John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,841 through 23,860 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #942945
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    These two don’t align and it is what Gene and I have had a problem with for so many years now.

    Let’s me analyse it for you then.

    1. He existed in the form of God.
    2. He emptied himself.
    3. He was born human and grew to adulthood.
    4. He died.
    5. He rose from the grave.
    6. He was taken up.
    7. He is with God in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.
    8. We who follow him will be taken up too.
    9. We will have a body like his.
    10. So to recap. He become one of us so we could be one of him. Sons of God.

    This easy 10 step process has zero contradictions and is 100% scriptural.

    Thank you. I am sure you can see that now that it has been laid out for you so simply.

    #942947
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    Did Jesus ever say he was the “word” or “the word”?

    Please provide scriptural examples.

     

    #942948
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    What does it mean Christ existed in the form of God?

    #942949
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    What does it mean Christ “emptied himself”?

    Emptied himself of what?

    #942950
    Berean
    Participant

    @ desire Truth you

    You

    You reject the idea that the God of the universe would dare to speak to his celestial creation….

    me

    not at all, but why would God speak to angels when He created man? How are they directly involved in this?

    You

    ….and affirm by speaking to them that HE was seeking their advice on how to create man. Nowhere in these verses does it say this is you. This is twisted and polluted thinking!

    Me

    I NEVER SUGGESTED THIS.
    ON THE CONTRARY, I SAID THAT THE ANGELS HAVE NOTHING TO SEE FOR THE CREATION OF MAN, SINCE I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS TO THEM THAT GOD ADDRESSES.

    REALLY, YOU LEND ME BAD THOUGHTS, IT’S NOT WORTHY OF A CHILD OF GOD.

    #942951
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Proclaimer,

    #10 doesn’t make sense, Jesus was in heaven at creation as God’s son, came to earth and became a man, only to return to heaven as the son again? Please clarify.

    #942952
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….where scripture say all thing was made for him,  it is referencing to the fact he was a human being, why?  Because scripture shows us this, Need proof?  Here it is , scripture says this (not me)……Heb 2:6-13……but one in a certain place testified, saying, what is man (mankind) that you are mindful of him (mankind)? Or the son of man, that you visit him (mankind),  You made him (mankind) a little lower then the angels; you crown him (mankind) with glory and honor, and did set him (mankind) over the works of your (singular) hands. You have put all  things in subjection under his (mankind’s) feet. For in that he (God) put all in subjection under him (mankind) he left “NOTHING”, that is not put under him (mankind). But now we see “NOT YET”,  all things put under him (mankind as a whole) .
    read the rest also.

    All of that has to do with mankind in a general sense,  and that also includes Jesus Christ, as a son of mankind,  the first to receive that inheritance, with many more to follow,  we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ,  because Jesus is and always was a human being, who came into being from his earthly roots.  “I am the root an offspring of DAVID” 

    QUESTION IS DO YOU TRLY BELIEVE WHAT Jesus and scripture says.

    #942954
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    “because Jesus is and always was a human being, who came into being from his earthly roots.  “I am the root an offspring of DAVID”

    Me

    You are polarized on a few verses that speak of his humanity BUT YOU SET AWAY the verses that speak of his pre-existence and divinity. You do not realize that this harms you for the understanding of the rest of the scriptures.
    Such a waste…

    #942955
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU:

    Yes it seems you do have a problem with Jesus Christ coming in the flesh.

    You have a problem with the Word becoming flesh.

    ME:

    Jesus Christ most certainly came in the flesh because Jesus was born a human being of flesh and when he was anointed of the Spirit and sent out into the world he remained a human being of flesh.

    Jesus is the NAME given to a human being who said, ” The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me “. We know that he was quoting the prophet Isaiah concerning himself, where Isaiah spoke God’s WORD extensively about a coming anointed man of the son of Jesse and of the house of David and that WORD became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth. 

    The Word of YHVH that was spoken by the prophets most certainly became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is THE WORD of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that THE PROMISE which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Proclaimer, you say that Jesus pre-existed as “The Word” and in the form of God but then he emptied himself becoming a human baby and this represents John 1:14 where the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

    Here are some Yes or No questions for you,

    Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVH’s WORD when he received the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH?

    Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVHs’ WORD where he was called to righteousness to fulfill YHVH’s covenant and be for a light, a GLORY that YHVH promised to no other?

    The LIGHT that John speaks of prior to verse 14, is that the LIGHT of YHVH’s WORD from Isaiah 42?

    Did the people behold the glory of Jesus as he spoke God’s word of TRUTH and performed miracles through having been FILLED with YHVH’s Spirit without measure?

    Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVH’s WORD when he was crucified bringing forth grace and salvation?

    When Nathanael in John 1 verse 49 said, “thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel”, was he speaking through his knowledge of YHVH’s promise to make a son of David into His own Son and promised also to make him into an eternal king?

    Is Jesus the ONLY mortal man to have the Spirit of YHVH come to abode in him and remain in him without measure?  Was Jesus thus led by the Spirit of YHVH in all his ways and therefore would be considered a Son of YHVH in that manner?

    #942956
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Here are some Yes or No questions for you,

    Is the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth the fulfillment of YHVH’s WORD 

    when he received the Spirit of Wisdom,

    Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of YHVH?

    Me: Hereunder are sufficient scriptures as answers to all your questions!

    Me: Luke 2:48 And seeing him, they wondered. And his mother said to him: Son, why hast thou done so to us? behold thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49And he said to them:

    How is it that you sought me? did you not know,

    that I must be about my father’s business? 

    Jodi this time you have to answer THIS:

    HOW JESUS A MERE CHILD OF TWELVE BECAME AWARE

    THAT GOD IS HIS FATHER?

    HE EVEN ANTICIPATED GOD AT THE RIVER JORDAN! NO?

    You: When Nathanael in John 1 verse 49 said, “thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel”, was he speaking through his knowledge of YHVH’s promise to make a son of David into His own Son and

    promised also to make him into an eternal king?

    Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep : 21For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But every one in his own order: the firstfruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming. 

    24Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue.

     25For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith, 27All things are put under him;

    undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him. 

    28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

    then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him,

    that God may be all in all.

    You:….was he speaking through his knowledge of YHVH’s promise to make a son of David into His own Son and

    promised also to make him into an eternal king?

    Explain Jodi,

    HOW GOD THE FATHER MAY BE ALL IN ALL AND NOT SUBJECT TO THE SON, AND

    THE SON IS THE ETERNAL KING!

    IT’S EITHER THE FATHER OR THE SON! NO?

    YES, I ALMOST FORGOT!

    John10:30 I and the Father are one.

     

    You: Is Jesus the ONLY mortal man to have the Spirit of YHVH come to abode in him and remain in him without measure?  Was Jesus thus led by the Spirit of YHVH in all his ways and therefore would be considered a Son of YHVH in that manner?

    John5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,

    so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:

    Jodi, HAVE YOU GOT LIFE IN YOURSELF AS A MORTAL HUMAN BEING, BY ANY CHANCE ?

    YES OR NO PLEASE. 

     

    John 10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life,

    that I may take it again. 

    HERE’S ANOTHER ONE Jodi,

    CAN YOU TAKE YOUR LIFE AGAIN AFTER YOU COMMIT A SUICIDE?

    18No man taketh it away from me:

    THE ABOVE IS DEFINITELY ENIGMATIC FOR A MORTAL MAN LIKE YOU,

    HOW COME ACCORDING TO JESUS, A MORTAL MAN,

    NO MAN TAKES HIS LIFE AWAY FROM HIM, 

    but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down:

    and I have power to take it up again.

    This commandment have I received of my Father.

    THIS ONE IS RATHER  ODD!

    JESUS, AS YOU SAID, A MORTAL MAN,  HAD A PARTICULAR POWER JUST TO DIE.

    A MORTAL HUMAN BEING LIKE YOU AND ME Jodi, DON’T REQUIRE A PARTICULAR POWER TO DIE,

    WE  SIMPLY WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT HAVE GOT TO DIE! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #942957
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Please refer to the following #post-942940 and read again and focus on the meat of what I said. The “us/our” of Gen 1:26; theologians “universally admitted” Jesus wasn’t the plural to whom God was speaking to. So who would be left for God to speak with? The heavenly body? Are you going to disregard the Jewish understanding and the theological minds of today in favor of what you believe? What I don’t understand is why this understanding hasn’t been relayed to the rest of the “christian” world. Could it possibly be because other long held Nicean based doctrine would also have to be addressed?

