John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,981 through 24,000 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #943166
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Jesus said (not me)…….“no man CAN COME UNTO ME,  except the Father “DRAW”, him.”   GOD the FATHER, Is my and Jesus’ FIRST LOVE,  Jesus, myself and all other things are our, “second love” .

    remember what Jesus told the person who ask what is the greatest commandment ?,  …..“you shall “LOVE” the Lord you GOD , with “ALL” YOU HEART , with “ALL” YOUR MIGHT, with “ALL” YOUR SOUL.  and the “SECOND”  IS  LIKE IT, you shall LOVE YOU NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF.”

    On these “two”, (first love, and second love ) …….“hinge “ALL” the law and prophets “.

    Jesus LOVE and FAITH in God the Father, was more than for himself,  that’s why Jesus said……“not my WILL,  BUT THY WILL, BE DONE. 

    YOU have shown by your own words, your love for Jesus is greater then your love for GOD THE FATHER, so, you have found your own self guilty of the same thing the Church at Ephesus mentioned in REV 2;1-5,   HAD WRONG WITH THEM , “REPENT”

    Peace and Love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

    #943167
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Jesus said (not me)…….“no man CAN COME UNTO ME,  except the Father “DRAW”, him.”   GOD the FATHER, Is my and Jesus’ FIRST LOVE,  Jesus, myself and all other things are our, “second love” .

    remember what Jesus told the person who ask what is the greatest commandment ?,  …..“you shall “LOVE” the Lord you GOD , with “ALL” YOU HEART , with “ALL” YOUR MIGHT, with “ALL” YOUR SOUL.  and the “SECOND”  IS  LIKE IT, you shall LOVE YOU NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF.”

    On these “two”, (first love, and second love ) …….“hinge “ALL” the law and prophets “.

    Jesus LOVE and FAITH in God the Father, was more than for himself,  that’s why Jesus said……“not my WILL,  BUT THY WILL, BE DONE. 

    YOU have shown by your own words, your love for Jesus is greater then your love for GOD THE FATHER, so, you have found your own self guilty of the same thing the Church at Ephesus mentioned in REV 2;1-5,   HAD WRONG WITH THEM , “REPENT”

    Peace and Love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

    #943168
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    The point of dispute is not there, it is on the fact that you believe in a Christ who is not NOT THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS….

    “All things were made by him; and  without him was not any thing made that was made.”

    This is the subject of the thread

    ANY OTHER SAVIOR IS “OUTLAW”

    ME:

    The point of dispute is certainly there Berean, you are just refusing to acknowledge it. Refusing to apply scripture directly where God intended it to be applied to.

    Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end FROM THE BEGINNING, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I will also bring it to pass; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Ephesians 5:9 The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth HIS VOICE, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures…16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name.

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Biblical Facts Berean,

    He who created heaven and earth did so by Himself, by His powers, His Wisdom, His Discretion and through the UTTERANCE OF HIS OWN VOICE and He did so for THE PURPOSE that it be inhabited with righteousness. 

    Righteousness comes through being born of God, born of His Spirit where the Spirit is living in you to the cause that you are able to walk in all of God’s ways. When you are led by the Spirit living in you, you are a Son of God. God’s promise from the beginning was to rest His Spirit upon humans, making them into His image, His children who cannot sin, where they would inhabit a new earth with eternal life. This was God’s purpose for why He created all things. Jesus is the firstborn overall of this new earth where through the Spirit he received according to a promise when he was raised from the dead he eternally exists in the glorious image of God. When this Son of Man returns we will see him in that glory in the glory of our Father, the glory of God’s Spirit living in him. 

    He who uttered His voice and brought forth creation also in the beginning uttered His voice DECLARING the END where ONE MAN would execute God’s purpose. 

    This one man is set apart/anointed to fulfill God’s purpose through the Spirit that is living in him and God’s purpose for this man was for him to inherit the earth inhabiting it to bring forth righteousness and peace unto all nations of people, making us JOINT HEIRS with him, heirs of God’s Spirit and heirs of God’s kingdom.  

    This would be EXACTLY WHY we are told that all things that were created were done so by reason of him and for him. The son of David fulfills all of God’s will, he fulfills God’s purpose for why He created all things in the first place, so without this ONE MAN WHO WAS DECLARED FROM THE BEGINNING, nothing would have been made that was made. 

    Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    The identity of the Son of God is that of a perfect man and the fulness of Christ is that of a man who received the Spirit of God not by measure, where it remains in him and causes him to walk in all of God’s ways, sinless/perfect, and thus capable to fulfill all of God’s will.

