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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • February 23, 2023 at 6:47 pm#942476
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    I confirm that all the biblical texts proving the preexistence and the divinity of Christ have been given for a long time.
    It is a matter of faith in the true text of the Holy Bible.

    🙏

    February 23, 2023 at 7:24 pm#942477
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    KJ says,

    Isaiah 45,

    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness:I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Can you please speak directly to these passages?

    Jesus is NOT the Creator according to King James, he is the one of prophecy that our Creator called to righteousness and made into a light. We are directly given that this Creator by HIMSELF formed the earth and made it, it is He that forms the light. To turn and say that the man of the prophecy made into a LIGHT by the Creator actually pre-exited as the Creator, is just utterly deplorable.

    You really need to explain yourself.

    February 23, 2023 at 7:24 pm#942478
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    I’m going to go back to when I spoke earlier about the possibility of God speaking to the angels at creation.

    Is it true, most, if not all, the writings of the scripture where written by Jews? So, should we interpret the scriptures from a Hebraic understanding or use our modern English for understanding? Does our understanding today override the understanding of the Jewish writer?

    Gen 1:26 isn’t the only place where God uses this plural of “us” and “our”:
    Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, “Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil”
    Gen 11:7 “Come, let’s (let us) go down and confuse their language…”
    Isa 6:8 I heard the voice of the sovereign master say, “Whom will I send? Who will go on our behalf?”

    You have rejected the “us” and “our” being angels God was speaking to in favor of there being a preexistent Jesus. Is it possible the angels were also created with the same characteristics men have, thus having the same “likeness” and “image”? Many times when angels interact with man they have the same physical characteristics. Don’t the angels possess moral, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional qualities just as man does?

    Gen 18 the three men Abraham ran to meet. Looked like men
    Gen 19 Lot when the angels came to Sodom. Looked like men
    I Pet 1:12 with the proclaiming of the gospel, “…things angels long to catch a glimpse of.”
    Luke 20:36 angels do not die. Something we get to look forward to in our new bodies.
    Luke 15:10 “…there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Don’t we “rejoice” over a “new believer”?
    Luke 1:13 a multitude of the heavenly host were praising God. Aren’t we to praise God too?
    In Job 1, didn’t the angels present themselves before God, including Lucifer?

    While scripture specifically states we are created in God’s image; wouldn’t it be possible this same image and likeness that we have, are also present in angels? After all, angels and man have the same creator – God.

    Is this understanding incorrect? If so, explain.

    February 23, 2023 at 8:45 pm#942479
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and Gene,

    Me:  Answer,

    If as you, Jodi WELL said that

     This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him

    an eternal kingdom,

    HOW IS IT THAT THIS SUPPOSED ETERNAL KINGDOM PROMISED BY THE FATHER TO HIS SON,

    THIS SON OF MAN,

    WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, John 3:13

    AT THE VERY END IS GIVEN TO GOD,  TO BE
    ALL  IN ALL FOR ETERNITY?
    WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS SON OF MAN THEN, Jodi?

    WHERE WOULD THIS SON OF MAN, while God would be all in all,

    ENDS UP?

    HE DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL THRONE NO?

    AS ETERNAL KING! AGAIN, OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL KINGDOM?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    February 24, 2023 at 3:58 am#942504
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth. …….What I believe God was speaking to,  was the “Seven Spirits of God “,  these seven .spirits are what I believe God sends out into all his Kingdom , to perform his will in all his creation. We are told Theses Seven Spirits gobefore his throne and go out into the earth to perform the will of God, in all his holy creation.  Not trying to preach this as dogma, but offing it as a possibility.  

    Another thing to consider is that,  we become more like God when he gives us of his Spirit, Scripture shows that  Jesus had the full measure of God’s spirits,  as Jodi has brought out many times.  Just offering this for descusion.

    Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth. …………gene

    February 24, 2023 at 4:13 am#942505
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth

    You

    I’m going to go back to when I talked earlier about the possibility of God speaking to angels at creation.

    Me
    Angels have nothing to do with the creation of the heavens and the earth. Sorry, even though they are very powerful, they are not ALL POWERFUL.

    The text says:
    Let’s do the man….
    Did the angels participate in the creation of man?

