John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #942447
    Jodi
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    Good Morning Berean,

    1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    of – ek, of, from, out of, by

    by– dia, by the means of, by reason of, on account of

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

    Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

    There is ONE that FROM Him are ALL THINGS. 

    We know that the Spirit came upon Jesus without measure where he was thus anointed/set-apart to go out into the world and speak God’s WORD and do God’s WORKS through God’s Spirit that aboded in him. We can therefore say that God by means of His Spirit in Jesus did great works. 

    We know that when Jesus returns to earth, it is that same Spirit dwelling in him that he continues to do God’s works. We can therefore say that God by means of His Spirit in Jesus will do great works. 

    We also know that all things that God does by means of His Spirit in Jesus were prophesied and prophecy is that which is God’s WORD that will be fulfilled.

    Does scripture support that this same Jesus pre-existed and also by means of God’s Spirit in him heaven and earth were created?  We know that Jesus by means of God’s Spirit SPOKE and healed, he SPOKE and even raised the dead. Through the Spirit we also know that Jesus will, “smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked”. But does scripture support that by means of God’s Spirit in Jesus that at the beginning it was Jesus who spoke and the heavens and earth were created?

    NO, it absolutely does not. 

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

    In the above prophecy that we know is speaking of Jesus, Jesus IS NOT the Creator, on the contrary, he is a human called to righteousness by the Creator.

    Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things…11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 THIS Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;..27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring…29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 

    Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    In the above passages that are clear and need no interpretation, we can obviously see that declaring Jesus as pre-existing as a Creator is pure nonsense, for we learn that the God who created the heavens, the earth and humans, not only did so by Himself, but He did so for the purpose that it be inhabited by humans who seek Him not in vain, where Jesus is a human given the earth to inhabit with an eternal kingdom. Jesus himself, a human male inhabiting the earth, directs us to read Genesis where it was NOT he from the beginning of creation who made them male and female, it was God. 

    There is ONE that FROM Him are ALL THINGS and that Him is YHVH our Heavenly Father. In the beginning He ALONE created heaven and earth by His Spirit and the powers and wisdom therein He uttered His voice. 

    There is ONE that our Heavenly Father created all things BY REASON OF AND FOR, and that is a son of David, Jesus of Nazareth, who will inhabit the earth with an eternal throne, where he is a Son of God, the firstborn of many Sons who do not seek God in vain, they are all Sons by being led by the Spirit of God in all their ways. 

    God created earth to be inhabited and He promised before He even made humans that He would give them eternal life. By the righteousness of one man came justification for life, without this man nothing would have been made that was made. Without him there are no inhabitants with eternal life.  

    This is why Paul says,

    1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    one God, the Father from whom are all things

    one Lord Jesus Christ, by reason of him are all things

     

    #942448
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; 👉whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 👈

     

    —–Eternity past—–origine OF Christ (NOT known)—……………………….

    …….,………………… Fondation OF our earth ………………………Prophecy OF Micah …

    ….

     

    yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;

    👉 FROM THE TIME OF MICAH 👉 it points to A FUTURE TIME NOT TO THE PASTE👈

     

    whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 

    👉 it points to the PAST NOT TO THE FUTURE

    YES OR NO ?

    🙏

    #942449
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Let’ not go around in circles, please address my last post, at the very least speak to the scriptures I gave and show how they fit in perfectly with your interpretation of Micah 5.

    I will incorporate Micah 5 into my last post and also add Luke 1. 

    Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things…11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded…18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    Micah 5:And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days.3 For this cause he will give them up till the time when she who is with child has given birth: then the rest of his brothers will come back to the children of Israel. 4 And he will take his place and give food to his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the glory of the name of the Lord his God; and their resting-place will be safe: for now he will be great to the ends of the earth.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of WISDOM and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of KNOWLEDBGE and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
    48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
    49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
    50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
    51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
    52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
    53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
    54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
    55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    Berean,

    The God who by HIMSELF created the earth and man upon it did so with the purpose that it be inhabited by the seed of Jacob where they would not seek Him in vain but would serve Him in holiness and righteousness. This Creator also purposed since the world began that one from the seed of Israel, of the tribe of Judah, a son of Jesse and that of David, would be a ruler overall, where through the Creators Spirit upon him he would crush the enemies of Israel and bring forth righteousness and peace upon the earth. Jesus is that ruler, he is not the Creator who said He created earth and man BY HIMSELF.

