John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,721 through 23,740 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942542
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Afternoon Berean,

    I’d like to point out that most Christians with the same or similar beliefs as you and those also with very different beliefs, feel the very same way you do. Seeking biblical truth and a relationship with God does become very personal.

    I am 46 years old and unlike you and others, my beliefs are not set in stone, as I put scripture above my own current understanding. A change in my belief does not call into question the validity of my previous relationship and walk with God. I have argued in the past a particular belief to later be humbled realizing I was in error and it only served to strengthen my relationship with God and I have mentally prepared myself to be humbled again as I journey forward to test all things.

    I am prepared to stand corrected and I am on this forum to test my understanding with those of others and see who is providing the best scriptural support to their belief. The best scriptural support is going to be the closest to the truth, that’s what we’ve got to work with, as anyone sane or a total lunatic can say the Spirit of God is upon them giving them personally the true understanding and then argue they are right.

    #942543
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Concerning verse 1:17 of Colossians that you previously provided,

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;

    This also aligns perfectly with other passages outside of Colossians 1. From the beginning all things were made for the Son of Man to inherit and rule over, God promised a son of David to be a king of kings. Additionally it’s a given scriptural truth that YHVH planned and created all things through knowing that by one man’s righteousness, by one man’s obedience, all things would be reconciled unto YHVH, and thus all things consist by reason of this one anointed man, without him nothing would have been made that was made. The below passage speaks to this as well.

    2 Timothy 1: 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    YOU:

    THE NEW TESTAMENT IS HERE TO ILLUMINATE THE OLD.
    JUST AS THE SUN IS THE SOURCE OF LIGHT FOR THE MOON, SO THE NEW TESTAMENT IS THE SOURCE OF LIGHT THAT ILLUMINATES THE OLD TESTAMENT BECAUSE OF CHRIST WHO IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD:
    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.(John 8:12)

    ME:  

    As we are given from the prophet Isaiah in 11, 42 and 61, a Son of Man is given God’s Spirit where it is an anointing as this man is set-apart through that Spirit upon him to be SENT out into the world to fulfill God’ will, God’s purpose for having made all thing in the first place. This is also spoken of as this man being CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESSS for him to be for a LIGHT unto the world where he would be sent into the world to preach the truth, he would be sent to open the eyes of the blind, he would be sent to deliver prisoners who sit in darkness.  

    Can you acknowledge Berean, that according to scripture the man Jesus is a LIGHT because he was set-apart by God having been called to righteousness for to be a LIGHT?

    He had received the Spirit not by measure to be a LIGHT, as the fruit of the Spirit that came to abode in him at the river Jordan was in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

     

    #942552
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Took my questions to the pastors of the church only to be told I’m wrong and even told I needed to stop studying so much…what the what!?!?…..

    The one thing that has remained consistent is everyone’s doctrine is correct and the other guys is wrong. How can everyone be right and wrong at the same time. Quite the paradox isn’t it?…..

    Not many truly dig into scripture today, they rely on pastors to tell them what the bible says……

    I can totally relate. Sounds very similar to my experience more than 20 years ago. After that, I had a dream from God that used much symbols that I had to decipher. I did that, but one part of the dream showed the old church I use to attend and they were portrayed as crazy which is how I really think God saw them. Nice people, but weird teachings, doctrines, and habits that bore little resemblance to the teachings of Christ and the apostles.

    In my experience, most denominations just want you to tow the line, pay the tithe, help out here and there, be friends with the members of the congregation, and don’t mix too much with other believers outside of the organisation. On that last point, I wrote this writing.

    The Fire

    #942558
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    Concerning verse 1:17 of Colossians that you previously provided,

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;

    This also aligns perfectly with other passages outside of Colossians 1. From the beginning all things were made for the Son of Man to inherit and rule over, God promised a son of David to be a king of kings. 

    Me

    You wrote : “From the beginning all things were made for the Son of Man…

    It is already good to recognize THAT.

