John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,641 through 23,660 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942391
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Desire truth………Simple,  you need to just believe what Jesus told us and you have your answer,   Jesus said  (not me)…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.  Simple as that,  those that believe Jesus know by Jesus’ own words, he, “himelf” is not the words of God himself, he was quoting as a “MEDIATOR”,would to us, the words of God.  He never took the position of actually himself being the word of God himself.   

    Me: Gene, AS ALWAYS YOU ARE NOT IN THE POSITION TO PRODUCE GENUINE SCRIPTURE !

    READ WHAT YOU SAID ( NOT JESUS)

    Jesus said  (not me)…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.

    NOW LET’S READ THE SCRIPTURE!

    DRB. VERSION.

    John14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him:

    If anyone love me, he will keep MY WORD,

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM

    “MY WORD” A PERSONAL PRONOUN and A SINGULAR. A clear reference to “HIS PERSONAL SPIRIT”

    and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

    24He that loveth me not, keepeth not MY WORDS.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM “MY WORDS” A PERSONAL PRONOUN and A PLURAL. A clear reference to “HIS SAYINGS, HIS PREACHING, HIS GOSPEL”.

    And THE WORD which you have heard, is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    ATTENTION NOW Gene, IN THE ABOVE JESUS USED THE TERM “THE WORD” AN ARTICLE and A SINGULAR, a clear reference to “THE SPIRIT”.

    NOW READ AGAIN WHAT HE CONFIRMED:

    And THE WORD which you have heard is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    GOT IT Gene? THE ABOVE IS A PURE TRUTH THAT YOU ALL THE TIME DENY!

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS ASSERTED THAT:

    “THE WORD” /THE SPIRIT which you have heard is not mine; OBVIOUS THE FATHER’S SPIRIT, READ:

    is not mine, HERE IT COMES MR. Gene:

    but the Father’s who sent me!

    NOW READ YOUR OWN TWISTED SCRIPTURE AGAIN:

    Jesus said  (not me)…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me.

    You, Gene, USED THE SAME TERM THREE TIMES, I MEAN:

    AN ARTICLE AND A PLURAL,

    A TERM NEVER USED BY JESUS AT ALL! 

    NO, Gene, I’M AFRAID THE ABOVE ARE YOUR TWISTED WORDS NOT JESUS’ OWN WORDS, AND YOU SAID THEM NOT JESUS.

    OK Mr. GENIUS?

    JESUS NEVER REFERRED TO HIS OWN PERSONAL PARTICULAR WORDS AS SUCH, BUT TO “THE WORD” OR MORE APPROPRIATELY THE SPIRIT, DEFINITELY

    THE FATHER’S SPIRIT WITHIN JESUS!

    THE PURE TRUTH!

    NOW YOU, ONLY AS YOU FEEL FIT, TO QUENCH YOUR THIRST, AND PLEASE YOUR  MENTALITY, DECLARED THIS YOURSELF.

    IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE YOU DIDN’T.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942392
    Jodi
    Participant

    Welcome Desire Truth!

    Nice to see someone new and I’m loving your spirit and also your profile name.

    One reason why I enjoy this forum is because it definitely does cause me to dig deeper also.

    Looking forward to more posts by you, hope you stick around.

    #942393
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    No one gave a concise answer to why John didn’t just say “Jesus” in the opening of the book, why use “word”. Do our biases add to confusion and make it more difficult to understand? I think the reason for no concise answer is we really don’t know why John wrote the beginning like he did – I do have a thought for later. I believe, as Gene does, that Jesus wasn’t what John meant. We have been taught something for so long that it has become truth. Just like many doctrines within the church today, we believe without question because our pastor wouldn’t lie to us…right! The reality is the pastor isn’t intentionally lying as this is what they are taught in the academic world, by an instructor who was taught the same thing, and the cycle goes back over a millennium. The early church warned about this type of deception and to not allow man’s doctrines to supersede the word of God.

    @ Proclaimer,
    If this is a revelation to John, why wasn’t it carried throughout the book? I think we are missing a key piece of understanding.

