John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,961 through 23,980 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #943131
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    As I skimmed through the suggested book, the main take away is the King James is the only proper bible written and other translations are only good when they agree with it. Hate to break it to you, the KJV has its own flaws and in no way is it “perfect”; which is why I have 12 translations I use daily and reference another 60+ online. This way I can see from a larger perspective of what is trying to be conveyed; are these translations in agreement or are certain biases being revealed.

    One major issue I have with the KJV is its heavy bias toward the trinity AND Jesus being the creator. If Jesus is the creator, that means he is God; If Jesus is God, then Paul is a liar and every letter he wrote must be immediately removed from scripture. (I can hear the gasps already!)

    Another point to ponder, why do we have or need so many different translations of scripture; is it to add to the confusion and disappointment within the church?

    me

    Look a little deeper into this book to see how Rome began and continued the Counter-Reformation by corrupting the Protestant Bible.

    🙏

    #943132
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi, and in this case Gene,

    You: 1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

    then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,

    that God may be all in all.

    Me: Now just read the scripture you produced in another post:

    1 Chronicles 17:11-14 teaches us that the son of David was promised to be made into God’s Son and that God would settle him into His House and

    into His Kingdom forever and

    that He would give him an eternal throne.

    Thus in 1 Corinthians 15:28 we read that

    the Son also himself be subject unto God,

    that God may be all in all.

    On the other hand, as you WELL said hereunder, reading 1Chronicles 17:14

    the son of David was promised to be made into God’s Son and that God would settle him into His House and

    into His Kingdom forever and

    that He would give him an eternal throne.

    Jodi, and Gene, and all those who are in harmony with your corrupted teaching,

    DESPITE YOU ARE NOT IN THE POSITION TO ANSWER, NEVERTHELESS

    Here is the question:

     

    HOW IS IT THAT THIS SUPPOSED ETERNAL KINGDOM PROMISED BY THE FATHER TO HIS SON,

    THIS SON OF MAN,

    WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, John 3:13

     

    AT THE VERY END IS GIVEN TO GOD, TO BE

    ALL  IN ALL FOR ETERNITY?

     

    WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS SON OF MAN THEN?

    WHERE WOULD THIS SON OF MAN, while God would be all in all,

    ENDS UP?

     

    HE DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL THRONE NO?

    AS ETERNAL KING! AGAIN, OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL KINGDOM?

    Now this is for you Mr. Genius,

    You said SOMETHING LIKE that,

    IF ANY TEACHING CONTRADICTS THE OT, THAT TEACHING IS

    A LIE!

    In the above case

    WE HAVE

    1 Corinthians 15:28  CLEARLY CONTRADICTS

    1Chronicles 17:11-14

    Jodi it seems quite clear that 

    WHAT FOR YOU AND ALSO FOR ALL CHRISTIANS INCLUDING ME, BUT I DOUBT REGARDING Desiretruth,

    IS A TRUE SCRIPTURE IN 1 Corinthians 15:28, 

    FOR Gene and his carnal-minded reasoning, THOUGH ALSO A CHRISTIAN, according to 1Chronicles 17:11-14

    IS  A LIE!

    You: Proclaimer,

    is this about a body, or

    is this about God being in that body,

    whatever that body might be?

    My: Jodi, your question above is an evidence that 

    your preaching is A LIE!

    Read and PONDER on the scriptures hereunder you will be able to discover yourself the ANSWER. Hold it a bit,

    YOU HAVE TO REVOLUTIONIZE YOUR CARNAL-MINDED MENTALITY THOUGH! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    John14:7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?

     

    1John3:1Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us,

    that we should be called,

    and should be the sons of God.

    Therefore the world knoweth not us,

    because it knew not him.

    the above applies to you, Jodi and Gene, and all those who are in harmony with your corrupted teaching,

     2Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be.

    We know, that, when he shall appear,

    we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as he is.

    3 And every one that hath this hope in him,

    sanctifieth himself, as he also is holy.

     

    John16:25 These things I have spoken to you in proverbs.

    The hour cometh, when I will no more speak to you in proverbs,

    but will show you plainly of the Father.

