John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,801 through 23,820 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942804
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……..Jesus said,  (not me),…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY words, but the words of him who sent me”.  

    So the idea of saying Jesus is the  word of God, is a lie, by Jesus’ own mouth.  GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE, JUST AS YOU AND YOUR WORDS ARE YOU.   NO ONE CAN BE YOUR WORD, NOR CAN YOU BE ANYONE ELSE’S WORD EITHER.

                                    THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE. 

    Jesus said (not me)……..“I am “in” the Father and the Father is “in” me”. 

    Question? How is Jesus, “IN” the Father and the Father “IN”  him?

    We all know God the Father is a Spirit, according to Jesus right,  So how can he be in Jesus and Jesus “in” him?  ,  it works this way,  as Jesus Grow in the words of God, who was telling him what to say and do, he was retaining the words of God “IN” HIM, and as he was retaining those words,  the person or being,  who said those words was existing “in” him, by those word remaining “IN” HIM.   THE SAME HOLDS TRUE WITH US , IF WE RETAIN THE FATHER’S WORD, AND Jesus’ words,  they remain “IN” BY THEIR “WORDS”.   

    Remember  Jesus said (not me),  “the words I am telling you are “Spirit”.  Yes they were God the Father’s word and he is Spirit, So “HIS” words are also Spirit” 

    when we become one with God the Father and Jesus their words remain in us, that is what makes us , “ONE” WITH THEM.”  ,  they exist “in” us by their word and we exist in them by our words also.  

    Peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

    #942808
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You

    You may disagree with my statement referred to, but looking at the previous verse “…He has names written and a name written which no one knows but himself.” (WEB) Most translations don’t have “has written names”; however, I find it interesting that it is inserted here. Who is known by more than one name? God or Jesus? What is most written about is the second half – a name only he knows. Are you saying that Jesus has a name that only he knows and that God his Father does not know!?! Sounds like a rebellious kid… hiding something from dad.

    Me

    I believe that ONLY Jesus knows this name because he ALONE
    EXPERIENCED in his earthly ministry what is written in Isaiah 63:2,3:
    I trod the press ALONE; and among the people there was NONE WITH ME:.

    Jacob received the name of Israel, why?

    Abram received the name Abraham, why?

    Jesus will have a new name
    when he comes back, why?
    What do the names mean?
    Why are they changed at some point?

    In the case of Jesus, this new name will be on the forehead of the victors

    👇

    KJB
    Whoever overcomes, I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall not come out of it again: and 👉I will write on him the name of my God,👈 and 👉the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and 👉 I will write on him my new name.👈
    These things will happen AFTER THE LAST JUDGMENT WHEN GOD MAKES ALL THINGS NEW

    You

    Moving on to the last part of verse 19:13, which seems to hook everyone up, “his name is called the Word of God”. The Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) renders this phrase as HaDvar Hashem (the word of God – the “Ha” defines a definite article) and is rendered the same in most translations. Dvar Hashem appears 87 times in the OJB and in most translations “of God” has been dropped, leaving only “word”. The same was done in John 1:1, the OJB has Dvar Hashem (word of God) and each translation removed “from God” and thus changed the meaning of what is conveyed by John and opens a door to an alternative meanings. See passages below:

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 So it was in the beginning with God. (KJV)

    1 Bereshis (In the beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [Yeshayah 55:11; Bereshis 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (with) Hashem [Mishle 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Tehillim 56:11(10); Yochanan 17:5; Apoc. 19:13] 2 Bereshis (In the beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Mishle 8:30]. (OJB)

    Reading the OJB is labor intensive and requires an additional tool to translate certain words, but the Jewish perspective is illuminating. One of the things I like is the references to additional passages for clarity. For example, Mishle 8:30 is referenced twice as Dvar Hashem “was with” Hashem (God), this reference is Proverbs 8:30, the chapter on “wisdom”. Read all of Proverbs 8, keeping John 1:1 in mind as you do; do you still see it, are things clearing up?

    I hope this helps you

    Me

    THE WORD OF GOD
    OR THE WORD IS NOT A PROBLEM

    THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT “THE WORD WAS WITH GOD” AND WAS GOD AND  WAS MADE FLESH.

    Are you still applying Isaiah 63:3 to God?

    Think carefully.

    Yesterday or the day before yesterday I read a meditation on Isaiah which I found very beautiful. I deliver it to you.

     

    I trod the wine press alone; and of the people there were none with me. Isaiah 63:3.

