John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,741 through 23,760 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942651
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene,

    What bible do you use?
    I recommend the KING JAMES, IT’S THE SAFEST. APART FROM TIMES COMMA…..

    🙏

    #942652
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    16 For by reason of him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by reason of him, and for him:

    Jesus didn’t MAKE himself lord nor MAKE himself a king of kings, YHVH our Father did, so it’s nonsense to insist that “dia” means “by means of” in verse 16. 

    Me

     

    COLOSSIANS 1

    V. 16

     16
    oti en autw ektisqh ta panta ta en toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV ta orata kai ta aorata eite qronoi eite kuriothteV eite arcai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eiV auton ektistai

    oti 👉en 👈autw ….because in him…

    👉”en”  👈do NOT means 👉by reason of  

     

    👇

    1722

    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), ie a relation of rest (intermediate between and 1537) ; “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly , X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when , where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition. eiV – eis 1519

     

    Much more latter if God want

     

    🙏

     

    #942655
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (to be first). 

    Me: In the above scripture, you gave importance to

    TWO PARTICULAR TASKS DIRECTLY BY JESUS AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, to be clear

    JESUS IS THE BEGINNING and THE PREEMINENCE/THE FIRST!

    On the other hand, you never elaborated what these two of Jesus’ attributes out of many actually MEAN.

    In the process of creation/redemption, there are many BEGINNINGS and MANY FIRSTS.

    WHY DON’T YOU  ELABORATE FOR A CHANGE AND TELL US ABOUT THESE BEGINNINGS AND FIRSTS?

    LET US HEAR YOUR PERCEPTIONS AND BELIEF ABOUT HOW JESUS IS BOTH

    THE BEGINNING OF ALL GOD’S BEGINNINGS and

    THE PREEMINENCE, or as you WELL defined it

    THE FIRST OF ALL GOD’S FIRSTS. Attention please:

    WITHOUT CONTRADICTING YOURSELF, and in the same time, justify yourself that God established

    ALL “THE BEGINNINGS” and ALL “THE PREEMINENCES”/THE FIRSTS

    “BY REASON OF” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, 

    NOT DIRECTLY  BY JESUS HIMSELF!

    To give you a clear hint;

    THE FIRST MAN ADAM WAS ALSO THE BEGINNING of the human race,

    Thus WAS ADAM CREATED AND MADE BY REASON OF JESUS, OR DIRECTLY  BY

    JESUS, “THE WORD”, THE SON OF MAN,

     AS A SPIRIT IN ADAM’S HEART/SOUL SINCE ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM…..

    This is well specifically depicted in

    Job33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and

    the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

    CAN YOU SEE THE TRUTH Jodi,

    THE ALMIGHTY GAVE LIFE TO ALL THINGS MADE BY A PARTICULAR SPIRIT OF GOD.

    NOW THERE IS ONLY ONE SPIRIT THAT MADE ALL THINGS, AND THIS IS

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, THE PREEXISTED JESUS,

    THE WORD MADE FLESH!

    OR ELSE, WHY DON’T YOU TELL US WHO IS THIS SPIRIT OF GOD IN JOB  ABOVE WHO MADE ELIEU, Jodi?

    John 1:1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942657
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    To all,

    We say “all scripture” is “100% God breathed” and “infallible” and these are true statements; BUT, what has man done to scripture? Was there anything lost in translation between languages? Was anything added or removed? Where are the original documents – they’re available for the OT? We have been conditioned to accept the Greek over Aramaic (language of the day) or Hebrew. When did it seem a good idea to translate Biblical text into a language that is heavily rooted in philosophy? Do we disregard the possibility of Greek philosophy being incorporated into the scriptural translation? Something unique with ancient Greek is that it was written in all caps (hmmm), no punctuation, or spaces. Yet, the translators have added all that in; they “fixed it” so all could “better understand”.

    A simple change in tense, plurality, or punctuation can change the meaning of a sentence. Titus 2:13 is a fine example of this manipulation. Verify it for yourself (https://biblehub.com/parallel/titus/2-13.htm), that little coma added in some translations changes the meaning of the verse from two appearing to one appearing; and the “one appearing” is “our great God and savior, Jesus Christ”. Which is perfect for those who believe Jesus is God. Which translation is truth (let the fight begin)?