    26In that day you shall ask in my name; and I say not to you, that I will ask the Father for you:

    27For the Father himself loveth you,

    because you have loved me,

    and have believed that I came out from God.

    28I came forth from the Father,

    and am come into the world:

    again I leave the world,

    and I go to the Father.

     

    1John5 We know that we are of God,

    and the whole world is seated in wickedness.

    20And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943136
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    You did not answer my first question.

    1. Jesus (the Son of God) and his true believers are all made children of God in the same way, by being born of God?

    Let me rephrase the question,

    According to 1 John 3, the Son of God and the children of God are all made God’s children in the SAME WAY, by being BORN OF GOD. 

    YES OR NO?

     

    #943137
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Here are the other 3 questions,

    2. He who is born of God cannot sin and thus he is perfect in righteousness?

    3 (reworded). God putting His Spirit within you causes you to walk in His statutes and keep His judgements, thus you cannot sin?

    4.  Being born of God is God putting His Spirit within you?

    #943138
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Frankly, your screwed up words are not even deserving any answers from anyone here, Seeing you cant even “truly believe”, a single scripture we post directly from the Bible, without trying to change the text to meet you corrupt thinking.
    Carmel you are a minister of Satan sent here to “cloud the truth of the scriptures we post here “.  But the word of God will prevail and your false confused teachings will not .IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #943139
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    “You did not answer my first question.

    1. Jesus (the Son of God) and his true believers are all made children of God in the same way, by being born of God?

    Let me rephrase the question,

    According to 1 John 3, the Son of God and the children of God are all made God’s children in the SAME WAY, by being BORN OF GOD.

    YES OR NO?”

    me

    Yes I answered
    but You don’t undersdand

    Jodi

    Humans can become “SON AND DAUGHTER” of God, but CHRIST FROM HIS BEGINNING TO THE DAYS OF ETERNITY, PASSING THROUGH HIS INCARNATION, ALL HIS STAINLESS LIFE, SACRIFICIAL DEATH AND RESURRECTION HAS RESIDED IN GOD’S LOVE . THIS IS WHY GOD MADE HIM PRINCE AND SAVIOR.
    sins:
    👇
    Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (Acts 5:31)

    #943140
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……Correct,   scripture says 1 John 3:9…..” whosoever is “born” of God does not commit sin; for (because) his (God the father’s) seed  remains in him: and he “CANNOT ” SIN, because he is “born” of God”>

    WE are now being begotten, by God the Father’s Spirit, but a time will come when we will actually be , “born” again of God the Father, and be given new “bodies”  that live forever, and never die. Exactly the same as  Jesus now has.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………….gene

     

    #943141
    Berean
    Participant

     

    @ Jodi

    You

    Here are the other 3 questions,…..

    Me

    Don’t be too greedy in response, one step at a time.

    #943142
    carmel
    Participant

    Jodi and Gene,

    You: 4.  Being born of God is God putting His Spirit within you?

    Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons,

    God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,

    crying: Abba, Father. 

    John1:12 But as many as RECEIVED him,

    he gave them power to be made

    the sons of God,

    to them that believe in his name.

    13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,

    but of God.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943143
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    Amen!

    #943154
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    I can’t really say that I follow you regarding your comment, “don’t be too greedy”. My 4 questions, which are actually true statements coming directly from scripture, perfectly join together to give us understanding to what God’s promise that He would be “all in all” means.

    God’s children are all made the same way, they are born of God, having God’s seed remains in them where by such they cannot sin, they are full of all goodness, righteousness and truth, which we know are the fruits of God’s Spirit. With God’s children, God is “all in all”.

    God’s promise was that He would give us a new heart of flesh and God would put His Spirit in us causing us to walk in all His ways. Being born of God is thus the same thing as God putting His Spirit within us (His seed) where thus God is “all in all”. 

    We can take this a step further,

    Jesus taught that a man must be born of the Spirit of God to enter into God’s kingdom, a kingdom we know will be established on earth and will be full of righteousness, no sin and this makes sense because the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness righteousness and truth. This too equates to God being “all in all”. 

    God’s word gives us a clear understanding as to what the meaning is behind God being “all in all”, it is to be born of God, which specifically means to be born of His Spirit, which specifically means to have His Spirit aboding in you.