    What “bad thought” am I creating in you?

    #942958
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Did Jesus ever say he was the “word” or “the word”?

    Please provide scriptural examples.

    Yes, according to the Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him to show us via his angel, this was revealed to those who have ears to hear.

    He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God. The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.… 

    So this came directly from God who showed it to Jesus Christ and it was sent via an angel to us. That I would say is a pretty strong endorsement.

    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    Further, when you compare the attributes of the Word of God and the Son of God, you can see that they were both WITH God in the beginning and that God created all things through both the Word of God and Son of God and for them. I say them, but they are one and the same as Jesus Christ is known as Jesus because that is his name. His other name is the Word of God, thus he is also the Word of God.

    #942959
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    What does it mean Christ existed in the form of God?

    “Then the LORD God formed man.”

    Man is a person, but importantly, is a nature.

    (The) Adam is the person, and adam in Hebrew is man as in mankind.

    So if Christ Jesus existed in the form of God, then that likely is talking about divine nature or the form of God which could arguably be spirit. I see it as meaning he existed with divine nature, but not as the person of God himself.

    Similarly, Eve is adam / man, but she is not The Man / Adam. To equate this to this debate: Jesus Christ was divine but not God.

    So existing in the form of God has nothing to do with actually being God himself, but everything to do with form / nature instead. We read in John 1:1c that the Word was theos, not the Word was The Theos. Translators are aware that this has a qualitative meaning as opposed to identifying the Word as God himself, thus some translations say: The Word was divine. So why do other translations say that the Word was God himself? Because they incorrectly believe that being divine makes you God. They forget that we too can inherit divine nature which only makes us sons, not God.

    His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    Sons partake of God’s own nature. The Son existed with this nature, then emptied himself, partook of human nature, humbled himself, obeyed God, died, rose again, was taken up, and his now with the Father is the glory he had with him before the cosmos.

    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    So it seems that we will be resurrected in our bodies, but the nature of our body will change from physical to spiritual.

    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.…

    #942960
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU:

    You have a problem with God created all things through The Word that was WITH God.

    You have a problem with God creating the all things through Jesus Christ.

    You have a problem with his name being ‘The Word of God’.

    ME:

    Your statements are totally false on what I have a problem with and you should know this by now.

    The problem is with how you define “The Word”.

    The problem is with how you define the word “through”.

    I do not have a problem with Jesus being given a name that is called the word of God, such fits in perfectly with the surrounding text where Revelation 19 tells us the name written is King of kings and Lord of lords and shows us directly how this name is indeed of God’s word referencing the prophets regarding a man who is king and lord overall.

     

    #942961
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Proclaimer…….where scripture say all thing was made for him,  it is referencing to the fact he was a human being, why?  Because scripture shows us this, Need proof?  Here it is , scripture says this (not me)……Heb 2:6-13……but one in a certain place testified, saying, what is man (mankind) that you are mindful of him (mankind)? Or the son of man, that you visit him (mankind),  You made him (mankind) a little lower then the angels; you crown him (mankind) with glory and honor, and did set him (mankind) over the works of your (singular) hands. You have put all  things in subjection under his (mankind’s) feet. For in that he (God) put all in subjection under him (mankind) he left “NOTHING”, that is not put under him (mankind). But now we see “NOT YET”,  all things put under him (mankind as a whole) .

    This is easy to explain. God gave man dominion on the earth. Man lost that dominion. God sent the one who existed in the form of God to be born as a man (come in the flesh). He emptied himself and then came in the flesh. So no chance of a dual nature here as Trinitarians claim. He came as a man. He lived as a man from a baby. He died as a man. He is now back in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos in his glorified body. Further, we who follow him will have a body like his.

    Simple! Just read all the text as it is stated and this is the conclusion.

    #942962
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Jodi

    I do not have a problem with Jesus being given a name that is called the word of God,

    Nice little change in detail right there. Did you not think I would notice that?

    In English we capitalize when the definite article is preceding and this is important.