    @ Carmel,
    I thought you said it was “crystal clear”! Your explanation was anything but clear and seems to add more to the confusion.

    How can God have no beginning, yet have a beginning? Seems contradictory. What is “ad intra” and “ad extra”, never heard these terms before and sounds like a man made way to explain a man made theology. Personally, I like simple; so, let’s keep it super simple!

    In James 1:21, you state the “engrafted word” relates back to John1:1 and a reference to Christ – WHAT?!?!? Please read verses 19-25 and place verse 21 in context of what was written. We are to be doers and not hearers of this engrafted/implanted word. When I read this my understanding is to be doers of the word. So what is the engrafted/implanted word?  What is this “word” we are to be doing? Is this word the 10 Commandments? Rev 22:14 states we must DO God’s commandments to have the right to the Tree of Life.

    In Heb 4:12, the word of God is living, active, sharper, piercing, and discerning. What/who is the word of God? Homework: do a search on “word of God” in your favorite Bible program (I use Xiphos) and tell me this is Christ.

    @ Berean,
    Your concern over the capitalization of words within the New Testament and proving the validity is rather simple. The original Greek manuscripts where written in all capitals; so, it would have been left up to the translators to insert capitalization of specific words. Were the translators influenced by a “religious bias” when they translated the manuscripts? A point to ponder.

    #942395
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Jodi,

    Thank you for the welcome. This has been an amazing and an eye opening journey. I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I do have a lot thoughts and even more questions. Looking forward to participating in the conversations here and possibly offering up some new thoughts in the process.

    #942396
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth

     

    Welcome to the forum

    In John 1:1 it is written that “THE WORD” was God.

    As I said to Gene recently words spoken BY GOD cannot be God, ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD.

    HERE IN JOHN 1:1 IT CAN ONLY REFER TO THE SON OF GOD WHO WAS WITH GOD IN THE BIGINNING.

    IN JOHN 17:5 WE HAVE A CONFIRMATION THAT HE WAS WITH GOD BEFORE THE FOUNDING OF THE WORLD.

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    And we have confirmation that he was God in the beginning in Hebrews1:8-12

    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
    [9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    [10] And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
    [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    you wrote

    No one gave a concise answer to why John didn’t just say “Jesus” in the opening of the book, why use “word”. 

    Me

    To inform us that IN THE BIGINNING, the SON OF GOD IS THE CREATIVE AGENT OF THE FATHER.
    HE SAYS OR SPEAKS AND THE THING IS/EXISTS.

    In Genesis 1:26,
    the” And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” lets us believe that GOD speaks to his Son.

    And to conclude Paul tells us that God is the source of everything BY HIS HIS SON.

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    (1Cor.8 /Col.1)

    God bless

    🙏

    #942397
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Posting this to remind myself to watch it later.

    Don’t know if it will be any good, but it is about the Word of God.

    The guys speaking did a good job on another subject, so will see what his view is on this subject.

    #942398
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning LU,

    Sorry I missed seeing your post and question earlier and thank you for kind words. I am hanging in there! Hope you are doing well.

    YOU:

    I would like to know your understanding of what the One who existed in the form of God emptied himself of as spoken of in Philippians 2:

    5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    ME:

    I greatly appreciate this question as what Paul is speaking to is very profound and so many misinterpret it and therefore destroy it’s true significance. I feel like I could write a book focusing on this very chapter.

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

    The anointed/set-apart Jesus by being given the Spirit not by measure and thus was in the form of God, was sent out into the world to do God’s works where he made himself of no reputation, he made himself nothing even saying that he could do nothing of himself, even saying why call me good, only God is good. With all the powers he had that most certainly made him exist in the form of God, he did not seek his own glory which would have come from following his own will which he never did, he was an obedient servant to God following only God’s will, even unto his own suffering and death.

    In verse 5, which I am so glad you included,  Paul is leading up to giving us the attitude/mind of the anointed Jesus and saying to those he is speaking to that they need to be of that same attitude/mind that the anointed Jesus had. 