    Berean, can we agree on this?

    #943155
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    The point of dispute is not there, it is on the fact that you believe in a Christ who is not NOT THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS….

    “All things were made by him; and 👉without him was not any thing made that was made.”👈

    This is the subject of the thread

    ANY OTHER SAVIOR IS “OUTLAW”

     

    #943156
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    I wanted to add to my last post as we can take this even another step further.

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith…39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    God’s word gives us a clear understanding as to what the meaning is behind God being “all in all”, it is to be born of God, which specifically means to be born of His Spirit, which specifically means to have His Spirit aboding in you.

    ALSO,

    God’s word gives us a clear understanding as to what the meaning is behind becoming “heirs of God”, it is to be an heir of His Spirit, which specifically means to be born of His Spirit, which specifically means to have His Spirit aboding in you to the cause of righteousness, which also means that you are being led by the Spirit of God in all your ways and thus you are a Son of God. The Spirit dwelling in your spirit bears witness that you are a child of God because the fruit of His Spirit living in your spirit causes you to walk in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    There is a good reason why at the moment Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit he was declared to be God’s Son, because that equated him to being born of the Spirit, it equated him to becoming born of God where he would be led by the Spirit of God to walk in ALL of God’s ways and thus be an only begotten Son of God. Moreover such was God setting him apart an anointing (chrio becoming our christos) for him to be sent out into the world and be able to fulfill God’s will.

    This anointed mortal man died, but he was raised promised to never die again and he was raised having received the promised Holy Spirit, he was born of the Spirit becoming an eternal heir and Son of God and why we are told that this was God fulfilling Psalms 2, “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” God also fulfilled His promise unto David, settling this resurrected Jesus into His House and His kingdom forever. As the anointed man Jesus said, one must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom, which is exactly what occurred unto the man Jesus himself.

     

    #943157
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    There is a good reason why at the moment Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit he was declared to be God’s Son, because that equated him to being born of the Spirit, it equated him to becoming born of God where he would be led by the Spirit of God to walk in ALL of God’s ways and thus be an only begotten Son of God. Moreover such was God setting him apart an anointing (chrio becoming our christos) for him to be sent out into the world and be able to fulfill God’s will. 

    Me

    We need to be born of the Spirit and to grow every day by the same Spirit BUT JESUS WAS NOT BORN OF THE SPIRIT AS YOU LEARNED ON THE DAY OF HIS BAPTISM. THE FATHER ACCEPTED HIS OFFERING AT HIS BAPTISM AT THAT TIME, BUT HE DID NOT BECOME SON OF GOD AT THAT TIME.
    HE WAS ALREADY SON OF GOD.

    🙏

     

    #943158
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Hi Berean and All,

    I wanted to add to my last post as we can take this even another step further.

    Jodi, START WITH THIS VERSE THEN HEREUNDER, 

    AND TAKE THIS EVEN STEPS FURTHER AND EXPAND SHOW US THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN

    HEIRS OF GOD AND

    JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST!

    Romans8:17 And if children, then heirs;

    heirs of God,

    and joint-heirs with Christ;

    if so be that we suffer with him,

    that we may be also glorified together.

    A SON IS ALWAYS JOINT HEIRS WITH HIS FATHER Jodi,

    ONLY JESUS IS JOINT HEIR WITH GOD THE FATHER!

    THUS IN OUR CASE WE ARE ONLY

    JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST

    OUR FIRST LOVE!

    OUR GOD AND FATHER OF THE  HUMAN RACE!John17:2,

    John 20:17….. I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    WE WOULD NEVER BE JOINT HEIRS WITH GOD THE FATHER, AS

    THE FATHER IS SPIRIT!

    AND WE AS HUMANS REJECTED GOD THE FATHER IN THE GARDEN, AND RECEIVED SATAN AS OUR FATHER!

    John8:44 You are of your father the devil, ….

    The Father is the husbandman,

    JESUS IS THE VINE AND WE ARE ITS BRANCHES!

    NO JESUS NO GOD FOR US ! READ:

    John15:1I AM the true vine;

    and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit,

    he will take away:

    and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it,

    that it may bring forth more fruit.

