John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,601 through 23,620 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942247
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Do you make the connection of Jesus saying that God was IN him to the fact that we are told that God gave him His Spirit without measure?

    #942257
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Jesus offered himself because God commanded him to do so,

    Me: Produce scripture please not your carnal-minded mentality with very respect. In the meantime read hereunder:

    Isaiah 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: Whom shall I send? and who shall go for us? And I said:

    Lo, here am I, send me.

    The above Jodi, whether you accept it or not IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

    DEPICTS JESUS PRE-EXITENCE AND HIS OFFER TO REDEEM HUMANITY.

    9And he said: Go, and thou shalt say to this people: Hearing, hear, and understand not: and see the vision, and know it not. 10Blind the heart of this people, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes: lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.

     

    Matthew 13:13 Therefore do I speak to them in parables: because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    14And the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled in them, who saith: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive.

    15For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut: lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

    You: it was God’s plan and as you said God’s will and Jesus obeyed.

    Jesus obeyed because he was the Son of Man who God had CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS,

    Me: Perfect Jodi, read the scripture again!

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:

    I have not spoken in secret from the beginning:

    The above Jodi is clear evidence of JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT, IT’S YOUR PIGEON! Keep on reading the TRUTH and keep on DENYING AS MENTIONED IN Isaiah 13:13-15 ABOVE.

    from the time BEFORE it was done, John1:1…

    I was there, 

    Now read what you just said above:

    You: Jesus obeyed because he was the Son of Man

    YOU JUST CONFIRMED THAT JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS THE SON OF MAN BEFORE CREATION, John 17:2, John 3:13, AND WAS SENT BY THE FATHER.

    You: who God had CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS,

    PERFECT AGAIN CONTINUE READ Isaiah 48:16

    and now the Lord God HADT SENT ME, and

    HIS SPIRIT.

    Notice the PRESENT PERFECT TENSE “HADT SENT ME”

    WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT, Jodi and Gene, 

    YOU BLIND PEOPLE!

    THE ABOVE IN THE PERSONAL PRONOUN “ME” IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, and “THE SPIRIT” IS A REFERENCE TO THE HOLY GHOST! READ AGAIN AND SWALLOW IT DOWN INTO YOUR GUTS.

    Isaiah 48:16……”I have not spoken in secret from the beginning:..” John1:1

    Now to the rest:

    17Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer,

    the Holy One of Israel: 

    I am the Lord thy God that teach thee profitable things,

    that govern thee in the way that thou walkest.

    Now to Jesus’ own words:

    Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi:

    for one is your Master, even Christ;

    and all ye are brethren.

    You: where God would hold his hand and keep him for to fulfill God’s covenant. 

    Perfect again, GOD HELD HIS HAND and KEPT HIM PRECISELY

    FROM THE VERY FIRST MOMENT HE SENT JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, A SPIRIT MENTIONED IN John3:13, and in Isaiah 48:16 ABOVE, FROM HEAVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS TO FULFILL GODS’ WORK, EVEN 

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev, 13:28

    THE PURE FACT THAT HE HELD AND KEPT HIM NO MATTER WHAT!

     

    More to come

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942268
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    Do you make the connection of Jesus saying that God was IN him to the fact that we are told that God gave him His Spirit without measure?  

    Me

    who is the WORD?
    That’s the title of this thread.

    The answer that the Bible gives and that I approve of is: THE SON OF GOD.

    HOWEVER, A WORD THAT GOD SPEAKS CANNOT BE GOD.

    FOR ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD, NOT A WORD THAT GOD SPEAKS.

    SO THIS MEANS THAT THE “WORD” OF JOHN 1:1 THAT WAS GOD IS MUCH MORE THAN A WORD THAT GOD SPOKEN, EVEN THOUGH THAT WORD SPOKEN IS VERY IMPORTANT.

    So let’s try to stay on topic:
    WHO IS THE WORD?

    🙏

    #942270
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    I am going to highlight this again for everyone.

    Does the chapter below give Jesus two names or just one name where that one name surrounds the word of God spoken by the prophets long ago?

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    All of the blue can be found in OT prophet writings which is the Word of God, from David, to Isaiah, to Daniel, to Joel, to Ezekiel, which all directly speak to the name that is WRITTEN King of kings and Lord of lords. 

    Revelation 19 does not teach that Jesus has been given two names with one name being, The Word of God, and it most certainly DOES NOT SPEAK AT ALL about a pre-existing Son of God existing as God’s Word creating heaven and earth in the beginning to then back up legitimacy as to why he has been given that name. 

    Quite the opposite, 

    Revelation 19 is directly showing how the name that is WRITTEN is called the word of God by giving us the word of God from the prophets that display the legitimacy as to why Jesus is given this name, King of kings and Lord of lords. 

     

    #942271
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    All things connect, this seems to be your problem and thus why you teach confusion and contradiction.

    You say that Jesus represents the Word as meaning he pre-existed as God’s only begotten Son and spoke creation into existence.

    What other passages speak regarding WHO Jesus is, including how he exists as a Son of God and when he was sent, has everything to do with John 1:1. I am absolutely not going off topic nor will I be going off topic in the future. Your interpretation of John 1:1 contradicts other passages, passages that make your interpretation impossible, convenient for you to say me discussing those passages is going off topic.