    We believe that he is the promised son of David to whom God said He would become a Father to, that He would settle him into His kingdom forever, that He would make him into His firstborn, higher than all the kings of the earth, a king of kings sitting on his father David’s throne ruling through God’s Spirit that lives in him, a Son being led by the Spirit of God, a firstborn among many brethren.

    #943169
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    No need to keep trying to convince me that Jesus is just a man.
    Don’t waste your time with this, IT’S USELESS.

     

    #943170
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Your statement is the main reason this debate has been raging for the last 20 years; no one wants to verify what they have been told or taught to be truth is actually the truth. Doctrine has superseded God’s words and is why the church isn’t unified, why the church is collapsing, and why sin is running rampant within its walls. Truth is, we no longer fear God, we like the polluted “grace and mercy” teachings of today – the sermons that tickle verses convict.

    #943171
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Refusing to apply scripture directly where God intended it to be applied to.

    Me: Now, Jodi, TO ACHIEVE what you’re suggesting, what kind of wisdom, or knowledge, would you refer to?

    Also, just to keep you in mind of the truth,

    WE ARE DISCUSSING GOD’S GENERAL TASK ON EARTH AS A HUMAN IN JESUS,

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. Rev.13:8

    Thus, read THE SCRIPTURE hereunder and APPLY IT ACCORDING TO WHERE GOD INTENDED IT TO BE APPLIED TO :

    James 1: 5But if any of you want wisdom,

    let him ask of God,

    who giveth to all men abundantly,

    and upbraideth not;

    and it shall be given him.

    6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.

    For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, which is moved and carried about by the wind.

    7 Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord.

    8A double minded man is inconstant in all his ways.

     21Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness,

    with meekness receive the ENGRAFTED WORD,

    which is able to save your souls. 

    A question for you to tackle:

    WHAT IS, AND WHY IT IS CALLED  THE ENGRAFTED WORD according to your WORLDLY WISDOM?

    You definitely not answer the above mere simple question crammed with worldly wisdom and naked of God’s wisdom, WITH EVERY RESPECT!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #943172
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: If Jesus was without sin, then he wouldn’t need to be baptized#943022

    Me: Jodi, read the scripture hereunder, it didn’t confirm

    THAT JESUS WAS BORN OF GOD’S SPIRIT?

    It didn’t also confirm that Jesus BORN OF GOD’S SPIRIT WAS DEFINITELY

    WITHOUT THE LEAST STAIN OF SIN?

    Luke 2: 49And he said to them: How is it that you sought me?

    did you not know, 

    that I must be about my father’s business? 

    50And they understood not the word that he spoke unto them.

    I spell it out for you: 

    In the above Jesus

    A MERE CHILD OF TWELVE ANTICIPATED GOD THE FATHER AT THE RIVER JORDAN and confirmed that

    GOD ALMIGHTY IS HIS FATHER!

    Jodi, AREN’T YOU, AS YOU SAID, REFUSING TO APPLY SCRIPTURE DIRECTLY WHERE GOD INTENDED IT TO BE APPLIED TO?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943175
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You said, “just a man”.

    This truly exposes your mindset of complete denial of profound meaningful scriptures.

    According to you, are we to believe that the idea of Jesus ONLY existing as a human being would then strip him of all his glory??

    Such is NOT AT ALL what God’s word gives us.

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.  I am the LORD: that is my name: and MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER, neither my praise to graven images.

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Jesus is the man where GOD’S WORD WAS MADE TRUE IN THE FLESH, God’s word was made true in the human Jesus. Berean, there is no glory here??

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Berean, there is no glory here, a Son of Man fulfilling God’s WORD executing God’s counsel being a savior?

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Matthew 16:27 FOR THE SON OF MAN shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Through the Spirit of our Creator dwelling in a man this man is ordained to judge the world in righteousness, for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. But there is no glory to be had in this man, none? We are not to recognize the significance of God’s word made true in the man Jesus and all that the word entails?

    Berean, Jesus’s GLORY is not because he pre-existed as another type of being, his glory is what YHVH accomplishes in him as a man who He called to righteousness, as a man who God ordained for the purpose to carry out God’s reason for why He had created all things in the first place. Jesus’s glory is that of a man who has God’s Spirit dwelling in him, which according to scripture does in fact equate him exactly to be a Son of God. Jesus’s glory is that of a man who is a firstborn into God’s kingdom, a firstborn overall of God’s new eternally righteous Creation where man lives in the image of God. Jesus’s glory is that he is the promised son of David who would not just be made into God’s firstborn but made a king higher than all other kings whereby he is our lord.

