John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,081 through 24,100 (of 26,007 total)
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  • #943387
    Berean
    Participant

    EH OH I ANSWERED YOU

    #943388
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    You have yet to answer what it means to “come down”, is Jesus “coming down” the same as manna “coming down” from heaven?

    You said Christ was equal with God, I asked for scripture to support it; have not received any.

    You said God “required” a “partner” to redeem and judge the world, I asked for scripture; have not received any

    I asked for any scriptures in the old testament that states Christ preexisted in a spirit in heaven; nothing yet.

    You said the Archangel Michael was Jesus in the old testament, I asked for evidence; none given.

    I asked what “foreordained/foreknown” means and how it is understood by the Jew; no answer to date.

    Did you ever do a word study on “son of man”?

    Haven’t reconciled Deut 18 to a preexistent Christ yet.

    Which scriptural translation is the perfect one?

    Who is the servant being spoken of in Isa chapters 41-52? Why is only one of them a reference to Jesus?

    When do I get these answers?

    #943389
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

    Luke 1: 1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the Word;

    4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. 44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved…34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the Word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

    2 Tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    John 6:62-63 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? (speaking of his resurrection). It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the Words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, Promised before the world began;

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by (reason of) him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    The WORD is Spirit and it is Life. The WORD is the Gospel, the kingdom of God where the Spirit dwells in man causing man to walk in all of God’s ways whereby such there is righteousness unto eternal life. 

    The man Jesus was anointed with God’s Spirit to preach the WORD. That which he preached CONCERNED HIMSELF and all who believed in him. He preached of the Kingdom of God, the resurrection unto eternal life, being born of the Spirit and entering into God’s Kingdom AND ALL THEREIN WAS DECLARED BY GOD FROM THE BEGINNNG.

    Jesus preached THE WORD that had been WITH God from the beginning, THE WORD that is God, for God is Spirit and He is Life. THE WORD is to be born of God’s Spirit whereby such you are able to enter the Kingdom of God unto Eternal Life.

    Jesus was indeed born of the Spirit where he was THEN SENT OUT into the world, an only begotten Son of God, the only mortal man filled with the Spirit without measure, filled with grace and truth, led by the Spirit of God in all his ways. He died but was resurrected having received THE PROMISED SPIRIT where he ENTERED GOD’S ETERNAL KINGDOM EXALTED TO SIT AT HIS RIGHT HAND. Such was glory that God had declared for this Son of Man before the world began where all things were made by reason of him and for him. It is the firstborn of many brethren, a Son of Man that sits on an eternal throne who is led by the Spirit of God and thus is a Son of God.

    There is NO Son of God going back to his previous glory, there is a Son of Jesse who brings peace and righteousness to earth through being LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD whereby he is a SON OF GOD. This is God’s WORD that had been declared from the beginning, that one man would be called to fulfill all of God’s will, to fulfill God’s purpose for why He, ALONE, BY HIMSELF, had created earth in the first place, for it to be inhabited by man where man walks in all of God’s ways through His Spirit.

    The anointed Jesus preached THE WORD and that WORD was fulfilled in him. For those who believe in this truth, THE WORD is then fulfilled in them.

    #943390
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Gene asked a great question, “WHEN are you going to start putting things written in our scriptures TOGETHER?”

    John 17:114 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 

    What does Jesus have with them in common besides they all are not of the world and they all were sent into the world?

    Answer: God’s Spirit came to dwell in Jesus where he was then sent out into the world to preach the Gospel, to do God’s work where he performed miracles, these too where given gifts of the Spirit and sent out into the world to do the same.

    If they and Jesus where not of the world and were sent into the world where were they coming from?

    Answer: They came from God and thus they came down from heaven for the purpose that they speak heavenly things and do heavenly works, according to our Father’s will.

    The Spirit of God descended from heaven and came to dwell in Jesus where he was then sent out into the world to speak heavenly words and do heavenly works. With the Spirit upon him he was not earthly, he was heavenly, doing all works that were coming down from heaven, doing all things according to our heavenly Father.

    Jesus spoke as the Son of Man to whom prophecy (God’s Word) was fulfilled. Jesus didn’t send himself, he didn’t speak his own words or do his own works, he was a messenger from heaven a messenger of God.