    During his childhood, youth and manhood, Jesus walked alone. In his purity and faithfulness he trod the winepress alone, and there was no one with him among the people. He bore the terrible weight of the responsibility for the salvation of men. He knew that unless there was a decided change in the principles and purposes of the human race, all would be lost. It was the burden of his soul, and no one could appreciate the weight that rested on him.7 Jesus Christ, 92.

    Throughout his life, his mother and his brothers did not understand his mission. Even his disciples did not understand this. He had dwelt in eternal light, as one with God, but his life on earth was to be spent in solitude. As one with us, He must bear the burden of our guilt and unhappiness. One who is without sin must feel the shame of sin. One who loves peace must live with conflict, truth must dwell with falsehood, purity with wickedness. Every sin, every discord, every filthy lust that transgression had brought, was a torture to His spirit.

    Alone, he must tread the path; alone he must bear the burden. It is on Him who has abandoned his glory and accepted the weakness of humanity that the redemption must rest.

    les as it should have been…. When Jesus was no longer with them, … they began to see how they might have shown Him attentions that would have brought gladness to His heart….

    The same want is evident in our world today. But few appreciate all that Christ is to them. If they did, the great love of Mary [Matthew 26:6-13] would be expressed, the anointing would be freely bestowed…. Nothing would be thought too costly to give for Christ, no self-denial or self-sacrifice too great to be endured for His sake.9The Desire of Ages, 565.

    From God’s Amazing Grace – Page 163

    🙏

     

    #942811
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    You

    To all……..Jesus said,  (not me),…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY words, but the words of him who sent me”.  

    So the idea of saying Jesus is the  word of God, is a lie, by Jesus’ own mouth.  GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE, JUST AS YOU AND YOUR WORDS ARE YOU.   NO ONE CAN BE YOUR WORD, NOR CAN YOU BE ANYONE ELSE’S WORD EITHER. 

     

    Me

    WRONG

    It is precisely because JESUS TRANSMITS THE WORDS OF GOD THE FATHER THAT HE IS CALLED 👉 THE WORD OF GOD 👈
    I don’t see why you are offended by this.

    If we were to follow your reasoning, John 1:1 would MAKE NO SENSE. (to me)

    IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD…

    IT CAN ONLY BE ONE PERSON

    AND THE WORD WAS WITH 👉THE GOD….👈

    THIS IS ANOTHER PERSON, IT IS GOD THE FATHER

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    If this was a plan, a Prophecy, a design of God, I ABSOLUTELY DID NOT see WHY JOHN WOULD SPEAK THAT WAY.

    A WORD THAT GOD SPEAKS IS NOT GOD BECAUSE ONLY THE PERSON OF GOD IS GOD.

    And then John 17:5
    is crystal clear

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self 👉with the glory which I had 👉with thee👉 before the world was.

    IN THE BEGINNING, THE SON OF GOD WAS WITH THE FATHER AND IT IS NOT PHILOSOPHY THAT WILL FORGET THIS HIGH FACT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE (UNCORRUPTED)

     

     

     

    #942813
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    BEREAN,   I am not offended by the fact Jesus tell us God the Father’s words that abide “in” him,  , that is exactly what I believe, but what offended both God the Father and me, is you going around telling people that Jesus , “IS”,  the word of God, That is a LIE. 

    Jesus never was God the Father’s word,  even though he “quoted” GOD THE FATHER’S WORDS TO US?   Jesus is the mediator, telling us God the Father’s words.  But you try to make him , himself God’s word, which makes you and other like you liars.  

    The truth is you and those who believe like are simply liars,  nor do you people honestly believe what Jesus himself “CLEARLY” said either.

    So no I am not offended about Jesus telling us God the Father’s words, but you lying and saying they are Jesus’ himselfs “own” words.

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

    #942814
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….John 1:1,  is not saying Jesus is the word of God,  no scripture says that Jesus “IS” the word of God,  he is no more the word of God then any of the Prophets of old are,  they all spoke to us the Father’s words, exactly the same way.  Through the Anointing Spirit that was abiding  “in”   them.

    The book of Hebrews clearly shows us that.  You simply are not abiding in the truth Berean, Repent !, while there is time.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #942816
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    In THE BIBLE IT IS WRITTEN :

    In Revelation 19

    And he(Jésus,) was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called :

     👉The Word of God. 👈

    SO I SAY THAT JESUS IS ALSO

    CALLED ” THE WORD OF GOD” 

    DO YOU BELEIVE THE BIBLE ?