    Is Paul asking for these men to be of the same attitude of a pre-existing Jesus who existed in the form of God or is Paul asking them to be of the same attitude of the man who was anointed with the Spirit, to which they also received to then also be sent out into the world to do God’s work? 

    I will answer that question in my next post with scriptural support, which will also support further the answer I gave to your question.

    #942399
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Continuing on,

    In verse 5,  Paul is leading up to giving us the attitude/mind of the anointed Jesus and saying to those he is speaking to that they need to be of that same attitude/mind that the anointed Jesus had.

    Is Paul asking for these men to be of the same attitude of a pre-existing Jesus who existed in the form of God or is Paul asking them to be of the same attitude of the man who was anointed with the Spirit and then was sent out into the world?

    I believe it is important to look at who Paul is speaking to in greater detail.

    Paul actually identifies them in further detail in that same chapter to which we can connect to other passages for greater understanding.

    Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
    14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
    15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
    16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracle; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    Isaiah 42:Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 

    The BODY of Christ represents Jesus of Nazareth who was the only mortal man to have been filled with God’s Spirit without measure. The Body of Christ represents all of the gifts of our Heavenly Father’s Spirit, wisdom, understanding, reverence and thus faith unto God, the ability to perform miracles, ability to discern spirits, ability to heal, ability to give prophecy, etc.. Upon receiving the Spirit Jesus was anointed/set apart to be sent out into the world to fulfill God’s will, to preach of the coming Kingdom of God. He was not of this world as he was sent down from heaven, sent directly by God.

    Paul in Philippians 2 was speaking to the people of 1 Corinthians 12, those who received gifts of the Spirit coming together representing the body of Christ, representing the gifts of God’s Spirit to which Jesus had received in full. They too were sent out into the world as Jesus was sent, they too were not of this world as Jesus was not of this world. They too were fulfilling God’s will as the anointed Jesus did. They were to be like minded with THIS anointed man. 

    God was IN Jesus WITHOUT MEASURE for the purpose of him to speak God’s word and do God’s work, by such he is most certainly in the form of God and Jesus speaks to this very clearly in the below passage.

    John 12: 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jesus always gives all credit to God saying that he can do nothing of himself and at one point he even says, why call me good, only God is good. In John 12 he establishes not only he is in the form of God but that he is God’s servant, one who obeys God’s commands.

    Paul in Phil 2:5 is speaking about the attitude/mind OF THE ANOINTED Jesus of Nazareth, the thoughts of a man who had been anointed/set apart having received the Spirit not by measure.

    2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Let me reiterate some more, I know I do that quite a bit, lol.

    Jesus being full of the Spirit having God’s great powers, found himself in the likeness of men when he was sent into the wilderness with no food for 40 days and nights and hungered. He humbled himself and served God instead of using the powers bestowed upon him to turn stones into bread. Jesus being in the form of God with the powers of God’s Spirit had the ability to never be in a position that made him in the likeness of men, he didn’t have to ever go hungry.

    Jesus being full of the Spirit found himself in the likeness of men when he found himself fearing death and asked God to take this cup away from him. Jesus humbled himself to serve God over his own will. Jesus, being in the form of God, could have saved himself at any moment, when he was being beaten and when he was nailed to the cross. Being in the form of God he could have positioned himself to not have to even face the fear of death, let alone death itself. 

    Do you see it, do you understand the great significance? Jesus being full of the Spirit given powers of the Spirit, thus finding himself in the form of God, seeing himself as equal to God, could have saved himself from any manner of suffering that mortal men face, from that of hunger, from that of fear, from that of terrible physical pain and suffering, but he humbled himself to be obedient to God being a perfect servant, going to his death on the cross for us. 

    Further we are told in scripture that Jesus was numbered with transgressors and though the anointed Jesus knew no sin, God made him to be sin for us, by such we can say that he who was in the form of God not worthy of death, but found himself in the likeness and fashion of men, as one guilty of sin deserving of death.

    Jesus didn’t humble himself by leaving a godly form to be found in the likeness of men, he was a human who received God’s Spirit without measure and therein great powers that he never once used for his own gain, on the contrary, he humbled himself and used it to the cause of his own persecution, suffering and death, all because he loved us, all for us.