    Think about it Proclaimer, what better way can the anointed man Jesus explain himself?

    The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing. Heavenly and godly mean the same thing. Of God and of heaven mean the same thing.

    The PROMISED Son of Man says that the Father sent him that is the exact same thing as him also saying that the Son of Man came down from heaven.

    The WORD of God from the prophets was fulfilled in the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth. The Spirit descending like a dove, is God’s WORD coming down from heaven, the promised anointed son of David coming down from heaven being made true in the flesh where people beheld the glory of one FILLED with the Spirit, FULL of grace and truth.

    #943391
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    You have yet to answer what it means to “come down”, is Jesus “coming down” the same as manna “coming down” from heaven?

    me

    Ah good?

    “come down” from Heaven
    this is to be taken

    👉literally.👈

    Jesus came out of the bosom of the Father WHO IS IN THE HEAVEN (literal) and he came into this world.(literal)
    as he says in John 16:28

    I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.( who is at HEAVEN)

    For the rest, we will see later, although I have already partly answered you.

     

    🙏

     

    #943392
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    There is NO Son of God going back to his previous glory….

    Me

    WRONG!

    Jesus said:

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee👉 before the world was.(John 17:5)

    AND

    1) I came forth from

    the Father,( HEAVEN)

    👇

    2) and am come into the world:

    again,

    3) I leave the world, and go to the Father👉 (HEAVEN).(John 16:28)

    🙏

     

    #943393
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene asked a great question, “WHEN are you going to start putting things written in our scriptures TOGETHER?”

    Not sure what the question was. But when you put scriptures together you get this. It is the story of the New Testament. Not all believe of course. Let every person make up their own mind whether they believe the New Testament or not.

    He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came down from heaven, came in the flesh, humbled himself, lived as one of us, was obedient to God, died for our sakes, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos. He is the firstborn of all creation and firstborn from the dead. He is given first place in all things. His name is the Word of God. All things were made for him and through him. He is the only begotten son, the Lord, and the messiah. He lived as a man like us so that we could live as a Son like him. God spared no expense on our salvation by purchasing us with the blood of his own son.

    Have a good day!

    #943394
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Funny what happens when people who are shown their thinking is incorrect; they start looking for other things to argue about, all the while ignoring the truth that just slapped them in the face.

    Philippians 2:6-11

    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
        did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
        by taking the very nature of a servant,
        being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
        he humbled himself
        by becoming obedient to death—
            even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
        and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
        in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
        to the glory of God the Father.

    John 6:62
    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Revelation 19:13
    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    Colossians 1:15-18
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Revelation 22:16
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    #943395
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Do you see how you aren’t explaining what “come down from heaven” means? To simply quote another verse that has “come down” doesn’t give meaning, it shows you found another verse that says the same thing (John 6 is your jackpot 🙂 ). Explain what it means to “come down from heaven” to be “from heaven.”

    Is to “come down” to pass through heavenly realm, traverse the cosmos, enter our atmosphere, and land on this planets surface?

    #943396
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    Can’t say that I deflect and veer off course onto another topic as what happened with the “my Father, your Father”, “my God, your God” discussion when it moved to “going to”/ascending to” after I posted scripture confirming the father and God of Jesus is the same father and God to us.

    Now for two of you to use my line to poke at me like I am missing the truth, falls flat; in your case, you site a bunch of verses that, for you, confirm what you believe is truth. This doesn’t make your understanding the truth; you haven’t explained what the verse means to you, what the verses are trying to convey to you, or what you believe the intent of the writer is. To just quote a verse doesn’t explain or prove anything; an explanation supported by scripture, now we can move in a direction.

    I am still waiting for an explanation of what it mean to be the “literal firstborn of all creation”?

    Have you noticed the amount of bickering that happens concerning the new testament, why can’t we be in agreement if this is truly “God’s inspired word”? If it is, there would/should be zero confusion or argument to what the words mean or are trying to convey. Something is amiss…and every post where there is confrontation proves it.

    #943397
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    You

    Do you see how you aren’t explaining what “come down from heaven” means? To simply quote another verse that has “come down” doesn’t give meaning, it shows you found another verse that says the same thing (John 6 is your jackpot 🙂 ). Explain what it means to “come down from heaven” to be “from heaven.”