    3Now you are clean by reason of THE WORD,

    which I have spoken to you.

    4Abide in me, and I in you.

    As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine,

    so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

    5I am the vine; you the branches:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him,

    the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943160
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……..My “first love” ,  is not Jesus,  but God the Father ,  you have the same problem as the Church of  Ephesus .  Jesus   said (not me) ….. “Rev 2:3-4….and has borne, and hast patience, and for “MY” [JESUS’] NAMESAKE SAKE  have labored , and has not fainted.  Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you have left your “FIRST LOVE”.   That “FIRST LOVE”, for God the Father, was replaced for Jesus , just as you and nearly all Christianity has done today.

    Therefore hear the words of God of Father saying,  “I am against you”, why?,   because you have moved the first love for me and given it to Jesus.  Unless you repent you will and are rejected by “GOD THE FATHER”.   

    repent Carmel and all who have did this,  or you will not be excepted into the kingdom of God.

    peace and love to you all and yours………gene

    #943161
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    So many things to lay out.

    We are promised to be heirs of God, heirs of righteousness, to be made perfect. We are promised to receive the Spirit to the cause that we walk in all of God’s ways. 

    The fruit of the Spirit is in ALL goodness, righteousness and truth and within we see many other fruits including, “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance”.

    1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit…8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Berean, can we agree that God gives His Spirit in measure to people according to His will and good pleasure, where people are born of certain fruits of the Spirit, but OUR HOPE is to have GOD ALL IN US TO THE CAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, whereby such we are MADE PERFECT having the Spirit of God in us to the cause that we walk in ALL His ways?

    By God’s calling we are born of the Spirit of faith, which Paul teaches that such is counted as our righteousness, where then we are counted worthy to receive the promised inheritance. 

    When Jesus said that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom we can see from other passages that we must be born of the Spirit of faith to then receive THE PROMISED INHERITANCE which is to enter into God’s kingdom being born of the Spirit to the cause where we cannot sin, where we are made perfect in righteousness. 

    #943162
    Berean
    Participant

    Therefore hear the words of God of Father saying,  “I am against you”, why?,   because you have moved the first love for me and given it to Jesus.  Unless you repent you will and are rejected by “GOD THE FATHER”.

     

    Me

     

    It’s impossible to love God without loving Christ SO MUCH, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD WHO WAS MADE FLESH FOR US.
    John 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    If you love God the Father, you ALSO love HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

    TO LOSE FIRST LOVE, IS TO LOSE OUR LOVE FOR GOD AND FOR CHRIST AND OUR NEIGHBOR, IS TO FALL INTO Lukewarmness OR FANATICISM…OR COLDNESS AND RIGIDITY.
    WITHOUT LOVE, WE ARE NOTHING.

    I AGAIN, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REALLY LOVE GOD WITHOUT LOVING CHRIST.
    WHEN YOU LOVE ONE YOU LOVE THE OTHER.

    JESUS SAID: HE WHO SEES ME, SEES THE FATHER.

    JESUS IS THE REFLECTION OF THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, THE VERY IMPRESSION OF HIS PERSON.
    👇

    “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”(v.3)

    🙏

     

    #943163
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel……..My “first love” ,  is not Jesus,  but God the Father , 

    John3:28 You yourselves do bear me witness, that I said, I am not Christ, but that I am sent before him.

    29He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom:…..

     

    Gene, WE ARE THE BRIDE!

    JESUS IS THE BRIDEGROOM NOT THE FATHER!

    OUR FIRST LOVE  AS THE BRIDE IS JESUS!

    John3:35 The Father loveth the Son:

    and he hath given all things into his hand.

    John14:6 Jesus saith to him:

    I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    Jesus is between the Father and humanity!

    NO JESUS NO GOD FOR HUMANITY

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943164
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    Post #943163

    This is patently false and makes absolutely zero sense. You are quoting a verse before Christ was baptized, before beginning of his ministry, and equating Christ to “our first love”??!!?

    One question for you, what is the first and greatest commandment? Also, read I John 4:7-21; where does love come from?

     

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