    On the other hand, THE ONE WHO JOHN CALLS “THE WORD” HAS INHERITED THE POWER TO CREATE.
    SO WHY REJECT THE FACT THAT THE FATHER TALKS TO HIS SON?

    Is it true that most, if not all, of the writings of Scripture were written by Jews? So should we interpret the scriptures from a Hebrew understanding or use our modern English to understand? Does our understanding today outweigh the understanding of the Jewish writer?

    Me

    There are bibles more reliable than others, and I invite you to read the book by H.H.MEYERS
    THE BATTLE OF THE BIBLES
    that I post on Heavennet.net

    But you can read it directly if you want it at this address:

    https://temcat.com/005-Bible-versions/Bible-Battle/BATTLE%20OF%20THE%20BIBLES-E-All.pdf

    Discovering the thought of the Jewish writer is of course essential.
    Personally, I don’t know ancient Hebrew.
    Greek, we can with the various dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, manage to manage to understand the main part of the text.

     

    Gen 1:26 is not the only place where God uses this plural of “we” and “our”:
    Gen 3:22 “And the LORD God said, Now that man is become as one of us, knowing good and evil”
    Gen 11:7 “Come, let us go down and confuse their tongues…”
    Isa 6:8 I heard the voice of the sovereign master say: “Whom shall I send? Who will go in our name?

    You rejected the “us” and “our” being of the angels God was speaking to in favor of the existence of a pre-existent Jesus.

    Me

    I gave you the reasons

    I repeat the thing: In this passage, the purpose of GOD is to create man
    Let us mâle  man….
    will the angels take part in the creation of man?
    Of course not

    Be spectators, maybe.

    Is it possible that angels were also created with the same characteristics as men, thus having the same “likeness” and “image”? Often when angels interact with humans, they have the same physical characteristics. Do not angels possess moral, spiritual, intellectual and emotional qualities just like man?

    Gen 18 the three men Abraham ran to meet. Looked like men
    Gen 19 Lot when the angels came to Sodom. Looked like men
    I Pet 1:12 with the proclamation of the gospel, “…things which the angels desire to see.”
    Luke 20:36 angels do not die. Something we look forward to in our new bodies. Luke 15:10 “…there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Don’t we “rejoice” in a “new believer”?

    Luke 1:13 a multitude of the heavenly host were praising God. Shouldn’t we also praise God?
    In Job 1, didn’t the angels come before God, including Lucifer?

    While scripture specifically states that we are created in the image of God; wouldn’t it be possible that this same image and likeness that we have is also present in the angels? After all, angels and man have the same creator – God.

    Is this understanding incorrect? If yes, explain.

    Me

    I have never read in the Bible that angels were created in the image and likeness of God.

    What I do know is that man was created a little lower than angels.

    psalms 8
    [4] What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?
    [5] For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    As for the mission of the angels, it is specified in Hebrews 1:14
    Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

     

    February 24, 2023 at 4:57 am#942507
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Gene,

    Not familiar with the “seven spirits of God” teaching as you have summarized; please provide a little more background (ie scripture references). I don’t need a book explanation, just pointed in the “right” direction so I know where to begin the study. I do my own research so as not to cloud my thinking or have doctrinal bias implanted.

    Thanks

    February 24, 2023 at 5:50 am#942508
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    My understanding I believe is similar if not the same as Gene’s.

    The “us” represents His Spirit(s). I first thought as well as you did that He might have been talking about the angels, but in reading that God says that He created earth and man upon it by Himself I realized that then didn’t fit.

    I think it’s interesting that it’s reiterated directly after, that it was God himself that made man and did so in His image.

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    We know according to Paul that we were predestined to be made into the image of the Son and Paul gives us directly that image when he says that those who are Led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and that the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God, heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ.

    We also know that Jesus said that we would be baptized with the baptism he received and would drink of the one cup of the One Spirit as he does. We read in Isaiah 11 that Jesus received the Spirit, the Spirit of Wisdom, the Spirit of Understanding, ..the Spirit of Knowledge and Reverence/Faith for God. Then we read in 1 Cor 12, “But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;”

    To me it then becomes clear why we read the “us” and the “our” in the making of man and then again we read that it was God Himself and His image. The image of God is His Spirit and we are given that such includes several Spirits therein, Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Faith and we also know from Galatians 5 that His Spirit is also the source of love, kindness, self-control, patience, etc..

