John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,761 through 23,780 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942690
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….Jesus said (not me)…..“this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU”,  the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD, and Jesus Christ who you have sent”. 

    And again scriptures says (not me) …….“but unto us there is but “ONE” God, and one “MEDIATOR”,  between God and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ”. 

    And again scripture says (not me) …..“GOD IS NOT A “MAN”, that he should lie, nor a “SON OF MAN”, that he should repent”. 

    And again Jesus said (not me)…….“the Son of Man,  can do “NOTHING” of himself”.

    And again Jesus said (not me)…….“the words I am telling you are “NOT”, MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.   

    Question is do you “TRULY”  believe what Jesus AND SCRIPTURE says? , facts is you don’t believe Jesus,   nor scripture, nor God the Father either.

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #942691
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    What does that have to do with what I was telling you before?

    #942693
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Our understanding of Micah 5:2 is quite different. This passage for you is evidence to the “preexistence” of Christ. What it actually speaks of is a ruler who’s origins were foreknown from the beginning.

    The Aramaic translation puts this verse in another perspective:

    And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you are little among the thousands of towns of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth a ruler to govern Israel; whose goings forth have been predicted from of old, from eternity.

    The “goings forth” means origins and some translations render it this way. You say this is a forward looking backward, when it is actually pointing to the future. The “origins” have been predicted (prophesied?) from old, the “origins” are from eternity/everlasting (from God – Habakkuk 1:12).

    If Christ preexisted, please explain I Pet 1:19-20:

    19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Christ; 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of times for your sake,

    Peter didn’t say Christ existed, he says Christ was foreknown; the Greek foreknow is proginōskō (Strong’s G4267) and is the combination of two words from (4253) /pró, “before” and (1097) /ginṓskō, “to know” and used in the NT of “God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining them”.

    This same foreknowing is in Rom 8:26: God foreknew those called according to his purpose and who would conform to the image of his Son. So did everyone preexist in heaven with God that he foreknew?

    Did Jeremiah preexist in heaven (Jer 1:4-5) because God knew him before he was formed in the womb? Of course not! This “foreknowing” of God is his “pre-known” plan. So why wouldn’t we apply this same understanding to Christ? Christ was part of God’s perfect plan from the foundations of the world as Peter states, not that he preexisted with God.

    #942695
    Berean
    Participant

    @desirethruth

    You

    The “goings forth” means origins and some translations render it this way. You say this is a forward looking backward, when it is actually pointing to the future.

    Me

    The Micah’s Prophecy

    show two things

    1) an event that will come after the time of Prophet Micah…..👉
    the birth of the Son of God in the flesh 👉
    ….”yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;”

    2) an event that took place in eternity
    past 👈

    whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 👈

    Hebrews 1:
    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
    [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    It refers to the begetting of the Son by the Father.

    This also applies to the resurrection of the Son, quoted in Acts.

     

    1Peter1:19-20

    I do not rely on these verses for the origin of Jesus but on Micah, John 1, Hebrews 1, Colossians1, Philippians 2

    Peter tells us simply that the Father had predestined his Son to be the Lamb of God who would offer himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.

    We believe the Son was willing all along and offered himself when Adam and Eve sinned.
    Without this offering / intervention of the Son with our first parents, they would have died the same day. We see the Son already there as mediator between GOD the Father and men.
    We believe it was the Son instead of God who spoke to our first parents in the Garden of Eden and made them garments of skins, signifying physical and spiritual protection.
    Well, I won’t say more for now…

    Good study under the gaze of God.

    🙏

    #942702
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    So you are explicitly disregarding the verse in I Peter because it doesn’t agree with your theology? Perplexed how one can ignore what “foreknown/foreordain” means, especially when it comes from a disciple that Christ walked, talked, and taught for 3.5 years? You say the Jewish understanding is a must, but I’m starting to think it really isn’t as important to you as you claim.

