John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,661 through 23,680 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942418
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,
    For curiosity sake, what do you do for a living (if retired, what did you do prior) and what faith do you most identify with?

    Not to sound like I am prying or to seem I am demanding of you information that I wouldn’t give. For a living I am self employed running a home repair business, along with a side gig making custom wood pieces. I came from a “non-denominational” (what does that really mean – who knows) church, with the last church I attended being Southern Baptist.

    #942419
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    However, jumping to John 1:1 and Jesus being the “word” and therefore God. How exactly does this work? I think we have a problem…

    I believe the answer can be found here:

    John 1:1

    NOTE: You don’t have to read the whole thing to arrive at the answer. The answer is at the beginning of the writing. If you want more proof, just read further.

    #942420
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth

    You

    Having two beings does not support the monotheistic faith the Jews have? Deut 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”. However, jumping to John 1:1 and Jesus being the “word” and therefore God. How exactly does this work? I think we have a problem… 

    Me

    Why?  There IS no problem…..

    The bible teaches us

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, 

    👉OF WHOM are all things, and we in him; 

    and 

    one Lord Jesus Christ, 

    👉BY WHOM are all things, and we by him.(1Cor.8:6)  

    Paul to the ephesians  :

    And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which👉 from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, 👈 who created all things 👉 by Jesus Christ:(3:19)

    Chap.4

    There is one body, 

    and 👉one Spirit,

    even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    [5] 👉One Lord, 

    one faith, 

    one baptism, 

    [6]👉 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 

    God bless

    🙏

    #942421
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

     

    Amen for what you posted !

    🙏

    #942422
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Desire Truth,

    You: @ Berean,

    Since Jesus was with God at the foundation of the world and is the one God is speaking with, that would mean there were two separate beings of the “godhead” in heaven at creation. Having two beings does not support the monotheistic faith the Jews have? Deut 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”. However, jumping to John 1:1 and Jesus being the “word” and therefore God. How exactly does this work?

    I think we have a problem…

    Me: read very attentively my post, and ponder.

    “THE WORD” IN John 1:1 is not just  a word  but also  A SPIRIT, to be precise

    A TRIUNE SPIRIT!

    ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT!

    IN THE SAME WAY,

    WE ALSO ARE

    TRIUNE IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD IN

    SPIRIT, SOUL, and FLESH

    ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT!

    JESUS WAS BORN IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN

    A TRIUNE BEING IN

    SPIRIT, THE FATHER’S

    SOUL, THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD, and

    FLESH, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN.

    ONE SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT.

    ON HIS DEATH, THE FATHER’S SPIRIT LEFT JESUS AS HE CANNOT DIE.

    IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH,

    through death itself!

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, and

    THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD,

    INTEGRATED John13:31,32   and FROM THEN ON

    THEY ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT

    ONE GLORIFIED BOTH

    SOUL and FLESH 

    TWO IN ONE FLESH BODY, ALL SPIRITUAL,

    BOTH DIVINE AND MAN IN

    JESUS CHRIST 

    THE SON OF GOD

    LORD GOD AND FATHER OF THE HUMAN RACE!

    GODMAN

    Luke 24:37  37But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit. 38And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 

    39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have.

    40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.

     

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

     

    JESUS CHRIST

     

     

    #942424
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..see what they do here, they force our text to say what in fact it doesen’t say or even hint at, by adding their own words to the text.

    CARMEL SAID

    39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have.

    40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.

    please show me the word (NORMAL)  anywhere in the text he was quoting?

    It isn’t there,  what Jesus actually said is ….“for a spirit has not flesh and bones, as you see I have”.   

    Jesus was obviously saying he was not a Spirit being himself.  ANYONE even with the simplest unerstanding of what Jesus said and meant, should know that.

    What Carmel only proves is that he does not,  “truly” believe Jesus, nor what he says either. 

    Peace and love to you and yours  Desire Truth………..gene

     

     

     

    #942425
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    The WORD of Life, ETERNAL LIFE , was With the Father from the beginning as God from the beginning PROMISED Eternal Life to mankind.