    February 24, 2023 at 6:52 am#942509
    Berean
    Participant

    You

    Hi Berean,

    KJ says,

    Isaiah 45,

    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    18 For thus knows the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Can you please speak directly to these passages?

    Jesus is NOT the Creator according to King James, he is the one of prophecy that our Creator called to righteousness and made into a light. We are directly given that this Creator by HIMSELF formed the earth and made it, it is He that forms the light.

    To turn and say that the man of the prophecy made into a LIGHT by the Creator actually pre-exited as the Creator, is just utterly deplorable.

    You really need to explain yourself.

    Me

    You jump to conclusions too quickly.

    IT IS WRITTEN IN ISAIAH 45 THIS THIS IS OK

    BUT IT IS 👉 ALSO WRITTEN 👈 IN COLOSSIANS 2 ABOUT JESUS

    all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    So how do we reconcile these verses with each other?

    Honestly I was sometimes perplexed, but the Bible cannot contradict itself BUT ONLY COMPLETE ITSELF.

    THE REVELATION OF THE THINGS OF GOD IS PROGRESSIVE.
    THIS IS WHY, ONE SHOULD NOT DRAW TOO QUICK CONCLUSIONS CONCERNING THE OLD TESTAMENT.

    THE NEW TESTAMENT IS HERE TO ILLUMINATE THE OLD.
    JUST AS THE SUN IS THE SOURCE OF LIGHT FOR THE MOON, SO THE NEW TESTAMENT IS THE SOURCE OF LIGHT THAT ILLUMINATES THE OLD TESTAMENT BECAUSE OF CHRIST WHO IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD:

    👉Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.(John 8:12)

    THE MOON IS THE OLD TESTAMENT, THE SUN IS THE NEW TESTAMENT

    LOOK IN REVELATION 12

    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with THE SUN, and THE MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    :
    [2] And she being with child cried, laboring in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    a woman: it is the symbol of the people of God
    especially when Jesus is about to be born…and in the time of the apostles

    clothed with the SUN …

    But for you who fear my name will rise the sun of justice with healing under its wings;
    Job 29:14
    I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

    It is this church of the apostles clothed with the righteousness of Christ that is symbolized here

    and the moon under her feet

    the moon here is the symbol of the economy of the old testament.
    The fact is that the moon is under his feet means that the time of the old covenant is over.

    and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    The stars symbolize the 12 apostles the foundations of the new covenant of GOD and Christ.

    Rev.12:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THIS
    THE 12 APOSTLES OF JESUS ARE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE NEW JERUSALEM (WIFE OF CHRIST)

    👇
    Rev.21 ….[9]Come hither, I will show you THE BRIDE, THE LAMB’S WIFE.

    [ 10 ] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me THAT GREAT CITY, HOLY JÉRUSALEM, coming down out of heaven from God, [ 11 ]

    having the glory of God, and his light was as to a most precious stone, even as a stone of jasper, clear as crystal;

    The seven stars are the angels(messengers) of the seven churches:(Rev.1:20)

    THEREFORE THE 12 APOSTLES OF THE LAMB ARE THE FOUNDATION OF CHRIST’S WIFE, HIS FAITHFUL CHURCH.

    BUT THE 12 PATRIARCHS (12 tribes of the children of Israel: ) SYMBOLIZE THE OLD COVENANT THEY ARE THE DOORS OF SOME KIND TO THE WIFE OF CHRIST (THE CHURCH OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

    👉 Rev.21 [12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAËL.

    MY SHEMATIZED CONCLUSION TODAY IS THAT ACCORDING TO HIS TEXTS:
    WE ENTER THE CHURCH OF CHRIST THROUGH THE GATES OF THE REVELATIONS OF GOD BY THE PATRIARCHS AND PROPHETS MADE UNDER THE OLD COVENANT (THE MOON)

    AND
    WE ARE FOUNDED SURELY ON THE FOUNDATION OF THE APOSTLES.(THE NEW COVENANT)

    And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;(Eph.2:20)
    LANGUAGES.