    BUT THERE IS MORE :

    👉EVERYTHING WAS MADE BY HIM

    👉 HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS

    👉 BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST(hold together)

    …..all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    🙏

     

    #942559
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    I appreciate you coming forward to say directly that nothing will change your belief, that is nice to know. Your ability to defend your belief as God’s truth however I would say is very much lacking though.

    You say, “but there is more” as if we haven’t been debating already about Colossians 1. Why do you do that, why must you pretend?

    I had asked you if you could admit to the fact that BY-DIA can mean, “by reason of” and “by means of”. Are you able to admit that?

    Are you also able to admit that defining “by” as “by means of” is directly against God’s word elsewhere, but “by”  as in “by reason of” aligns perfectly with God’s word elsewhere?

    You have admitted yourself that your interpretation does in fact create a contradiction that then needs to be reconciled, but your attempt to produce reconciliation has failed miserably, I couldn’t even gather from you a single thing that established any sort of reconciliation.

    1. We are given that there is one God, YHVH,  who created earth and man by Himself and it is He alone that creates light.
    2. We are given that YHVH created earth for the purpose that it be inhabited and that He created man to inhabit the earth seeking Him not in vain but in righteousness.
    3. We are given that YHVH who created man and gave him a spirit to walk therein promised to call a man to righteousness, giving this man of His Spirit, for him to be a light bringing prisoners out from darkness, where YHVH holds his hand and leads him to be this light. Our Creator made Jesus of Nazareth into a light.
    4. We are given that YHVH calls one man to fulfill His purpose for having created all things in the first place, where this one man brings forth righteousness and is given the earth to inhabit and rule over it all. Such was declared by YHVH from the beginning.

    The above and much more is exactly why Paul would say that all things were created by reason of him and for him and why he would say that he is before all things and that in him all things consist, because without him nothing would have been made that was made. Paul explains verse 17 in verses 18-22 and it doesn’t at all fit with your doctrine.

    I have pointed out, which you likewise refuse to acknowledge, that the Creator in Colossians 1 also creates thrones and dominions and we are given that God promises to give a son of David an eternal throne and give him dominion overall the New earth. It is not possible for Jesus to be the Creator spoken of in Colossians 1, what is possible and scripturally sounds is that things were created by reason of him and for him.

    I have also pointed out that the entire context of Colossians 1 is speaking of the coming Kingdom of God and the New heaven and earth of which the man who shed his blood and went to sit at God’s right hand is firstborn of and ruler overall of. Jesus is not the firstborn of the creation that God knew would be equated to sin and death and would be destroyed, he is the firstborn of righteousness and eternal life in an eternal kingdom of God.

    #942561
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    I absolutely do not agree with the Unitarian interpretation which makes Christ a BEING who came from below WHILE HE IS FROM ABOVE.

    LOOK WELL AT ALL THE USES OF “DIA”

    https://biblehub.com/greek/1223.htm

    .among other things

    👇

    II. of the Ground or Reason on account of which anything is or is not done; by reason of because of (German aus Grund).

    1. of the reason for which a thing is done, or of the efficient reason, when for greater insight it may be rendered by (cf. Kühner, § 434 Anm.);

    To. with the accusative of the thing: δἰ ἥν, viz. τήν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμέραν (properly, by reason of which day, i. e. because it will come (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 400 (373))), 2 Peter 3:12; διά τόν λόγον (properly, by reason of the word, i. e. because the word has cleansing power), John 15:3; διά τό θέλημα σου (Vulg.proptar voluntatem tuam, i. e. because thou didst will it), Revelation 4:11; add, Revelation 12:11; Revelation 13:14 (ἀναβιώσκεται διά τήν τοῦ πατρός φύσιν, Plato, symp., p. 203 e.); see Grimm on 2 Macc. 3:1.

