John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #943624
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT.

    You: You referenced Isa 43 and say it points to Jesus,

    First and foremost, I repeat:

    I AM NOT EXPECTING ANYONE WOULD AGREE WITH MY PREACHING.

    I AM NOT HERE TO PLEASE MEN IN FLESH AND BLOOD!

    BUT THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!

    THUS,

    MY PERSPECTIVES ARE TOTALLY SPIRITUAL!

    Now to your CARNAL PERSPECTIVES,

    MORE DEAD THAN ALIVE IN JESUS, 

    THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER????

    WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU

    The carnal perspectives MUST BE FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH IN JESUS  as HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND  FATHER OF ALL FLESH ON THIS PLANET John17:2, John20:17 otherwise 

    it counts for nothing 

    Romans 8:6 For the wisdom of the flesh is death;

    but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.

    7Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be.

    8And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God.

    9But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

    Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,

    he is none of his.

    It His spirit( THE FATHER’S AND THE SON’S :

    I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE!)  that gives life to all of His work!

    Proverb 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes;

    but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

    The fact that God, as Gene CARNALLY mentioned, KILLED HIS OWN  “WORD” MADE FLESH,

    JESUS’HUMAN NATURE!

    SIMPLY TO RETURN BACK TO HIS ORIGINAL PHYSICAL /SPIRIT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS 

    IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER John17:5

     OFFICIALLY GLORIFIED IN THE SPIRITUAL REALMS IN SPIRITUAL FLESH!

    GODMAN!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT INT’S YOUR PIGEON!

    THE SON OF MAN. Matthew 28:18

    PLUS THAT NOW HE IS THE ONLY SOVEREIGN GOD OVER THE ENTIRE CREATION!

    Jude 1:4 For certain men are secretly entered in, (who were written of long ago unto this judgment,) ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness,

    and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    BOTH SPIRIT AND PHYSICAL

    BOTH HEAVENLY AND EARTHLY:  Matthew 28:18

     

    NOW to be clear, ATTENTION PLEASE:

     HE IS UNIQUE!

    THE HIGHEST!

    FOR THE PLEASURE OF GOD THE FATHER!

    TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD, WHEN GOD WOUD BE ALL IN ALL IN/AS JESUS CHRIST! 

    ONLY JESUS  RIGHT NOW, AS HE ALWAYS WAS BUT HIDDEN FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH,  IS THE OWNER OF THE PROCESS OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD, AND

    THE FATHER OF IT! John20:17,John17:2

    HE IS YOUR FATHER AND YOUR GOD, BT. 

     IN RELATION TO YOUR FLESH AND BLOOD, 

    NOTHING OF THE FATHER, WHO IS ONLY SPIRIT AND THE FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS, ALIVE THOUGH! 

    AND FOR THE HUMAN RACE, ALIVE ONLY THROUGH JESUS’ DEATH,  ATTENTION AGAIN PLEASE:

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HUMAN FLESH WAS EX-LUCIFER’S SPIRIT, DEAD

    ON HIS REBELLION

    AND SATAN’S THROUGH EVE’S SIN.

    FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH IN JESUS THROUGH EVE’S SIN!

    THE MOTHER OF ALL THE LIVING IN THE FLESH AND BLOOD SUBSTANCE!

    IF I WERE YOU ABANDON THE OT.

    SPIRITUALLY DEAD! 

    BLIND OF THE ONLY TRUE GOD BY THE JEWS, AND ONLY ACCEPTED GOD DUE

    TO FEAR  RATHER THAN LOVE! Exodus 20:19

    IT IS FULFILLED BY JESUS, THE MAN!

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND IN THE FLESH ON EARTH!

    Luke 5: 36And he spoke also a similitude to them: That no man putteth a piece from a new garment upon an old garment; otherwise he both rendeth the new,

    and the piece taken from the new agreeth not with the old.

    37And no man putteth new wine into old bottle: otherwise the new wine will break the bottles, and it will be spilled, and the bottles will be lost.

    38But new wine must be put into new bottles;

    and both are preserved.

    39And no man drinking old,

    hath presently a mind to new: for he saith,

    The old is better.