    Ephesians 3:5
    It was not manifested to the sons of men in other generations, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to the holy apostles and prophets of Christ.

    1 Corinthians 3:11
    For no man can lay any other foundation than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    All this being said,
    We can affirm that God our Father is THE CREATOR AND SOURCE of all things and he achieved his creation and re-creation THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND FOR JESUS CHRIST.

    PAUL ASSURES US:

    all things were created BY HIM, and FOR HIM:
    [17] And he is BEFORE ALL THINGS, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. 

    🙏

     

    February 24, 2023 at 7:25 am#942510
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    I want to point out that it is ONLY in the making of man into the image of God that we see an “us” and an “our”.

    14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    when it comes to the making of man,

    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Jesus said, 

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    There is actually a lot that Jesus says in this chapter, he speaks about people entering into the Kingdom of THE God who had made them male and female.

    15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

    17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

    Jesus identifies that God is ONE, that he is NOT God, that only God is good and this God in the beginning made them male and female. It’s not possible given scripture to say Jesus represents the “us” in Genesis 1:26.

    To turn and say Jesus made man and made them male and female is a direct lie against scripture.

    30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

    37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

    45 For even the Son of man CAME not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

    47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. …12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that CAME down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    So much is given in these passages that I could then align with so many others. 

    JESUS IS NOT GOD.

    Jesus did not make man in the beginning, God did by His own word. 

    The Son of Man CAME from God according to God’s promise which was God’s word from the beginning. As the Son of Man CAME FROM GOD, we know why then Jesus would say speaking of himself, that the Son of Man came down from heaven.

    The Son of Man Jesus was born of water and of the Spirit, and Jesus teaches speaking God’s word, that such must occur  in order for man to enter God’s kingdom. This aligns perfectly with 1 Chronicle 17 where God promised to be a Father unto David’s son and settle him into His kingdom. 

    I could make more points about what these passages teach, but I will jut leave it at that for now.

    February 24, 2023 at 7:59 am#942511
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    John.1
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

     

    .🙏

    February 24, 2023 at 4:12 pm#942516
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Your assumption is the angels where involved in the physical act of creation – not at all what I said or implied. I am merely stating God spoke with them as he did in Job when the angels presented themselves. This experience in Job can’t possibly be the only time the angels present themselves before God, I would be safe in saying this presenting of themselves to God happens often. Thus God communicates with his created angels on a “regular basis”. God’s plan for man before he sinned.

    You: The text says:
    “Let’s do the man….”
    What?! You lost me on that.

    You: Discovering the thought of the Jewish writer is of course essential. Personally, I don’t know ancient Hebrew. Greek, we can with the various dictionaries, lexicons, concordances, manage to manage to understand the main part of the text.

    Interesting response, while you say understanding the thought of the Jewish writer is essential, you reject the Jewish understanding of God speaking to the angels. This “thought” wasn’t my own, this was discovering through writings of Jewish minds. I am baffled how today “scholars” embrace the philosophical Greek over Hebrew. Greek isn’t God’s language, Hebrew is; and the entire old testament is written in Hebrew. So there is NO excuse to not understand what was written and gain understanding from a Hebraic mindset when studying the old and applying to the new. I will say this again; to understand the new, one has to understand the old. If the new is the only side of the bible that matters, your study is in vain!

    I know neither Greek nor Hebrew, but as you mention there are aids to help study scripture. The unfortunate is the Greek study tools have taken precedence over the Hebrew, ever wonder why? If you’re wanting to dive into the Hebrew, Brown-Driver-Briggs is an excellent source of study and is part of blueletterbible and biblehub (two places I use to study word meanings in both Greek and Hebrew).

    You: I have never read in the Bible that angels were created in the image and likeness of God.

    To whom were the scriptures written, angels or men? We aren’t given any “history” of before creation other than it being a big nothingness, without form, and void. Concerning angels, we must rely on what scripture tell us about them and we are given glimpses of who the angels are, as sited in the verses previously written. What is found are similarities to man and man was created in God’s image, sooooo. The amazing thing about angels is they are fully obedient to God’s commands/words.