    Jesus speaks to the same people in Revelation who Paul spoke to in Philippians 2, Jesus tells them,

    Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    What do we read from Paul before verse 5,

    1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

    2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

    3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

    4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    There is ONE SPIRIT and Jesus was the only mortal man to have been filled with it without measure where he was anointed/set apart to go out into the world to do God’s work preaching salvation and the coming kingdom of God. Because of his words and his work he was persecuted and killed. His attitude the entire time was not of vainglory but to be God’s faithful servant and give God all the credit making himself of no reputation, emptying himself of his own will and all that he did was because he loved us.

    There is ONE SPIRIT and it came upon many with various gifts which were all the gifts that one man himself had received, so together these members equated to the body of Christ. Paul spoke to these men in Philippians 2 that they not have vain glory because of their gifts and that they be servants of God just as the anointed Jesus was and that they do all things for the love of others as he did. They too were persecuted and killed and Jesus’s resurrection is also their resurrection.

     

    #942400
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Gene

    If “the word” are only spoken words
    why then John said:

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    GENE ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD, NOT SPOKEN WORDS EVEN IF THEY COME FROM GOD.

    When God speaks, only GOD IS GOD NOT HIS WORDS.

    Berean God and his words are one and the same person, just as you and your word are you.  No one can be another person’s words, common sense should tell you that.

    Evidently you still don’t “TRULY” , believe Jesus, nor what he said (not me)…..“the words I am telling you, are “NOT”,  MY WORDS, but the words of him that sent me”.  That alone should be enough to make it clear Jesus is “NOT” God the Father’s word.

    And again scripture says (not me),  “but unto us their is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between God and men, “THE MAN”, Jesus Christ”. 

    But you chose not to “TRULY” BELIEVE Jesus, or you would admit and believe these words I have quoted from scripture, and stop trying to destroy them.

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean……..gene

    #942401
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    GOD AND WHAT HE SAYS ARE NOT QUITE THE SAME THING.

    BRING BIBLICAL EVIDENCE MR GENE, AND WE WILL SEE AFTER.

    🙏

    #942404
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Let’s look a little deeper in to John 17:5

    “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.” Does this mean Jesus was with God before creation or is Jesus stating God foreknew the outcome even before creation and was part of this greater “plan” for mankind? I’m thinking the latter.

    Peter used this same type of language in I Pet 1:20 in reference to Jesus being the spotless lamb “…who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of times for your sake”

    John also states the same thing in Rev 13:8 “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Are we to say Jesus was crucified before the world began? Or is John speaking of God’s plan?

    Paul in Rom 8:29 “For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son…” God foreknew all those called according to his purposes and at what point in time did God figure this out? From before the world existed?

    Eph 1:4 “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love” All who have been chosen before the foundations of the world would therefore have existed in heaven first…right?

    Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Did Jeremiah exist in heaven first with God or was he part of a plan God knew before it happened?

    So does the concept of being foreknown equate to preexistence? From the sampling of verses above, I would say no. We are all part of a greater plan that God knew even before it began and already knows how it will end.

    You also site Gen 1:26, “God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…” and you say God is speaking to his son. However, as annotated in the NETfull translation – “In its ancient Israelite context the plural (the us and our) is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court.”

    1 Kings 22:19-22, Micaiah said, “Therefore hear Yahweh’s word. I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all the army of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 Yahweh said, ‘Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing; and another said another. 21 A spirit came out and stood before Yahweh, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 Yahweh said to him, ‘How?’ He said, ‘I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ He said, ‘You will entice him, and will also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Wasn’t God conferring with the heavenly body?

    In Job 1:6-12 and 2:1-6 we find God speaking with those in the heavenly. In Isa 6:1-8 the heavenly are in service to God and God asks, “who will go on our behalf?” The only conclusion I can come up with is those who are in service to God are the “us” and “our”. In none of these passages is a son ever mentioned, only the heavenly who surround the Father.

