John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 24,061 through 24,080 (of 26,007 total)
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  • #943348
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    YOU:

    If Jesus Christ was not the literal firstborn of all creation, then this verse is impossible.

    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Do I hear an amen to this verse. So far no one is saying amen to these verses in the New Testament. I guess some of you have issues with some verses in the New Testament.

    ME:

    FYI, the verse sited is Jude 1:25

    How does this verse become impossible in relation to Christ not being the “literal firstborn of all creation”? Explain. The older translations leave out “through Jesus Christ our Lord”; was this part of the original manuscript or was this phrase added at a later date and when? If it was added, we have a problem; what else has been added or even removed that we don’t know about?

    With the phrase there, God is incapable of giving salvation because he must have Christ in order to grant it. Which then means God is small and isn’t the Almighty and Christ would then be greater. Was there no salvation in the old testament? This almost sounds similar to what Berean wrote concerning God’s judgment and redemptive capabilities and not being able to do either without Christ.

    What does it mean to be the “literal firstborn of all creation”? Explain.

    #943349
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    This almost sounds similar to what Berean wrote concerning God’s judgment and redemptive capabilities and not being able to do either without Christ.

    Me

    Scriptures

     

    John 5
    [22] For the Father JUDGETH NO MAN, but hath committed ALL JUDGMENT UNTO THE SON : 
    [23] That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.
    …..
    [27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF MAN.

    Rev.19
    [11] And I saw heaven opened, and hold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth JUDGE and make war. ….
    [13]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called 👉 The Word of God.👈  

    John 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made by him; and 👉without him was not any thing made that was made. 👈

    [14]

    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    🙏

     

    #943350
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You don’t see how that belief and understanding diminishes the Father?!!? The Father, who created the universe and all that is in it, is incapable of judging and redeeming HIS creation. My the God you serve is tiny! I believe the understanding you are missing is the Father/Son, King/Prince relationship. The son/prince can never be over the father/king; HOWEVER, for the father/king to delegate authority to the son/prince is what is plainly written in the new testament and Christ testifies too. To equate the Father as being in need of the son to perform certain tasks (redemption, judgment, or anything else) is a LIE. If your religion is teaching this, RUN!!!

    Then you site the same verses you have been peddling the entire time I have been here for your proof. Have you studied any of those verses?

    The first one proves God delegated judgment to the son…what do you read from it?

    The second verse is to long of an explanation to sum up in a one liner.

    The third, did you do the study on the “son of man” like I suggested everyone should do? NOPE!

    The four, Rev 19 we have been over already and you believe your religion, study it for yourself and find truth!

    The fifth, John 1 the entire purpose of this thread for the last 20 years and it’s still the same “I’m right, your wrong.” STUDY the prologue to the book of John (verses 1-18); not just believe what you have been told, seek the truth.

    In none of what you written have you explained what these verses mean to you and why. All it is, is a repeating of what you have been told to say; what you have been indoctrinated to believe; and the smashing of the “I Believe” button. Step out of your box!

    #943351
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    All I see is you’re rejecting the simple truth , comme Gene et Jodi and you want to teach us…?

     

    #943352
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    What truth have I rejected? Your belief system? Articulate.

    #943353
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Back to your post Page 1202 No.#943293

    You: Carmel……God is our Father , not Jesus,  or why would Jesus even say, (not me),

     “I am going to my father “AND” your Father,  my God “AND”  your God”.

    NO Gene: 

     ONLY YOU CORRUPTLY ARE SAYING THE ABOVE!

    Mr. Spirit of TRUTH, 

    WHERE AND IN WHICH SCRIPTURE WE CAN READ SPECIFICALLY THE ABOVE 

    LIES?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943354
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Jesus said (not me) ….John 20:17…..”Jesus saith unto her,” Touch me not; for  I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my “BRETHREN” , and say unto them,  I ascend unto “MY” Father and “YOUR” Father, and to “MY” God and “YOUR” God. 

    FIRST notice he called his disciples his “brothers”.   Second he say’s,  his Father is their Father, and his God and their God , who is the exact same being.

