John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #943408
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    WRONG

    You twist the scriptures

    Jesus did pre-exist, otherwise he would not have said to the incredulous Jews:

    BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS  I AM

    JOHN THE BAPTIST ALSO ACKNOWLEDGED THAT JESUS WAS BEFORE HIM:

    John 1:30

    [30] This is   he  of whom I said, After me cometh  a man  which is preferred before me:  for he was before me.

    ME: 

    Berean, can you address that people indeed witnessed Jesus, in flesh and bones, had ENTERED INTO HIS GLORY upon him rising from the dead?

    You say that a pre-existing god who was in the form of God emptied himself to become a human being, might I assume that you believe that this god then went back to his previous form to which you consider to be his glory?

    If my assumption is correct how then do you explain the fact that Jesus is STILL A HUMAN, a SON OF MAN? How do you explain that it is YHVH’s Spirit upon this man where the world is then judged? How do you explain, Acts 2: 30 “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;”

    Berean, remember, 1 Chronicles 17, where God had promised David a son who God would become a Father to, where God would not take His mercy away from him, God would settle him into His Kingdom forever and Psalms 89, that you seem to just want to sweep under the rug as if it doesn’t exist, God would make him into His firstborn Son and make him higher than all the kings.

    Berean, remember, Acts 17, “24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;..31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    The God who made the world and all things therein, the God who gives life and breath and all things gave the man Jesus life and breath again, He gave him His promised Spirit where he is a Son of God being led by that Spirit. Our Creator ordained this man giving him authority to judge the world, He’s giving him an eternal throne of his father David.

    Do you not see how when you say that, no it was Jesus who was our Creator, that is a direct lie? In Acts 17 there is a Creator who created all things and it is He that brings forth life, Jesus is a man given life by the Creator of all things.  Our Creator raised him from the dead and He ordained him to judge the world and we know that he judges NOT BY his own eyes and ears, but through the righteousness of our Creator’s Spirit that is upon him. You deny the very glory our Creator has given to the man Jesus and you turn him instead into a false image.

    You quote scriptures Berean interpreting them WITHOUT the biblical truth that our God has made VERY CLEAR, God DECLARED THE END FROM THE BEGINNING and the WORD of that END is a man who has God’s Spirit upon him fulfilling all of God’s will, a man who establishes God’s Eternal Kingdom, God’s PURPOSE. Without this man therefore nothing would have been made that was made, such makes him both the root and offspring of David, for without God’s plan which is centered around this man as he is the foundation, David would not have even existed. Without this man that was of God from the beginning to fulfill God’s purpose, that which God had intended even before the earth and man were created, there would have been no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob and no tribe of Judah either. Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’s day and that day is the WORD that God had declared from the beginning, a man fulfilling all of God’s will.

    You gave John 1:30 which is another prime example of you interpreting scripture WITHOUT apply simple biblical truth!

    John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah.

    Berean, what else did the prophet Isaiah speak of to which John would have known and why John would then say, “29 Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred (ginomai, to become, to be made) before (in my sight, in my presence) me: for he was before (protos, first in rank) me?”… “32 John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.”

    Isaiah 11, 42 and 61 all speak of the Spirit coming to abode in the son of David. This occurred in the presence of John, he saw before his very eyes God’s Word being made true in the flesh, he saw a man being begotten of God’s Spirit, he saw the promised Christ being manifested. Through the Spirit Jesus had received without measure Isaiah also said that this was a glory that our Creator would give no other. Through the Spirit aboding in him he was given great authority, even over the Sabbath, John had no such authority. Through the Spirit he sets man at liberty from their sins and because he went to his death offering himself as the Lamb without spot, God raised him from the dead giving him a reward where he is also appointed to divide the reward with others. The anointed Jesus is ranked above John where Jesus has been appointed to give John his reward and where Jesus rules over him through God’s Spirit that is upon him. 

    Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    No doubt that John who quoted Isaiah also knew of Isaiah’s words of chapter 46, which teaches us that from the beginning one man was to be above all fulfilling all of God’s will, God’s very purpose for having created all things in the first place, He did it by reason of and for this man.

    John did not teach that Jesus existed before him, he taught that Jesus is the man of God’s WORD spoken by the prophets, that Jesus is before John and before all as the promised king of kings and lord of lords which God declared from the beginning. 

    Berean, you give scriptures for your proof but you interpret them without applying certain clear biblical truths given from other scriptures. You apply scriptures to your belief instead of having a belief that is based on applying scripture with scripture.

    #943409
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You apply scriptures to your belief instead of having a belief that is based on applying scripture with scripture.