    One last thing on the “essentialness” of understanding the Jewish thought, can you find any scriptures in the old testament that state Christ preexisted with God?

    February 24, 2023 at 5:33 pm#942517
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth

    God WHO SAID:

    LET US MAKE MAN…

    DID NOT SPEAK TO ANGELS

    HE WAS TALKING TO HIS SON

    HIS SON WAS THE ONLY BY WHOM ALL THINGS WERE MADE 👉JOHN,1:3

    AND HIS SON WAS GOD IN THE BEGINNING,. AND HE WAS WITH THE GOD.

    GOD DID NOT CONSULT THE ANGELS TO CREATE MAN BUT HIS SON.

    ALL THE OTHER 5 DAYS OF CREATION HE WAS WITH THE GOD, THAT’S WHY ON THE SIXTH DAY, HE SAID LET’S MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE ACCORDING TO OUR LIKENESS (OF FATHER AND SON)

    THE OLD TESTAMENT PROCLAIMS THE MESSIAH WILL COME, THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT HE HAS COME AND WILL RETURN.

    BY PROPHET MICAH GOD HAS SPOKEN THIS: (5:2)

    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; 👉whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.👈

    This means that the origin of the Messiah dates back to the days of eternity.
    and SO THIS PROVES THAT THE MESSIAH WAS PRE-EXISTING.

    MOREOVER IT IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE OBLIGATION TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE TO START WITH THE OLD TESTAMENT,

    MANY PEOPLE STARTED WITH THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THEN WERE LEADED TO THE OLD…THERE IS NO RIGID RULES FOR THIS…THE BIBLE IS ONE WHOLE, IT IS GOD’S WORD.

    BY THE WAY, I HAVE BEEN A LONE MEMBER OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH FOR MORE THAN FORTY YEARS. AND I ADHERE TO THE DOCTRINES OF THE PIONEERS OF THIS SAME CHURCH.

    MAY GOD PROTECT YOU.

    February 24, 2023 at 9:04 pm#942519
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    This is one large merry-go-round; a circular trajectory we travel. Over the last year I have been on a quest of sorts wanting, seeking, and searching for scriptural truth. Took my questions to the pastors of the church only to be told I’m wrong and even told I needed to stop studying so much…what the what!?!? In this process I began questioning the validity of doctrines held by the church and that has taken me down more paths than I care to count and has left me with more questions than answers. The one thing that has remained consistent is everyone’s doctrine is correct and the other guys is wrong. How can everyone be right and wrong at the same time. Quite the paradox isn’t it?

    Not many truly dig into scripture today, they rely on pastors to tell them what the bible says. There’s a catch to self studying, any tool we use has been written by man and will contain a bias the writer leans to (the same with bible translations). Another paradox, what do you do? We are about 2000 years after the last book was written in the bible. How much has been lost in translation since then? History tells us that Constantine destroyed any writings that didn’t agree with what he decided was truth. How much truth was lost AND replaced in the process?

    Anything that I have written, isn’t to change people’s mind. It’s to get people to start thinking outside the box of their doctrine. I am firm in what I believe, because I can back it up with scripture. Does that mean my mind can’t be changed, NO! Show me the error in my thinking, but you must have scripture to back it up, not doctrine, not personal opinion. Don’t use “copy paste theology” either, use scripture in the context it was written.

    The other thing, STOP YELLING!! What is with the cap locks on when you write!? STOP!!!

    May God protect me, what does that mean!??!?!

    February 24, 2023 at 9:24 pm#942520
    Berean
    Participant

    Excuse me, I tend to write a lot in capital letters. It is surely a way of affirming more strongly what I believe. I know it can be annoying.
    I gave you Micah 5:2 which shows us that the Messiah originated in the days of eternity

    What do you think ?

    And yes, may God protect you.

    Don’t you think you NEED IT AS WELL AS ME AND ALL.
    DON’T OFFER YOURSELF.

    HI

    February 24, 2023 at 9:58 pm#942521
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Me, Back to your post for the sake of “THE WORD” and ITS TRUTH!