    That is exactly what is written,  now please show where that is any different then what I have said.
    Carmel the only “LIAR” here, is you. As you do the deceitful work of you father the devil.  “Repent” 

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

     

    #943356
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    In reference to John 20:17 “My Father, your Father; My God, your God.” Did the Jews think of God as their father? After doing a quick, simple search; let’s take a look…

    Isa 63:16 “For you are our Father, though Abraham doesn’t know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us: you, Yahweh, are our Father; our Redeemer from everlasting is your name.” Who’s the “redeemer” and where does he come from…hmmm

    Isa 64:8 “But now, Yahweh, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you our potter; and we all are the work of your hand.”

    Does God call himself a father?

    II Sam 7:14 “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son. And when he happens to transgress, then will I chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of men.”

    I Chron 17:13 “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a son; and My mercy will I not withdraw from him, as I withdrew it from them that were before you.”

    I Chron 22:10 “He shall build a house to My name; and he shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom in Israel forever.”

    I Chron 28:6 “And God said to me, Solomon your son shall build My house and My court; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be to him a Father.”

    Jer 31:9b “for I have become a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn.”

    Does God compare himself as a father?

    Psa 103:13 “As a father pities his children, the Lord pities them that fear Him.”

    Prov 3:12 “for whom the Lord loves, He rebukes, and scourges every son whom He receives.”

    Studying is your friend!

    #943357
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene, and ALL

    Carmel…….Jesus said (not me) ….John 20:17…..”Jesus saith unto her,” Touch me not; for  I am not yet ascended to my Father:

    I ascend to “MY” Father and “YOUR” Father, and to “MY” God and “YOUR” God. 

    That’s what you should have posted Gene! 

    WHY DIDN’T YOU DO THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

    YOU SIMPLY PRODUCED YOUR OWN WORDS TO MISGUIDE THE READERS AND

    PUSH THEM TO ACCEPT A HALF-TRUTH, AND A HALF-TRUTH IS  MORE A LIE AND IRONICALLY IT LOOKS LIKE THE FULL TRUTH!

    Read again what you said back on page 1202.

    I am going to my father “AND” your Father,  my God “AND”  your God”.

    Have a Look at them Gene and PONDER while reading THE SCRIPTURES hereunder,

     (A) PREVIOUS POST: I AM GOING TO MY FATHER..

     (B) CURRENT POST: I ASCEND TO MY FATHER..

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:

    ALL POWER is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

     

    Matthew 19:28 ….And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when

    the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,….

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them. 

    John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man 

    ascend up

    where he was before?

    Notice, in the above,  ASCEND UP is a clear reference to heaven!

    While ASCEND TO it is not a clear reference to heaven! NO?

    John 17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

     

    I AM NOT GOING TO COMMENT ANY FURTHER FOR NOW!

    INSTEAD, I WANT YOU TO TELL ME:

    WHAT IS THE DEFINITION AND  DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?

    TO BE CLEAR BETWEEN:

    I AM GOING TO …..

    AND

    I ASCEND TO ….

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943358
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Funny what happens when people who are shown their thinking is incorrect; they start looking for other things to argue about, all the while ignoring the truth that just slapped them in the face.

    Explain how “going to” or “ascending to” became the primary focus when “My Father, your Father; My God, your God” was the prior focus? (Hopefully we figured out from my previous post what Christ was actually saying; God, the Almighty, is in fact the same for both Christ and us) .

    One needs to channel that kind of energy into studying God’s Word verses defending one’s religion or focusing on  proving themselves right. It is okay to admit a mistake; then again, that idea goes against human nature…

    #943359
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene and All,

    You: FIRST notice he called his disciples his “brothers”.  

    Gene, what you should notice is:

    WHY DID JESUS CALL HIS DISCIPLES, WHO WERE BOTH MALES AND FEMALES, 

    ONLY “MY BRETHREN”!

    ARE YOU IN A POSITION TO FIGURE OUT

    WHAT THE TRUTH IS BEHIND IT?

    MARY MAGDALENE WAS ALSO JESUS’ DISCIPLE! NO?

     

    Second he say’s, his Father is their Father, and his God and their God , who is the exact same being.

    Now just read

    Isaiah 9:6For a CHILD IS BORN to us,

    and a son is given to us,

    and the government is upon his shoulder:

    Ponder on the above Gene, THOUGH I BELIEVE IT’S OF NO USE, NEVERTHELESS, MAYBE ONE OF THOSE WHO IS IN HARMONY WITH YOUR BLINDNESS MIGHT HAVE A GO, and

    they start looking for other things to argue about, all the while ignoring the truth that just slapped them in the face,

    and are shown their thinking is incorrect;

    let’s keep on reading the TRUTH!

    and his name shall be called,

    Wonderful,

    Counsellor,

    God the Mighty,

    the Father of the world to come,

    the Prince of Peace.

