John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,821 through 23,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942842
    Berean
    Participant

     


    @desiretruth

    You

    The flaw with your assertion is Christ ministry wasn’t to “stomp” people like one does in a wine press (put it all into context). God is judging Edom in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Malachi; and in the book of Revelation, God is judging mankind. 

     

    Me

    You Say :

    and in the book of Revelation, God is judging mankind.

    It’s not true. God entrusted “judgment” to Christ.

    👇

    John 5
    For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
    [21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    [22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed 👉all judgment unto the Son:👈
    [23] That all men should honor the Son👈, even as they👉 honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.

    🙏

    #942852
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene, and ALL,

    You: THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE. 

    Your stubbornness is TERRIBLE!

    Isaiah 55:8

    8For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    DID YOU GET THAT Gene?

    You said: We all know God the Father is a Spirit,

    according to Jesus right,  

    THANKS, Gene, that you INDIRECTLY finally realized that ONLY JESUS IS OUR FIRST LOVE, IN ORDER, TO  ESTABLISH OURSELVES SPIRITUALLY-MINDED/ALIVE, IN RELATION TO THE FATHER, OK? Well clear in

    John15:1 I AM the TRUE vine;

    Gene, the Father is ONLY THE HUSBANDMAN, THE BRANCHES ARE PART OF THE VINE:

    JESUS, and  SEPARATED TOTALLY FROM THE FATHER! READ:

    and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch IN ME, that beareth not fruit,

    HE WILL TAKE IT AWAY: Luke 3:9

    Gene, reflect please on Jesus’ own words above: JESUS MADE IT WELL CLEAR THAT

    THE BRANCH IS PART OF THE VINE, TO MAKE IT CLEAR HE REFERRED TO THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HIM AND HUMANITY, ATTENTION PLEASE: IT MUST BE

    PHYSICAL!

    You: So how can he be in Jesus and Jesus “in” him?  ,

    it works this way, as Jesus Grow in the words of God, who was telling him what to say and do, he was retaining the words of God “IN” HIM, and as he was retaining those words,  the person or being,  who said those words was existing “in” him, by those word remaining “IN” HIM.

    NO Gene, that is your carnal-minded reasoning with every respect!

    Jesus was well clear that the relationship between Him, the VINE, and humanity, THE BRANCHES MUST BE PHYSICAL! Attention please again:

    Which Jesus achieved on His resurrection embodied with the entire human race all IN HIM,

    ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS/SISTERS IN HIS GLORIFIED BODY,

    THE NEW ADAM, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT,  attention please AGAIN,

    BORN ANEW FROM THE DEAD/SPIRITUALLY DEAD, IN HELL AND ON EARTH!

     

    More to come

    Peace and love  in Jesus Christ

    #942855
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ……by separation Jesus from the rest of humanity, you are creating another inanity different from us.  SO WITH YOU , it is,  God the father,  Jesus the you don’t know what, an angel, or unknown inanity of some kind? ,  please inform us who and what class of being is Jesus,  seeng you say he is not GOD, and he preexisted his birth on this earth,   please identify who or what he is to you.

    My bible says he was made a little lower then the angels, just like we were, for the tasting of death just like we do,   my bible shows he is clearly a human being,  even born exactly as we are   I have neve seen a single scripture that say he was “Morphed” from one state of existence to another,  no scripture says that.  

    You say Jesus created everything, my bible Says,  God the Father created this world and ev1erything in it.  By himself and alone,  you believe Jesus is God’s word,  but Jesus said (not me)  the words I am telling you are “Not” MY, words.  

    You blame others of formulating doctrine from their own selves,  and you do the same thing , by not admitting the truth when it is presented to you.