    You: Desire truth………Simple,

     you need to just believe what Jesus told us and you have your answer,  

    Jesus said  (not me)…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.  Simple as that, 

    YES, Gene, you have your answer NOW, after I replied immediately to your TWISTED SUPPOSED SCRIPTURE. I also had a reply immediately from you, do you what it is Gene, 

    SILENCE: AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    BY WHICH SILENCE, MY POST ENDED UP

    THE TRUTH!

    Now let’s read more of your twisted/lies! With every respect.

    You: God and his word are one and the same person,

    just as you and your words are one and the same person,

     no one else can be your word, neither,

    Answer Gene, IF A JUDGE CONDEMNS A CRIMINAL, BY WHOSE WORDS HE DO SO, BY HIS OWN WORDS, AS A HUMAN LIKE THE CRIMINAL IS, I MEAN,

    AS HE ACCORDING TO HIS PERSONAL STATE OF INTELLIGENCE AND REASONING, FEELS RIGHT, OR BY

    THOSE WORDS WRITTEN FOR HIM, TO DIRECT HIM, ESTABLISHED  WITHIN THE LAW BY WHOEVER GOVERNS HIS COUNTRY?   

    nor can be GOD the Father’s words either,  

    Me: for you, God and His spiritual eternal tasks are equivalent to our carnal mortal tasks?

    Read please:

    Isaiah: 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void,

    Tell us Gene, DOES YOUR WORD EVER RETURNED TO YOU, NEVER MIND AS GOD’S DOES, I MEAN

    NEVER VOID!

    but it shall do whatsoever I please,

    OR PERHAPS YOUR WORD, SHALL DO WHATEVER YOU PLEASE?

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    How about this one Gene:

    DOES YOUR WORD EVER PROSPERED IN THE THINGS FOR WHICH

    YOU SENT IT, BY ANY CHANCE?

    You: but we can “quote” someone’s words, just as Jesus and the prophets did God the Father’s words to us.  Just as scripture says,  (not me),……“God who spoke to us at Sunday time through the prophets  has in these last day spoke to us through a Son”      NONE of that says that the prophets, nor the Son was actually GOD the FATHER’S word themselves,

    but that they spoke “HIS” word to us. Just that simple.

    Now to scripture Gene,

    John12:47 And if any man hear MY WORDS, and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that despiseth me, and receiveth not MY WORDS,

    hath one that judgeth him;

    the word that I have spoken,

    the same shall judge HIM in the last day. 

    Attention Gene, and in this case Jodi, read please again:

    JESUS’ OWN WORDS:

    …..hath one that judgeth him;

    THE WORD that I have spoken,

    NOTICE Gene, in the above “THE WORD” is  SINGULAR, NOT PLURAL AS IN THE CASE ABOVE WHEN JESUS REFERRED TO HIS

    TEACHINGS, GOSPEL/WORDS, and said:

    …He that despiseth me, and receiveth not MY WORDS,

    Now read Jesus’ own WORDS in the next VITAL statement:

    the same shall judge HIM in the last day. 

    THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM, Gene!

    I make it emphatically clear to you and Jodi:

    JESUS, CONFIRMED THAT, 

    THE SAME, “THE WORD” SHALL JUDGE HIM

    JESUS HIMSELF, AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, AND

    JUDGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE,

    THE SON OF MAN

    SHALL JUDGE HIM,

    Gene, THE LAW IS GOD’S AND JESUS IS “THE WORD OF GOD!

    THE JUDGE WHO APPLIES THE FATHER’S LAW

    When Gene? Read:

    Matthew 16:27 For the SON OF MAN shall come in the GLORY OF HIS FATHER  with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

    ON HIS RETURN IN THE GLORY OF 

    GOD THE FATHER!

    Also CONFIRMED in

    John8: 16And if I do judge, my judgment is true:

    because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

     17And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true. 

    18I am one that give testimony of myself:

    and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me.

     

    You: God and his word are one and the same person,

    just as you and your words are one and the same person,

     no one else can be your word, neither,

    THAT’S RIGHT Gene,

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, AND HIS OWN WORDS ARE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON!

    OFFICIALLY IN THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER

    NO ONE ELSE CAN BE JESUS’ WORD!

    ONLY THE FATHER!

    SINCE THE FATHER IS HIS OWN WORDS!