    To continue…

    #942658
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Same with John 1:1. The difference between a definite article or no definite article can be significant.

    #942659
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer, how do you account for the fact that it is the Son of Man that was exalted to God’s right hand according to a promise? That it is the Son of Man that is returning in our Father’s glory and it is the son of David that is to sit on an eternal throne where God had promised to this son of David that He WOULD BE a Father unto him and that He WOULD settle him into His House?

    Jesus Christ is the Word of God, the son of God, the son of Man, the final Adam, lord, savior  and messiah. That is how you account for it. He was with God, came in the flesh, and is back with God in the glory he had before the cosmos. And we know that the Word was WITH God before the cosmos too. Then it is revealed to us by John that Jesus Christ is called the Word of God. This clearly makes him the Word of God. No argument.

    Additionally, all things were made through the Word just the same that all things were made through the Son. Is that two that God made all things through? Being called the Word of God is a huge clue in case you cannot see it.

    If you do not want to acknowledge and glorify the Son for all that he is, then that is your choice of course. But don’t expect me to be convinced of your limited view that lacks revelation given to us by Jesus and the apostles.

    I guess you don’t know who the firstborn of all creation really is.  It could be a being called Bruce for all you know.  Do you have another candidate for the first to be with God? I guess not. But even you could understand that the first to be with God would have to be the most special being besides God himself. Do you agree? Is Bruce or whatever his name, the most special being on account of being with God first?

    #942667
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    …continued from previous post,

    We can’t all be right and the other guy wrong because our beliefs conflict. Is the believed doctrine supported by scripture or not? If scripture does not support, has to be manipulated, or man’s “read between the line” interpretation must be used to achieve the doctrine, it’s a lie and cannot remain in the church…period! How then is the truth or lie revealed? This is accomplished thru the careful study of God’s word, by allowing God’s spirit to guide (pray for wisdom), and thru conversation as we grow in understanding. I will repeat, understanding the old testament is important, because it’s from the old we gain the insight into what the writers of the new are trying to convey to the reader – they taught from the old. The Apostles didn’t write a “new” testament, man compiled it 300 years after they were all dead.

    Let’s use the trinity (any doctrine will work) as an example of the “I’m right, your wrong” belief system in the church today; one side says it’s true and the other says it’s not. Who’s correct? Ask either side and each will say they are; here’s the rub, one’s wrong! You both can’t be right. This “I’m right and your wrong” has and is causing the church to fracture and why there are over 30,000 different denominations worldwide today. We as a church body are no longer unified under Christ; we are divided and pitted against one another, religion against religion, faith against faith and each one claiming theirs is the correct one. When did people begin refusing to consider anything outside the “religious box” they are in. How did the traditions and doctrines of man become so elevated they can never be questioned?

    to continue…

    #942668
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..I believe, if whatever is said “contradicts ”  what is written in the old Testement,  it is a lie.  I also believe it takes the “spirit of truth”  to guide your mind into the true meaning of scriptures.  

    We were told by PAUL to study the scriptures, to show ourselves , “approved unto God by “rightly” dividing the word of God”.  At the time Paul said that,  here existed only the OLD TESTEMENT, for them to study.  So to me,  whatever is said, if it in anyway conflicts with the Old Testement,  it is most likely not true.  The New Testement needs to read with great caution,   be cause it is full of  grammatical errors,  that has been proven by scholars, over and over  thousand of times,  even whole book have been written about it.  I am not saying we can’t gain knowledge from the New Testement,  but we need to be carefull, with it, epically in cases of contradictions.

    The Spirit of God shows us those false teaching errors.  Just as it says…..“brethren you have no need of a teacher, for the Spirit itself will teach you “ALL” things.” 

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth. ……..gene

     

    #942670
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    EN- translated as “in” 1874 times

    For IN Christ Jesus were all things created

    Look at what Paul teaches in some of his other passages,

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in (en) Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    Recall, Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Ephes 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in (en) Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in (en) him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In (en) whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;  8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in (en) Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

    Roman 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in (en) Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in (en) Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Berean, nothing would have been made that was made by God our Father without Christ.

