John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,941 through 23,960 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #943106
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    YOU: Proverbs 30:4 IS saying THAT God hath a Son BEFORE THIS ONE IS MADE FLESH.

    ME: It says no such thing it’s speaking of prophecy that aligns perfectly with 1 Chronicles 17 and other passages. 

    Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended“, this is prophecy of the Son of Man who would be exalted to God’s right hand and would also descend from heaven to fulfill God’s will, the will of our God who establishes all the ends of the earth. The son spoken of is also of prophecy in this verse and elsewhere. 

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Berean, tell me which biblical facts below it is that you have a problem with?

    A Son of Man, a man of the seed of David, God promised He would be a Father unto him.

    A Son of Man, a man of the seed of David, God promised to settle him into His house and His kingdom forevermore.

    A man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom.

    The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    The Son of Man had the Spirit of God come to abode in him and was called to righteousness.

    The Son of Man ascended to heaven and sat down at God’s right hand.

    The Son of Man is going to descend in the glory of the Father to fulfill His will.

    The Son of Man will descend with God’s Spirit upon him where he will judge and rule the world in righteousness. 

     

     

     

    #943107
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You

    Beginning in verse 1 we find a man Agur is speaking to two others (Ithiel and Ucal) and claiming to the most ignorant man. Then he proceeds to ask a series of questions in verse 4:

    me

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    and what is his son’s name,

    if thou canst tell?

    The time is présent tense.

    WHEN THIS QUESTION IS ASKED, THE SON OF GOD EXISTS.

    Agur certainly expects a response, but the text does not mention a response from the listeners.
    This does not mean that Agur does not know the name of the Son of God.

    In any case the question is posed, and IT IS POSED IN THE PRESENT TENSE.

    IT’S NOT WHAT HIS NAME WILL BE, BUT WHAT IS HIS NAME?

     

     

    #943108
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Are you really being this stubborn? When you ask someone their name, are you asking in the present or future tense? Agur is asking if either of them know of someone who can do all he is asking and to tell him their name.

    Here’s a little food for thought. Why is Agur also asking for this man’s childrens name. I may be reading into this slightly, but it fits; is it possible the man is dead and Agur wants to speak to the man’s children to verify his accomplishments?  Remember, this is a proverb in a book of wisdom.

    Read this translation:

    4 Who has gone up to heaven, and come down? Who has gathered the winds in His bosom? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has dominion of all the ends of the earth? What is His name? Or what is the name of His children? (AB)

    OR

    4 Who ascended into the heaven, and came down? Who brought together the winds in his bosom? Who bundled up waters in his cloak? Who holds all the extremities of the earth? What name is given to him? or what name to his children that you should know? (ABP)

    OR

    4 Who has ascended to heaven and come down?
    Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of his hand?
    Who has wrapped water in a garment?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is his name and what is the name of his child?
    For surely you know. (LEB)

    Do you still get Jesus out of these verses? Pick up another translation or six and start studying like a Berean!

    #943109
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    That’s one of the problems, you’re using “corrupt” versions of the Bible, and yes, unless you seriously investigate this, you run the risk of getting deeper and deeper into error. I gave you the link of the book “the battle of the Bibles”, I strongly advise you to read it.

    https://temcat.com/005-Bible-versions/Bible-Battle/BibleBattleTOC.htm

    🙏

    #943111
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    BEREAN,   you said……….”That’s one of the problems, you’re using “corrupt” versions of the Bible, and yes, unless you seriously investigate this, you run the risk of getting deeper and deeper into error. I gave you the link of the book “the battle of the Bibles”, I strongly advise you to read it.”

    AND I say , get the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”  , and you will come to realize the truth and the error’s ,  no matter what Bible you use> IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean……..gene

     

     

     

    #943113
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    The Spirit of Truth does not ignore the Word of God.
    The two work together.
    For the Sword of the Spirit (of Truth) is the Word of God.

    🙏

    #943116
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Who made you the authority and what qualifications do you have to determine which scripture translation is correct or not? What is the perfect scripture then? I must know! This way I can put away the twelve I use daily on my computer and can stop using the other 60+ I reference online. Tell me the one I should use so I can put the rest away!

    The honest answer is these translations don’t fit what you believe and are therefore “corrupt”. When will people wake up!