    So now when looking back on Genesis 1:26, to whom is God speaking? Let’s use scripture to support our answers. If you made it to the end, thank you!

    #942406
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth

    About Genesis1:26

    Believing that God was speaking to angels, you then suggest that God, who said, “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:
    made man IN THE IMAGE OF GOD AND ALSO OF THE ANGELS….???

    Do you believe that then!?

    🙏

    #942407
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……..Your like a breath of fresh air to me and I believe Jodi also,   I see the “Spirit of truth in you” , I reconize it by the soundness of your words.  My hope is you will bring more “truth” to this site, and that we may all grow to a Better understanding of our scriptures.

    “may the LORD, bless you and keep you, may the LORD  make his face to shine upon you,  and be gracious unto you, may the LORD lift up his countanance upon you , and give you peace”.

    Peace and love to you and yours,  Desire Truth………gene

    #942408
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….You remind me of a tennis ball being bounced off  walls of deception,  saying I was not “quoting” the scriptures correctly is a lie,  and you well know that. I am quoting them “exactly as they are written”,  in the king James bible.   

    Because those scriptures go against you and your false teachings, is your problem not mine,  as I have said before,  if you “TRULY” believed Jesus, you would believe what He said. And I quoted “EXACTLY” what the King James bible said he said.

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

     

     

    #942409
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    That’s a good question! Was man made in the image of God and the angels? Verse 27 would suggest no, as man was made specifically in God’s own image (and likeness) and not the angles. The point of the comment was to show God does interact with the heavenly body and the “us” and “our” (with a Hebraic understanding) was believed to be the heavenly body God spoke to. With this understanding, the modern teaching of a preexisting Jesus and the use this verse to support the trinity doctrine are brought into question. What is the truth?

    Now that said, why did God say in “our image” and “our likeness”, what is the Hebrew meaning of “image” and “likeness”? Are they synonyms or are they distinct? Not sure if it’s of any significance; but it’s how my mind works…over analyze.

    I presume your user name is in reference to the church in Berea that Paul visited in Acts 17…so let’s dig into this and discover something together.

    #942412
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi DesireTruth,

    Since man was not created both in the image and likeness of God and angels, the fact remains that the biblical text remains as the foundation.
    And the only possibility that remains to be put forward is that it is the Son of God.
    John1 and 17 are there among other things to confirm this great truth 👉 He was with God in the BIGINNING BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

    And God say, let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

    For Genesis 1:26 to be true, the Son must be in the perfect image and likeness of the Father.

    Paul says this when he writes about Jesus
    👉 Who being the brightness of his glory,(of God) and the express image of his person/substance/essence. 👉hupostasis)
    (Hebrews1:3)

    👉And in Colossians 1:15
    Who is the image of the invisible God….

    🙏

    #942414
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Desire Truth,

    You: No one gave a concise answer to why John didn’t just say “Jesus” in the opening of the book, why use “word”.

    Me: First and foremost, John’s Gospel is entirely spiritual, and one must be spiritually minded in order to understand it, never mind accepting it. Now in view of this, Jesus is a proper name, while the name “word” is definitely spiritual and carries various spiritual tasks with it, of which one, in particular, is precisely the task of the voice buried and talking within all souls/spirits as the engrafted “WORD” from the very beginning in the HEART of the first-ever creature Lucifer in order for God to communicate directly with all His eventual creatures from then on. Other tasks are that of ETERNAL LIFE, and SPIRIT/MEDIATOR between God and His creatures, as I will show you further down.

    You: I thought you said it was “crystal clear”! Your explanation was anything but clear and seems to add more to the confusion.

    Me: It was my first post to you, and through it, we definitely now are more acquainted and in a position to understand our maturity, mentality, and aim for participating in this forum.

    You: How can God have no beginning, yet have a beginning? Seems contradictory.