    Is to “come down” to pass through heavenly realm, traverse the cosmos, enter our atmosphere, and land on this planets surface?

    Me

    Don’t tell me you don’t know what the Bible says about it. Jesus came to earth to be our saviour. He was in the HEAVEN WITH THE FATHER IN GOD FORM AND HE CAME TO OUR EARTH AND WAS MADE FLESH.

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not difficult to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    🙏

    #943398
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You tell me what scripture says about “coming from heaven”! Don’t you dare throw this back in my court as I am asking YOU to explain what YOU believe it means! You are revealing something, you are simply parroting what you are told to believe and you have no idea why you believe what you believe.

    YOU:

    He was in the HEAVEN WITH THE FATHER IN GOD FORM AND HE CAME TO OUR EARTH AND WAS MADE FLESH.

    ME:

    Site the verse that states this and then explain why you believe what you believe!

    You site the Phil 2 verses and still don’t explain it’s meaning! To site a verse without explaining it does nothing! Tell me what it means to you! Tell me what it means through a Jewish understanding!

    #943400
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……YOU CHERRY PICK a few verses, but leave out all the many, many scriptures that they must conformed to, in order to be correctly understood and to get a more clear understanding of what the scriptures you use actually mean. Everything has to fit in order to draw a true conclusion.   That is. Why I said to you ,you seem unable to put them “TOGETHER”. You are leaving out tons of scriptures that tell a different story in order to from a sound conclusion,  you are doing what so many do here. It is the sum of the scriptures that produce the , “TRUE PICTURE”,  NOT just a little tidbit here and there.

    Jodi has taken us through scripture after scripture and has put them ,  “CORRECTLY”  TOGETHER,  time and time again.  She has established Jesus’ origin from many, many, scriptures.  Why not just read them and see how they fit your belief system for a change?

    peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……….gene

    #943401
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Jodi has taken us through scripture after scripture and has put them ,  “CORRECTLY”  TOGETHER,  time and time again.  She has established Jesus’ origin from many, many, scriptures.  Why not just read them and see how they fit your belief system for a change? 

    Me

     

    WRONG!

     

    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be 👉RULER👈 in Israel; 

    👉WHOSE GOINGS FORTH HAVE BEEN FROM OLD, 👈

    👉FROM EVERLASTING👈

    🙏

     

    #943402
    Berean
    Participant

    👇

    [5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which👉 I HAD WITH THEE👈      👉BEFORE 

    THE

    WORLD WAS👈 

    🙏

    #943403
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    When you leave out scriptures you create deception.

    The Son of Man was raised from the dead “now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David”. 

    This Jesus God raised up where he received the Promised Holy Spirit. 

    The Son of Man became a firstborn of many brethren.

    The Son of Man was exalted to God’s right hand. 

    The Son of Man is returning in our Father’s glory. 

    The Son of Man with God’s Spirit upon him is going to fulfill all of God’s will, he will judge the world, he is going to destroy enemies, he is going to reward the just and he is going to bring peace upon the whole earth. 

    God had declared from the beginning this glory for this man, the son of David who would fulfill all of His will, the very purpose that God had created all things by reason of and for in the first place. 

    If Jesus was indeed a man able to die who knew of prophecies concerning himself and who was also a prophet himself like unto Moses, raised up from among his brethren, he knew he was going to suffer, be crucified and die. He also knew and had faith in God that his body would not be allowed to see decay, that he would be resurrected unto life, no longer able to die anymore and that he was the man promised to be exalted to God’s right hand. He knew he was the man who would sit on his father David’s throne and rule over his brethren with God’s Spirit living in him and leading him, where he is thus a Son of God. Jesus knew full well that this was all God’s glory for him that had been with God before the world began, that he was the man who would fulfill God’s purpose for having created all things in the first place.

    Jesus prayed in John 17 to his God and our God, his Father and our Father, of his faith and trust in God and in His plan to which God had indeed declared from the beginning.

    Once again, there is NO Son going back to his glory.