     

    #942817
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    We need to backup this bus, are you really saying Isa 63:2,3 is a reference to Jesus’ ministry!??!!?!? Read verse 1, who is being judge here? Edom is…again!! Who is Edom? Edom is Esau (Gen 36:8), the nation of Edom is from Esau, Esau is Jacob’s brother, the son of Isaac. If this reference of God’s vengeance on Edom is speaking of Christ’s ministry, then every judgment of God’s on Edom is too. We cannot pick and choose what we want scripture to mean or extrapolate pieces that fit best into our religion to make it work. The flaw with your assertion is Christ ministry wasn’t to “stomp” people like one does in a wine press (put it all into context). God is judging Edom in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Malachi; and in the book of Revelation, God is judging mankind.

    Are you insinuating ONLY Jesus knows his “new name” and is hidden from God? Wouldn’t this “new name” come from God? Just like it did for Abraham and Jacob? So how can the son know something the father does not? The opposite can be true, the father can know something the son does not. You cite Rev 3:12 as proof because Christ will write upon them “his new name.” Who does Christ receive this “name” from? This passage allusions back to Isa 62:2 and it is God who will give this new name.

    You say “word of God” or “word” is a none issue and is acceptable, EXCEPT what does it really mean:

    Luke 7:13 “making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this.”

    Luke 4:4 “Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”

    Luke 5:1 “Now while the multitude pressed on him and heard the word of God, he was standing by the lake of Gennesaret.”

    Luke 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.”

    Luke 8:21 “But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are these who hear the word of God, and do it.”

    Luke 11:28 “But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God, and keep it.”

    John 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken)”

    Acts 4:31 “When they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were gathered together. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.”

    Acts 6:7 “The word of God increased and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly. A great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.”

    Acts 8:14 “Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,”

    Acts 11:1 “Now the apostles and the brothers who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.”

    Rom 10:17 “So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

    I Pet 1:23 “having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever.”

    Hopefully we’re getting the picture, to remove “of God” does change it’s meaning! This “word” comes from God and belongs to God. We are to be doers of God’s “word”. By removing “of God” in John 1:1 an idol has been created out of Christ, by elevating him to be equal to God and God himself! This is a false belief created out of the Council of Nicea and has deceived everyone for the last 1700 years!

    To answer your question of whether or not I’m applying Isa 63:3 and Rev 19:13 to God, ABSOLUTELY!! When the surrounding verses are placed into context, ask yourself who is the God of armies, who is known by many names, who can possible have a name only they know? All signs point to God Almighty, Hashem, Adonai, Yahweh, Yahweh-Maccaddeshem, Yahweh-Rohi, Yahweh-Shammah, Yahweh-Rapha, Yahweh-Tsidkenu, Yahweh-Jireh, Yahweh-Nissi, Yahweh-Shalom, Yahweh-Sabbaoth, Yahweh-Ghmolah, Elohim, El-Elyon, El-Gibhor, El-Roi, El-Olam, El-Shaddai-Rohi, El-Chuwl, El-Deah, Attiyq Youm.

    #942818
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DesireTruth

    I specified the following verse: 3]

    👉 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me:

    It is this verse that speaks of Christ, of his life on this earth
    It is a prophecy about Christ.

    The other part is in parallel with Revelation 19:13

    👉for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

    🙏

    #942820
    Berean
    Participant

    @ désire Truth

    Are you implying that ONLY Jesus knows his “new name” and is hidden from God? Doesn’t this “new name” come from God? Exactly as was the case with Abraham and Jacob?

    Don’t you understand that this new name will be that of the Son and not of the Father?

    Haven’t you read Rev. 3:12 that I mentioned, where Jesus speaks of his new name?

    It is Jesus speaking (see context v.7-11)

    KJB. v.12
    Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME

    Now, I never insinuated that the Father does not know this name, since the Father IS THE ONE WHO SENT THE SON TO EARTH FOR A SPECIAL MISSION AND BOTH ARE ONE IN SPIRIT.
    I AM IN THE FATHER AND THE FATHER IS IN ME.

    WHAT TO REMEMBER IS THAT THIS NEW NAME IS EQUAL TO AN EXPERIENCE, A UNIQUE, SPECIAL, GLORIOUS VICTORY, ABOVE EVERYTHING….

    THIS NEW NAME, HE WOULD NOT HAVE OBTAINED IF HE HAD NOT OVERCOME THE ENEMY ON EARTH.

    #942821
    Berean
    Participant

    👉This new name will be communicated to THE WINNERS.
    as mentioned before (Revelation 3:12)
    This new name is equivalent to the perfection of the character of Christ, which is imparted to believers by faith.