    Such language does not apply when we are discussing God and Hi spiritual processes, all possible for God, and keep in mind that God is A PERFECT PARADOX. Hereunder are some examples:

    “I did not come to judge the world.” (John 12:47)
    “I came into this world for judgment.” (John 9:39)

    “We are worthless servants.” (Luke 17:10)
    “We are his workmanship.” (Ephesians 2:10)

    “Blessed are those who hunger.” (Matthew 5:6)
    “No one who comes to me will ever be hungry.” (John 6:35)

    “Take up my yoke and learn from me.” (Matthew 11:29)
    “Don’t submit again to a yoke.” (Galatians 5:1)

    “The Father judges impartially according to each one’s work.” (1 Peter 1:17)
    “The Father, in fact, judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22)

    “Everything is futile.” (Ecclesiastes 1:2)
    Everything is meaningful—“Whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God.” (1 Corinthians 10:31)

    “Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works.” (Matthew 5:16)
    “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them.” (Matthew 6:1)

    “Test me in this way.” (Malachi 3:10)
    “Do not test the Lord your God.” (Luke 4:12)

    “He will be named…Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)
    “Don’t assume that I came to bring peace.” (Matthew 10:34)

    Now I said:

    IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD….

    GOD HAS NO BEGINNING, but in that very instant He had a BEGINNING, HIDDEN IN HIS OWN “WORD”, ALSO A SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, THE EVENTUAL AND ETERNAL ABODE OF GOD AD EXTRA IN ORDER FOR GOD TO CREATE ALL BY “THE WORD”

    To be more specific and also super simple:

    In that very instant when God initiated creation, FROM WITHIN HIMSELF/AD INTRA, He pronounced His very first “WORD”/EMANATED A SPIRIT OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF/AD EXTRA, not in the way we do for sure, we are not spirits. Well hinted out in John12:28-30. In fact THE BIG BANG. From then on God started creation, and for the first-ever time He was both as He was in Himself, and in creation outside of Himself, but buried and hidden within “THE WORD” SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, in the endless spirits of light emanated from God, which enlightened the entire infinite existence, then in pitch darkness, in order for God to create all by this SPIRIT OF LIGHT,

    “THE WORD”  spoken of God.

    Now let’s read John1:1

    1IN the beginning was the Word,

    Pronounced by God from within Himself, THE BIG BANG, A SPIRIT as explained above.

    and the Word was with God,

    God was within this SPIRIT His eternal abode, as THE SOURCE of creation.

    Notice the opposite state between the Father and the Son. Before creation, the Son was/is in the bosom of the Father, on creation the BIG BANG, the Son left the Father, and within the Son was the Father BURIED and HIDDEN LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, for the sake of creation NO MATTER WHO AND WHAT AT ALL COSTS. Thus between the Father and Creation was

    “THE WORD “spoken of God, Jesus the Son of Man to be, attention please as

    ETERNAL LIFE, SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, and the direct COMMUNICATION between God and His Creatures, plus that in this state, while the Father IS shielded by the Son from the least intention of sin, all creatures NO MATTER WHO and WHAT exist totally in their free will, simply PROTECTED  from the Father, as between them and the Father there is precisely

    Jesus the Son of Man sacrificed as

    THE ENGRAFTED WORD, A SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, and ETERNAL LIFE!

    and the Word was God.

    Without “THE WORD” A SPIRIT, in this most vital task, creation was not possible. Well hinted out in

    John15:1 I AM the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    John1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    You: What is “ad intra” and “ad extra”, never heard these terms before and sounds like a man made way to explain a man made theology. Personally, I like simple; so, let’s keep it super simple!

    Again, we are discussing God, God is a SPIRIT, and using SPIRITUAL terms NO MATTER THEIR ORIGIN, attributed to God’s SPIRITUAL work we understand more what in actual fact we are talking about and discern more truth.

    opera ad intra & opera ad extra

    This division of attributes, though listed together in [Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 2], relies upon a standard way of explaining God’s person and work, namely, his opera ad intra (internal work) and opera ad extra (external work). In other words, God can be considered either absolutely separately from his creation, or relatively, as he is related to his creation. As Johannes Wollebius (1589-1629) notes, “Both essential and personal works include those affecting God alone [ad intra] and those whose effects are felt outside of God [ad extra].” Likewise he states, “Those works of God which have their object outside of him are either immanent and internal, or outgoing and external” (J. V. Fesko, The Theology of the Westminster Standards, 100).