     

    #942450
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Please explain to show how your interpretation aligns with the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah’s words.

    You believe that all thing were created by means of Jesus, that Jesus spoke creation into existence. 

    In Isaiah 42 the Creator is spoken of and he is identified as YHVH our God and this same Creator is said to give His Spirit to a man and to call that man into righteousness to fulfill God’s covenant, which has everything to do with why YHVH created earth in the first place.

    We read later in chapter 45 by Isaiah that YHVH created earth and man upon it by HIMSELF and for the purpose that it be inhabited and we are given by Isaiah in chapter 11 that the same man given the Spirit of YHVH is going to bring peace on earth, he is one who is inhabiting the earth fulfilling YHVH’s purpose for creating it in the first place.

    We read in Jeremiah 10 that YHVH created the earth by His power, by His wisdom and by the utterance of His voice things are made, this aligns directly with the fact that we are told by Isaiah that YHVH by Himself created earth and man.

    It is clearly given that Jesus is not the Creator, rather he is a man who is part of the Creation of all things that YHVH Himself created. We can also clearly see that what this man accomplishes through the Creator’s Spirit upon him, that it is he who fulfills the very purpose to why things were created by YHVH in the first place.

    When we believe that Jesus is the man who is the word of God spoken by the prophets made true in the flesh, then we know EXACTLY WHY it is said of him in the NT that all things were created by reason of him and for him.

     

    #942451
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    ME: God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him.

    YOU:
    The eternal life is Jesus Christ.
    He was the first to be with God and as he is, so we will be.
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand”
    The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
    This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
    I guess that in the same way that Moses imparted the law, Jesus imparts life. Life, Spirit, Light, and the Law come from God. But the law came through Moses and eternal life through the one that was with God in the beginning. The first-born of all creation. The one that came in the flesh.

    ME:

    Proclaimer, how do you account for the fact that it is the Son of Man that was exalted to God’s right hand according to a promise? That it is the Son of Man that is returning in our Father’s glory and it is the son of David that is to sit on an eternal throne where God had promised to this son of David that He WOULD BE a Father unto him and that He WOULD settle him into His House?

    How do you account for the fact that the image of the Son is one who is LED by the Spirit of God according to Paul and that we see Jesus as the only mortal man to have received the Spirit of God not by measure and left the river Jordan being LED by the Spirit, and when he received the Spirit, God declared at that moment that this man is His Son? Such is not the fulfillment of God’s word unto David concerning his son?

    I can’t help but notice in your post that you say absolutely NOTHING ABOUT GOD’S SPIRIT.

    You speak of LIGHT and we are directly given that God gives His Spirit unto a man, calls him to righteousness for to fulfill God’s covenant where he will be for a light, a light that delivers captives out of darkness, saves them from an eternal death through the Spirit that comes upon him.

    Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many…18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    Proclaimer, the man who received the Spirit of God we are also told was called to righteousness such fits perfectly with the fact that Paul tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Jesus said that he needed to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

    Don’t you get it? Jesus himself was CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, don’t you believe YHVH’s word? The mystery of GODLINESS, is that Jesus was JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, God manifested Himself in the flesh, being ALL IN Jesus causing all goodness, righteousness and truth to exist within a man by him receiving the Spirit without measure and then this Son of Man was received up in glory, the Son of Man was exalted to God’s right hand. Just as God had promised unto David son when God said that He WOULD be a Father unto David’s son and then settle him into His House and His Kingdom forever.

    The man Jesus himself said that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God, is not that exactly what happened to Jesus?