    We were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world as we are blessed with all the spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus where our inheritance is in him as God has given us grace and redemption in him.

    God’s purpose from the foundation of the world was to gather together in one all things in Christ. In Christ were all things created because in Christ shall all be made alive. God who made earth and man ALONE, did so for the purpose that earth be inhabited with righteous people. Christ is the foundation to which God had ALONE created all things where Christ Jesus is the firstborn to that which God intended before the world began.

    WHO IS CHRIST? He is the son of David promised to be God’s Son where God would not take His goodness away from him, He would settle him into His House and His Kingdom forever and give him an eternal throne. Christ is this promised son of David to whom God called to righteousness begetting him with his Spirit and set him apart (anointed him) to fulfill God’s purpose for why God created all things in the first place, for man to inhabit an earth full of righteousness and peace.

    IN Christ Jesus were all things created, they were created by reason of him and for him.

    #942671
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    …to conclude,

    The question that almost got me kicked out of a church: Why do we believe what we believe? Answer: Because we were told what to believe and why would we question it, the source comes from a pastor, the one “called by God” into “the ministry”. We treat our doctrines and traditions as though they’re infallible, words from God; but our doctrines, traditions, and religion, are of man. I believe people fear the truth because of what it will do to their religion; their religion is so important they can’t let it go and it ends up blinding them. Then there’s pride, who wants to be told what they believe to be truth may actually be wrong? So let’s double down on our belief.

    Time is short, if we can’t get past doctrine, the church will remain divided, and a house divided will not stand. This division is of Satan and it’s working perfectly as the house continues to fracture. It’s past time to start questioning what came out of the Council of Nicea and every doctrine that blossomed after. A seed of deceit has been sown and man has been watering and nurturing it ever since.

    I came here with the hope of learning and presenting the thoughts of what I have discovered as I have studied scripture and then to grow as these thoughts and ideas are bounced off others; however, the encounter has been no different than anywhere else I have tried to share, all met with criticism because it doesn’t align with doctrine. These doctrines have become so important and ingrained in our thinking that we no longer see the larger plan God put in place. The church is in trouble and most don’t see it.

    If anything that I have said is incorrect, please correct me. Will we grow in our study of scripture or parrot what our religion teaches? I’m not here to change your mind, just to think outside the constraints of religion.

    Onto why I joined this group…is the “Word” a who or what? What does “logos” really mean?

    #942672
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    As I have pointed out before, the context of the entire chapter of Colossians 1, Paul is speaking of just ONE creation, the one that he who shed his blood became firstborn of.

    Leading up to Paul speaking of a firstborn overall creation we read,

    5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

    12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Not only does Paul in the first, clearly talk about the new heaven and earth that is our hope laid up in heaven for us, our inheritance, where we will dwell on earth being ruled by the son of David whom God promised He would be a Father to, he then also speaks directly of the man who shed his blood.

    What happened to that man after he shed his blood, where was he when Paul was writing these words, as that is the obvious context to verse 15.

    He shed his blood and then was raised from the dead having become the firstborn of every creature unto the new heaven and earth that Paul WAS JUST SPEAKING ABOUT and at the time Paul wrote this letter this man was sitting at God’s right hand as that firstborn!

     

    #942674
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    why cast doubt on the new testament?
    I do not agree. And I think Jesus disagrees, neither does the Father.

    🙏

    #942675
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    I think it’s funny how you said “no argument”!

    YOU:

    Jesus Christ is the Word of God, the son of God, the son of Man, the final Adam, lord, savior and messiah. That is how you account for it. He was with God, came in the flesh, and is back with God in the glory he had before the cosmos. And we know that the Word was WITH God before the cosmos too. Then it is revealed to us by John that Jesus Christ is called the Word of God. This clearly makes him the Word of God. No argument.

    ME:

    There is an argument over if Paul in Colossians 1 is speaking of 2 creations or just one. I have just shown how Paul is clearly referencing ONE creation. There is an argument over which definition of DIA is to be applied and that of EN as well.

    There is an argument over if Revelation 19 is declaring two names or just one name, where that name that is written is God’s word fulfilled.

    There is argument as to how Jesus exists as God’s Son and when he became God’s Son.