    God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him.

    The resurrected Jesus became God’s WORD, which is God and was with God from the beginning, made true in the flesh. As Jesus became God’s WORD made true, our faith is that His WORD will be made true in us also.

    #942426
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The WORD of Life, ETERNAL LIFE , was With the Father from the beginning as God from the beginning PROMISED Eternal Life to mankind.

    God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him. 

    The resurrected Jesus became God’s WORD, which is God and was with God from the beginning, made true in the flesh. As Jesus became God’s WORD made true, our faith is that His WORD will be made true in us also. 

    Me

    In John 1:1

    we are in parallel with Genesis 1:1
    God is about to create the heavens and the earth.
    The Son named “THE WORD” was with GOD and he was God.

    CREATION:
    Everything was done by “THE WORD” and nothing that was done was done without “THE WORD”.

    And now why did God (the Father) choose to do all things through his Son? (creation, redemption, judgment)

    That’s the big question.

    The answer is that He couldn’t do it all alone.

    I) Can He create the heavens and the earth ALL ALONE ?
    THE ANSWER IS YES.

    II) CAN HE JUST REDEMPTION HUMANITY ALONE?
    THE ANSWER IS NO.

    III) CAN HE RIGHTLY JUDGE  THE WORLD ALONE?
    THE ANSWER IS NO

    AND THEREFORE GOD WHO KNOWS ALL THINGS BEFORE THEY ARRIVED HAS CHOSEN TO GENERATE HIS SON EQUAL TO HIMSELF, REFLECTING HIS GLORY, IMPRINT OF HIS PERSON AND HAS DELIVERED EVERYTHING INTO HIS HANDS: CREATION, REDEMPTION, AND JUDGMENT .
    OF COURSE, EVERYTHING HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED AND WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED IN FULL COMMUNION WITH THE FATHER.

    AN IMPORTANT POINT BEFORE ENDING IS KNOWN TO REDEMPTION HUMANITY, THE SON WAS NOT FORCED TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF, HE OFFERED HIMSELF TO SAVE US FROM PERIL.
    👇
    Titus 2:14
    Who gave HIMSELF for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify himself unto a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
    👇
    Galatians 1:4
    who gave HIMSELF for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father:

    🙏

    #942427
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Desire Truth……..see what they do here, they force our text to say what in fact it doesen’t say or even hint at, by adding their own words to the text.

    CARMEL SAID

    39See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see:

    for a (NORMAL) spirit hath not flesh and bones,

    as you see me to have.

    40And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet.

    Gene, I’m afraid that’s not what I posted!

    Why didn’t you post the whole scripture I posted? 

    Here it comes read:

    Luke 24:37 But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit.

    ANSWER Gene, please:

    WHY DID THEY SUPPOSE THAT THEY SAW A SPIRIT?

    I’M WAITING!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942429
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth

    You: @ Carmel,
    For curiosity sake, what do you do for a living (if retired, what did you do prior) and what faith do you most identify with?

    Not to sound like I am prying or to seem I am demanding of you information that I wouldn’t give.

    For a living I am self employed running a home repair business, along with a side gig making custom wood pieces.

    I came from a “non-denominational” (what does that really mean – who knows) church, with the last church I attended being Southern Baptist.

     

    Me: May I ask, what made you ask me such a question?

     

    Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #942430
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel…….You remind me of a tennis ball being bounced off  walls of deception,  saying I was not “quoting” the scriptures correctly is a lie,  and you well know that.

    I am quoting them “exactly as they are written”,  in the king James bible.   

    Because those scriptures go against you and your false teachings, is your problem not mine,  as I have said before,  if you “TRULY” believed Jesus, you would believe what He said. 

    And I quoted “EXACTLY” what the King James bible said he said.

    Me: Let’s verify who is telling lies:

    You said:

    Evidently you still don’t “TRULY” , believe Jesus, nor what he said (not me)…..

    “the words I am telling you, are “NOT”,  MY WORDS,

    but the words of him that sent me”.

     That alone should be enough to make it clear Jesus is “NOT” God the Father’s word.

