John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #942305
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him an eternal kingdom,

    Me: THIS SON OF MAN, Jodi, PRE-EXISTED AS SON OF MAN,

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven,

    but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven. 

    Thus He, I repeat PRE-EXISTED as SON OF MAN,

    came down from heaven, knowing that His Father promised Him AN ETERNAL KINGDOM, by which kingdom, AT THE VERY END

    God WOULD BE ALL IN ALL,

    AS THE KING OF THE UNIVERSES FOR ETERNITY! Well asserted hereunder in:

    1 Corinthians 15: Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But every one in his own order:

    the firstfruits Christ,

    then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming. 24Afterwards the end,

    when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father,

    when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. 

    25For he must reign,

    until he hath put all his enemies under his feet.

     26And the enemy death shall be destroyed last:

    For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith, 27All things are put under him;

    undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him. 

    28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

    then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him,

    that God may be all in all. 

    Now answer, Jodi and Gene,

    If as you WELL said that

     This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him

    an eternal kingdom,

    Me: HOW IS IT THAT THIS SUPPOSED ETERNAL KINGDOM PROMISED BY THE FATHER TO HIS SON, 

    THIS SON OF MAN,

    WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN,

    AT THE VERY END IS GIVEN TO GOD,  TO BE

    ALL  IN ALL FOR ETERNITY?

    WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS SON OF MAN THEN, Jodi?

    WHERE WOULD THIS SON OF MAN, while God would be all in all, 

    ENDS UP?

    HE DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL THRONE NO?

    AS ETERNAL KING! AGAIN, OVER HIS SUPPOSED 

    ETERNAL KINGDOM?

    YOU WON’T ANSWER Jodi and Gene,

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT  YOUR ANSWER

    WOULD ERADICATE ENTIRELY YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF!

    You: is he where ALL THE FULLNESS DWELLS, as ALL THINGS are reconciled to God through him as he is the man who God from the beginning declared would FULFILL ALL OF HIS WILL.

    Me: THE FACT THAT THIS SON OF MAN PRE-EXISTED, AS

    THE FIRST AND THE BEGINNING  BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED AS

    THE ONLY EMBODIMENT OF GOD WHERE ALL THE FULLNESS DWELLED.

    THE ONLY GENUINE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD!

    THE ONLY GENUINE FORM AND SHAPE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD!

    WHERE GOD WAS ALL IN ALL IN HIM! Well said by you hereunder:

    You: This Son of Man who shed his blood is he who is the image of the invisible God,

    he who is a firstborn of a New Creation,

    the firstborn of the dead giving him preeminence/

    TO BE FIRST.

    Me: YES Jodin and Gene,

    FIRST OF ALL THE FIRSTS OF

    GOD’S ENTIRE SPIRITUAL WORK FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!

    I Mean:

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, THE SON OF MAN TO BE,  WITHIN ALL THE HEARTS OF ALL CREATURES NO MATTER WHO, HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN AS

    THE FIRST MAN,

    THE FIRST WOMAN,

    THE FIRST, SON, CAIN THROUGH SEX,

    THE FIRST SON, ABLE, NOT THROUGH SEX,

    THE FIRST WHO WENT AS HUMAN TO HEAVEN, IN ENOCH,

    THE FIRST SAVIOUR IN NOAH,

    THE FIRST FATHER IN ABRAHAM,

    THE FIRST SON OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT IN ISAAC,

    THE FIRST SON OF GOD’S PEOPLE IN JACOB/ISRAEL,

    THE FIRST KING OVER ALL ISRAEL IN DAVID,

    AND ALL THE REST, 

    CONFIRMED BY YOU HEREUNDER UNAWARE OF:

    You: Without this man nothing would have been made that was made. 

    Jesus is the first human to inherit God’s Spirit forever more, where he thus walks in all of God’s ways and thus has eternal life and thus is an eternal Son. Our hope is to be joint heirs with him,

    to drink of the same cup of the One Spirit that he drinks of.  