    Jesus entered his glory as a man raised from the dead where many people were a witness and it caused them to have faith in God’s Word. Jesus became God’s Word made true in the flesh where others believed that the Word also applied to them, they too would be humans raised from the dead receiving God’s Promised Spirit unto righteousness and eternal life becoming eternal Sons of God living in His kingdom.

    Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Jesus never taught that he pre-existed or that he was our Creator, he taught that he was the promised anointed human who would fulfill the reason why God, who ALONE, by HIMSELF, had created earth and man in the first place.

    1 John 1 speaks to Jesus having become God’s Word of Life, a promise for mankind declared from the beginning, made true in him. Jesus became the firstborn overall of God’s Eternal Creation. God had promised in Psalms 89 that he would make a son of David into His firstborn and make him higher than all the kings. God did not take a firstborn and make him into a son of David, as said you leave out scripture which then causes you to create deception and I will add complete contradiction.

    #943404
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    Jesus never taught that he pre-existed or that he was our Creator, he taught that he was the promised anointed human who would fulfill the reason why God, who ALONE, by HIMSELF, had created earth and man in the first place.  

    Me

    WRONG

    You twist the scriptures

    Jesus did pre-exist, otherwise he would not have said to the incredulous Jews:

    BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS 👉I AM👈

    JOHN THE BAPTIST ALSO ACKNOWLEDGED THAT JESUS WAS BEFORE HIM:

    John 1:30

    [30] This is 👉 he👈 of whom I said, After me cometh 👉a man 👈which is preferred before me: 👉for he was before me.👈 

     

    🙏

     

    #943405
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……I would be teaching my children “exactly” what I did .  

    YOUR words turns Jesus into a hypocrite ,  

    why would he ever tell us to do what he doesn’t himself do?

    Me: NO Gene IN A WAY, that’s your corrupted mentality and reasoning!

    JESUS WAS NOT PRAYING IN THAT PARTICULAR  CASE!

    WHENEVER JESUS PRAYED, MOSTLY HE WENT ALL BY HIMSELF, EVEN WHEN HE WAS WITH HIS APOSTLES!

    Read:

    Matthew 26:36 36Then Jesus came with them into a country place which is called Gethsemani; and he said to his disciples: Sit you here, till I go yonder and pray. 37And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to grow sorrowful and to be sad. 38Then he saith to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death: stay you here, and watch with me. 39And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt

    Luke 5:16 And he retired into the desert, and prayed.

    Mark 1:35 And rising very early, going out, he went into a desert place: and there he prayed.

    JESUS in that particular moment in time, INFORMED HUMANITY AND GAVE THEM A CLEAR POWERFUL MESSAGE, THAT THROUGH PRAYING

     IN JESUS’ NAME,

    THE APPROPRIATE NAME OF THE ONLY TANGIBLE GOD ON EARTH!

     BOTH AS A HUMAN BEING IN FLESH AND BLOOD AND GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE ON SATANIC MORTAL EARTH, THEY WOULD ACHIEVE EVEN GREATER WORK THAN HE HIMSELF ACHIEVED!

    A TASK NEVER WAS POSSIBLE BEFORE, AS JESUS BROUGHT INTO FUTILE THE ENTIRE PHYSICAL PROCESS OF THE WORLD. Well asserted in

    John14: 12 Otherwise believe for THE VERY WORK’S SAKE. Amen, amen I say to you,

    he that believeth in ME,

    Notice as clear as crystal:

    He didn’t say he that believes in GOD or THE FATHER!

    BUT IN ME! OBVIOUS, FIRST, AS SATAN  A SPIRIT AS GOD IS, ON THIS PLANET ACCREDITED THE GODSHIP AND FATHERHOOD OF HUMANITY ONTO HIMSELF, FROM THE FALL OF OUR PARENTS! SECOND BECAUSE 

    OFFICIALLY ON EARTH, THE NEW NAME OF THE TANGIBLE GOD IS JESUS!

    John17:6 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world.

    John17: And I have made known thy name to them, and will make it known;

    Attention please: Obviously by the miracles achieved by the apostles ON pronouncing the name of JESUS! ASSERTED HERE UNDER:

    the works that I do, he also shall do;

    and greater than these shall he do.

    the works that I DO, BOTH AS A HUMAN BEING IN FLESH AND BLOOD AND GOD,

    HE ALSO SHALL DO! WHY?