    You quote Heb 1:5 as evidence to preexisting Christ, then why the future tense “will be” and “shall be” if Christ was already in heaven? Shouldn’t it read “I am” and “you are”?

    The chapters you sited, please include verses so we are on the same page…not going to guess.

    By the way, I too am waiting for you to answer my questions from the earlier post. Will you extend the same courtesy? Please scripturally support Jesus is our creator and “had” to be “in order” to be our redeemer.

    #942703
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DesireTruth

    So you are explicitly disregarding the verse in I Peter because it doesn’t agree with your theology?

    Me

    No  why???

    The Father predestined his Son when he was not yet BEGOTTEN in HEAVEN. What I also believe is that the Son OFFERED HIMSELF as a sacrifice for sin.
    The Father did not force His Son’s agency. It is a freewill offering of the Son.
    Can you admit this?

    While I write in French and go through Google translate, the translation may not always be “great” and it takes me longer.

    More latter

    🙏

     

     

    #942704
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Philippians 2

    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature, God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!

    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    #942706
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There is a lot in scripture to explain away. But some here do that anyway. You can understand that some scriptures are difficult as they may have a cultural meaning for example. But this theme that these scriptures teach is prolific. Explaining it all away seems tantamount to saying the New Testament is just plain wrong.

    John 1
    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ 

    John 8:58
    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Revelation 19:13
    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    Colossians 1:15-18
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Revelation 22:16
    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    #942708
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You said, “I do not rely on these verses for the origins of Jesus…” Even though it states in virtually every translation Christ was “foreknown”, “foreordained”, or “before known”. By rejecting the content of these verses and the meaning of foreknown, it would mean those in Rom 8:26 all existed in heaven before beginning this life on Earth too. I will wager you will reject that understanding; yet, will apply it to Christ.
    Still waiting for scripture on Jesus being our creator to be our redeemer.

    @ Proclaimer,
    Thank you!! This list of verses is what I was looking for. Now we have a basis to start from to see if Christ preexisted or not. One thing must be pointed out with your verses, they are all new testament; where are the old testament verses? Micah is one verse, shouldn’t there be at least two or three “witnesses” to bring a “claim”. If Christ preexisted, the old testament will be filled with references to that fact. Remember, the “new testament” didn’t exist for about 300 years after the early church.

    To all,
    Do a word study on “son of man”. Begin in the old testament and go through the new; don’t make it a long study (it’s not), but it is an enlightening one. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!

    #942709
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire truth…….Welcome to my and Jodi’s world,  These people haven’t a clue what scriptures actually say, they rely on the lies of modern “christanity” inturpitations and conform to the Prophesy of Paul, in “2ths2”,    they have turned the “man” Jesus into their God .  Just as Pual said they would,  they have turned the “image” of him into a man of sin,  by breaking the first commandment   “you shall have no God beside me, you shall not make any “image ” of me in heaven above or earth beneath”.

    They bow and worship him as their creator, making him into a God , creating, “a man of Sin”  

    Jesus is the “ONLY “MAN” who has taken his seat in the temple of God so far , and they have turned him into their God,  By saying he created everything in existence.

    They have rejected nearly all scriptures in the Old Testement,   and established the false religion of the Greek Platonic idololigies ,  they are idolaters, and will be rejected not only by God the Father, but by Jesus himself at his return, just as “2 ths2”, says.  It’s all there for those who have “eyes to see”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours, Desire Truth………. gene

    #942712
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    Love your “word study” idea! I will do that!

    #942714
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Micah is one verse, shouldn’t there be at least two or three “witnesses” to bring a “claim”. If Christ preexisted, the old testament will be filled with references to that fact.

    Interesting thought. Does this mean we reject the New Testament? I don’t think you are saying that. But rejecting these scriptures is tantamount to doing that. I believe in the firstborn Son who was with God before the cosmos precisely because I believe these New Testament scriptures.