    As I told you years ago, you are half way in and half way out,   Luke warm , dosen’t cut it Proclaimer,  Rev 3:15

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #942856
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……Jesus is not our first love,  God the Father is.  I explained that to you all ,  Go read what the Spirit said to the Church of Ephesus,  then remember who Jesus said should be our first love, when the man ask him what was the greatest commandment,  it goes like this,   “you shall “LOVE”, THE LORD YOUR GOD , WITH “ALL” YOU MIGHT, ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOLE,  

    THAT is what the Church forgot to do, by applying everything they did to Jesus, they left their “First love” , Which should have been GOD THE FATHER, and c applied it to Jesus.  Is that not what you people do?

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel………gene

    #942857
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    Continue:

    You: THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE. 

    ME: Let’s read again

    John 15:1 I AM the TRUE vine; and my Father is the husbandman.

     2 Every branch IN ME,

    that beareth not fruit,

    HE WILL TAKE IT AWAY: 

    and everyone that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 

    Physically speaking, Jesus as THE TRUE VINE said 

    Every branch IN ME,

    Gene, Jesus could not be more specifically clear than He was, BY USING THE VINE and THE BRANCHES,  in order to make us aware that our relationship IS DIRECTLY ATTACHED IN HIM, and HE IN US.

    WE CANNOT BE  DIRECTLY IN THE FATHER and THE FATHER IN US, 

    AS HE IS SPIRIT.

    CLEAR?

    ONLY JESUS IS DIRECTLY IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IN JESUS AS ONLY JESUS IS GLORIFIED 

    BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH 

    GODMAN! Well clear in

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over ALL FLESH, that he may give eternal life to

    all whom thou hast GIVEN HIM.

    TH FATHER Gene, GAVE ALL POWER OVER ALL FLESH/HUMANITY, IN ORDER FOR THE FATHER TO BE IN HUMANITY, BUT ONLY THROUGH JESUS, again well clear in

    John 17:21 That they all may be one,

    as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;

    that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them;

    that they may be one, as we also are one: 

    JESUS IN THE ABOVE WAS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL AND HE SPOKE ABOUT THE DIRECT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHER AND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. now  carry on reading please:

    23I in them,

    and thou in me;

    that they may be made perfect in one:

    Don’t remain stubborn as you are Gene,

    OUR FIRST LOVE/RELATIONSHIP IS WITH JESUS, NOT WITH THE FATHER, HUMANITY Gene, REJECTED THE FATHER/SPIRIT IN THE GARDEN, AND THE FATHER SACRIFICED HIS SON FOR OUR SAKE!

    HE IS THE ONLY MEDIATOR/SPIRIT. Attention and read please:

    and the world may know that thou hast sent me,

    and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. 

    Let’s carry on reading

    John 15:3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you.

    by reason of the word, which means BY REASON OF THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WHO ETERNALLY IS IN JESUS. 

    A SPIRIT WITHIN A SPIRIT!

    DESPITE THE FACT THAT JESUS IS ALSO A HUMAN! THE SON OF MAN!

    BUT ON  HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS JESUS UNIFIED INTO ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH THE SON OF GOD, THE HOLY GHOST and THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” made flesh.

    You: Remember  Jesus said (not me),  “the words I am telling you are “Spirit”.  Yes they were God the Father’s word and he is Spirit, So “HIS” words are also Spirit” 

    Thank you, Gene, BUT YOU HAVE TO PRACTICE WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING!

    Read again what I said above please:

    John 15:3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you.

    by reason of the word, which means BY REASON OF THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WHO ETERNALLY IS IN JESUS. 

    A SPIRIT WITHIN A SPIRIT!

    You: when we become one with God the Father and Jesus their words remain in us, that is what makes us , “ONE” WITH THEM.”  ,

    NOW YOU ARE CONFUSED I’M AFRAID!

    JESUS SAID (NOT ME)

    John17:23I in them,

    and thou in me;

    that they may be made perfect in one:

    JESUS CHRIST OUR FIRST LOVE!

    WE  BECOME DIRECTLY ONE WITH JESUS, ONLY

    JESUS IS DIRECTLY ONE WITH THE FATHER.

    they exist “in” us by their word and we exist in them by our words also.  

    NO, NO, and NO!