    SPOKEN BY and FROM WITHIN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD.

    WELL ASSERTED HERUNDER:

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    as clear as crystal Gene, and Jodi,

    Jesus and the Father ARE ONE AND THE SAME PERSON AS

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    February 25, 2023 at 3:23 pm#942529
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    You jump to conclusions too quickly.

    IT IS WRITTEN IN ISAIAH 45 THIS THIS IS OK

    BUT IT IS   ALSO WRITTEN   IN COLOSSIANS 2 ABOUT JESUS

    all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    So how do we reconcile these verses with each other?

    ME:

    There is no jumping to conclusions going on here. What is going on is a lot of reading and re-reading of passages throughout the entire bible applying all scripture together.

    There is nothing that needs to be reconciled actually.

    Concerning Col 1:16, all things were created by him, as in by REASON of him. You want to insist Paul meant by MEANS of him, but the prior aligns perfectly with other scriptures and the later interpretation creates contradiction that you then are attempting to try and reconcile.

    Berean, how do you not see this? It’s a fact that the word dia is utilized in language where it can mean either, by means of or by reason of. Can you acknowledge this truth? I have expressed this many times, that I interpret Col 1:16 as by REASON of him and for him and you’re acting like you are throwing some new scripture at me. I have given you numerous passages to show you how applying “by reason of” aligns everything together perfectly.

    If I were pregnant and made a room for my expected child, I would be making that room by him and for him. The child does not exist yet but I know he is coming and I have prepared a room by reason of him and then of course for him.

    We are given scripture that God was expecting for a child to be born of the seed of David where He would become his Father and settle him into His house and His kingdom forever and give him an eternal throne.

    We are given scripture that this son of David was also promised to be made by God into His firstborn and that he would sit on a throne being made higher than all the kings of the earth.

    We are given scripture that YHVH alone is God and that He by Himself created earth and man, and made the earth for it to be inhabited by people who follow Him in righteousness.

    We are given scripture that YHVH declared the end from the beginning where He planned and thus prepared for one man to come who would fulfill His purpose of the earth being inhabited by people who follow Him in righteousness.

    Berean, we are given directly from scripture that this man fulfills YHVH’s purpose for why YHVH created all things in the first place and we are given scripture that this man is given all things to rule over, so therefore “by reason of him and for him”, could not be more perfect. This truth comes in part in the very chapter of Isaiah where we are told that YHVH HIMSELF created earth and man. 

    I ask for sound reasoning, God is not the author of confusion nor contradiction.

    I will post again concerning the other parts to your post.

    February 25, 2023 at 9:42 pm#942530
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    The Word= a pre-existing Jesus who is God’s only begotten Son existing in the form of God whose name is The Word because by his word in the beginning heaven and earth were created.

    Me: You said that:

    Whose name is The Word BECAUSE BY HIS WORD IN THE BEGINNING HEAVEN AND EARTH WERE CREATED!

    Not quite the truth! I’m afraid!

    Answer please:

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT ALL ARE CREATED BY JESUS’ WORD?

    Nevertheless, ALL ARE CREATED BY HIM, AS A SPIRIT, NOT BY HIS OWN WORD. but by THE FATHER’S within Jesus A SPIRIT, CALLED “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD and

    THE LIGHT and THE LIFE OF ALL!

    THE FATHER IN THE SON AND THE SON IN THE FATHER FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION.

    Well asserted in

    John14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 

    20In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 

    John17:21That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 

    To be Clear.

    Jesus as a spirit was begotten of the Father in the very first act by God John1:1… and God all-knowing , He was established by the Father  as THE ENGRAFTED WORD, ETERNAL LIFE, and THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR between God and His creatures, in all the HEARTS of the endless SPIRITS of light emanated from God in that particular instant when God pronounced, though not as we do, His first ever WORD:

    “LET THERE BE LIGHT”

    The fact that scientifically it is established as “THE BIG BANG”. Well hinted out in

    John12:27 Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause I came unto this hour. 28Father, glorify thy name. A voice therefore came from heaven: I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 

    29The multitude therefore that stood and heard, said that IT THUNDERED.

    Others said: An angel spoke to him.

    You: ….whose name is The Word because by his word .….