    If we didn’t respect that, then ‘The God’ in scripture could be ‘god’ or even ‘a god’ to give it sense in English.

    So his name is the ‘Word of God’, not ‘word of God’.

    1

    #942963
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Revelation 19 tells us the name written is King of kings and Lord of lords and shows us directly how this name is indeed of God’s word referencing the prophets regarding a man who is king and lord overall.

    There is a difference.

    1. HIS name is the Word of God.
    2. On HIS robe and on his thigh he has THIS name written: king of kings and lord of lords.

    I like football (soccer), so I will explain it like this for you and reference both soccer and NFL. On a football shirt you typically have the name of the entity you are representing. For example, it might say ‘Barcelona’ or ‘Patriots’. But you also have the name of the player on the shirt such as Messi or Brady.

    There is a difference because one is your own name and the other is who you are representing.

    I think this should clear that point up for you.

    #942965
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Divine Nature is not about what kind of “being” you are. The idea of existing as a human being and becoming some sort of a spirit being and by such we become of God’s divine nature is not of scripture. Partaking of the divine nature is about God’s Spirit dwelling in you, it’s about drinking of the one cup that Jesus drinks of, the One Spirit to the cause that we walk in all of God’s ways living in righteousness.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Ephesians 5:For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Mathew 13:41 The Son of man (anthropos HUMAN BEING) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man (anthropos HUMAN BEING) shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Jesus is still a human being as he sits at God’s right hand and when he comes to earth he is still a human being. 

    Jesus himself when he was raised from the dead received the PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT and it is by that Spirit where it’s fruit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth, does he exist in God’s image, he is of God’s divine nature, he is heavenly, he is of a Spiritual mind not of a carnal mind. 

    Isaiah 11 is prophecy not completed and therein we have a human being who has God’s Spirit upon him being directed by God in all his ways to fulfill God’s will, destroying the wicked and rewarding believers with the inheritance of the promised Spirit and of eternal life.

    If you read passages that don’t hold God’s word true that He promises to give us a new heart of flesh and give us of His Spirit to then walk in all His ways, or don’t hold God’s word true that a human with God’s Spirit upon him is returning to be our king overall the earth, then you are most certainly interpreting those passages all wrong. 

    #942966
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    I don’t see how our analogy applies here honestly.

    I see that you keep missing something, twice now you have said, “his name is the Word of God”.

    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is CALLED The Word of God.

    Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    To me, verse 13 is speaking further about the name of verse 12, one name is being spoken of and no man knew that name but himself and that same name is called the word of God.

    Then we are directly give God’s word spoken by the prophet Isaiah that has everything to do with the name that is written. 

    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    The same name is being spoken of in verses 12, 13, and 16, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS and this one name is being directly shown to rightfully be called the word of God as we are being given the word of God that applies to the very reason why he has been given this name.

    YES or NO

    Verses 11 and 15 are of the word of God spoken by the prophet Isaiah and they speak of a man being of the highest authority?

    The name KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS aligns perfectly with the word of God spoken by Isaiah as well as many other prophets as that word speaks of a coming king and ruler having authority overall the earth?

    The answers to both are YES and thus it is also true that his name, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, can rightfully be called the word of God.

     

    #942967
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Man from Heaven

    Divine Nature is not about what kind of “being” you are. The idea of existing as a human being and becoming some sort of a spirit being and by such we become of God’s divine nature is not of scripture.

    Yet we read this in scripture. So it is really about believing scripture or not.

    Scripture: ye might be partakers of the divine nature;
    Jodi: Not true. Divine Nature is not about what kind of “being” you are.
    Conclusion: Flesh nature defines our body and nature, but divine nature doesn’t for some reason? Read the scriptures Jodi. First the physical then the spiritual. You do not believe obviously. It’s all about flesh for you and only flesh. If you do not believe much of the New Testament, then how can you call yourself a believer? If you have the Spirit, then you would believe in spiritual things.

    But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”
    How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
    When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
    But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
    All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.
    There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
    The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
    So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
    it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
    it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
    The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
    The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
    As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
    And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
    I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed–
    in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
    For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
    When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Viewing 20 posts - 23,841 through 23,860 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account