    Don’t you get it, Jesus was justified in the Spirit, the Spirit in the man Jesus was proof that the Spirit causes righteousness in man, it qualified him to be worthy of eternal life. God being ALL IN him brought forth his righteousness where by proof of his perfect obedience through the Spirit all men are justified if they believe this truth. God will be ALL in us also and we will be Sons of God being LED by the Spirit of God also. Don’t you believe that ass Ezekiel says that God will give His Spirit and causse us to walk in all of God’ ways?

    What do you think Jesus meant when he said, you will be baptized with the baptism I received and you will drink of the cup that I drink of, where we read that it is the cup of the One Spirit we are made to drink of to which Jesus drank of at the river Jordan and then again when he was raised from the dead? It all fits perfectly and Jesus pre-existing HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLING IN A MAN HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. 

    The promise of eternal life is the promise of God being ALL IN, for sin is death and righteousness is life as we are told the Spirit is life because of righteousness. AND WE SEE JESUS WHO HAD RECEIVED THE SPIRIT NOT BY MEASURE AND WAS CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS BE RAISED FROM THE DEAD, TO THEN RECEIVE THE SPIRIT ACCORDING TO A PROMISE where he was exalted to God’ right hand and entered into God’s house just as God had promised unto David’s son. Such is why our hope is to be as Jesus is, why Paul tells us that our hope is for righteousness, that our hope is by our faith that we will receive the promised Spirit, for we are promised to be heirs of God joint heirs with Christ, where those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    #942452
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,
    You said Christ was equal with God, I asked for scripture to support it.

    You said God “required” a “partner” to redeem and judge the world, I asked for scripture.

    Now you bring up “divinity”, how did we arrive at divinity when we were talking about equality and a partnership? Then to accuse me of being “trained” to not “see” over a topic that we haven’t even discussed. If you would like to discuss the topic of Christ’s “divine state”, I would be open to it. HOWEVER, we need to get past what we began discussing first before we move on. Conversations aren’t one sided, they are a give and take – information presented, questions asked, questions answered.

    P.S. Out of everything I wrote in the response of I Cor 8:6, the only thing you grabbed out of it was the trinity.

    P.P.S. For the record, looked up the Unitarian faith; be assured, I am NOT Unitarian.

    P.P.P.S. Are there any scriptures that support equality and/or partnership?

    #942453
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Please responds to the subject of Micah 5:2 on the origin of the Son of God.

    Thank’s

    🙏

    #942456
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I can’t find “The Origin of the Son of God”, can you bump it up wherever it might be.

    #942457
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ……..please read and study what Jodi wrote to you, perhaps you can come to see Jesus did not “preexist”  , His birth on this earth,  That is your big stumbling block brother.  IMO

    THAT IS NOT saying,  Jesus was not in the plan and will of God , before he ever even started his human creation on this earth though.

    Peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer………..gene

    #942458
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth

    John 1:1-3 With God in the BIGINNING

    John 3:35/13:3  all in HIS hands

    1Peter1:18,19  redeemed by HIS blood

    John 5:22  the Father remits all judgment to the Son

    Don’t forget, you kicked for Genesis 1:26
    And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:

    US, OUR….👉 2 PEOPLE AT LEAST

    🙏

    #942459
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    942448REPLY
    BereanParticipant
    Jodi

    But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;  whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 
    —–Eternity past—–origine OF Christ (NOT known)—……………………….

    …….,………………… Fondation OF our earth ………………………Prophecy OF Micah …

    ….

     

    yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;

    FROM THE TIME OF MICAH   it points to A FUTURE TIME NOT TO THE PASTE

     

    whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 

    it points to the PAST NOT TO THE FUTURE

    YES OR NO ?

    🙏

    #942460
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    I don’t know how else to say this, but peoples’ interpretation of the above scripture is just really bad.

    Correct me if I get anything wrong,

    The Word= a pre-existing Jesus who is God’s only begotten Son existing in the form of God whose name is The Word because by his word in the beginning heaven and earth were created.

    Made Flesh= The only begotten Son existing in the form of God emptied himself to come down to earth finding himself in the uterus of Mary being made into a human of flesh.