    Me

    WRONG

    YOU ARE GREATLY WRONG about the true origin of Christ.
    As far as I’m concerned I didn’t need a ton of verses to understand that Jesus came from the HEAVEN WHERE HE WAS WITH THE FATHER, SINCE HE SAID SO HIMSELF.
    IT’S EASY AS HELLO TO UNDERSTAND.

    SO PLEASE DON’T WASTE YOUR TIME MAKING A LONG SPEECH ON THIS SUBJECT, IT IS UNNECESSARY. YOU WON’T CONVINCE ME. OTHERS BUT NOT ME.
    SO HERE, WE HAVE IT THERE.

    🙏

    #943410
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Show that you’re honest by answering the question I asked you.
    I’M STILL WAITING.

    THANKS

    #943413
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……It would make no difference what I told from scriptures, just as it makes no difference what Desire Truth,  and Jodi tell you,   you are simply not of the truth, nor is the Church you attend either.
    And please don’t tell me about “honesty” , you and Carmel Are two of the most dishonest people here.  Why don’t you deal with “the scriptures, we quote over and over to you,  why do you ignore them and divert to the scriptures you can force the text to say and mean what you want them to, while ignoring all together the other scriptures that gives the true meanings, even to the texts you try so hard to corrupt .

    Berean , you,  Carmel , an Proclaimer,  are simply unable to put all the scriptures “together” to get the real truth.,  jus that simple.  We, Jodi, and I and Desire Truth, are able to drive truth from the “SUM” OF THE SCRIPTURES,  you people are not able to, and because you don’t truly love the truth,  “God has sent you a deluding spirit, in order for you to believe the “LIE”. 2THS2. 

    Peace and love to you and your Berean……..gene

    #943414
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    You certainly aren’t doing a good job at proving your belief to be true, I can give you that!

    Me previously: Berean, can you address that people indeed witnessed Jesus, in flesh and bones, had ENTERED INTO HIS GLORY upon him rising from the dead?

    So you refuse to explain a verse from Luke 24?

    You don’t have to answer of course but I will continue on to expose the nonsense.

    First thoughts waking up this morning,

    You believe that an only begotten son was in the form of God but he left that glory behind when he was transformed into a human

    Should I apologize Berean for thinking through what you believe and comparing it to scripture? The audacity that I have in asking you to explain passages that I see don’t align at all with your belief and don’t at all align with how you interpret other scriptures. I am just totally out of line I guess!

    If Jesus left his glory behind to become a human, why is he then STILL A HUMAN?

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Berean, God had promised to take an existing son of David and make him into His firstborn and to settle him into His house. Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit where he saw God’s Word had been made true, he saw a son of David having been settled into God’s House Stephen saw the GLORY of God and that of a man sitting at God’s right hand.  The people upon hearing Stephen stopped their ears and ran to him and stoned him to death. You likewise stop your ears.

     

    #943416
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You show me by what you say that you are wrong on this specific point in debate on this thread.

    WHO IS THE WORD?

    IN THE BIGINNING WAS THE WORD,
    AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD,
    AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

    ….

    AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH….

    THIS IS THE SIMPLE TRUTH…

    IN THE BEGINNING THE SON WAS WITH THE FATHER.

    THIS IS THE PURE AND SIMPLE TRUTH.

    #943417
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    You believe that an only begotten son was in the form of God but he left that glory behind when he was transformed into a human. 

    Me

    No, I believe THE ONLY  BEGOTTEN SON….

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    According to John 3:16, how many begotten sons like His Son God has?

    Answer: ONLY ONE

    You

    was in the form of God…

    Me

    Yes I believe THAT

    AND John Say : and “THE WORD” WAS GOD ”

    Am I inventing?

    You

    but he left that glory behind when he was transformed into a human. 

     

    Me

    In Phi.2 it IS WRITTEN :

    thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 

    In my words: He considered it would be “robbery” to remain “equal to God”

    [7] But made himself of no reputation, 

    and 👉took upon him the form of a servant👈, 👉and was made in the likeness of men:👈

    Angels have the ability to appear like men although they are not men BUT THE SON OF GOD WHO WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD AND WHO WAS GOD (in essence, nature) TOOK UPON HIM OUR HUMAN FORM.( will retain for all eternity) WHILE RETAINING HIS DIVINE IDENTITY AND HIS DIVINE NATURE.
    THIS IS THE MYSTERY OF PIETY THE INCARNATION OF THE SON OF GOD

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: 👉God was manifest in the flesh, 👈justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, 👉received up into glory.👈

    And so, he was not transformed into a human, BUT “HE TOOK UPON HIMSELF” THE FORM OF A SERVANT BY BEING MADE “LIKE MEN”
    exactly 👉”and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”👈

    THE FOLLOWING

    And 👉being found in fashion as a man👈,

    he humbled himself,

    and became obedient unto death,

    even the death of the cross.