    TELL US Jodi and Gene!

    WHO IS THIS SPIRIT?

    SCRIPTURE PLEASE:

    IN THE MEANTIME READ:

    2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus,

    hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 9But you are not in the flesh,

    but in the spirit,

    if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ,

    he is none of his.

    John 15:5 I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942314
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    You

    Hi Jodi,
    This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him an eternal kingdom,
    Me: THIS SON OF MAN, Jodi, PRE-EXISTED AS SON OF MAN,
    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven,
    but he that descended from heaven,
    the Son of man who is in heaven. 
    Thus He, I repeat PRE-EXISTED as SON OF MAN, 

     

    Me

    I sincerely believe that you are making a big mistake with this.

    Jesus did not pre-exist as the son of man, but as Paul said to the Philippians he was thé Son of God” in FORM of God”
    There is a big difference all the same, don’t you think.

    And what’s next

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him THE FORM of a servant, and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:

    SO

    1). IN FORM OF GOD

    2)…IN FORM A HUMAN SERVANT (on earth)

    🙏

     

    #942315
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……Don’t get to discourage, it just haven’t been given to them to know the truth yet, Even though we have presented it to them clearly, over and over.

    remember what Jesus said,…..“no man “CAN”, come to me, except the Father which has sent me “DRAW” him, and l will raise him up at the last day.

    Satan has so mislead  nearly all of Christendom , just as Paul Said they would in “2Ths2” 

    We need patient endurance, and hold firm until the end Jodi.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………Gene

     

     

     

    #942319
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You: I sincerely believe that you are making a big mistake with this.

    Me: First and foremost, I THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY AND I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO ASK A DIRECT HONEST QUESTION AS YOU DID FOR A VERY, VERY, LONG TIME SINCE THE MOMENT I STARTED REVEALING GOD’S MYSTERIES,  ATTRIBUTED TO

    OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER OF ALL HUMANITY IN FLESH AND BLOOD,

    JESUS CHRIST,

    THANKS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT HE HEARD ME AS JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED HEREUNDER:

    John16:13 But when he,

    the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

    For he shall not speak of himself;

    but what things soever he shall hear,

    he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you.

    Reflect on the above Berean, THE HOLY GHOST SPEAK NOTHING CONCERNED HIMSELF BUT CONCERNING THE MYSTERIES ATTRIBUTED TO JESUS. Again asserted hereunder:

    14He shall glorify me;

    because he shall receive of mine,

    and shall show it to you.

    Now I can tell you beforehand, that since you are the only person who sincerely asked me this type of reply, and specifically asked a direct question regarding THE MYSTERY BEHIND THE TITLE OF

    “THE SON OF MAN”

    I can see and HONESTLY BELIEVE that the Holy Spirit also is GUIDING ME, in this case by using you in order for HIM TO WORK THROUGH ME, BE CLEAR,

    and REVEAL THINGS to you, and to all those who HONESTLY read my posts, IN SEARCH OF THE TRUTH.

    Thus, GIVE ROOM the Holy Spirit within, and first and foremost in full humility

    ASK Him to give you light, plus, perform any charitable act,

    ALL FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST.

     15All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and show it to you. 

    You: Jesus did not pre-exist as the son of man, but as Paul said to the Philippians he was thé Son of God” in FORM of God”

    There is a big difference all the same, don’t you think.

    Me:  HELL OF A DIFFERENCE, IN A WAY!

    The title SON OF GOD, IS ALSO A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE from the title

    THE SON OF MAN!

    DON’T YOU THINK?

    NOW I WOULD ASK TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS AND FOR NOW, I MUST LEAVE!

    WHO IS ETERNAL:

    THE SON OF GOD,  JESUS, OF THE HOLY GHOST, A SPIRITGenesis 1:2 OR

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT, John6:63

    THE NEXT ONE:

    WHO WAS FIRST AS THE GENUINE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD, between these two spirits

    BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED!