    I DOUBT WHETHER YOU ARE EVEN A CHRISTIAN IN THE TRUTH!

    NOW HERE IS AS PIRITUAL TRUTH FOR YOU TO PONDER ON.

    Mark 11:14 And answering he said to it: May no man hereafter EAT FRUIT of

    thee any more FOREVER.

    And his disciples heard it.

     

    ANSWER: TO WHOM JESUS SPOKE?

    TO THE FIG TREE? HA, HA, HA,

    WHAT WAS ITS’ FRUIT ACCORDING TO JESUS????

    DIDN’T JESUS, THE CARRIER OF GOD THE FATHER ON EARTH,  KNOW

    THAT THE TREE NEVER HAD FIGS? HA, HA, HA,

    Now in contrast to the above read hereunder please:

    John6: 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

    If any man eat of this bread,

    he shall live forever;

    and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying:

    How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you:

    Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood,

    you shall not have life in you.

    54He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life:

    and I will raise him up in the last day.

    WHEN IS YOUR LAST DAY ON EARTH BT?

    55For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

    56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,

    abideth in me, and I in him.

    57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father;

    so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

    58This is the bread that came down from heaven.

    Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead.

    ME: SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    He that eateth this bread, shall live FOREVER.

    BT. YOU AND I ARE PULLING THE SAME ROPE ALRIGHT BUT

    IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION!

    WE SHOULDN’T WASTE TIME!

    I DELAYED MY PARTICIPATION PURPOSELY, BUT NOW I MOSTLY READ YOUR POST  IN ORDER TO READ YOUR PERCEPTIONS AS I WAS RATHER HANDICAPPED REGARDING YOUR BELIEF, WHILE YOU ON THE OTHER HAND,

    HAD LOADS OF MY POSTS AT YOUR DISPOSITION TO READ ABOUT MINE!

    Me: NOW WHERE DID I QUOTE ISAIAH 43?

    GO BACK PLEASE AND READ AGAIN

    what I said and in the meantime, I have to ponder on your post,

    ALWAYS IN RELATION TO ITS’ SPIRIT!

    WHETHER IT IS OF THE GOOD SPIRIT OR NOT!

    WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943626
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Ordinary Jesus Brigade have a lot of issues with these words of Jesus in John 8:48-59

    48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
    49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge.
    51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
    52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’
    53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?”
    54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’
    55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
    57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
    58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
    59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

    The Ordinary Jesus Brigade of course have excuses to try and get around what the text is saying. I am sure we will see some of those excuses now.

    #943628
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Jesus was simply telling he was more “important” them Abraham to them,  the Jews trusted in their relationship to Abraham as the sign that made them important to God, they used that all the time even to JOHN the Baptist  who told them God could raise up stone to Abraham if he wanted to.  The Jews even use this today, they think their relationship to him makes them special.  Jesus was simple telling them he was more important than ABRAHAM was, in fact he was even mention in scripture before Abraham was.  Remember,  where it say, “and her seed shall bruise your head”.  Abraham was an important figure no doubt, but Jesus is far more important.  Trying to force the text to say Jesus was “alive before Abraham” is simply not true.  Jesus never said he preexisted his birth on this earth,  except in prophesy,  he was mention often.

    peace and love to you and your Proclaimer……….gene

    #943629
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……Jesus saying we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, is a “METAPHOR”  for the words simply meaning we must take his life to ourselves, and become exactly like him.

    when you eat of drink something you are taking it into yourself and it becomes part of “your” very existence.   Fact is if you don’t do that you have “no life in you”.

    When God told Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree (that which produces from self) the knowledge of good and evil, lest they die, he was saying the same thing, God the Father  warned them of what would be the outcome if they decided to “eat”. (take to themselves) to decide and experience for themselves, what was good and what was evil for them , it would ultimately bring death on them> And that is exactly what happened .

    Carmel you lack the ability to understand “metaphorical ” language, it appears. Without which you simply can’t understand some scriptures written in our bible text.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene

     

    #943630
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    “Trying to force the text to say Jesus was “alive before Abraham” is simply not true.  Jesus never said he preexisted his birth on this earth,  except in prophesy,  he was mention often.”