    b. with the accusative of the person, by whose will, agency, favor, fault, anything is or is done: διά τόν πατέρα … δἰ ἐμέ (properly, because the father lives … because I live (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 399 (373))), John 6:57; διά τόν ὑπταξαντα, by the will of him who suffered it, opposed to οὐχ ἑκοῦσα, Romans 8:20 (cf. Winer’s 399 (373) note); μή εἴπῃς ὅτι διά κύριον ἀπέστην, Sir. 15:11; so too in the Greek writings of every age; see Krüger, § 68, 23; Grimm on 2 Macc. 6:25. Much more often

    🙏

    #942562
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Clarification, I do not believe that Christ “came from below”Christ came directly FROM YHVH, directly thus FROM HEAVEN and such was a fulfilled promise spoken by the prophets that was YHVH’s WORD before the world began. 

    There exists ONLY ONE SENDING of the Anointed Jesus, ONLY ONE SENDING out into the world of an only begotten Son of God. There is no sending of an only begotten Son down to earth to be transformed into an embryo in virgin Mary’s womb. Such is the work of pagans trying to make Jesus into the likes of one of their pagan gods to serve a political purpose under Roman rule, where then men were murdered for believing in a Jesus according to OT prophecy over that of pagan mythology.

    DIA, through

    1. through
      1. of place
      1.with
      2. in
      2. of time
      1.throughout
      2. during
      3: of means
      1. by
      2. by the means of
    2.  through
      1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
         1. by reason of
         2. on account of
      3. because of for this reason
      4. therefore
      4. on this account

     

    #942565
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Clarification, I do not believe that Christ “came from below”.  Christ came directly FROM YHVH, directly thus FROM HEAVEN and such was a fulfilled promise spoken by the prophets that was YHVH’s WORD before the world began. 

    Me

    CHRIST IS BEFORE ALL THINGS AND THEREFORE BEFORE THE PROHETS WHO ANNOUNCED HIS COMING “BEING IN THE FLESH”

    🙏

     

    #942570
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Jodi

    I am prepared to stand corrected and I am on this forum to test my understanding with those of others and see who is providing the best scriptural support to their belief. The best scriptural support is going to be the closest to the truth,

    Hi.

    How do you deal with this scripture without writing an essay and skirting the issue?

    John 6:62
    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

    #942571
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There are some of you who are offended and do not believe

    Also notice that this all takes place in the context of Jesus coming down from heaven. Read it for yourself.

    John 6:50-64

    50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

    52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

    53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

    60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

    61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”

    #942572
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: I am 46 years old and unlike you and others,

    my beliefs are not set in stone,

    as I put scripture above my own current understanding.

    Me: With every respect to you, Jodi,

    this is the appropriate SCRIPTURE by which you confirm what you said above,

    ONCE YOU UNDERSTAND IT! 

    HUMBLY SPEAKING, just to give you a glimpse of the TRUTH!

    IGNORE ENTIRELY THE LITERAL SENSE OF IT: Read it, please!

    Matthew 4:3 And the tempter coming said to him:

    If thou be the Son of God,

    command that these stones be made bread. 

    I am prepared to stand corrected and I am on this forum to test my understanding with those of others and see who is providing the best scriptural support to their belief.

    The best scriptural support is going to be the closest to the truth,

     

    Please and love in Jesus Christ

    #942573
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Clarification, ????

    I do not believe that Christ “came from below”. 

     Christ came directly FROM YHVH,

    directly thus FROM HEAVEN ?????????????????

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL Jodi:

    YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE YOU STAND!

    SIMPLY PUZZLED and CONFUSED! Read again Please:

    DIRECTLY FROM YHVH!

    directly thus FROM HEAVEN!

    DO YOU KNOW WHAT “DIRECTLY FROM”  SIGNIFIES?

    Now just read WHO ALSO CAME DIRECTLY FROM HEAVEN PLEASE:

    Rev.12:7And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: 8And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    9And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was CAST OUT UNTO THE EARTH, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:

    because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of the testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death. 12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you that dwell therein. Woe to the earth, and to the sea, because the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman, who brought forth the man child: 

    John8:23 And he said to them:

    You are from beneath,

    I am from above. You are of this world,

    I am not of this world. 