     

    And what’s next

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him THE FORM of a servant, and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:

    Me: THERE’S A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE ALSO,BETWEEN

    THE LIKENESS OF MAN and

    THE SON OF MAN! IN GOD’S TERMS THOUGH!

    SO

    1). IN FORM OF GOD

    WHO was in the FORM  of God?

    the Holy Ghost, A SPIRIT, or “THE WORD” A SPIRIT WHO WAS MADE FLESH!

    2)…IN FORM A HUMAN SERVANT (on earth)

    WHO EMPTIED HIMSELF?

    the Holy Ghost, A SPIRIT, or “THE WORD” A SPIRIT WHO WAS MADE FLESH!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942321
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Carmel

    You

    NOW I WOULD ASK TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS AND FOR NOW, I MUST LEAVE!

    WHO IS ETERNAL:

    THE SON OF GOD,  JESUS, OF THE HOLY GHOST, A SPIRIT,  Genesis 1:2 OR

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT, John6:63

    THE NEXT ONE:

    WHO WAS FIRST AS THE GENUINE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD, between these two spirits

    BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED! 

     

    Me

    The subject is: Did Jesus pre-exist as the son of man?

    my answer remains the same
    YOUR QUESTIONS JUST CONFUSE THINGS.

    ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THE SON OF GOD PRE-EXISTED, HE WAS “IN THE FORM OF GOD”
    HE WAS GOD, HE WAS WITH THE GOD (THE FATHER) AND ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM.
    AND HE WAS MADE FLESH….

    🙏

    #942335
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOUR QUESTIONS JUST CONFUSE THINGS.

    ME: Let’s see.

    WHO IS ETERNAL:

    THE SON OF GOD,  JESUS, OF THE HOLY GHOST, A SPIRIT,  Genesis 1:2 OR

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT, John6:63

     

    THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN ARE TWO SEPARATE SPIRITS.

    BUT THEY ARE BOTH JESUS’!

    YOU IN FLESH and YOUR SOUL ARE BOTH YOU, A HUMAN BEING!

     “BEREAN”

    BUT ORIGINALLY AT ONE STAGE, TWO SEPARATE SPIRITS.

    THE SON OF GOD, IS JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, OF THE HOLY GHOST, A SPIRIT, ETERNAL,  PRE-EXISTED, while

    THE SON OF MAN, IS JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD THE FATHER, ALSO A SPIRIT, NOT ETERNAL, IN A WAY, IT HAD TO BE SPOKEN FIRST, IN ORDER TO EXIST AS SUCH, 

    BUT STILL PRE-EXISTED, AND HAD A BEGINNING, 

    PRECISELY, AS SOON AS GOD PRONOUNCED “THE WORD” FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME:

    “LET THERE BE LIGHT”

    IN THE VERY BEGINNING John 1:1, Genesis 1:1

     

    THE NEXT ONE:

    WHO WAS FIRST AS THE GENUINE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD, between these two spirits

    BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED?

    THIS IS QUITE EASY NOW:

    THE SON OF GOD AS A SPIRIT, WAS NOT THE GENUINE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD! GOD IS A SPIRIT, NOT PHYSICAL, AND THE SON OF GOD IS ALSO A SPIRIT, NOT PHYSICAL, ETERNAL ONE SUBSTANCE WITH GOD AND DISTINCT.

    THUS, AS THE FIRST GENUINE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD, TO BE CLEAR:

    THE FIRST-EVER EMBODIMENT OF GOD,

    THE FIRST-EVER CARRIER OF GOD,

    BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED WAS DEFINITELY,

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD! IN THE VERY BEGINNING John 1:1

    THE SON OF MAN!

    THE PHYSICAL SIDE OF THE ENTIRE CREATION! ALL IN/BY HIM! Genesis 1:1

    John1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

    You: The subject is: Did Jesus pre-exist as the son of man?

    my answer remains the same

    Me: MY ANSWER ALSO REMAINS THE SAME, BUT MORE SPECIFIED!