    #942822
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You are picking and choosing verses or parts of verses to support your religion. It’s like reading every other paragraph or starting in the middle of a book. You cannot possible hope to understand the story. We cannot use a “copy/paste” theology to understand what scripture is telling us! Thus your focus on a single part of a verse and say this part, and just this part, refers to Christ and then ignore the rest takes the original intent of the scripture out of context and changes the meaning of what is being said. This is false religion!

    Rev 3:12 and Rev 19:12 are two separate situations. Rev 3:12 speaks of the “new name” for Christ that the Father will give him at the appointed time; Rev 19:12 speaks of a name only the one riding the white horse knows. Are you saying God and the Son both know this name? If so, then scripture lies; because it states only the one riding the white horse knows this “unknown” name. If it’s Christ on the horse then God doesn’t know it…explain! Again, the Son cannot know more than the Father.

    #942823
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    We left from Rev.19:13
    You suggested Isaiah 63:2,3 as an interpretation of Rev.19:13
    your post
    👇
    “Rev 19:13 – are we understanding this correctly, YOU added Jesus in parentheses to emphasis the “he” is “Jesus”. This verse allusions back to Isaiah 63:2,3 and speaks of God’s day of vengeance. So who is it really being referenced, Jesus or God? Note in the next verse it is the armies who follow, who is the commander of heavens armies? Who is the “LORD Sabaoth” (not sabbath) – an interesting study if you dare.”

    Now explain yourself on Isaiah 63:3
    👉”I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me;”….👈

    please EXPLAIN ON THIS first part of verse
    and in what the Father is concerned.
    THANKS

    #942824
    carmel
    Participant

    .

    #942825
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: To all……..Jesus said,  (not me),…..

    “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY words, but the words of him who sent me”.  

    ME: Gene, The above are not SCRIPTURE BUT YOUR OWN TWISTED WORDS, which I already made clear to you MORE THAN ONCE, and you never SPECIFICALLY denied.

    So let’s start with the above “TWISTED” words of yours!

    Scripture:

    DRB: John 14:24 He that loveth me not, keepeth not MY WORDS.

    And THE WORD  which you have heard, is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    AS YOU CAN WELL READ, “MY WORDS” IN THE PLURAL  WITH A PERSONAL PRONOUN, ARE CLEAR REFERENCES  TO JESUS’ TEACHINGS, HIS GOSPEL!

    CONFIRMED ALSO IN THE NKJ, AND ALSO IN THE WORD “SAYINGS” IN THE KJB  HEREUNDER  BOTH IN THE PLURAL WITH THE PERSONAL PRONOUN!

    THEN JESUS CONTINUED AND SAID:

    And THE WORD  which you have heard, is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    AGAIN, AS YOU CAN WELL READ, IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE SINGULAR WITH THE ARTICLE. WHICH IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO

     THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER WITHIN JESUS! Confirmed by Jesus Himself, by His own words, read again and be honest and admit the truth!

    And the  word/SPIRIT which you have heard, is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    NKJ. He who does not love Me does not keep My WORDS;(PLURAL with the PERSONAL PRONOUN) and the WORD (SINGULAR with an ARTICLE) which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

    KJB: He that loveth me not keepeth not my SAYINGS: (PLURAL with the PERSONAL PRONOUN ) and the WORD (SINGULAR with an ARTICLE) which ye hear is not mine,

    but the Father’s which sent me.

    YOU: To all……..Jesus said,  (not me),…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY words, but the words of him who sent me”.

    So the idea of saying Jesus is the word of God, is a lie,

    by Jesus’ own mouth.  

    Me: NO Gene, YOU SAID THOSE PRECISE WORDS NOT JESUS!

    So the idea of saying Jesus is the word of God, is a lie, by Jesus’ own mouth.  

    NO Gene, they are LIES by your own mouth!

    You: GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE,

    Me: confirmed by Jesus READ AGAIN:

    And the  word/SPIRIT which you have heard, is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    Gene, JESUS’ OWN WORDS ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE! Confirmed hereunder:

    John6: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

    You: JUST AS YOU AND YOUR WORDS ARE YOU.   NO ONE CAN BE YOUR WORD, NOR CAN YOU BE ANYONE ELSE’S WORD EITHER.

    Me:  YOUR WORDS AND ANY HUMAN WORDS ON EARTH ARE NOT SPIRITS AND LIFE, and  THEY WILL NEVER BE AS SUCH WHILE THEY ARE STILL  LIVING AS HUMANS ON EARTH IN FLESH AND BLOOD!