    Amen!

    To be continued

    if God want

    🙏

     

     

     

     

     

    #943421
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean ……LET’S let Jesus, answer your question with his own words OK? ,…….“the words I am telling you are “NOT”  “MY”, “WORDS”, but the words of him that set me”.

    Common sense should tell you ,If Jesus said those words were not “HIS WORDS”,  but the words of someone else, then how could he be “THE WORD”?

    This might also help you understand, even though Jodi has quoted to you and others many, many times.

    John 3:34…….” For he whom God has sent, speaks the words of God, because God gives NOT the SPIRIT BY MEASURE,  unto him”.

    Whose words? his words,  or God’s words, is he speaking?,  so tell us again how Jesus “himself” is the word of God,  “himself”.

    Jesus speaks God the Fathers words to us , not his own words.
    But it’s plain,  you don’t believe Jesus nor what he says do you? your twisted view of John 1:1 has screw up you thinking.   Repent Berean

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    #943422
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    This is not the question that I asked you first and that I expected an answer from you. But since you come back to who is “THE WORD”, I answer you on it.

    You quote John 3:34

    [34] For him whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    This verse goes more like this:
    Since Jesus speaks “the words of God like no other on earth, THAT IS JUST WHY JOHN CALLS IT” THE WORD OF GOD (Rev.19:13)

    Jesus is called “THE WORD OF GOD” BECAUSE HE SPEAKS THE WORDS OF GOD WITH THE FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT.

    TO BE CONTINUED

    I put you my previous question, copied pasted

    Gene

    You

    Luke 7:2…..”When you pray, say, “OUR” FATHER, which art in heaven, Hollowed be “Thy” name. “THY” KINGDOM come, “THY” will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

     

    Me

    OUR” FATHER, which art 👉 in heaven,

    Now Jesus said (NOT me):

    👉For I came down from heaven👈, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    [39] And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    What is “the HEAVEN” where is the Father where JESUS comes from? PLEASE….

    🙏

    #943423
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    To add to what Gene has said,

    Let’s think about what our Heavenly Father spoke through Jesus in John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth (make alive); the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER, and was manifested unto us.

    These two passages teach us directly that in the beginning was THE WORD of life and THE WORD was with God our Father and THE WORD is the SPIRIT OF GOD, which IS GOD.

    You deny this clear given truth and create a doctrine of total deception.

    Furthermore, God’s word spoken by the prophet Isaiah was that a man would receive God’s Spirit for the purpose that he speak God’s WORD where those who believe in that word are saved and that he would set us free from our sins so that we could obtain Eternal Life. Isaiah 42 tells us that this was glory that our Creator had promised NO OTHER. Isaiah 46 tells us this was God’s plan from the beginning. 

    It is a biblical fact that this WORD became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth, the Spirit came to abode in Jesus, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, and Knowledge making Jesus FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH where the people beheld his glory as he spoke God’s words and did God’s works.  Jesus having God’s Spirit come to dwell in you without measure is exactly being begotten by God and Jesus was the ONLY mortal man to have received this GLORY

    Berean, biblical fact is that in the beginning was THE WORD of life, it was WITH God and it IS God and also in the beginning was THE WORD of God calling one man to fulfill THE WORD of life. The later was MADE TRUE IN THE FLESH in Jesus at the river Jordan and the first was MADE TRUE IN THE FLESH when Jesus was raised from the dead and was promised to not be able to die anymore, which 1 John 1 directly teaches us.

    #943424
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Could you answer some questions?

    When the Spirit came to abode in Jesus where we are told that he left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit, is that NOT God’s word spoken by the prophet Isaiah having been made true in the flesh?

    Did the people behold the glory of Jesus as he spoke the TRUTH through having been filled with the Spirit, filled with Wisdom, Understanding and Knowledge?

    Jesus was the ONLY mortal man to have God’s Spirit come to ABODE IN him WITHOUT MEASURE, correct?…and is this then THE GLORY that God had promised to no other in Isaiah 42?

    Berean, how is it that the people beheld THE GLORY of the only begotten Son when you say that this Son had emptied himself of his glory when he became a human?

    Did God NOT promise to take a son of David and make him into His own Son and settle him into His kingdom?

    Did Jesus NOT say that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom?