    THE ABOVE IS YOUR CARNAL-MINDED REASONING! WITH EVERY RESPECT

    Keep on reading!

    John15:4Abide in me, and I in you.

    ARE YOU STILL BLIND 

    You: They are simply the blind leading the blind, stumbling over themselves constantly, never coming to understand the real truth. SAD!

    YOUR OWN WORDS CONDEMNES YOU Gene, in the above!

    Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    John15:4….As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, HERE IT COMES Gene::

    so neither can you, unless you abide IN ME.

    JESUS ON HIS RESURRECTION UNITED PHYSICALLY THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

    ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS/SISTERS IN HIM!

    THEN TO BECOME THE SECOND  ADAM! THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, JESUS’ RESURRECTED BODY, TH ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN THE SON OF MAN, “THE WORD” made flesh, INTEGRATED WITH THE HOLY GHOST IN THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST,

    GODMAN!

    GOD OF ALL FLESH! Jeremiah 32;27 

    GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE!

    you shall “LOVE”, THE LORD YOUR GOD , WITH “ALL” YOU MIGHT, ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOLE,  

     

    John 15:5 I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    WHERE IS THE FATHER IN THE ABOVE?

    ATTENTION Gene please:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    Jesus is our FIRST love!

    JESUS IS THE BRIDEGROOM and

    WE ARE THE BRIDE!

    OUR FIRST LOVE IS

    JESUS!

     

    More to come!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942860
    Berean
    Participant

     

    #942877
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene, and ALL,

    Continue,

    You: THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE.

    when we become one with God the Father and Jesus their words remain in us, that is what makes us , “ONE” WITH THEM.”  ,they exist “in” us by their word and we exist in them by our words also.

    Me: Let’s carry on reading

    John15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.

    Notice Gene, Jesus in the above, specifically confirmed that:

    (1) We must ABIDE IN HIM, NOT OUR WORDS ABIDE IN HIM, as you suggested, and

    (2) HIS WORDS ABIDE IN US, in the plural, which is a clear reference to His Gospel, His teachings, though you hardly believe so. Now to the most vital:

    (3) you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.

    Now, in order to understand what in actual fact Jesus is talking about, the question that we must ask is:

    HOW DO WE AS HUMANS IN FLESH AND BLOOD ON EARTH COULD ABIDE IN JESUS?

    Read again what I already made it clear in the previous post:

    John15:4….As the BRANCH cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the VINE,

    HERE IT COMES Gene::

    so neither can you, unless you abide IN ME.

    Jesus, as THE SON OF MAN, in the above, spoke from the perspective of the physical aspect of His process regarding our HUMAN relationship with Him.

    NOT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE SPIRITUAL ASPECT OF HIS FATHER!

    The fact that Jesus called His Father the husbandman!

    INDIRECTLY INVOLVED OUTSIDE OF JESUS’ HUMAN PROCESS. THE FACT THAT JESUS IS

    THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE, plus that

    No man comes to the Father, but by JESUS.

    Thus, God the Father sent His Son ,

    PURPOSELY “THE WORD” MADE FLESH,

    A SPIRIT PURPOSELY  MADE FLESH  THE SON OF MAN, THE SON OF THE FATHER, WHO IS SPIRIT IN ORDER TO INTEGRATE THE SUBSTANCE OF THE HUMAN FLESH AND THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER  INTO ONE SUBSTANCE BY WHICH TASK HUMANITY WOULD BECOME GENUINELY

    CHILDREN OF GOD IN ONE SAME BLOOD AND OF ONE SAME FATHER

    ALL IN HIS SON

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE. Well asserted by Jesus to Mary Magdalene in

    John20:17 Jesus saith to her: ……I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God

    GOT IT? No you don’t, your mentality is only carnally FOCUSED,  and flesh counts for nothing when it comes to God’s general work, it is His spirit which gives life to all of His work, EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO THE FLESH;

    as God is SPIRIT!

    AS YOU WELL SAID, BUT NEVER PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, with every respect.