    No, Jodi, He is called “THE WORD” as Jesus, AS A SPIRIT, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING is ETERNALLY within YOU ORIGINALLY A SPIRIT, within your HEART/SOUL, TALKING TO YOU, and in the heart of all creatures in order to sustain and reconcile all for God the Father.

    The fact that it is called also the engrafted “WORD”,

    James1:21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness the ENGRAFTED word, which is able to save your SOULS. 

    Jesus, THE ONLY ABODE OF GOD,  THE HOUSE OF THE FATHER, is the only spirit/God attached eternally directly to all creatures’ hearts/SOULS.

    The only process by which God the Father is in the entire creation. Where Jesus as a spirit, ETERNAL LIFE,  from the very beginning like a treasure in a field is sacrificed and sealed for the sake of creation all in him all by him, and all for him, well clear in:

    John6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed.

    Psalm 69:9 For the zeal of thy house hath eaten me up: and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

    John 14:1 LET not your HEART be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father’s HOUSE there are many mansions. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    February 26, 2023 at 2:40 am#942533
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

     

    Me

    I trust in God and his Son Jesus Christ that one day you will understand THE TRUE TRUTH ABOUT WHO JESUS CHRIST REALLY IS FROM HIS DIVINE ORIGIN TO HIS INTERCESSION IN THE HEAVENLY SANCTUARY NOW.

    Jodi, Soon to be 71, I’m not going to change MY FAITH IN THE DIVINE SON OF GOD MADE FLESH now. it is something that I know by biblical revelation and that is engraved in my heart forever and that nothing can erase.

    Dare to ask JESUS WHO HE REALLY IS.

    HAVE YOU DONE IT?

    YOU CAN DO IT, BECAUSE HE HEARS…

    HE IS OUR COMPASSIONATE AND MERCIFUL HIGH PRIEST WHO REJECTS NO ONE WHO COMES TO HIM.

    HEBREWS 1
    [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    [17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he MIGHT BE a, MERCIFUL and FAITHFUL HIGHT PRIEST in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Chap.7
    [25] Wherefore he(Jesus) is able also TO SAVE them to THE UTTERMOST that come unto God BY HIM, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    TO SAVE them to THE UTTERMOST that come unto God BY HIM,

    25
    oqen kai swzein eiV to panteleV dunatai touV prosercomenouV👉 di autou tw qew pantote zwn eiV to entugcanein uper autwn

    7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God👉 by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them .

    God bless

    February 26, 2023 at 9:44 pm#942535
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Made Flesh= The only begotten Son existing in the form of God emptied himself to come down to earth

    finding himself in the uterus of Mary being made into a human of flesh.

    Me: Abandon YOUR carnal-minded reasoning Jodi, BE SERIOUS, respect God’s SPIRITUAL tasks, and at least produce

    THE PRECISE SCRIPTURE PLEASE!

    When will you learn that as much as humans of FLESH produce their children ONLY by physical means, satanic of earth, especially today, I mean despite using machines still need the human sperm and ovum, God who is a spirit, also produces His children ONLY by spiritual means, to be clear; God doesn’t need anything satanic of earth. Well asserted by Jesus ‘own words in

    John14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh,

    and in ME he hath not anything. 

    despite they are born also in THE  FLESH OF HUMANS OF EARTH, without the use of the sperm and the ovum, never mind the uterus of a mortal woman, just to mention a few, like in the case of Abel, Isaac, Melchizedek, John the Baptist, and the most vital His only begotten of the Father, Hebrews 10:5 in the first-ever beginning before anything was ever created, as

    THE SON OF MAN!

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven.

    READ AGAIN Jodi:

    but he, THE MAN, that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man WHO IS in heaven.

    Get this straight into your carnal-minded mentality with every respect, that

    Flesh counts for nothing when it comes to God’s own work,

    only His spirit AS A SUBSTANCE gives life/existence to all His work,

    even when it is physically manifested on this tangible satanic planet.

    Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared to him in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day. 2And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him three men standing near him: and as soon as he saw them he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground. 3And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant: 4But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. 5And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. 6Abraham made haste into the tent to Sera, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. 7And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man: who made haste and boiled it. 8He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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