    You: directly thus FROM HEAVEN

    IT IS SIGNIFICANT THAT YOU USED BLOCK CAPITALS for the phrase” FROM HEAVEN” above, JodI!

    Now read what “FROM HEAVEN” SIGNIFIES!

    John3:31 He that cometh from above, is above all.……

    He that cometh from heaven, is ABOVE ALL.

    WHO IS ABOVE ALL  IN THAT PRECISE MOMENT JESUS CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN Jodi?

    THE FATHER, 

    THE SON,  OR

    BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON!

    John10: 30 I and the Father are one.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #942576
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Christ, the anointed Jesus of Nazareth who shed his blood but was resurrected from the dead is before all things and in him all things consist.

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the BEGINNING, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (to be first). 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    Berean, I would argue that you are denying that Paul immediately explains “he is before all things” and “by him all things consist”. Such doesn’t fit with your doctrine though so you’d rather pull verse 17 out of context, denying flat out the very meaning that is directly given.

    As said, the ENTIRE context of chapter 1 of Colossians is speaking to HE WHO SHED HIS BLOOD AND BECAME THE BEGINNING, not of a world of sin, death and destruction, but that of righteousness, eternal life and forever peace, which we are promised to receive, which was God’s WORD, His PURPOSE all along. 

    5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

    12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    He who shed his blood is the BEGINNING, the beginning of that which God purposed all along, and as he sits at God’s right hand just as had been promised unto the Son of Man, he exists in the image of God and he is a firstborn overall of the creation that is laid up for us in heaven. This Son of Man, this firstborn existing in the image of God, is returning in the glory of the Father where we will be translated into his kingdom, the kingdom of the Son, where we will be made Sons of God being led by the Spirit of God in all our ways as he is. God will be ALL IN ALL just as God had purposed all along, born of God where His seed remains in us, born of the Spirit being of all goodness, righteousness and truth. 

    There is ONLY ONE Creation being spoken of in Colossians 1, but that doesn’t fit your doctrine though, so you pull verse 15 out of context. Can you even bring yourself to actually read through the chapter of Colossians 1, let alone spend some time thinking about what is really being taught by it’s contents?

    #942577
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

     

    I start from verse 12

     

    Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    [13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 

    [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    👇

    Paul then SAYS why WE CAN HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

    BECAUSE BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED ….(see v. 16-17)

    In other words CHRIST ORIGINALLY HAD TO BE OUR CREATOR IN ORDER TO BE OUR REDEEMER

     

     

    👉  For 👈

    👉 by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  👈

    👇

    Then, Paul continues on the theme of the redemption of the church by Christ HIS Head…etc…

    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    [19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
    [20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
    [21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    [24] Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
    [25] Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    [26] Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    [27] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;

    which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 

    [28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
    [29] Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

     

    CONCLUSION

    👉ONLY A CHRIST CREATOR OF ALL THINGS CAN BE OUR REDEEMER.👈

    IT’S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

    🙏

    #942578
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU: How do you deal with this scripture without writing an essay and skirting the issue?

    John 6:62
    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

    Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

    ME: Jesus is speaking about his resurrection, him being raised up, where leading up to verse 62 he is preaching about eternal life and him raising up others, which we know comes through remission of sins by the shedding of his blood. We then read of betrayal by Judas which leads to his death, his resurrection and him being raised up, ascending to where he was before where then many were a witness to him having been raised up. 

    John 6

    27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
    70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

    Immediately after Jesus speaks of ascending up where he was before he speaks of how the Spirit quickens. 

    We also read,

    John 5:21 For as the Father RAISETH UP the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that RAISED UP Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

     

    #942579
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    [13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    👇

    Paul then SAYS why WE CAN HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

    BECAUSE BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED ….(see v. 16-17)

    In other words CHRIST ORIGINALLY HAD TO BE OUR CREATOR IN ORDER TO BE OUR REDEEMER

    ME: Our Creator is definitely our redeemer that is true, but it is our one true God YHVH our heavenly Father who is our Creator, who had made earth and man by Himself all ALONE and He is our redeemer through having anointed/set-apart Jesus of Nazareth with His Spirit.