    So how do we explain the lack of this information in the Old Testament? Because the New Testament is new compared to the Old. It contains further revelation. It reveals the Christ. Some things in the New were mysteries before the New. Case in hand:

    The “mystery of Christ” pertains specifically to the incorporation of the Gentiles as “co-heirs” alongside the Jews. This concept is referred to as a mystery because it was not revealed to humanity in past eras, it was concealed by God, and remained a secret, but was unveiled. Further, we also read that God sent his only begotten into the world. The one that God created the cosmos through and for. It reveals that he emptied himself, came in the flesh, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is now with God in the glory he had with him before the cosmos.

    What we read is God paying the highest price for our redemption by sacrificing the same one whom he made everything for in the beginning.

    All this is a huge jump in revelation compared to the Old Testament. For such reasons and others, some reject the New Testament.

    But I think the plan of God to save mankind is wonderful. This plan was hatched even before there was a cosmos. I guess that God knew that eventually free will would give rise to a rebellion. An inevitability given eternity.

    #942716
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene  

    You

    They have rejected nearly all scriptures in the Old Testement,   and established the false religion of the Greek Platonic idololigies ,  they are idolaters, and will be rejected not only by God the Father, but by Jesus himself at his return, just as “2 ths2”, says.  It’s all there for those who have “eyes to see”.  

    Me

    You have not PROVED ONCE BY THE WORD OF GOD WHAT YOU AFFIRM THERE.
    SO PLEASE KEEP SILENCE BEFORE THE ETERNAL YAHVEH AND TRY TO LEARN WHAT GOD HAS BEEN TRYING FOR YOU TO DISCOVER FOR A LONG TIME THROUGH ADMITTED IMPERFECT INSTRUMENTS.

    🙏

    #942718
    Berean
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You

    You said, “I do not rely on these verses for the origins of Jesus…” Even though it states in virtually every translation Christ was “foreknown”, “foreordained”, or “before known”. By rejecting the content of these verses and the meaning of foreknown, it would mean those in Rom 8:26 all existed in heaven before beginning this life on Earth too. I will wager you will reject that understanding; yet, will apply it to Christ.
    Still waiting for scripture on Jesus being our creator to be our redeemer. 

     

    Me

    I know Jesus was predestined and I believe what Pierre says about it. Being predestined does not exclude the fact in the case of Jesus that he existed before the foundation of the world, in Eternity Past when there was nothing to count time.

    <span style=”color: #3366ff;”>And now, o father, gliffy thou me with thine own self 👉with the glory that i had with thee before the world was.👈 (John 17: 5)</span>

    ……..

    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    foreordained

    from pro -pro 4253 and ginwskw -ginosko 1097 ; to know beforehand, ie foresee:–foreknow (ordain), know (before).

     

    ….

     

    So God has always planned that his divine Son would be intended to be the savior of the world in our flesh.
    Also, the fact that Jesus went down from heaven (John 6:38) where he was in glory with the Father since the beginning (John1: 1 and John 17: 5) who sent him to make his will (of the Father ) proves that he is not of this world and that he has pre -existed at Heaven with the Father.
    John 1: 1 -3 tells us that at the beginning, “The Word” (the Son) was with (The) God, he was God and that everything was done by him and that nothing that was done is was done without him.

    A point that I was going to forget, it’s proverb 8

    This is the second witnesses for the eternity of the Son.

    The Lord Possessed Me in the Beginning of His Way, Before 👈 His Works of Old.

    [23] I was set up
    from 👉everlasting👈,

    From the Beginning, or Ever (Before) The Earth was.

    [24] when👉 there we no depths👈,

    👉 I was Busht Forth👈;

    👉When there we no fountains Abounding with water. …
    ….

    Without this condition (let him be God, that is to say having all the divine attributes whose omnipotence) he could not be the Savior of the world.

    In fact, the father put everything in the hands of his only begotten son .
    CREATION
    REDEMPTION
    JUDGEMENT

    Do we not like to save, restore what we create or do with our hands … Yes?