    THIS DIDN’T APPLY TO JESUS AND HIS OWN WORDS WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH!   

     

    You: THE PRINCIPLE OF BEING “IN” , SOMEONE. 

    Jesus said (not me)……..“I am “in” the Father and the Father is “in” me”. 

    Question? How is Jesus, “IN” the Father and the Father “IN”  him?

    We all know God the Father is a Spirit, according to Jesus right,  

    So how can he be in Jesus and Jesus “in” him?  ,  

    it works this way,

    as Jesus Grow in the words of God, who was telling him what to say and do,

    he was retaining the words of God “IN” HIM, and as he was retaining those words, the person or being,  who said those words was existing “in” him, by those word remaining “IN” HIM.  

    THE SAME HOLDS TRUE WITH US , IF WE RETAIN THE FATHER’S WORD, AND Jesus’ words,  they remain “IN” BY THEIR “WORDS”.   

    Remember  Jesus said (not me),  “the words I am telling you are “Spirit”.  Yes they were God the Father’s word and he is Spirit, So “HIS” words are also Spirit” 

    when we become one with God the Father and Jesus their words remain in us, that is what makes us , “ONE” WITH THEM.”  ,  they exist “in” us by their word and we exist in them by our words also.  

    ALL THE ABOVE IS YOUR CARNAL-MINDED REASONING MR Gene, WITH EVERY RESPECT. WHICH I WILL TACKLE AND CONTRADICT IN THE NEXT POST!

    IN THE MEANTIME HERE ARE THESE SCRIPTURES IN RELATION TO YOUR REASONING ABOVE FOR YOU TO PONDER ON!

    John14:9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.  20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    John8:42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For FROM GOD I PROCEEDED, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me:

    Joihn15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 

    John16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD. 28I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again I leave the world, and I go to the Father.

    NOW YOU DID SAY “GOD IS A SPIRIT” BUT YOU ALSO SAID THAT THIS IS ACCORDING TO JESUS, SO IT SEEMS THAT YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT CONVINCED  THAT GOD THE FATHER IS A SPIRIT, THIS IS CONFIRMED BY YOUR CARNAL-MINDED REASONING ABOVE.  PLUS THAT YOU AND Jodi, PUT GOD IN THE SAME BASKET AS HUMANS ARE, AND  DO NOT EVEN ACCEPT GOD THE FATHER’S OWN WORDS IN ISIAIH! Read please:

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void,

    DOES YOUR WORD GOES FORTH OUT FROM YOUR MOUTH AND  RETURN NOT TO YOU VOID?

    but it shall do whatsoever I please,

    OR PERHAPS IT DOES WHATEVER YOU SAY! DOES IT?

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    MAYBE THIS ONE IS TRUE, AND IT REALLY APPLIES TO YOUR WORDS BY THE LOOK OF IT, WITH SO MANY FALSE TEACHING THAT YOUR WORD IS SPREADING.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    #942826
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    This is almost painful.

    What I said was Rev 19:13 allusions back to Isa 63:2,3 – meaning it references back to, there’s a connection.

    How can one single out a portion of a verse and use that for the basis of their understanding, if only a small portion is looked at (copy/paste theology) how can one see the wider picture? Now you’re asking me to explain a piece of a paragraph without viewing the rest of what has been written.

    “I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me.” This sentence simply says someone trodden a wine trough and no one helped. I find zero meaning in this sentence. NOW if I read the entire passage in the context of which it was written (verses 1-6); it speaks of God’s judgment upon Edom. Here he speaks of destroying them LIKE one who “treads in a wine press” and it’s going to be a bloodbath.

    If my explanation isn’t what you believe, explain your belief and why you believe what you believe. Be prepared for questions and be ready to answer them.

    #942829
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Camel and Gene,

    Why are we making this so difficult? There is NOTHING spiritual about the John 14:24. The whole summation of what Christ is teaching are the words which he is speaking; These words he speaks, come from one source; so grammatically the singular can be used – “the word of God”. So we are going to beat each other up over grammar?!?

    In Deut 18:18 God states he will put his words (plural) in the prophets mouth. (this reference for another time as related to John 1:1 and the preexistence of Christ). So the words Christ speaks are in fact from God and belong to God and God alone. These words simple are passing through Christ to the hearer.