    Now throughout Jesus’ teaching,

    MYSTERIOUSLY, AS GOD WAS IN JESUS,  HIS OWN WORD MADE FLESH He used both the title of

    MY FATHER and

    THE FATHER. and also the title of

    MY GOD and

    GOD

    Let’s just only take this scripture in WHICH DEFINITELY SHOWS THAT THERE’S A HIDDEN PERCEPTION IN THIS REGARD!

    John14:1 LET not your heart be troubled. You believe in

    God, believe also in me. 2In

    my Father’s house there are many mansions. If not, I would have told you: because I go to prepare a place for you. 

     6Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to

    the Father, but by me.

    7If you had known me, you would without doubt have known

    my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us

    the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth

    the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us

    the Father? 10Do you not believe, that I am in

    the Father, and

    the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But

    the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11Believe you not that I am in

    the Father, and

    the Father in me? 12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13Because I go to

    the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask

    the Father in my name, that will I do: that

    the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.

    15If you love me, keep my commandments.

    16And I will ask

    the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 

    20In that day you shall know, that I am in

    my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of

    my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    23Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and

    my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but

    the Father’s who sent me.

    25These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you. 26But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom

    the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

    28You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to

    the Father: for

    the Father is greater than I.  31But that the world may know, that I love

    the Father: and as

    the Father hath given me commandment, so do I: Arise, let us go hence.

    Desire truth, said:

    Explain how “going to” or “ascending to” became the primary focus

    when “My Father, your Father; My God, your God” was the prior focus?

    That is perfectly right, IN A WAY THOUGH,

    but precisely the words in relation to those titles of MY GOD and MY FATHER, ACTUALLY THE  MYSTERY IS REVEALED!

    THOSE TITLES ALL BY THEMSELVES MEAN NOTHING OR ONLY

    ONE SIMPLE THING, WHAT ACTUALLY THEY REPRESENT!

    LIKE IN THE CASE ABOVE, THE AMOUNT OF THOSE TITLES ABOVE MEAN NOTHING

    ON THEIR OWN!

    Now if I counted right there are 19 as THE FATHER, and only

    5 as MY FATHER!

    Now  I leave you to it

    WHILE CONCENTRATING ON ISAIAH 9:6 AGAIN HEREUNDER:

     

    the government is upon his shoulder:

    God the Mighty,

    the Father of the world to come,

    Now eliminate all the words and leave out the titles of 

    GOD and FATHER all by themselves!

    What would you GET?

    HALF TRUTH! but we are only interested in

    THE FULL TRUTH

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943377
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….pay attention ok, Jesus said (not me)……….Luke 7:2…..”When you pray, say, “OUR” FATHER,  which art in heaven,  Hollowed be “Thy” name.  “THY” KINGDOM come, ‘THY” will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    Who was the “OUR” representing there?,  was it not “both”  Jesus and us?  Also read verses 3 and 4.  Jesus was applying everything he was saying to himself equally as to us, by using the words. “US”, and “OUR”.    

    COMMON SENSE , should tell you that, but because you are so “INDOCTRINATED ” into false teachings,  it causes you to ignore the oblivious truth written in our scriptures.

    Repent Carmel!

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene

    #943378
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    Luke 7:2…..”When you pray, say, “OUR” FATHER,  which art in heaven,  Hollowed be “Thy” name.  “THY” KINGDOM come, ‘THY” will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 

     

    Me

    OUR” FATHER,  which art 👉 in heaven, 

    Now Jesus said( NOT me) :

    👉For I came down from heaven👈, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    [39] And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    What is “the HEAVEN” where is the Father where JESUS comes from? PLEASE….

     

     

     

     

    #943379
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    How interesting that you would bring up Isa 9; I am currently in the middle of studying this section of Isaiah (7-12,13).

    @ Berean,

    You still haven’t explained what it means to “come down from heaven” nor answered what truths I have rejected.

    #943380
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

     

    You still haven’t explained what it means to “come down from heaven” nor answered what truths I have rejected.