    THE SON OF MAN, PRE-EXISTED AS SOON AS

    “THE WORD” OF GOD WAS PRONOUNCED AND

    “THE WORD” WAS MADE FLESH/PHYSICAL 

    THE FIRST-EVER EMBODIMENT OF GOD,  THE FIRST-EVER CARRIER OF GOD. before anything was ever created. John17:5 

    John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven,

    but he that descended from heaven,

    the Son of man who is in heaven. 

     

    Thus Jesus, I repeat PRE-EXISTED as SON OF MAN,

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942345
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    WHO IS ETERNAL:

    THE SON OF GOD,  JESUS, OF THE HOLY GHOST, A SPIRIT,  Genesis 1:2 OR

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT, John6:63

    THE NEXT ONE:

    WHO WAS FIRST AS THE GENUINE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD, between these two spirits

    BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED!

    Jesus Christ was begotten.

    The Father was not begotten.

    He is not the begotten Father.

    #942346
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and Gene,

    Me: Answer,

    If as you, Jodi WELL said that

     This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him

    an eternal kingdom,

    HOW IS IT THAT THIS SUPPOSED ETERNAL KINGDOM PROMISED BY THE FATHER TO HIS SON,

    THIS SON OF MAN,

    WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, John 3:13

    AT THE VERY END IS GIVEN TO GOD,  TO BE

    ALL  IN ALL FOR ETERNITY?

     

    WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS SON OF MAN THEN, Jodi?

    WHERE WOULD THIS SON OF MAN, while God would be all in all,

    ENDS UP?

    HE DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL THRONE NO?

    AS ETERNAL KING! AGAIN, OVER HIS SUPPOSED

    ETERNAL KINGDOM?

    YOU WON’T ANSWER Jodi and Gene,

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT  YOUR ANSWER

    WOULD ERADICATE ENTIRELY YOUR CORRUPTED BELIEF!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942347
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Me: WHO IS ETERNAL:

    THE SON OF GOD,  JESUS, OF THE HOLY GHOST, A SPIRIT,  Genesis 1:2 OR

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT, John6:63

    THE NEXT ONE:

    WHO WAS FIRST AS THE GENUINE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD, between these two spirits

    BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED!

     

    You: Jesus Christ was begotten.

    The Father was not begotten.

    He is not the begotten Father.

     

    In my Question above I never referred to the Father!

    So, how did you ask the above question?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942364
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….There is no sound teaching in you, you have been deceived for so long and trying to change what our Bible text says, so long  ,  I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone so screwed up as you are.  It may be because you actually believe you have the Spirit of truth “in” you , but no one with the “Spirit of truth”,  in them could say the things you are telling us.  Satan has fooled you,  into thinking your being guided by the Spirit of truth, when in fact you are simply doing his work of confusion and deception for him.  I really feel sorry for you Carmel.

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel………..gene

    #942366
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    For by REASON OF

    If You wrote it on Google traduction

    In greek You have

    ΓΙΑ ΛΟΓΟ ΤΟΥ
    GIA LOGO TOU

    ME: 

    Thanks for the info, but by REASON OF is still different from that of, by MEANS OF.

    By REASON of directly supports clear given scriptures. By Means of creates contradiction and confusion, it produces a lie as it’s against other clear passages. Our heavenly Father by Himself through His power and wisdom UTTERS HIS VOICE and by such all things are created even thrones and dominions and He does it BY REASON OF and FOR the Son of Man who was promised to be made into God’s Son, promised to be settled into God’s House, promised to be exalted to God’s right hand and promised to receive an eternal throne ruling over all of the new heaven and earth.

    Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. 12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. 14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Isaiah 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

    Berean, to turn and says that the human promised to inherit all things being appointed to then rule over it being LED by the Creators Spirit, was actually a pre-existing god who actually uttered his voice to create all things, is pure foolishness, it’s a direct lie against the CLEAR given word of God.

    YHVH our heavenly Father created earth Himself through the utterance of His voice and He did it FOR the purpose that it be inhabited and His promise is that a Son of Man will rule over it all through being LED by His Spirit and those that are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

    You ignore clear scriptures and don’t apply them to other passages and by such you make false claims of what those passages teach us.

     

     

    #942367
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    John.1
    [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, 

    and the Word was God. 

    [2] The same was in the beginning with God. 

    [3] All things were made by him; 

    and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

     

    🙏

    #942368
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…….There is no sound teaching in you, you have been deceived for so long and trying to change what our Bible text says, so long  ,  I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone so screwed up as you are.  It may be because you actually believe you have the Spirit of truth “in” you , but no one with the “Spirit of truth”,  in them could say the things you are telling us.  Satan has fooled you,  into thinking your being guided by the Spirit of truth, when in fact you are simply doing his work of confusion and deception for him.  I really feel sorry for you Carmel.

    Peace and love to you and yours Carmel………..gene

    Me: The above is your full post.

    Now instead of all your normal BLAH, BLAH, and BLAHS, WHY DON’T YOU BE SPECIFIC and justify yourself? With your post above you only confirmed that,

     EITHER  you are not capable to contradict me specifically,

    OBVIOUSLY through scriptures, or that what I posted not only is definitely not within your understanding, but through PRIDE, you are not ready to even ask a mere question, and for a reason or another, SIMPLY PREOCCUPIED that you might end up being ridiculed. 

    You:  Satan has fooled you,  into thinking your being guided by the Spirit of truth, when in fact you are simply doing his work of confusion and deception for him.  I really feel sorry for you Carmel.

    ME: DON’T FEEL SORRY FOR ME AT ALL Gene, 

    JUST PROVE AND JUSTIFY WHAT YOU’RE SAYING THAT’S ALL.

    IN THE MEANTIME,

    AS  I ALWAYS SAY

    MINE STANDS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ.

     

     

    #942369
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    WOW!!!!

    This debate concerning who the “word” is in John 1:1 has been going on for almost 20 years, almost 24,000 comments, and still no agreement of who or what the “word” is! We have this side pitted against that side, with both sides claiming they are correct. This is insane! It’s like we have traveled back in time to 325AD and are sitting at the Council of Nicea! Stunning to say the least!

    Late to join in, but this topic (among others) has caused me to dig deeper than I ever expected and has turned my thinking upside down. Hopefully I can share some of what I have discovered on this journey and get some feedback as we grow.

    I had some questions that started me on this journey: can anyone explain why John would call Jesus the “word” verses using his name directly? Why would John be so “cryptic” in the opening of the book; yet, use plain language in the rest? Is it possible there is a misunderstanding of what John was trying to convey? Would the first century church have had the same understanding we have today?

    DesireTruth

    #942370
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes 20 years. Multiply that by 100 and you have 2000 years and that is how long people have been debating this subject.

    I was here in this forum 20 years ago, but many have left and many have joined in this conversation over the years.

    #942371
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I had some questions that started me on this journey: can anyone explain why John would call Jesus the “word” verses using his name directly? Why would John be so “cryptic” in the opening of the book; yet, use plain language in the rest?

    Because it is a revelation.

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant.

    Revelations are light and the light gets brighter.

    #942376
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Desire Truth,

    You: I had some questions that started me on this journey: can anyone explain why John would call Jesus the “word” verses using his name directly? Why would John be so “cryptic” in the opening of the book; yet, use plain language in the rest?

     

    Me: To me John is not that cryptic at all, for the simple reason that John, was AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL. I mean John made it clear that the “THE WORD” of God was the very first ever act by God in the very first ever beginning  AD INTRA, when He pronounced it and said:

    “LET THERE BE LIGHT”

    Honestly speaking the above words were pronounced by GOD’S LOVE,

    the Holy Spirit, the VOICE OF GOD.  THUS:

    IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD….