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Once again we have direct scripture that shows that it is biblically impossible, a direct lie against the clear word of YHVH our God, to say that Jesus was our Creator.

    The anointed Jesus is the promised prophet. He is a messenger and servant unto YHVH who created all things BY HIMSELF and who “confirmeth the word of His servant, and performeth the counsel of His messengers”.

    Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

     

     

    #942599
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    PLEASE READ ALL carefully

     COLOSSIANS

    👉For 
    👉 by him👈 (JESUS)were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created👉 by him, 👈and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.    

    👇

    1COR.6:8

    But to us there is but one God, the Father,

    👉 of whom are all things, 👈

    and we in him; 

    and one Lord Jesus Christ,👉 by whom 👈are all things,  and we by him.   

     

    Hebrews 1 

    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, 👉by whom 👈also he made the worlds;

    👇👇👇👇👇👇👇

    FROM:
    https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/48964/translation-of-the-greek-prepositions-en-and-dia

    “Dia” means “through” when used with a genitive noun and “because of” or “on account of” when used with an accusative noun.

    In Colossians 1:16, it is used with a genitive noun which is why it’s translated as “through” instead of “because of”

    For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through (dia) Him (autou) and for Him. (NKJV)

    “Autou” is the genitive form (note the “u” ending) while “auton” would have been the accusative form (note the “n” ending).

    The same is true of 1 Corinthians 8:6

    yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through (dia) whom (hou) are all things, and through (dia) whom (autou) we live. (NKJV)

    hou is the genitive form of “hos” meaning “who.”

    The same is once again true of Hebrews 1:2

    has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through (dia) whom (ou) also He made the worlds (NKJV)

    Once again, “dia” is used with a genitive “ou.”

    🙏

    #942624
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: “Dia” means “through” when used with a genitive noun and “because of” or “on account of” when used with an accusative noun.

    ME: I read through your post and studied further genitive and accusative as well as the different autos and I am not seeing anything at all that discredits my position.

    Furthermore, “dia” means “through”, that’s correct, but “through” itself can mean “by means of” or “by reason of” so you aren’t making any sense.

    all thing were created dia (by reason of) Jesus and for Jesus. As said, “by means of” makes Isaiah into a lying false prophet.

     

    #942625
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    16 For by reason of him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by reason of him, and for him:

    Jesus didn’t MAKE himself lord nor MAKE himself a king of kings, YHVH our Father did, so it’s nonsense to insist that “dia” means “by means of” in verse 16.

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Psalms 89:27 Also I WILL MAKE him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

    To be technical, all things are created by means of YHVH our Father’s Spirit, whether that be YHVH Himself using His Spirit to make things or YHVH using His Spirit in the anointed Jesus to make things.  This is why Jesus says he can do nothing of himself and why he gives all credit to God. God’s Spirit is in Jesus and God is directing Jesus with what to do. YHVH even used His Spirit with Moses to make the river into blood and to make the sea part.

    When it comes to the creating of heaven and earth and man in the beginning we are directly told that YHVH did so by Himself that He did so ALONE. We are told by Jeremiah it was His power, His Wisdom, His discretion and the utterance of His voice. When the Son of Man, our anointed Jesus, returns in our Father’s glory,  he will fulfill God’s will making peace on earth, where he does so through God’s Spirit upon him and by God directing all his ways.

     

    #942650
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……..It’seems not about the truth to them, it about their false religious ideas, their not even intellegent enough to understand  that what they say is completely again what scriptures in the old Testement says, they create complete contradictions, in our scriptures, And don’t even know  they are.

    But the the true way like we are explaining scriptures,  does not cause contradictions of any scriptures.

    They are simply the blind leading the blind, stumbling over themselves constantly, never coming to understand the real truth. SAD!

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene

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