     

     

    #943426
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    Let’s think about what our Heavenly Father spoke through Jesus in John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth (make alive); the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifest, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER, and was manifest unto us.

    These two passages teach us directly that in the beginning was THE WORD of life and THE WORD was with God our Father and THE WORD is the SPIRIT OF GOD, which IS GOD.

    You deny this clear given truth and create a doctrine of total deception.

    Me

    …..”that eternal life, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER”

    IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD IN WHOM THERE IS LIFE( John 1:4 👉 In him( Jesus) was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Jesus said: I AM👉 THE WAY, 👉THE TRUTH AND 👉THE LIFE👈

    🙏

    #943427
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Isa 9:6 was quoted during one of our conversations (page 1204, #943359), not entirely sure what the point of the comment is or really the direction they were going; but they did say to “concentrate” on Isa 9:6, so I did. The following is the verse in a few translations:

    6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)

    6 For vnto vs a child is borne, vnto vs a Sonne is giuen, and the gouernment shalbe vpon his shoulder: and his name shalbe called, Wonderfull, Counseller, The mightie God, The euerlasting Father, The Prince of peace. (KJV 1611)

    6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (NAS)

    6 Because for us a child is born, and to us a son is given, whose government is on his own shoulder; and his name is called The Messenger of Great Counsel. For I will bring peace on the rulers and health for him. (Septuagint 1954)

    Compare the Septuagint to the other translations; quite the contrast…

    We are taught this verse is a prophesy concerning the Messiah and some will use it to “prove” Jesus is God (“Mighty God”); however, is this verse ever quoted in its entirety by anyone in the new testament? Not once. So the first century writers didn’t believe this was a prophecy pointing to the Messiah. Yet we are taught to believe the verse is Messianic in nature. Have we actually studied this verse, do we know what the previous five verses are about, what the previous chapters are talking about, or what the next chapters are saying? What events are taking place surrounding Isa 9:6? Most will have no idea, but will still claim this verse is pointing to Jesus.

    I will be focusing on the future tenses of the verb clauses in verse 6, starting with “is born/will be born”; if we believe this is a reference to Jesus, we can safely say this IS in the future tense as he isn’t here in this moment. There is a huge HOWEVER, when going back to the Hebrew, the word “yulad” is used and means “were, was, has been” born, placing the phrase in the past tense. Can anyone explain how/why “yulad”, a past tense verb, is being used as future tense in Isaiah and only here?

    Next phrase “is given/will be given”; the Hebrew word here is “nitan”, and mean “was” given. Again a past tense verb being used in the future tense.

    Next phrase “shall be upon/will rest on”; the Hebrew is “wat-tə-hî” (sorry can only find pronunciation, not fluent in Hebrew and study tools aren’t perfect), when looking at the word in an interlinear the word translates to “was.” Again a past tense!

    The final phrase is “shall be called/is called”; the Hebrew is “wayiqra”, and means “was called”.

    The way this verse should really read is:

    “For unto us a child was born, unto us a son was given: and the government was upon his shoulder: and his name was called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.”

    Why was this passage made to appear to point to a future person in our modern translations, when the Hebrew is referring to a past person? This is an egregious manipulation of scripture; but who would know or catch this when the old testament is treated as a lesser book. So who is being referenced in this passage?

    I think one of the main points that stands out when reading Isa 9:6 are the names given to this son, we are taught this is a reference to Jesus and the one name that stands out above them all is “Mighty God”. Jewish names have a meaning and Hezekiah means “Yah Strengthens.” When looking at his name it is broken into two parts, the first part comes from the word “hazaq” and means “to be or become strong.” The second part is “Yah” an abbreviation of Yahweh(God). When these two parts are combined we have “strong God” or if we use the synonym of “strong” we can get “mighty God.” Fascinating!

    Hezekiah was king of Judah when Isaiah was a prophet and “He (Hezekiah) trusted in the LORD God of Israel; in this regard there was none like him among the kings of Judah either before or after. He was loyal to the LORD and did not abandon him. He obeyed the commandments which the LORD had given to Moses. The LORD was with him; he succeeded in all his endeavors.” (II Kings 18:5-7) to learn more about him and what was happening in Judah read II Kings 18-20; II Chron 29-32; Isa 36-39. After reading the chapters, I will leave you with this question; who is being described in Isa 9:6 – Hezekiah or Jesus?

    #943428
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    gleaned from:

    https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1958/07/the-name-of-jesus

    You can read everything else.
    I didn’t just skim it.