    Concerning the “returning void”; if you are in a position of authority do the words you speak return to you “void” or are they actionable, requiring a result? Just as God’s words do not return “void”, our words don’t either when applied from the position of authority…remember, we are in the image of God.

    A mountain out of a mole hill…move on!

    #942832
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    If the concept of Jesus being the “word” is truth and is the original intent and meaning of John, why aren’t any other writers talking about it?!?

    If the writer is John who was with Jesus, then perhaps he had a special relationship with God that was deeper than the others. Thus, God reveals a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ through him. If it is another John, then the same explanation could be true. Regardless, we are all different. We are like prisms. God is light and we reflect a certain part of that light into a colour or few. This John reflects God uniquely and reveals a deep understanding of God. Other apostles like Paul or Peter reflect truth and God in different ways with a different style.

    The old testament says God is the creator all things and life comes from God. I think this understanding of “logos/word” meaning “divine reason” or “plan” scares people to death because it creates a trust issue with the “church system.” How can the “church” lie?

    I don’t trust what we call the Church system so that is not my excuse. Instead, it is really simple. It is what the scripture is actually saying so that is what I believe. It’s that simple. I do not have money on a particular view. Instead, I just read scripture and believe it. And when I delve deeper into it, I see that it is all harmonious, that is, there is no contradiction.

    He was WITH God, came in the flesh, obeyed God, gave up his life to save many, rose form the dead, and was raised up to where he was before with the Father in glory.

    He has first place in ALL things.

    Believing that Jesus Christ the Son of God was the first, is what scripture is telling us. It is not saying he is God, rather that he is the Son of God, and thus of God and the first. This is why he is special. He is the firstborn. If Jesus Christ is not the first to be with God then tell me who was. And further tell me why this other person is not the special person besides God?

    Revelation 3:14
    ”To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.   

    #942833
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    since Jesus is the flesh, the flesh is the “word”, therefore Jesus is the “word”, since Jesus is the “word”, he must be the “word” of verse 1, therefore Jesus is God. This is called circular reasoning.

    Jesus is the Word, and the Word is divine. The Word is God argument is incorrect. There is no definite article before theos in john 1:1c. Many scholars in the past and today understand this. Even many Trinitarian scholars understand this.

    “We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
    (Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

    When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
    – John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

    The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
    -Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

    We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
    -G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

    As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
    -Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

     

    #942834
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Heraclitus coined the term “logos” to explain away the divine reason or plan of a changing universe. Are we to ignore the originator of the word and substitute our own understanding? Using his definition and substituting “divine reason” or “plan” in place of “logos” (aka “word”), John 1:1 and the following verses take on a different meaning. In verses 3,4 the early modern translations (pre KJV) all have “it” in place of “him”; so all things where created by “it” and life was in “it”. It was the KJ translation the personified the “logos” by calling it “him”.

    It’s the definite article that is used with logos and the definite article that is used and not used with theos that gives the correct interpretation. This in no way negates that logos can and is an attribute. But the context is talking about a specific logos that and not an attribute that was WITH God in the beginning. This does match Jesus Christ who is now in the glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    Further, we are told that all was made through the logos but elsewhere we read the same through Jesus Christ and again, through the Son. What is that telling you? That they are one and the same.

    Finally, this Jesus Christ has a name, The Word of God. The final nail.

    Those who can spiritually discern can see what this all means.

    If you have the Spirit of Truth and you let scripture speak to you, this is the understanding you come away with because you have no favourite or wager on a particular view. If you start with a doctrine to begin with for whatever reason, you will unconsciously and maybe consciously bend all scripture to fit your own understanding.

    As the saying goes, how do you get vinegar from a sponge? Easy, you first soak the sponge in vinegar.

    #942841
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth

    You may disagree with my statement referred to, but looking at the previous verse “…He has names written and a name written which no one knows but himself.” (WEB) Most translations don’t have “has written names”; however, I find it interesting that it is inserted here. Who is known by more than one name? God or Jesus? What is most written about is the second half – a name only he knows. Are you saying that Jesus has a name that only he knows and that God his Father does not know!?! Sounds like a rebellious kid… hiding something from dad.

    me

    I gave you a first explanation about the name in Revelation 19:13 and it still holds. We may talk about it again.

    Well, there’s one thing, I didn’t pay attention to what my favorite bible said in Rev.19:13 about the name.
    👇
    His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, 👉 that no man knew,👈 but he himself.
    It is clear from the KJB that this means that NO MEN KNOW THIS NAME.
    This does not mean that GOD does not know him because God knows everything.

    TO BE FOLLOWED LATER

    🙏

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