    AS SATAN, ON JESUS’DEATH ON THE CROSS WAS ERADICATED ONCE AND FOR ALL, FROM THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THIS PHYSICAL EARTH,  AND ELIMINATED SATAN’S DELIBERATE OCCUPATION OF HUMAN SOULS!  A TASK FULFILLED PRECISELY IN THE GARDEN FIRST IN EVE’S HEART AND THEN IN ADAM’S SOUL/MIND! HOW AND WHY? Continue reading:

    13Because I go to the Father:

    Glorified both as MAN and as GOD!

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

     and I am glorified in them.

    ONLY JESUS IS GLORIFIED IN ONE SUBSTANCE

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH IN ONE INSTANT!

    BOTH GOD AND MAN IN ONE INSTANT!

    BOTH INVISBLE AND VISIBLE IN ONE INSTANT!

    That was the cake now to the GRAVY:

    and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name,

     that will I do:

     that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    14If you shall ask me any thing in my name,

    that I will do.

     NOW YOU AND ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN HARMONY WITH YOU,

    DON’T WANT TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH, DESPITE IT IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    Having eyes, see you not? and having ears, hear you not?

    Read again please:

    Matthew 6:9 Thus THEREFORE shall YOU pray:

    OUR Father who art in heaven,

    hallowed be thy name.

    OBVIOUSLY: JESUS!

    Gene, the pronoun “YOU” is directed to His listeners!

    The pronoun “OUR” is also directed to His listeners SINCE HE WAS PERSONIFYING HIS LISTENERS.

    Nevertheless, this doesn’t mean that He Never prayed to GOD and CALLED HIM BOTH HIS FATHER and HIS GOD, THOUGH  AS I MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS POST#943359 STILL WITH A MYSTERY BEHIND IT! Read what I told you:

    the government is upon his shoulder:

    God the Mighty,
    the Father of the world to come,

    I ALSO ASKED YOU:

    LET’S SAY YOU ARE TEACHING  YOUR KIDS HOW TO ASK POLITELY SOMETHING TO THE TEACHER AND YOU SAY:

    Thus, therefore, shall you ASK YOUR TEACHER:
    PLEASE, TEACHER, MAY WE GO TO……..

     Gene, does the WE include you in your teaching?

    Yes or no, please!

    AGAIN  I asked you:

    Did you ever ask a simple question

    WHY IT WAS VITAL FOR JESUS TO TEACH HOW HUMANS IN

    FLESH AND BLOOD FOR

    THE FIRST-EVER TIME
    were to pray to

    THEIR APPROPRIATE

    GOD AND FATHER?

    Now, Gene another question for you:

    BEFORE JESUS’ REDEMPTION,
    WHO WAS THE APPROPRIATE
    GOD AND FATHER OF THE GENTILES, THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD,

    with the exception of the true ISRAELITE?

    More to come

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943406
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said…….”If Jesus was indeed a man able to die who knew of prophecies concerning himself and who was also a prophet himself like unto Moses, raised up from among his brethren, he knew he was going to suffer, be crucified and die. He also knew and had faith in God that his body would not be allowed to see decay, that he would be resurrected unto life, no longer able to die anymore and that he was the man promised to be exalted to God’s right hand. He knew he was the man who would sit on his father David’s throne and rule over his brethren with God’s Spirit living in him and leading him, where he is thus a Son of God. Jesus knew full well that this was all God’s glory for him that had been with God before the world began, that he was the man who would fulfill God’s purpose for having created all things in the first place”.

    EXACTLY RIGHT …….Jodi.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………gene

    #943407
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Don’t you think it’s about time for you to think about all the other scriptures that might be showing you, some of your assumptions about who JESUS IS, MIGHT BE WRONG?
    Desire Truth, has ask you for backup scriptures and scripture explaining your understanding when taking all the other scriptures that deal with who Jesus really is in consideration,  even scriptures in the Old Testament .

    Scriptures like Jodi and I have been showing you over the years.  At least acknowledge them and tell us what they mean to you. To not acknowledge them and deal with them only shows your unwillingness to engage in honest dialogue Proclaimer.

    peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer……gene

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