    Dwelt Among Us= he came down from heaven to earth

    We beheld his glory, the only glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth= ? you guy are going to have to help me out on this one, please explain?

    My understanding,

    The Word=God’s Word spoken by the prophets, that a son of David would be born and God would become a Father unto him where God would give this son of David of His Spirit calling him to righteousness where he would then be sent out into the world to preach God’s truth and do God’s works.

    Made Flesh= At the river Jordan, God’s Word spoken by the prophets became true in the man of flesh, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Abraham and the son of David.

    Dwelt Among Us=Upon God’s Word being made true in Jesus, just as the Word also prophesied, Jesus was sent out into the world where he preached God’s word of truth and performed miracles among the people.

    We beheld his glory, the only glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth= As the word of God had declared that God would be a Father unto David’s son, that He would make David’s son into His firstborn Son, God gave Jesus His Spirit to dwell in him without measure, whereas also prophesied, God would hold his hand just as a Father would do and keep him in the path of obedience, having called him to righteousness to fulfill God’s covenant. As Jesus was filled with the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for God, given the GLORY that God had promised to no other spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, the people did indeed behold that glory, the glory of one full of grace and truth, the glory of the only man to have been begotten of God’s Spirit without measure.

    The glory is identified as one FILLED WITH GRACE AND TRUTH and we know that Jesus left the river Jordan having been FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT, where we read the promise was for him to receive the Spirit of WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING AND KNOWLEDGE for the PURPOSE TO GO OUT AMONG THE PEOPLE AND PREACH GOD’S TRUTH.

    How can you people in all sincerity tell me that the man who had God’s Spirit come to dwell in him without measure, said to have been FILLED with the Spirit, is not exactly what John was speaking to when he says the “only begotten of the Father, filled with grace and truth”? Is Jesus NOT the ONLY man to have been filled with God’s Spirit without measure? Being filled with God’s Spirit and thus LED by the Spirit is NOT the equivalent to being begotten by God and therefore being a Son of God?

    How can you people in all sincerity tell me that the GLORY that the people beheld, the glory of the only begotten of the Father filled with grace and truth, had nothing to do with the fact that God’s Word was fulfilled in Jesus when Jesus was filled with the Spirit, receiving the glory of God’s word that He had declared He would not give to any other?

    Further, you deny the words of the prophet Nathan who said that God WOULD BE a Father unto a son of David and that HE WOULD give him an eternal kingdom and that HE WOULD settle him into His House and His Kingdom forever. There is NOT an already existing Son of God with an eternal throne, there is NOT already a son of David made into God’s Son who is settled into God’s house when Nathan gave this prophecy.

    What did the man Jesus preach? He said one must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus preached that we would indeed be baptized as he was and that we indeed would drink of the same cup that he drinks of and we know that cup is to drink of the One Spirit to which he received at the river Jordan upon his own baptism and then again when he rose from the dead. He spoke of himself as the Son of Man who would be exalted to God’s right hand, that he was going to leave and go be with the Father, he enters God’s kingdom BECAUSE HE WAS BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT HIMSELF. Such is God’s word that a son of David would be settled into God’s house and into His kingdom, and it was glory that God had prepared for this man from the beginning.

    #942461
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Micah 5:2 is a scripture that is one for debate, which is evident given the different translations.

    Micah 5:2 (BBE) And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days.

    Micah 5:2 (GNT) The Lord says, “Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Israel, whose family line goes back to ancient times.”

    Micah 5:2 (MSG) But you, Bethlehem, David’s country, the runt of the litter – From you will come the leader who will shepherd-rule Israel. He’ll be no upstart, no pretender. His family tree is ancient and distinguished.

    Micah 5:2 (NIRV) The LORD says, “Bethlehem, you might not be an important town in the nation of Judah. But out of you will come a ruler over Israel for me. His family line goes back to the early years of your nation. It goes all the way back to days of long ago.” Bethlehem was also called Ephrathah.