     

    You: In James 1:21, you state the “engrafted word” relates back to John1:1 and a reference to Christ – WHAT?!?!?

    Please read verses 19-25 and place verse 21 in context of what was written. We are to be doers and not hearers of this engrafted/implanted word. When I read this my understanding is to be doers of the word.

    So what is the engrafted/implanted word? 

    What is this “word” we are to be doing? Is this word the 10 Commandments? Rev 22:14 states we must DO God’s commandments to have the right to the Tree of Life.

    In view of the above, you have more clarity regarding the engrafted word.

    It is called the ENGRAFTED WORD! WHY?

    engraft is when something is joined to the extent that the two become

    one permanently

    As explained above the very first act by God was when He pronounced His “WORD”. A SPIRIT, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE. Now in that precise moment, GOD, ALL-KNOWING, IMPLANTED  THIS WORD, SPIRIT, SACRIFICED AS ONE SUBSTANCE FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION WITHIN ALL THE ENDLESS SPIRITS EMANATED FROM GOD ONCE CREATION BEGAN. John1:1

    Now let’s read

    James 1 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.23For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. 24For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. 25But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    In the above it is evidently clear that the WORD mentioned above is precisely THIS ENGRAFTED WORD, SPIRIT, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN WITHIN OUR HEARTS, OUR ETERNAL LIFE, TALKING ALL THE TIME TO GUIDE US. John1:1

     Heb 4:12, the word of God is living, active, sharper, piercing, and discerning.

    What/who is the word of God? Homework: do a search on “word of God” in your favorite Bible program (I use Xiphos)

    and tell me this is Christ.

    Perfect as I explained throughout this post!

    But to be more precise, the “WORD” mentioned in Hebrews is only THE SON OF MAN, AS A SPIRIT EMANATED FROM GOD IN THE VERY BEGINNING John1:1.

    Now, Jesus was born with two natures, FULLY GOD in the Son of God, Jesus ‘divine nature, WHO COULD NOT DIE, OF THE HOLY GHOST, and FULLY MAN, in the Son of Man, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, WHO DIED and on His death became one substance with the Son of God, IN THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE AS

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN John 13:32

    To be clear

    JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, THE MAN, SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY (THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL IN HIM)  THROUGH HIS PERFECT LIFE,  EVEN BEFORE HE SUFFERED HIS PASSION. Luke 13;32 Thus He was ready to be SACRIFICED FOR OUR SAKE, attention please:

    IN ORDER TO GIVE HIS DEAD BODY TO US ON HIS RESURRECTION. 1Peter3-5, BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH, HE HAD TO GIVE BACK HIS BODY SPIRITUALIZED AND

    IN FULL GLORY John17:1,5

    TO THE ONE WHO FURNISHED IT, GOD THE FATHER! Hebrews 10:5 AS

    GODMAN,

    JESUS CHRIST 

    FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WHEN

    GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #942415
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Berean,

    Since Jesus was with God at the foundation of the world and is the one God is speaking with, that would mean there were two separate beings of the “godhead” in heaven at creation. Having two beings does not support the monotheistic faith the Jews have? Deut 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord”. However, jumping to John 1:1 and Jesus being the “word” and therefore God. How exactly does this work? I think we have a problem…

     

    #942416
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @ Gene,
    Thank you for your kind words, I am just someone searching for truth in a world filled with lies. No idea how what I share will be received, time will tell. 🙂

    #942417
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Since Jesus was with God at the foundation of the world and is the one God is speaking with, that would mean there were two separate beings of the “godhead” in heaven at creation. Having two beings does not support the monotheistic faith the Jews have?

    I don’t see the problem Desiretruth. Logically speaking, if we set aside scripture for a moment, someone would have to be the first to be with God. Further, that someone would have to be very special. Perhaps more special than anyone else except for God himself. This fits perfectly with The Book of John. The Word was the first to be with God.

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