    Jesus in the above scripture confirmed that HE ASCENDED TO

    THE UNIQUE GLORY BOTH OF

    OUR FATHER ASA HUMAN AND HIS FATHER AS SPIRIT and

    OUR GOD AS A HUMAN AND HIS GOD AS SPIRIT

    Jesus in this unique glory all in Himself IN ONE INSTANT AS HE FEELS FIT possesses

    ONE DIVINE/HUMAN BODY.TO BE CLEAR

    THE ENTIRE NEW SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL CREATION IS IN ONE GLORY EMBODIED IN JESUS PURPOSELY:

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN

    Colossians 1:19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell;

    Now we come to what Jesus meant when he said:

    John15:7 If you abide in me,

    and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.

    Once we TRULY believe in Jesus, and practice what we believe:

    WE HUMANS IN FLESH AND BLOOD WOULD ABIDE IN JESUS’ GLORIFIED EMBODIMENT OF THE NEW CREATION.

    GODMAN!

    WE WOULD BE GODS ON EARTH!

    Thy kingdom come.

    Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    NOW READ AGAIN JESUS’ OWN WORDS PLEASE:

    John15:7 If you abide in me, ( PURE FAITH)

    and my words abide in you, (PRACTICE PURE FAITH)

    you shall ask whatever you will,

    and it shall be done unto you.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942923
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ……by separation Jesus from the rest of humanity, you are creating another inanity different from us.

    Still making this false claim? When are you going to learn? If I believe that he existed in the form of God (divine nature) then emptying himself, and coming in the flesh then living as a baby like us and growing and learning like us into an adult, then how is it exactly that I separate him from humanity. I don’t. So please move on to other points that may be outstanding. Your attention to this would be appreciated. It will save going over the same old stuff time and time again. Please gene. You haven’t learned a thing for over a decade. At least admit that your assertion about me supposedly denying that Jesus is a man is a false assertion.

    #942927
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    This entire conversation is a circle, it’s the same argument for the last 20 years. One side pitted against the other and both sides having the mindset of “I’m right and your wrong.” Always repeating the same thing. Either Christ preexisted or he didn’t; one belief is wrong and the other correct, both can’t be right.

    The real “nuts and bolts” of this entire conversation comes down to whether or not we understand scripture from a Jewish or a Nicean perspective? I will confidentially say most have rejected the Jewish in favor of the Nicean. Don’t believe me, look at any churches belief statement and you will find it mimics the Nicean Creed. Which may be why there are over 30,000 different denominations worldwide today.

    I will challenge you or anyone to scripturally prove Christ preexistence in the old testament. Why do you believe what you believe? Take a stand.

    #942931
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    I will challenge you or anyone to scripturally prove Christ preexistence in the old testament. Why do you believe what you believe? Take a stand.

     

    No one has ever proven
    that Christ did not pre-exist.
    The proofs that he pre-existed exist, but they are denied purely and simply. And that is the work of the Enemy of Souls.

    🙏

    #942932
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    “The real “nuts and bolts” of this entire conversation comes down to whether or not we understand scripture from a Jewish or a Nicean perspective.”

    Which perspective are you using to understand scripture? The Adventists “belief” page mimics the Nicean Creed, case and point. Then to use a blanket statement of those who don’t believe the same as you are of the enemy – my head shakes. The real work of the enemy happened in 325AD when Christ was made equal to the Father.

    Since you believe Christ preexisted you should have no problem supporting this in the old testament…begin.

    #942933
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Equal to the Father is wrong for sure.

    However, being just a man who was created and started his existence some 2000 years ago is also wrong.

    Like many things, the truth is in neither extreme. A bit like politics. Extreme right and extreme left are dangerous.

    What we know from scripture is this.