    Scriptures:

    DRB Version.

    Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not, keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard, is not mine; but the Father’s who sent me.

    Now to

    KJV.

    John14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

    You: “the words I am telling you, are “NOT”,  MY WORDS,

    but the words of him that sent me”.

    I am quoting them “exactly as they are written”,  in the king James bible.

    Me: IT IS QUITE CLEAR TO ME THAT YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE WORD “EXACTLY” MEANS  NEVER MIND QUOTING THE SCRIPTURE!  

    NOW LET’S COMPARE THE TWO VERSIONS FIRST Gene,

     KJB                                          DRB. VERSION.

    MY WORDS                               MY WORD              Equal message

    MY SAYINGS and                    MY WORDS           Equal message    

    THE WORD                                THE WORD.         Equal message   

    YOU: Because those scriptures go against you and your false teachings, is your problem not mine, 

    NO Gene, the KJV doesn’t go against me at all.

    AS YOU CAN WELL READ BOTH VERSIONS ARE PERFECTLY THE SAME, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE FIRST TERM, WHERE

    THE KJV USED THE PERSONAL PRONOUN AND THE PLURAL, WHILE

    THE DRB USED THE PERSONAL PRONOUN AND THE SINGULAR.

    THE KJV  USED THE PLURAL SIMPLY AS IN John 6:63 JESUS USED ALSO THE PLURAL WHEN HE REFERRED TO THE SPIRIT Read:

    John 6:63…..  The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

    Now that is precisely what I said and meant, that JESUS REFERRED TO HIS SPIRIT SINCE HE USED THE PERSONAL PRONOUN.

    THUS, THOUGH THEY HAVE THE SAME MESSAGE, I PREFERRED THE DRB AS I CONSIDERED IT TO HAVE MORE CLARITY, IN RELATION TO YOUR  DECEPTION I’M AFRAID.

    READ NOW YOUR TWISTED VERSION AND COMPARE  IT WITH BOTH VERSIONS :

    YOURS                                                         KJV                  DRB

    THE WORDS        (equal message)    MY WORDS     MY WORD

    MY WORDS and  (equal message)   MY SAYING     MY WORDS

    THE WORDS       (wrong message)   THE WORD      THE WORD

    As you can see and read the last term, WHICH IS VITAL  for the TRUTH is wrong from your side, DELIBERATELY DONE TO QUENCH YOUR THIRST, HIDE THE TRUTH, AND DECEIVE OTHERS.

    You: That alone should be enough to make it clear Jesus is “NOT” God the Father’s word.

    Now you have a problem Gene, I’m afraid, as the scripture CONFIRMS THAT JESUS IS

    “THE WORD”/SPIRIT, SPOKEN OF GOD 

    John 6:63…..  The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.

    I’M AFRAID Gene  THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    DO EVERYBODY A FAVOUR Gene, AND PRODUCE GENUINE SCRIPTURE PLEASE. AS NO ONE TRUSTS YOU.

    Now read again what I posted and accept the TRUTH for a change:

    DRB. VERSION.

    John14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him:

    If anyone love me, he will keep MY WORD,

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM

    “MY WORD”, A PERSONAL PRONOUN, and A SINGULAR. A clear reference to “HIS PERSONAL SPIRIT”

    and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

    24He that loveth me not, keepeth not MY WORDS.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM “MY WORDS” A PERSONAL PRONOUN and A PLURAL. A clear reference to “HIS SAYINGS, HIS PREACHING, HIS GOSPEL”.

    And THE WORD which you have heard, is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    ATTENTION NOW Gene, IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM “THE WORD” AN ARTICLE and A SINGULAR, a clear reference to “THE SPIRIT”.

    NOW READ AGAIN WHAT HE CONFIRMED:

    And THE WORD which you have heard is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    GOT IT Gene? THE ABOVE IS A PURE TRUTH THAT YOU ALL THE TIME DENY!