    There is argument over if a god was morphed into a virgin’s womb becoming flesh like some pagan god or God’s word became true in the man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth.

    There is argument over the glory Jesus references in John 17 that was of (para) God before the world was.

    There is argument over what scriptures should be read in the context of God’s clear truth declared by God from the beginning, that a man would be called to righteousness to fulfill God’s purpose for why God had made all things in the first place.

    And argument over a whole lot more!

    You haven’t accounted for anything Proclaimer, because the fact of the matter is you can’t, it’s not possible.

    You can’t have both, you can’t have on one hand that God promised to be a Father unto David’s Son, promised to make him His firstborn, promised to not take His goodness away from him, promised to settle him into His house and his kingdom forever and promised to give him an eternal throne and then say there was already a Son settled in God’s house who then became a son of David. Please read my post to the topic I recently created “The Only Begotten Son”.  You deny how it is that God would be a Father unto David’ son.

     

     

    #942676
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    IN Christ Jesus were all things created, they were created by reason of him and for him. 

    Me

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Why add to what is written?

    🙏

    #942680
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……..You bet I cast doubt on the  New Testement,  translations,  epically when and where it contradicts  the old Testement.

    As Desire truth, has said you are living in a “box” , YES a box  created for you by,  the SEVENTH DAY ADVANTISTS,  a box without a door.

    By the way it wasn’t me who told us to do what I said, it was THE APOSTAL PAUL.

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean………..gene

     

     

    #942681
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME:

    IN Christ Jesus were all things created, they were created by reason of him and for him.

    YOU:

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Why add to what is written?

    ME: I am not adding anything, I am repeating what is given in the beginning and end of one verse.

    16 For in him (Christ Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (reason of) him, and for him:

     

    #942682
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    There is a big difference between Paul’s wholesome exhortations and your casting doubts, all to justify your Antichrist views.

    #942683
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi  Jodi

    The end of the verse 16 IS NOT” By reason of him …..”

    BUT  👉 “BY HIM “….

    BECAUSE

    IN HIM” IS THE SAME THAT ” BY HIM”

     

    For by/in him were all things created, …….

    ,……. all things were created by him, and for him. 

    ALSO, for my understanding
    by reason of him, it’s the same as: for him
    and it is repeating itself to say “by reason of him and “for him”at the end of the verse.

    So , I BELEIVE THAT THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS RIGHT.

    🙏

     

    #942684
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean, you state in reference to Col 1:16-17:

    “BECAUSE BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED ….(see v. 16-17)
    In other words CHRIST ORIGINALLY HAD TO BE OUR CREATOR IN ORDER TO BE OUR REDEEMER”

    Please scripturally support Jesus is our creator and “had” to be “in order” to be our redeemer.

    Psalm 33 (read the entire chapter). Jesus is the creator?

    Psa 148:5 Yahweh commanded and they were created – Jesus ?!?

    Isa 40:28 Says “Everlasting God, Yahweh, the Creator” – Jesus?!?

    Mark 13:19 Jesus’ words” …creation which God created…” Why didn’t Jesus say “I created”?

    Rev 4:9-11 Who sits on the throne who is worthy created all things – Jesus?!?

    Both you and Jodi are stuck on the Greek word “en” and have been dancing over that for the last week; look into the word “created”.

    The Greek of this word is “ktizo” (Strongs G2936) – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was “not there before” (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer).

    Thayer further clarifies: In the Bible, to create: of God creating the world, man, etc., Mark 13:19; 1 Corinthians 11:9; Colossians 1:16 (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 272 (255)); Ephesians 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:3; Revelation 4:11; Revelation 10:6 (Deuteronomy 4:32; Ecclesiastes 12:1

    In the list of scripture given, Col 1:16 is included and according to Thayer God is the only one who can create. So now we roll right into the next question, is Jesus equal too God, the same as God, or is God the Almighty? Which surprisingly (not really) brings us back to John 1:1…fascinating isn’t it!

    #942685
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DesireTruth

    It seems to me that I asked you a question which you did not answer.
    About the origin of the Son of God in relation to Micah 5:2
    I asked you to tell me what you thought of it.
    here…i’m waiting
    THANKS

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