    He existed in the form of God (not as God himself), emptied himself, came in the flesh, was born and grew like any one of us (lived as a man – had to learn as a man). Died. Rose again. Is now with the Father in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    In other words, he came down from Heaven as the bread of heaven. He became one of us and lived as us and suffered as one of us. He returned and he will take many with him so they can become what he is now. Glorified with a body like his. This is what we read in the New Testament which is a greater revelation. This is why we in the kingdom of God are greater than John the Baptist despite him being the greatest amongst us. Because he was of the old covenant and we stand on the shoulders of the new covenant.

    Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    So you won’t find much in the Old Testament because the season was not right, apart from perhaps Melchizedek or the Messenger of the LORD who was referred to as God, but makes sense if it was Jesus Christ as he is the image of the INVISIBLE God, the full expression of his being. But this is speculation despite how well it might fit especially also given that that messenger is never mentioned in the time of Christ. But the mysteries are being revealed as time moves forward. And one day it will all be known. But what is revealed to us now is that God sent the one whom he made the cosmos for and through. The plan was from before the foundation of the world. And our world was the right time to evoke the plan.

    #942934
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    This entire conversation is a circle, it’s the same argument for the last 20 years. One side pitted against the other and both sides having the mindset of “I’m right and your wrong.” Always repeating the same thing. Either Christ preexisted or he didn’t; one belief is wrong and the other correct, both can’t be right.

    Exactly. Except I am challenged when I repeat scripture as it is written and these scriptures are my beliefs. I simply repeat them and get challenged. Take of that as you will. I can honestly say that those that challenge these NT scriptures are always adding in words and ignoring the clear readings of the text. For example, I believe this as it is written and they challenge it which is fine. But then that means they do not believe because they reject the New Testament as it is a revelation of the messiah and who he is. They preach a different Christ to that which is recorded in the New Testament.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Colossians 1:15-18
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    It’s really very clear. You either believe or you don’t and like I said, if you don’t, then fine. It is your life and do with it as you will. Although Gene doesn’t even believe in free will, so he thinks he has no free choice in the matter, which when you think about it, he is saying that even if he is wrong, he will still choose that way.

    #942935
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I will challenge you or anyone to scripturally prove Christ preexistence in the old testament. Why do you believe what you believe? Take a stand.

    Why not make the same challenge for the New Testament?

    #942936
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    For me there is only a right and wrong, no maybe; it’s black and white, no gray; pick a side of the fence, can’t exist on both sides at the same time nor straddle it; and there is no middle of the road. So the truth will never be in the middle. If you want to call it “extreme”, so be it; I call it a truth or a lie.

    Neither example you gave are comparable, Christ is or isn’t equal to God and either Christ preexisted or he was born 2000 years ago as a man foreknown by GOD to do HIS will before the creation of the world. There cannot be a “middle” understanding with either one. Christ said something about being hot or cold and not lukewarm.

    I can go into great length explaining why I believe what I believe and to a small degree I have explained some of what I believe and using scripture to support the why. Yet you and others have simply rejected what I have said, so for you to lament over someone challenging what you believe – I’m there. I’ve only been here for a couple months, you have been here for 20 years. For the last year I have received nothing but criticism, told I am wrong, I’m going to Hell, I’m not saved, I am going to die in this belief both physically and spiritually, and the questions I ask are of Satan.

    This goes back to what I said earlier, do we understand scripture with a Jewish or a Nicean mindset? Most have chosen the Nicean and have rejected the Jewish. Do we understand Jewish idioms?

    We both know no one will find anything in the old testament concerning the “preexistence” of Christ, it doesn’t exist; which is why you want to use the new testament to prove Christ’s “preexistence.” I can cite you most of the verses used to support it too; today I don’t hold that same view. I still can’t get over how people reject the Jewish understanding in favor of a Roman-Greco understanding when the entirety of scripture was written by Jews.

    #942937
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

     

    Come on, let’s restart from zero

    The first chapter of the first book of the Bible mentions the presence of the Son of God with the Father.

    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness….

    LET US MAKE MAN….

    You think that God speaks to the angels, I do not believe it because the angels collaborated in nothing with the creation of the man, but the Son yes. This will be confirmed later by John and Paul.