    Me

    👇
    [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    HEAVEN

    👇   👆

    👇     👆

    👇      👆

    OUR  EARTH

    You

    what truths I have rejected.  

    Me

    👉 #943349

     

     

     

    #943381
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Gene,

    You:

    Carmel…….pay attention ok, Jesus said (not me)……….Luke 7:2…..

    ”When you pray, say,

    AGAIN, Gene, YOU ARE A

    GENIOUS!

    WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THIS FORUM?

    YOU  ARE SIMPLY WASTING YOUR TIME!

     

    Me: Now, what does the above introduction tell you Gene?

    It clearly tells you that Jesus is MORE TEACHING HOW TO PRAY THAN HE HIMSELF IS PRAYING!

    JESUS WHENEVER HE PRAYED MOSTLY WENT ALL BY HIMSELF!

    Did you ever ask a simple question WHY IT WAS VITAL FOR JESUS TO TEACH HOW HUMANS IN FLESH AND BLOOD FOR

    THE FIRST-EVER TIME

    were to pray to THEIR APPROPRIATE

    GOD AND FATHER?

    IT WOULD BE QUITE INTERESTING IF YOU WERE TO FIND A SCRIPTURE FROM THE OT. WHERE THE ORDINARY JEWS, SUPPOSED THE PEOPLE OF THE ONLY TRUE GOD,  WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE PROPHETS, EVER CALLED  GOD THEIR FATHER.

    I JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT THE JEWS WERE TERRORIZED BY  GOD NEVER MIND CALL HIM FATHER AND LOVE HIM.

    AFTER ALL, YOU SAID THAT IF ANYTHING  SAID AND IS NOT IN LINE WITH THE OT. IT WOULD BE A LIE.

    GO AHEAD AND FIND THE SCRIPTURE PLEASE, WHICH SHOWS THAT THE JEWS EVER CALLED GOD THEIR FATHER!

    NOW Gene let’s see why it was vital for Jesus to teach

    HUMANS FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME 

    HOW TO PRAY TO

    THEIR  GOD AND FATHER!

    “OUR” FATHER,  which art in heaven,  Hollowed be “Thy” name.  “THY” KINGDOM come, ‘THY” will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    Who was the “OUR” representing there?,  

    was it not “both”  Jesus and us?  

    Me: NO Gene, as I said above

    JESUS WAS MORE TEACHING HOW TO PRAY THAN HE HIMSELF WAS PRAYING!

    TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU:

    LET’S SAY YOU ARE TEACHING A YOU KIDS HOW TO ASK POLITELY SOMETHING TO THE TEACHER AND YOU SAY:

    Thus, therefore, shall you ASK YOUR TEACHER:

     

    PLEASE, TEACHER, MAY WE GO TO……..

     

    Gene, does the WE include you in your teaching?

    Yes or no please

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #943383
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……I would be teaching my children “exactly” what I did .  YOUR words turns Jesus into a hypocrite ,  why would he ever tell us to do what he doesn’t himself do?
    Jesus said (not me)… “I AM THE WAY” THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE,  no man comes unto the Father but  “by”, (GREEK “DIA”, which means the exact way JESUS DID)  me”.  
    Our relationship with GOD THE FATHER,  must become “EXACTLY” the same as JESUS’ IS.  

    Jesus said (not me)……“To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, “EVEN” (the same way) I have “ALSO” overcome, and sit down with my Father in his throne.   We must overcome (EXACTLY) the same way JESUS “ALSO” HAD TO OVERCAME, and that was through, his love, and Faith and obedience to GOD THE FATHER.  The one and “only” true God. Remember what Jesus said (not me) ,  ….”this is eternal life, that they may come to “KNOW” YOU , the “ONLY” true GOD ,  and Jesus Christ how you have sent” .

    Carmel do you know who the “ONLY TRUE GOD” is? It certainly is not Jesus according to Jesus’ own words> But then if you “truly” believed Jesus,  you would know that wouldn’t you?

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene

     

    #943384
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..Check this out and see what you think.

    21th  Century Reformation .   I have found them quite enlightening , like to know what you think.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene

    #943385
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    When I ask you a question, please be kind enough to answer it. THANKS.

    👉#943378

    #943386
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    There’s a pot calling the kettle black! Still waiting for my questions to be answered!

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