     

    #943176
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    Wow, you really nailed something in your last post. Thank you!

    When debating on this forum to test and prove all things to then see people just shut down when given certain scriptures shows a great deal of weakness with their doctrine.

    #943177
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    When I say ‘just a man’, there is nothing pejorative about it.
    I REPEAT: THERE IS NOTHING PEJORATIVE.

    #943178
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    In fact Jodi, you are denying the mystery of God and the Father and Christ.

    You say Christ has nothing to do with being God (Theos) as in John 1:1)

    You have great difficulty in conceiving that the equal of GOD (Phil.2:6) was MADE FLESH….(John1:1)

    And yet …. I tell you: it’s THE TRUTH, I’m not lying. God the Father is my witness, as well as Christ Jesus.

    MYSTERIOUS TRUTH I RECOGNIZE!

    BUT IT IS WRAPPED IN GOD’S LOVE!

    Col.2 KJB
    [2] That their hearts may be comforted, being united in love, and to all the riches of the full assurance of understanding, 👉to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, 👉and of the Father, 👉and of Christ; 👈

    🙏

    #943179
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel…….Jesus said (not me)…….“no man CAN COME UNTO ME,  except the Father “DRAW”, him.”

    The above confirms that YOU ARE SIMPLY BLIND!

    JESUS CONFIRMED AND SAID:

    “no man CAN COME UNTO ME,  except the Father “DRAW”, him.”

     

    Me:  Gene, WHY DOES THE FATHER DRAW MEN TO JESUS?

    Read:

    John14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    John15:5 I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

     

    OK, Gene? FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT: 

    WITHOUT JESUS WE CAN DO

    NOTHING!

    No man cometh to the Father, but by JESUS.

    JESUS IS FIRST!

    JESUS IS THE WAY!

    JESUS IS THE TRUTH!

    JESUS IS THE LIFE!

     

    You: GOD the FATHER, Is my and Jesus’ FIRST LOVE,

    Me:

    WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG!

    JESUS  AND YOU ARE NOT EQUAL DO NOT PUT JESUS IN THE SAME BASKET AS YOU ARE! Read again!

    John15:5 I am the vine;

    you the branches:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    JESUS’ FIRST LOVE IS DEFINITELY THE FATHER!

    FIRST AND FOREMOST:

    JESUS DID ALL FOR THE FATHER, AS THE FATHER IS SPIRIT AND ETERNAL AND

    ON THIS MORTAL PHYSICAL PLANET HE IS NOT IN THE POSITION

    TO DO ANYTHING TANGIBLE BY HIMSELF

    EXCEPT IN/BY JESUS

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER! 

    BUT OUR FIRST LOVE IS JESUS!

    You: Jesus, myself and all other things are our, “second love”.

    WRONG, WRONG, AND WRONG!

    YOURSELF and all other things BEFORE JESUS CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER FROM HEAVEN INTO THIS SATANIC WORLD,

    WERE TOTALLY SATANIC AND LOST!

    JESUS IS YOUR THE REDEEMER!

    John3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up: 

    15That whosoever believeth in him, may not perish;

    but may have life everlasting.

    For God so loved the world,

    as to give his only begotten Son;

    that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

     17For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world,

    but that the world may be saved by him. 

    18He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged:

    because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

     19And this is the judgment:

    because the light is come into the world,

    and men loved darkness rather than the light:

    for their works were evil. 

    20For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. 21But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest,

    because they are done in God.

    because they are done in God, THROUGH JESUS;

    confirmed by Jesus:

    John15:5 …he that abideth in me, and I in him,

    the same beareth much fruit:

     

    YOU Gene, AND THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE AS GENTILES ARE EX-SATANIC!

    1Peter 2:Who in time past were not a people:….

     

    You: remember what Jesus told the person who ask what is the greatest commandment ?,

     …..“you shall “LOVE” the Lord you GOD , with “ALL” YOU HEART , with “ALL” YOUR MIGHT, with “ALL” YOUR SOUL.  and the “SECOND”  IS  LIKE IT, you shall LOVE YOU NEIGHBOR AS YOUR SELF.”

    Gene, in the above

    THE FATHER IS NOT MENTIONED!

    ONLY THE LORD GOD IS MENTIONED!

    GOD IS UNKNOWN AND TO KNOW GOD IS TO KNOW JESUS!