    “The LXX reads “His name is called the Messenger of great counsel.”—The Sep­tuagint Version of the Old Testament With an English Translation (S. Bagster SC Sons, London, 1844). This text was re­garded as Messianic by the ancient rabbis. We read: “His name shall be called from of old, Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives forever, the Anointed One [or Messiahr—J. F. STENNING, Tar-gum of Isaiah, p. 32.”

    🙏

    #943431
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    The Septuagint passage was all you gleaned from what I wrote?!!??!?!?? I did go look at your link and to be honest, I got about half way thru and gave up as it’s from a false doctrinal, trinitarian perspective. I thought you didn’t believe in the trinity; the faith you follow does.

    Either you didn’t read all I wrote or you are ignoring it. The main point of what I wrote was to say Isa 9:6 has been manipulated to make it looking to a future person when it was written to refer to a past person. Did you bother to read the chapters cited in II Kings, II Chron, or Isaiah? You sarcastically said Gene, Jodi, or I should “teach”, but to be taught you have to be teachable and want to learn. You however want to push your religion and if there is anything outside it, it’s false.

    Still waiting for my questions to be answered…

    #943432
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    As I told you, I only skimmed the article.
    The Adventist church I belong to became Trinitarian during the 19th century, but the pioneers were not, and it is with their views that I am most in agreement.

    That said, in relation to your presentation, I do not subscribe to the Septuagint. For me this Bible is not reliable.
    As you know I trust the KING JAMES more.
    If you had read the book: the war of the bibles, you would understand why.
    Although the author is Trinitarian, I find this book very enlightening.

    To be continued

    #943434
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    You

    We are taught this verse is a prophesy concerning the Messiah and some will use it to “prove” Jesus is God (“Mighty God”); however, is this verse ever quoted in its entirety by anyone in the new testament? Not once. So the first century writers didn’t believe this was a prophecy pointing to the Messiah. Yet we are taught to believe the verse is Messianic in nature.

    Me

     

    “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be 👉no end👈, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from this time forth and forevermore”.Is. 9:6-7

    This prophecy is echoed in the angel Gabriel’s announcement to Mary that she will become pregnant and give birth to a child who “will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. 👉And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David👈, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end” (Luke 1:32-33)

    Isaiah 9:6,7 may not be quoted in the NT, but the latter as in Luke 1:32,33 gives us enough readability to make the connection with Isaiah 9 Don’t you think so?

    Hezekiah cannot be the one prophesied in Isaiah 9:6,7 because the text says in verse 7(end)

    <span style=”color: #3366ff;”>Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice 👉from henceforth even for ever.</span>👈

    Did King Hezekiah fulfill the end of verse 7:
    👉from henceforth even for ever.👈?

    ONLY JESUS CHRIST DO IT

    Again

    Of the increase of his government and peace there will be 👉no end👈, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from this time forth and forevermore”.Is. 9:7

    …And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end” (Luke 1:32-33)

    To bé continued

     

     

     

    #943435
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean you said………..>You quote John 3:34

    [34] For him whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    This verse goes more like this:
    Since Jesus speaks “the words of God like no other on earth, THAT IS JUST WHY JOHN CALLS IT” THE WORD OF GOD (Rev.19:13)

    Berean , I am not arguing the point that Jesus spoke “GOD the FATHERS WORDS TO US”

    I HAVE NEVER ARGUED AGAINST THAT, what I am saying is, Jesus speaking GOD the Father’s words to us, does not make him, “himself “, the word of God”. , no more then MOSES or any of the prophets who spoke GOD the Fathers words to us “were themselves the word of God either. 

    Bottom line is your corrupt teaching and belief of JOHN 1:1  , that Jesus himself is the word of God,  “HIMSELF,” and therefore is GOD,  IS A FALSE  TEACHING. 

    I have given you direct quotes right out of Jesus’ own mouth that proves Jesus himself denied the words he spoke to us were “HIS”, by him saying they were,  “NOT HIS WORDS”  he was telling us.
    You either believe him or not.  
    You say, you believe Jesus, but in reality you are denying him by denying what he says. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    #943436
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    In the Bible in Revelation 19:13 WE read:

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:👉 and his name is called The Word of God.👈

     

    Who IS called “THE WORD OF GOD”

    JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD.

     

    you still haven’t answered my other question:
    FATHER IN HEAVEN
    THE CHRIST WHO COMES FROM THE HEAVEN
    WHAT IS THE HEAVEN FOR YOU “GENE”?

    🙏

     

    #943437
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You are still missing what I was talking about; the future tense verb clauses do NOT align with the Hebrew, which are in the past tense. Explain THIS discrepancy!

    We’ll get to verse 7…

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