    Me

    Scriptures

    👇

    Col.1
    [17] And he(Jesus) is👉 before all things,👈 

    and 

    👉 by him 👈 

    👉 all things consist.

    🙏

    #943631
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Now find the preexisting Jesus in the old testament…GO!

    #943632
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    The proofs have already been given a long time ago.

    Do a search on the forum….
    If you can’t find it, ask God.

    Why won’t you find when many have found….?

    🙏

    #943660
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Those aren’t proofs, they’re doctrines and I have thrown out doctrine in favor of scriptural truth. If doctrine cannot be confirmed by scripture, it’s man made in my eyes. Now I asked to find a preexistent Jesus in the old testament, not the new…begin!

    Riddle me this, what is “christianity” truly based on? If you say “love”, before that; if you say “Jesus’ sacrifice”,  before that. What is your faith truly based on? This blew my mind this morning when it hit me like a tonne of bricks.

    #943661
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Let me rephrase the question, what is modern “christianity” truly based on?

    #943662
    Berean
    Participant

    @desire Truth

    For me, true Christianity is summarized (among others) in Revelation 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints:👉 here are they that keep the commandments of ELOHIYM, and the faith of YAHSHUA.👈

     

    🙏

     

    #943663
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    If you don’t keep the commands or the faith, then what?

    #943664
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus work together.
    Without Jesus, we can’t do anything…

    I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

    2
    Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he takesth away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    3
    Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    4
    Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    5
    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:👉 for without me ye can do nothing.👈(John 15)

    🙏

    #943665
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You’re trying to make it “spiritual” and are missing it. Go basic, like you’re telling a child; without this, you receive this.

    #943666
    Berean
    Participant

    Explain your means of salvation to you, you haven’t said anything yet.

    #943667
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Salvation and how you get it isn’t the question, the question is “what is modern christianity truly based on?”

    Don’t make this complicated, think basic like a child – “with this, you receive this; without this, you receive this.”

    #943668
    Berean
    Participant

    Do you think you are doing BETTER than modern Christianity by dismissing the real MESSIAH?

    #943669
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    For brevity sake let me help you along; is it safe to say, with Jesus you go to heaven and without Jesus you go to hell?

    #943671
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……..I think Desire Truth, is not trying to dismiss Jesus as a messiah, but simply trying to get you to see him in a right way.  The way the Old Testament Jew’s viewed him.  They saw Jesus as a descendent of king David, not as a “preexisting” being  who was “morphed” into a human being from some kind of past life as you view him.

    I also see Jesus as a real human being who came into his “only” existence at the prophesied time and was indeed a descendent of king David , as scripture says he was.  Your view of him as some preexisting super being is a false view.  I think that is what Desire truth is trying to get you to come to see.  He is not denying the man Jesus, but your and many others false view of him as a preexisting “God” or super human being of some kind.  He is basically telling us if we don’t see Jesus through the way the Old Testament see him, then we will have a wrong view of him.  I agree with him on that also.

    Remember the Apostle Paul told us to search the scriptures to see if the things being told us was true or not,  and the “ONLY” scriptures they had was the Old Testament scriptures at that time.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

    #943672
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    NO

    Read

    👇

    God
    [6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    [7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
    [8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    [9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    [11] For 👉there is no respect of persons with God.👈
    [12] For👉 as many as have sinned without law👈 shall also👉 perish without law:👈 and as many as have sinned in 👉the law shall be judged by the law;👈
    [13]👉 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.👈
    [14] For when the Gentiles, 👉which have not the law,👈
    👉 do by nature the things contained in the law, 👈 these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    [15] Which shew👉 the work of the law written in their hearts,👈 their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    [16] In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men👉 by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    👇

    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14
    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15
    For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.(Rev.22)

    🙏

    #943673
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Jesus never spoke the language of wood…
    When he says, “Before Abraham was, I am.”

    IT MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT MEANS: JESUS AS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM….

    AND EVEN IN JOHN 17….

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    YAHSHUA said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

     

    🙏

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