    John14:1 LET not your heart be troubled.

    You believe in God,

    believe also in me.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #943181
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You use CHRIST incorrectly.

    The man Jesus is called Christ BECAUSE he was anointed of the Spirit to be sent out into the world to speak God’s words and to do God’s works in God’s name and fulfill God’s will. 

    It is not, our God was in the form of God before he became the anointed Jesus.

    Neither is it, a pre-existing son was in the form of God before he became the anointed Jesus.

    It is the anointed Jesus himself while on earth, the man who had received the Spirit not by measure, was in the form of God. 

    This is another verse besides Phil 2: that we read that the man Jesus on earth is in the form of God and being a servant unto God.

    John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    He is a LIGHT because the Spirit came upon him WITHOUT MEASURE, A CALLING TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, AN ANOINTING, where he would fulfill God’s covenant and be for a light, a GLORY God promised to give to no other MAN. 

    It is not a pre-existing being coming to earth to be for a light, it is the sending of an anointed man out into the world to be for a light, God’s WORD of Isaiah made true in the flesh.

    Berean PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW VERSE 5 FITS WITH YOUR DOCTRINE?

    Phil 2:5 Let this mind BE IN YOU, WHICH WAS ALSO IN Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

     

    #943182
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: It is not, our God was in the form of God before he became the anointed Jesus.

    Me: WITH THE SAME ARGUMENT

    YOUR SOUL IS NOT YOU before you were born!

    DO YOU ACCEPT THAT?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    MORE TO COME:

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #943183
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    Tell me when was the last time I misused the word Christ.
    And how do you see COLOSSIANS 2:2?
    For in this verse, the mystery of Christ is on the same plane as the mystery of God.

    That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of👉 the mystery of God,👉 and of the Father, 👉and of Christ;👈 (Col.2:2)

    For me Jesus is not just a man. HE IS THE 👉DIVINE 👈 SON OF GOD
    WHO HAS CLOTHED OUR HUMANITY IN ORDER TO SAVE US FROM SIN.

    🙏

    #943184
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    What is this “mystery of God” in Col 2:2? Explain its meaning.

    You also state: “For me Jesus is not just a man. HE IS THE 👉DIVINE 👈 SON OF GOD
    WHO HAS CLOTHED OUR HUMANITY IN ORDER TO SAVE US FROM SIN.”

    Can you provide any scripture that states Christ existed in a dual form?

    #943185
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…….The greatest lesson learned here is this……Psa 127:1……”Except the LORD build the house, they labor in vain that build it.”

    peace and love to you all……….gene

    #943186
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Romans 25:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.

    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things through (by reason of) Jesus Christ:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Ephe 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth.

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Ephes 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

    Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    The mystery Berean is that salvation is not only for Israel, the promises of God declared from the beginning are also for the Gentiles. 

    From the beginning was God’s WORD of the calling of one man to righteousness who would fulfill the promises, doing so through God’s Spirit living in him, directing all his ways. We were promised salvation. We were promised to receive God’s Spirit to the cause of walking in all his ways too, being born of God not able to sin. We were promised to be born of the Spirit and enter into God’s kingdom with that Spirit remaining upon us unto eternal life. We were promised to be joint heirs with the anointed man, to be made into the image of the Son that he might be a firstborn among many brethren. People were a witness to the man who was raised from the dead having received the promised Spirit being made a firstborn of the dead and they witnessed this man ascend to heaven where God had promised that this man would be exalted to His right hand. We will see this man coming in the clouds in our Father’s glory where he will make us joint heirs, heirs of God’s Spirit and heirs of God’s kingdom. God will be all in all.

    #943187
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    I do not believe that Paul is referring here to the mystery “concerning the Gentiles” or “of Christ in us the hope of glory”, (I do not deny them of course) but rather to the mystery of the nature, character of God and ALSO FROM CHRIST in WHOM are (says Paul) hidden (v.3) all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Paul specifies well in COLOSSIANS 2:2
    ……, to the acknowledgment of
    👉the mystery of God,
    and of👉 the Father,
    and of 👉Christ;

    in verse 9 Paul makes it very clear that

    “in him(Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead (divinity or deity) bodily.”

    So IN CHRIST THERE IS:

    “all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge”

    BECAUSE

    “In him(Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead (divinity or deity) bodily.”

    CHRIST IS NOT AN ORDINARY MAN.

    IN THE BEGINNING HE WAS GOD (John 1:1) AND HE WAS MADE FLESH (v.14)

    That is the real truth.