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS ASSERTED THAT:

    “THE WORD”/THE SPIRIT which you have heard; OBVIOUS THE FATHER’S SPIRIT, READ:

    is not mine, HERE IT COMES MR. Gene:

    but the Father’s who sent me!

    NOW READ YOUR OWN TWISTED SCRIPTURE AGAIN:

    Jesus said  (not me)…..          “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me.

    You, Gene, USED THE SAME TERM THREE TIMES, I MEAN:

     PLURAL,

    A TERM NEVER USED BY JESUS AT ALL! 

    NO, Gene, I’M AFRAID THE ABOVE ARE YOUR TWISTED WORDS NOT JESUS’ OWN WORDS, AND

    YOU SAID THEM NOT JESUS.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942432
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God Himself IS ETERNAL and by His power He can give us Eternal Life also, He IS THE SOURCE of Eternal Life, it is Him and it is with Him.

    The eternal life is Jesus Christ.

    He was the first to be with God and as he is, so we will be.

    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand”

    The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

    This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

    I guess that in the same way that Moses imparted the law, Jesus imparts life. Life, Spirit, Light, and the Law come from God. But the law came through Moses and eternal life through the one that was with God in the beginning. The first-born of all creation. The one that came in the flesh.

    #942433
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    You: “read very attentively my post, and ponder.” ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!

    This is the first and only time I will say this, if you continue to treat me as an idiot because I don’t believe in a doctrine the same as you, I will ignore everything you post and there will be zero recognition of anything you respond to me with! I have dealt with the “pompous” and “arrogant” within the church and from your own words and how you speak to those who question your thoughts, there’s an air of each in your writing. Tone it down and let’s have a conversation like adults! I will not belittle you, reciprocate the same; we are all here to learn and grow in our walk and this type of spirit does not facilitate growth! IF your intent was not to be “abrasive”, I can’t read your mind, just your words!

    Onto your responses, I will admit the book of John is written is a unique way, different from the others. Would I go as far as to say it’s “spiritual”, thus needing a “spiritual” mindset in order to understand? Absolutely not! When we read 20:30-31, John says why he wrote the book, it puts the context of the entire book into perspective. John was confirming to the reader Jesus IS the Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One, the Son of God; the one that was prophesied throughout the Tanakh (old testament).

    You also bring up a set of verses and call them a “paradox”; if an unbeliever where to stumble on this sight, they wouldn’t see a “paradox” they would see contradiction. What you are calling a “paradox” is nothing of the sort as you are not applying these verses in the context of which they have been written. One must read above and below to have an understanding of what is really being said. What you have done is cherry picked these verses to say what you want them to say and then deceived everyone who may have read them and agreed to your paradoxical theory.

    Concerning the “word of God”, you didn’t look it up? How come? I don’t read Jesus in any of these passages.

    Samuel said to Saul, “Tell the servant pass on before us” (and he passed on), “but stand still first, that I may cause you to hear the word of God.”

    But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,…

    That same night, the word of God came to Nathan, saying,…

    Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him.

    making void the word of God by your tradition, which you have handed down. You do many things like this. (Jesus speaking)

    in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.

    You assert Jesus is God/man, why then must you perform mental gymnastics to support that claim? Jesus never once said he was God the Son. In fact Jesus said he was the “son of man” as recorded in Matt, Mark, and Luke. In these three books everyone else (demons, Pharisees, disciples, centurion) called him “Son of God” and only once did Jesus confirm it. John is a different story, recall what was written above and why John wrote the book. What is the “son of man”? One must go way back into the old testament to discover…will anyone?

    I asked what you do/did and your faith for a wider picture of who you are. Wasn’t trying to be intrusive, but also to not be presumptive.

    #942434
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Carmel,

    You: “THE WORD” IN John 1:1 is not just a word but also A SPIRIT, to be precise A TRIUNE SPIRIT!

    Substantiate this claim scripturally and can you do it without John’s writings? Can you substantiate this claim using the old testament? Since the new testament didn’t exist for 300-400 after Christ, the old testament was what the apostles taught from. I am a firm believer that to understand the “new” you have to understand the “old”. If the “new” is all there is for you, you will not fully understand what is being said.