    Just John:

    ….without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Hey!  John WAS a jew with the SPIRIT OF truth !

    🙏

    #942940
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Let’s go back to Genesis 1:26, the “us” and “our” in the creation of man. Your belief tells you it’s Jesus, the Jews understood it was the heavenly hosts to whom God was speaking. Who’s correct, you or the Jews? You reject the idea the God of the universe would dare speak to his heavenly creation and assert by speaking to them HE was seeking their advice on how to create man. Nowhere in these verses does it claim this, that’s you. This is twisted and polluted thinking!

    Even modern theologian Gordon J. Wenham, writes in his Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, “From Philo onward, Jewish commentators have generally held that the plural [in Genesis 1:26, ‘Let us make man….’] is used because God is addressing his heavenly court, i.e., the angels (cf. Isa. 6:8).” He then goes on to say the belief the “us” and “our” being referenced to Jesus is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.” (1987 p27) (Wenham’s words sourced from the writings of others, I do NOT have this commentary)

    Now what? Do we continue to reject this thought or actually look into it ourselves?

    I believed as you do until I started asking what did the Jews really mean in their writings, what were they trying to convey; and this is when everything changed. Be your user name and start verifying what your pastor teaches and the doctrine within your church; see where it takes you. It caused me to leave the corporate church because what they were teaching didn’t align with what scripture really said.

    #942941
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Neither example you gave are comparable, Christ is or isn’t equal to God and either Christ preexisted or he was born 2000 years ago as a man foreknown by GOD to do HIS will before the creation of the world. There cannot be a “middle” understanding with either one. Christ said something about being hot or cold and not lukewarm.

    Scripture teaches using multiple views that Jesus Christ was the first to be with God and that he has first place in all things. Even logic and common sense tells you that someone had to be the first to be with God. And scripture teaches us about the special conditions of firstborns. They inherit the estate. When you realise that Jesus is the Word of God and firstborn, you see why he inherits the kingdom of God. All things made for him and through him.

    Of course, a literal firstborn can lose that title and lose that title to another. So if Jesus is 2000 or so years old, who did he take firstborn status from? Don’t tell me Adam because Adam was not the first to be with God and we are taught that Jesus is the final Adam too. Further, angels were present at the creation of the earth:

    “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?”

    Rather, Jesus Christ has jurisdiction over all sons of God including these angels and morning stars. Even demons are subject to him and knew he was the son of God. They believed in who he was, yet some Christians do not believe it seems.

    #942943
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    In one post you said, “If I believe that he existed in the form of God (divine nature) then emptying himself, and coming in the flesh then living as a baby like us and growing and learning like us into an adult, then how is it exactly that I separate him from humanity. I don’t. So please move on to other points that may be outstanding.”

    In another post you said, “However, being just a man who was created and started his existence some 2000 years ago is also wrong.”

    These two don’t align and it is what Gene and I have had a problem with for so many years now.

    The second you say that Jesus was MORE than a human being is the second that you separate him from humanity. I don’t honestly see how it is that you don’t get that. 

    The human Jesus receiving the Spirit of God WITHOUT MEASURE to do all of God’s will, perform His works and speak His words is exactly Jesus existing in the form of God. I also don’t see how it is that you don’t get that.

    #942944
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In one post you said, “If I believe that he existed in the form of God (divine nature) then emptying himself, and coming in the flesh then living as a baby like us and growing and learning like us into an adult, then how is it exactly that I separate him from humanity. I don’t. So please move on to other points that may be outstanding.”

    In another post you said, “However, being just a man who was created and started his existence some 2000 years ago is also wrong.”

    These two don’t align and it is what Gene and I have had a problem with for so many years now.

    Yes it seems you do have a problem with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

    You have a problem with the Word becoming flesh.

    You have a problem with God created all things through The Word that was WITH God.

    You have a problem with God creating the all things through Jesus Christ.

    You have a problem with his name being ‘The Word of God’.

    Yes indeed you have a problem. I agree.

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