    To be continued

    🙏

     

     

    #943189
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You: For me Jesus is not just a man. HE IS THE  DIVINE   SON OF GOD
    WHO HAS CLOTHED OUR HUMANITY IN ORDER TO SAVE US FROM SIN.

    Me: WELL SAID Berean!

    WITH LIGHT FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT, allow me to elaborate even more:

    JESUS WAS BORN BOTH THE SON OF GOD and THE SON OF MAN!

     

    BORN AS THE SON OF GOD OF MARY WITH A LUMINOUS SPIRIT BODY

    JESUS’ SOUL OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND ANTICIPATED HIS MANIFESTATION ON MOUNT TABOR,

    Isaiah 42:1BEHOLD my servant, I will uphold him: my elect,

    my soul delights in him:

    I have given my spirit upon him,

    THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!

    John 12:46 I am come a light into the world;…. 

     

    BORN AS THE SON OF MAN BY THE FATHER’S OWN WORDS:

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    Hebrews 10:5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not:

    but a body thou hast fitted to me:

    Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said: God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, MY SON…

    JESUS  PREFIGURED IN ISAAC!

    Now hereunder is a scripture that JESUS HIMSELF emphatically declares

    THAT HE IS BOTH THE SON OF GOD and THE SON OF MAN 

    John 5:25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh,

    and NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of

    THE SON OF GOD,

    and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is

    THE SON OF MAN. 

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT

    JESUS  CAME INTO THIS WORLD  EMBODIED WITH

    THE ENTIRE CREATION, MALE AND FEMALE, ANDROGYNOUS!

    AS MUCH AS ADAM WAS ON HIS CREATION!

    BOTH GOOD AND EVIL BUT DISTINCT IN HIM.  

    BOTH  WITH ALL THE HEAVENLY BEINGS ALL GODLY  SPIRITUALLY IN HIM,

    THE SON OF GOD, OF MARY!

    AND WITH ALL THE EARTHLY BEINGS ALL SATANIC CARNALLY IN FLESH AND BLOOD IN HIM

    THE SON OF MAN, CLOTHED BY THE FATHER’S WORD!

    AS MUCH AS ADAM, PREFIGURES THE SON OF GOD, AND EVE, PREFIGURES THE SON OF MAN, MALE, AND FEMALE, THE ENTIRE CREATION IN FLESH AND BLOOD WAS ALSO CLOTHED BY THE FATHER!

    Genesis 3:21And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife,

    garments of SKINS, and clothed them.

    NOW, JESUS LEFT THIS WORLD GLORIFIED AND EMBODIED IN ONE SUBSTANCE WITH

    THE NEW CREATION ALL IN HIM!

    BOTH HEAVENLY AND EARTHLY BEINGS

    UNIFIED AND PERFECT IN HIM. 

    JESUS GOD AND FATHER OF THE NEW CREATION. Isaiah 9:6

    GOD, SPIRITUAL and FATHER PHYSICAL OF THE HUMAN RACE!

    John17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said: Father, the hour is come,

    glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. 

    GLORIFY YOUR SON, SPIRITUALLY and YOUR SON GLORIFIES YOU PHYSICALLY!

    GODMAN John13:31,32

    2As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

    that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him. 

     

    John 20:17……. But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father,

    I ASCEND TO THE GLORY OF MY FATHER, SPIRIT, AND YOUR FATHER FLESH

    to my God and your God. 

    TO MY GOD, SPIRIT, AND YOUR GOD, FLESH!

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    I AM GLORIFIED IN THEM, BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH!

    THE DUALITY OF JESUS, MALE AND FEMALE AS

    ONE SUBSTANCE!

    GODMAN!

    Colossians 1:19  Because IN HIM,

    it hath well pleased the Father,

    that ALL FULLNESS should dwell;

    20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross,

    both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

     GODMAN!

    FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST,

    WHEN GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL

    EMBODIED IN

    JESUS CHRIST.

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN/SON OF GOD AS A HUMAN PREEXISTED IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER AS THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD!

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    Isaiah 46:10Who show from the beginning the things that shall be at last,

    and from ancient times the things that as yet are not done, saying:

    My counsel shall stand, and all my will shall be done:

     

    John17:5: And now glorify thou me,

    O Father, with thyself,

    with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

     

    Colossians 2:2 That their hearts may be comforted,

    being instructed in charity, and unto all riches of fulness of understanding,

    unto the knowledge of the mystery of God the Father and of Christ Jesus:

    3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

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