    We must also remember, the Scriptures were written by Jews, to Jews, and for Jews; if scriptures are confusing and difficult to understand, are you looking at scripture with a Jewish mindset?

    #942435
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You wrote:

    And now why did God (the Father) choose to do all things through his Son? (creation, redemption, judgment)

    That’s the big question.

    The answer is that He couldn’t do it all alone.

    I) Can He create the heavens and the earth ALL ALONE ?

    THE ANSWER IS YES.

    II) CAN HE JUST REDEMPTION HUMANITY ALONE?

    THE ANSWER IS NO.

    III) CAN HE RIGHTLY JUDGE THE WORLD ALONE?

    THE ANSWER IS NO

    What did I just read?!?!?!? Are you saying GOD is to small to redeem humanity or judge the world? What God do you serve? My God created the universe and all that is in it, has no beginning or end, knows the actions of every person who has ever walked or will walk the face of this planet, and He needs man for what?

    You: HAS CHOSEN TO GENERATE HIS SON EQUAL TO HIMSELF

    I need some scripture that says Christ is equal to God! Everything Christ did was not of himself, but of the Father.

    #942436
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth

    The problem with you Unitarians is that despite the texts and explanations provided, you continue to deny the simple basic truth of the Bible.

    THIS TRUTH IS THAT GOD DOES NOT DO THINGS ALONE, HE HAS A PARTNER, AND THIS PARTNER IS HIS ONLY  BEGOTTEN SON.

    PAUL EXPRESSES IT CLEARLY IN 1 COR.8:6

    But to us there is but ONE GOD the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THING, and we in him;
    and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, and we by him.

    GOD THE FATHER OF WHOM…

    JESUS CHRIST BY WHOM….

     

    WHEN YOU BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THIS, YOUR DESIRE FOR THE TRUTH WILL BE MORE AND MORE SATISFIED.

    AND I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT YOU DESIRE THE TRUTH.

    🙏

    #942442
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth…….  You said,…… “I am a firm believer that to understand the “new” you have to understand the “old”. If the “new” is all there is for you, you will not fully understand what is being said.”  

    That is “exactly the truth”, we can’t even begin to understand the New Testement without understanding the Old Testement. It takes both with the, “Spirit of truth”   to properly understand scriptures IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours,  Desire Truth. ………gene

    #942443
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    You missed my earlier post when I stated my faith, Unitarian isn’t it – Non-Denominational and Southern Baptist. What faith do you identify with?

    You also say God “requires” a partner, thus making God small and incapable. This premise is neither scriptural or truthful and I vehemently reject that concept! You believe in a triune god, a doctrine I formally believed and now reject. Believing this triune doctrine clouds the truth within scripture, crippling people from the finding the actual truth contained in it.

    I Cor 8:6 isn’t a partnership, it’s the solution. There are many different translations of scripture, please don’t focus on a single translation as you will be bound by that translators bias and miss something in the process. One particular translation states “from whom”, “through whom”. Everything comes from God and we have access to it through Christ.

    God didn’t “need” Christ in the old testament; however, He provided a way for forgiveness and salvation to the Israelite. From creation God had a plan, a promise of a messiah written of in the old testament, and that promise is fulfilled in Christ. Who by his obedience to God has been glorified and is now seated at God’s right hand. God didn’t need a partner, we needed a savior/mediator to come before God and Christ was it.

    At the end of our last post I asked for scripture to back up your statement of Christ being equal to God…do you have one?

    #942444
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Gene,

    If I had been armed with this “knowledge” 30 years ago…I’m here now, just have to run the race a little faster. 🙂

    #942445
    Berean
    Participant

    At the end of our last post I asked for scripture to back up your statement of Christ being equal to God…do you have one?

    Mr

    If you can’t see the divinity of Christ right now, someone has trained you against it.
    Moreover, believing in the divinity of Christ does not mean being Trinitarian and this is precisely the problem of the Unitarians. They are not able to discern between the trinitarian error and THE TRUTH. And that is not from today.
    Will you believe one day?
    We hope.

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