulfilled this:

    That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,  Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

    Isaiah verse 5 says:

    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    I think Peter can answer this for you in his letter (Chapter 2).

    21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

    23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

    24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    Verse 25 is interesting. It seems to be talking about either mankind or Israel.

    So Isaiah 53 verse 1 could be talking about the unbelief of Israel regarding the servant which is basically a narrative in the New Testament. So it could be referring to the messengers of God and Christ or those who preach that Jesus is the Christ of whom Israel basically rejects. Further, because the message is to go to all the earth, it is also rejected by many others, but seems to have found a home with many Gentiles as is also written.

    Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

    #943718
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    If only verse 1 was talking about the unbelief of Israel, and being prefaced by “could be” tell me you’re not really sure yourself and are guessing. When was the last time you picked up a book, read a random paragraph from it, and where able to discuss what the book was about? My guess never, so why would you do that with God’s Word?

    Let’s take a closer look at verse 1:

    “Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?”

    In the first part we have “our message” and you’re unsure who this “our” is; it’s the second part that reveals who the “our” is. The one who is speaking has had the “arm of Jehovah” revealed to them. This is where it gets exciting; we must jump back to chapter 52:10 “Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations.”

    So God has revealed his arm to all the nations of the world and it’s the kings of the world who are speaking in “unison” in Isa 53:1-9 (obviously not literally, this is poetry). What can’t the kings believe is happening before their eyes, this unbelievable message? In Isa 52:7-12 God’s servant Israel/Jacob has been restored. The first nine verses of Isa53 explain what the nations did to Israel, how they treated them, how they oppressed them, it was Israel fault for what the kings did to them, it was their fault for their oppression by the kings of the nations.

    Then it goes on in Isa 53:10-12, that through this refining process (crushed and afflicted – their oppression) and turning from their guilt back to God, HE would bless them. What a promise for them!

    This entire section is about God’s love for HIS servant Israel/Jacob and the promise that one day HE will restore HIS people. And God’s people will become a light to the world. If you are going to spend your entire time in the new testament and not go back to the old, your missing God’s true nature. Your missing the beauty of who HE is.

    Do you understand why I don’t see Jesus in these passages anymore? Verify what I am saying, see if it’s truth or not; I can’t make you do it, you have to make that decision. Will you go on believing what your religion told you to believe or will you start down the path to discovery and begin verifying what you were told is truth? Will you remain content or begin a new journey?

Viewing 20 posts - 24,261 through 24,280 (of 26,007 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account