    This is what the father did for us by his Son  and that he continues to do

    👉Till We All Come in the Unity of the Faith, and of the Knowledge of the Son of God, Unto A Perfect Man, Unto the Measure of the Stature of the Fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:13)

    And it is he who will

    And the very God of Peace Sanctify you wholly; And I Pray God your Whole Spirit and Soul and Body be Preserved Blameless Unto The Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
    .
    Faithful is he that caleth you, who also will do it. (1Thess.5: 22.23

    🙏

     

     

    🙏

     

     

    #942719
    Berean
    Participant

    Correction

    This IS NOT  I was Busht Forth ;

    But When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water./Proverbs 8v.24/

    #942720
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    This is the second witnesses for the eternity of the Son.

    The Lord Possessed Me in the Beginning of His Way, Before   His Works of Old.

    [23] I was set up
    from  everlasting ,

    From the Beginning, or Ever (Before) The Earth was.

    [24] when  there we no depths ,

    I was Busht Forth ;

    When there we no fountains Abounding with water. …

    Wouldn’t that be a better description for being the first to be with God as opposed to always existing with God? Somebody had to be first right? Who was that? Someone very special I imagine. Perhaps the most special besides God himself.

    #942722
    Berean
    Participant

    Wouldn’t that be a better description for being the first to be with God as opposed to always existing with God? Somebody had to be first right? Who was that? Someone very special I imagine. Perhaps the most special besides God himself.

     

    God, to my knowledge, has no origin, He has always existed and will always exist because he is immortal according to Paul a Timothy / 1 Tim.6.16

    The Son of God has an origin

    In the BIGINNING, the Son who was with God and who was God, of the same nature as the Father, therefore has a nature that is beginningless, but had a beginning when he was begotten of the Father in the days of eternity.
    Therefore a divine nature, eternal essence, without beginning inherited from the Father but a person, personality which had a beginning during the begetting by the Father.
    And so, of course, the Son, in the days of eternity, not being a creature, is the only and first to be with God.

    Paul to the COLOSSIANS tells us 👉 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    I understand him, the first born in Heaven in the days of eternity before all things and living beings were created.

    ….all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    🙏

    #942723
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Wisdom is not a person, it is an “ATRIBUTE” ,  one of the seven  Spirits, of God,  trying to make it out to be Jesus is simply forcing the text to say what in fact it does not say or even hint at.  

    This is what you are doing with many other scriptures also, like thinking when Jesus said,  “before”  Abraham, I am,  as meaning that Jesus was saying that he “existed”,  as a live being before Abraham “existed”.  Simply not true, Jesus did not exist as a actual “living” being until he was born on this earth ,  even though he was Prophesied by The prophets to come into his existence. He was in the beginning in the plan and will of ALMIGHTY GOD, from the start of his whole creation of this earth and everything in it.

    Your inability to understand this, only proves to me, you lack of the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH”.  abiding in you, or you would know this. 

    You have three bearing true witness here right now, listen to us, at least consider what we are telling you and others here.

    Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer. ……….gene

    #942734
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, I think you have never grasped that people are named after attributes.

    Sons of Thunder.

    Light Bearer,

    The Word of God.

    The Truth.

    Etc.

    #942735
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    In the BIGINNING, the Son who was with God and who was God, of the same nature as the Father, therefore has a nature that is beginningless, but had a beginning when he was begotten of the Father in the days of eternity.
    Therefore a divine nature, eternal essence, without beginning inherited from the Father but a person, personality which had a beginning during the begetting by the Father.
    And so, of course, the Son, in the days of eternity, not being a creature, is the only and first to be with God.

    This is pretty much my view too. Although, capitalizing God is how we deal with the definite article in Greek (The Theos = God). But John 1:1c doesn’t have a definite article when talking of the Logos. This is why some translations say ‘The Word was divine”. That is, ‘god’ as in The God’s nature, just like ‘man’ as in the nature of Adam (The Man).

    To summarize, Eve was adam, but not Adam. This is not a contradiction. It is correct.

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