    The link you posted about the “Battle of the Bibles”, did you read the end? It’s kind of an insult to the Seventh Day Adventist church: “Due to the request of the Trinitarian Bible society we are unable to provide information about them here as they do not wish to be associated with Seventh-day Adventists”. Bit of a poke in the eye don’t you think? Why don’t they want to be associated with your faith? This simply confirms what I have said about the church not being unified.

    #943117
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Why are you always trying to make Jesus appear different then we are?  Jesus is the “first of many brethren to be born into the kingdom of God”, not the only one to be

    Wrong!

    If he existed in the form of God, then he is not like us. But if he further emptied himself and came in the flesh and lived as a baby, infant, teenager, man, then he is indeed like us. so your accusation is incorrect. Further, since he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos and we will eventually have a body like his, then we will be like him as he existed in the form of God. Read what Paul teaches us about bodies. First the physical then the spiritual.

    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

    I don’t mind if you do not believe in the New Testament, but at least be honest and admit it.

    #943118
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    Going back through and reading some posts and I appreciate your closer examination of Proverbs 30!

    #943119
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Jesus is both,  firstborn, from the dead and firstborn into the kingdom of God,  how is that hard for you to understand?  Did JESUS not say,  (not me). “You must be born again”?  Even so he had to be born again also.

    He is firstborn from the dead – Good.

    He is first born of all creation is talking about the creation not the Kingdom of God in this verse.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.… 

    The word(s) for Kingdom of God is NOT mentioned in these verses. Another error Gene.

    #943120
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Jodi,

    I believe God the Father has made understanding what HE said so simple and man’s religion has complicated everything. Hold fast, you too Gene, I believe God is removing religious blinders from people in preparation of something coming that will shake this world to its core. We are but a small fleeting speck on this planet and only have a short time to get it right. It’s not a highway to “heaven”…

    #943121
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I guess it’s time for some yes or no answers  so I can understand your thought process. I will present the scriptures that I am specifically drawing my questions out from. Please feel free to elaborate on your yes or no answer or raise issue with the question I presented itself.

    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Yes or No

    1. Jesus (the Son of God) and his true believers are all made children of God in the same way, by being born of God?
    2. He who is born of God cannot sin and thus he is perfect in righteousness?

    Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Ephesians 5:9 The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    3. God putting His Spirit within you causes you to not sin but rather walk in His statutes and keep His judgement?

    4.  Being born of God is God putting His Spirit within you.

    #943122
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Scripture wins IMO. The opinions and doctrines of men are many. They will pass away along with this world.

    Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    #943123
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    What was the gospel, the “good news”, Christ taught? Wasn’t it the coming of the Kingdom of God? Was it not Christ who entered the Kingdom of God?

    I haven’t had the time to fully talk about Col 1:15-18 as it becomes a lengthy discussion to dissect the verses. I will say, there is a period in most translations at the end of verse 17 and a period will end a thought. So to pick up or continue on or repeat a previous thought is not uncommon in scripture. So to say “Firstborn of all creation” or “Firstborn from the dead”, Paul is repeating himself and stating the same thing, only worded slightly differently. Is it false to claim Christ is the firstborn of creation, to be first to be born of creation into a glorious state? Who else has been raised from the dead and is seated at the right hand of God? By being the “firstborn of the dead”, was Christ not raised from the dead into a glorious state? Is this not saying the same thing? What about in 1 Corinthians 15:20 (NASB) “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep”. Are not all these saying the same thing?

    If they are not, please enlighten.

    #943124
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    When reading John 17,

    Image Jesus was a man, for he was a man.

    Now image Jesus believed that he was the man of YHVH’s prophecies and thus knew well Isaiah 11, 46, 53, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalms 2, 8, 89 and many more concerning himself.

    Now remember Jesus’s words,And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.”

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    “I” as in the Son of Man of God’s word before the world was, the word of God that Jesus, the Son of Man knew concerning himself, that had been with God also spoken by the prophets since the world began.

    Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Math 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    Proclaimer, you continue to refuse to apply scripture directly where it needs to be applied to. In John 17:5 we are reading the anointed man Jesus declaring his faith in YHVH’s word, YHVH’s purpose from the beginning, from before the world even began that had concerned himself (A MAN).

    You’ll say that you don’t deny this scripture or that scripture, but if you don’t apply them all becomes vanity.

    #943125
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Please read and appropriately respond.