    GOD HAS NO BEGINNING, but in that very instant He had a BEGINNING, HIDDEN IN HIS OWN “WORD”, ALSO A SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, THE EVENTUAL AND ETERNAL ABODE OF GOD AD EXTRA IN ORDER FOR GOD TO CREATE ALL BY “THE WORD”

    Now at that precise moment in time, the entire INFINITE EXISTENCE then in pitch darkness God’s abode throughout, was LIT, “THE BIG BANG”!

    “THE WORD” of God, AS I SAID ABOVE, A SPIRIT, the Son of Man to be, mysteriously was hidden within all the endless spirits EMANATED from God as the LIGHT and ETERNAL LIFE,  precisely within the hearts of all these endless spirits,  by which spirits as a substance, God hidden within and through “THE WORD” His genuine abode AD EXTRA created and creates the entire eventual creatures. Now “THE WORD” hidden within the hearts of these spirits was both the only direct communication and mediator, between God and His creatures.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and

    reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit,

    of the joints also and the marrow,

    and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of THE HEART.

    In the above, it is evidently clear that  the HEART, is the eternal abode of “THE WORD”  Jesus, the Son of Man, plus that  HE IS ALSO THE MEDIATOR/SPIRIT BY THE WORDS ABOVE:

    reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit,

    of the joints also and the marrow,

    James 1:21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness,

    with meekness receive the engrafted WORD, which is able to save your souls.

     

    …the ENRAFTED “WORD” PRECISELY FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IN John 1:1

    John14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him:

    If any one love me, he will keep MY WORD,

    and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

    24He that loveth me not, keepeth not my WORDS.

    And THE WORD which you have heard, is not mine;

    but the Father’s who sent me.

    OBVIOUSLY IN THE ABOVE JESUS MADE IT CLEAR THAT

    HE IS THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD!

    John12:47 And if any man hear my words, and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 

    48He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him;

    THE WORD that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Again in the above, Jesus confirmed that

    HE IS “THE WORD” spoken of God and

    HE WILL JUDGE THOSE WHO RECEIVE NOT AND DESPISE HIS WORDS.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942388
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire truth………Simple,  you need to just believe what Jesus told us and you have your answer,   Jesus said  (not me)…..“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him who sent me”.  Simple as that,  those that believe Jesus know by Jesus’ own words, he, “himelf” is not the words of God himself, he was quoting as a “MEDIATOR”,would to us, the words of God.  He never took the position of actually himself being the word of God himself.   

    False religion has changed the text to try to make it appear as though the word,  “word” was a individual person, by Captializing it.  Remember what Jesus said ,(not me),…. “Father this is eternal life , that they might come to know “you”  the “ONLY” TRUE GOD”,  and Jesus Christ who you have sent.”     

    God and his word are one and the same person, just as you and your words are one and the same person,  no one else can be your word, neither , nor can be GOD the Father’s words either,  but we can “quote” someone’s words, just as Jesus and the prophets did God the Father’s words to us.  Just as scripture says,  (not me),……“God who spoke to us at Sunday time through the prophets  has in these last day spoke to us through a Son”      NONE of that says that the prophets, nor the Son was actually GOD the FATHER’S word themselves, but that they spoke “HIS” word to us. Just that simple.

    Peace and love to you and your Desire truth……….gene

    #942389
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    False religion has changed the text to try to make it appear as though the word,  “word” was a individual person, by Captializing it.  

    Me

    Can you seriously prove this?
    I doubt.
    But always try.

    🙏

    #942390
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    If “the word” are only spoken words
    why then John said:

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD

    GENE ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD, NOT SPOKEN WORDS EVEN IF THEY COME FROM GOD.

    When God speaks, only GOD IS GOD NOT HIS WORDS.

    🙏

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