    Micah 5:2 (NIV) “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Micah 5:2 (ASV) But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.

    forth- Mowtsa’ah, this word is found twice in the bible, in Micah 5:2 and then one other time speaking of an outhouse/privy.

    origin, place of going out from

    1.origin

    1. places of going out to or from
    2. privy

    The origin of this word is Mowtsa’

    1. act or place of going out or forth, issue, export, source, spring

    Luke 1: 67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    The ruler spoken of in Micah 5:2 is this horn of salvation spoken of in Luke 1, where he is the Son of Man who will rule over the earth and save Israel from their enemies destroying all the wicked. This ruler coming forth was spoken since the world began.

    Berean, I find it absolutely absurd that you try and use Micah 5:2 as some sort of definitive proof that Jesus pre-existed.

    Such a truth so very significant, you’d think Micah would elaborate on such an extreme declaration, you’d think also it would be well covered throughout the OT, but it’s not covered at all as it’s not in the least bit true. What is covered in great detail is that there will be a ruler of the tribe of Judah who through God’ Spirit upon him he destroys the enemies and brings forth righteousness and peace upon all the earth. Isaiah even tells us that this truth was with God from the beginning, that one man would fulfill God’s purpose for why God created all things in the first place, which was for His creation, that He Himself ALONE had made, would be filled with righteousness. 

    #942462
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You are at war with God’s Holy Bible, especially the KING JAMES. No more no less.

    GO BACK TO THE KING JAMES Jodi, and face the TRUTH.

    God bless

    #942463
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    KJ says, 

    Isaiah 45,

    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God HIMSELF that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Can you please speak directly to these passages?

    Jesus is NOT the Creator according to King James, he is the one of prophecy that our Creator called to righteousness and made into a light. We are directly given that this Creator by HIMSELF formed the earth and made it, it is He that forms the light. To turn and say that the man of the prophecy made into a LIGHT by the Creator actually pre-exited as the Creator, is just utterly deplorable.

    You really need to explain yourself.

    With all do respect, it is you that seems to be quite at war with the KJ bible.

    #942464
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The origin of Jesus goes back to the days of eternity. It’s not complicated.
    Stop fussing and moving heaven and earth to prove the opposite.

    🙏

    #942467
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….Those who truly know the truth , know what you have written is the truth from God’s word.  Haven’t you noticed they never address all the tons of scriptures you quote. THEY ONLY COME BACK WITH A Single SCRIPTURE,  that they can twist to mean something other they what it is actually saying.  They simply use them to , “cloud the truth”  of what you have quoted from many, many, of our existing scriptures. 

    These people are like,  a person swatting a gnat, and swollen a Camel. They are the blind leading the blind, stumbling along the walls of deception, in the trenches they have fallen into.

    Stay strong Jodi, in the way of truth, I believe God has sent us another, “Desire Truth”  to help us in establishing the “TRUTH” here.

    Peace and love to you and your Jodi……….gene

     

     

    #942468
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Surely for someone so invested in God’s word, sharing and defending it’s truth, that being asked to read 6 scriptures out of 2 chapters and then explain how they specifically fit in with your belief, is not too much to ask, should be a rather small task.

    #942469
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Jodi, all the evidence has been provided on this forum by Proclaimer, LU, Carmel, myself and others in the past.

    For about 6,000 years Satan has been trying to deceive mankind with this subterfuge.
    ruse, stratagem) advocated by anti-Christ Unitarians.
    Under the pretense that the Trinity is a false conception of God, AND IT IS, UNITARIANS ENTIRELY REJECT THE CRUSHING FACT THAT CHRIST PRE-EXISTED AND WAS WITH THE GOD AND WAS GOD, AS OUR BROTHER JOHN AFFIRMS .
    IT COMES TO THROW THE BABY(THE TRUTH) OUT WITH THE BATH WATER(THE ERROR).

    🙏

     

     

    #942475
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Evening Berean,

    Surely for someone so invested in God’s word, sharing and defending it’s truth, that being asked to read 6 scriptures out of 2 chapters and then explain how they specifically fit in with your belief, is not too much to ask, should be a rather small task.

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