    YOU to Gene:

    Wrong!

    If he existed in the form of God, then he is not like us. But if he further emptied himself and came in the flesh and lived as a baby, infant, teenager, man, then he is indeed like us. so your accusation is incorrect. Further, since he is back in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos and we will eventually have a body like his, then we will be like him as he existed in the form of God. Read what Paul teaches us about bodies. First the physical then the spiritual.

    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

    I don’t mind if you do not believe in the New Testament, but at least be honest and admit it.

    ME:

    You are making a point based upon other points that aren’t agreed upon.

    “he” who existed in the form of God was the ANOINTED MAN JESUS.

    The man, Jesus of Nazareth, became not like any of us as he was the only mortal human to have been anointed with the Spirit of God without measure, the only man YHVH called to righteousness who thus could then be the only man to fulfill God’s covenant.

    Don’t forget Proclaimer that God had declared the end from the beginning and with God since the beginning was His promise to call one man to fulfill His will, His purpose. Don’t forget by one man’s righteousness and obedience we have received grace and salvation.

    1 Corinthians 15:

    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Proclaimer, is this about a body, or is this about God being in that body, whatever that body might be?

    Those that are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God, once again, is this about a body, or about a body that is being led by the Spirit, whatever that body might be?

    Jesus said that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter God’s kingdom and we are told that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Once again is this about a body or that body being born of the Spirit, whatever that body might be?

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Natural/psuchikes,  having the nature and characteristics of the breath
    the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
    the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

    Spiritual/pneumatikos,  belonging to the Divine Spirit
    of God the Holy Spirit
    one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God

    What happened upon Jesus being raised from the dead? He was flesh and bones and he received the promised Holy Spirit. 

    What did God promise, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Basic biblical facts.

    From the beginning God declared that He would call one man to fulfill all His will.

    A man was resurrected from the dead, received the promised Spirit and entered his glory appearing to many.

    A Son of Man was exalted to God’s right hand.

    A Son of Man is returning in our Father’s glory. 

    A man of the fruit of David’s loins will rule in righteousness with YHVH’s Spirit upon him sitting on his father David’s throne being a Son of God as he is led by the Spirit of God. He is a son of Jesse who will bring forth peace upon the earth being the man who God ordained to judge the world where he will reward many with God’s promise of a new heart of flesh that is filled with God’s Spirit to the cause of righteousness, where thus God will therefore be ALL IN ALL.  

     

    #943126
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Read the book I recommended to you and try to understand what is going on in this conflict between Christ and Satan.

    🙏

    #943128
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    “1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Yes or No

    Jesus (the Son of God) and his true believers are all made children of God in the same way, by being born of God?”

    Me

    I already answered this topic, but….!!!???

    I believe that HE WHO DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, where the Father is (John 6:38)was ALREADY SON OF GOD.(Proverbs 30:4)
    But for our salvation WAS MADE FLESH (John 1:14)
    It is therefore by becoming the Son of man by the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD that he ALSO became the SON of God IN A NEW SENSE…AND BECAUSE OF HIS PURE AND SPOTLESS LIFE, HIS DEATH AND HIS RESURRECTION, HE WAS DECLARED THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER.

    THIS IS WHAT PAUL SAYS IN ROMANS 1:3,4
    [3] Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    [4] And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Paul and the Ethiopian after their baptism preached that Jesus is the SON OF GOD.
    It was after the resurrection of Christ:

    the ethiopian
    Acts.8
    [37] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Paul
    Acts.9
    [20] And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

    🙏

    #943129
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    As I skimmed through the suggested book, the main take away is the King James is the only proper bible written and other translations are only good when they agree with it. Hate to break it to you, the KJV has its own flaws and in no way is it “perfect”; which is why I have 12 translations I use daily and reference another 60+ online. This way I can see from a larger perspective of what is trying to be conveyed; are these translations in agreement or are certain biases being revealed.

    One major issue I have with the KJV is its heavy bias toward the trinity AND Jesus being the creator. If Jesus is the creator, that means he is God; If Jesus is God, then Paul is a liar and every letter he wrote must be immediately removed from scripture. (I can hear the gasps already!)

    Another point to ponder, why do we have or need so many different translations of scripture; is it to add to the confusion and deception within the church?

    #943130
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……Another “perfect post”.

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

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