    In the beginning was the Word (eternal life Titus 1:2) and the Word (eternal life was indeed WITH God from the beginning 1 John 1:2) and the Word is God (as God is Himself eternal and He is the SOURCE of eternal life, which He prepared from the beginning to be fulfilled through one man’s righteousness, Romans 5, Isaiah 42 and 46).

    By such then all things were made by reason of this one man; and without this one man was not any thing made that was made. For God did not create all things for sin and death, He created humans to come to exist in His image having the many fruits of His Spirit living, being righteous unto eternal life. Such is Jesus, where he was an only begotten Son but now being raised from the dead receiving the promised Spirit, he is the firstfruits of them that slept and he is a firstborn of many, for we are promised also to be born of the Spirit to the measure that we are led by the Spirit in all ways, being thus joint heirs of the Spirit of God with Christ Jesus. All Sons of God being Led by the Spirit of God, God ALL IN ALL, God’s plan and purpose from the beginning.

     

    #942272
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    Berean,

    All things connect, this seems to be your problem and thus why you teach confusion and contradiction.

    You say that Jesus represents the Word as meaning he pre-existed as God’s only begotten Son and spoke creation into existence.

    Me

    In the beginning the Son of God existed and his primary title/name was to be “THE WORD OF GOD.”

    WORD OF GOD TO CREATE HEAVEN AND EARTH AND ITS INHABITANTS AND TO SUPPORT ALL THAT LIVE.
    THIS IS THE FIRST POINT TO SEIZE BEFORE ANY OTHERS.

    ….all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist…(Col.1:16,17)

    IN THE BIGINNING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

    IN THE BEGINNING, GOD HAD AN ONLY BEGOTTEN SON WHO WAS OMNIPOTENT, WITHOUT THAT, WE WOULDN’T BE HERE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

    🙏

     

    #942273
    carmel
    Participant

    .

     

     

     

    #942274
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi,  as I have said , “they are not of the truth, or they could easely understand what you and I  are saying”.  They have altogether become useless concerning the words of God, that was spoken unto us by the prophets and Jesus Christ.

    They will not be accepted, unless they “repent”.

    You have done an excellent Job of explaining and proving through our scriptures  “the truth, from our scriptures”, Jodi. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi………..gene

     

    #942283
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Who is the Word of God?

    All this dialogue, but this topic asks a simple question and the answer is found in scripture.

    Question: JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

    Answer: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    His name is Jesus, therefore he is Jesus.

    His name is the Word of God, therefore he is the Word of God.

    There appears to be a lot of skirting around this, but no one can debunk this truth unless they first debunk scripture.

    #942284
    Berean
    Participant

    It is easier to break an atom than to break a prejudice”
    Albert Einstein
    But by the grace of God it can be done….
    Our brother Paul told us, I can do everything THROUGH CHRIST WHO STRENGTHENS ME.

    Paul again:

    Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;(2Cor.10:5)

    Corinthians 1:19,27-29
    So it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And I will destroy the understanding of the intelligent.

    #942286
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To ALL……..Jesus is “called” the word of God” , because he does not tell us “his”  own words, but the words of God.  That is why he is “called” the word God, NO OTHER REASON,   Jesus plainly said (not me).  “The words I am telling you “ARE NOT” MY WORDS”.  but the words of him who sent me”.

    Question is, how many here, “actually” believe , Jesus, and what he said,  that the true question.  If you “truly believe Jesus, then you would know he HIMSELF, is not God the fathers words at all,  but he spoke “the Fathers words”. to us, “EXACTLY”  AS did the PROPHETS. 

    Scripture says, (not me) ,  ……“GOD SPOKE”,  in times past through the prophets. And in these “last days” , (thats the time from Jesus till now),  Has spoken to us by a Son.  NON OF THAT EVER MADE Jesus,  God the Fathers own words, but as a “MEDIATOR”,  he was giving us God the Fathers words,  just as the prophets did also.

    Just as it says…….“there is “ONE”, God, and  ONE “MEDIATOR” , between GOD and men,  THE “MAN” Jesus Christ”.   You simply believe it or not ,  those of the truth know the sound of the truth,  and believe it,  those of a lie believe that Jesus himself is God the Fathers words himself.
    Jesus himself is no more God the Fathers words, then saying an airplane is a real bird because it flies like a bird does.  No an airplane is not a bird because it flies like a bird does, even though they call it a bird,   Just that simple, for those who have the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH” IN THEM”.

    peace and love to you all and yours………Gene

     

    #942287
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    Jesus is “called” the word of God” , because he does not tell us “his”  own words, but the words of God.   

    Me

    It is true, Jesus on earth did not take personal initiatives, he always consulted his Father in prayer and the Spirit guided him in all things.

    But it WAS ALSO TRUE IN THE BIGINNING WHEN HE WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD.

    THE FATHER SAY ABOUT HIS SON

    In Hebrews 1:8-12

    But unto the Son he(God) saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    [9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    (10)And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    [11] They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
    [12] And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

    🙏

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #942292
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To ALL……..Jesus is “called” the word of God” , because he does not tell us “his”  own words, but the words of God.

    His name is the Word of God. Therefore, he is the Word of God.

    Just like you are Gene.

    Do I hear an amen?

    #942295
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer and Berean………Jesus said (not me)…….“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS,  but the words of him that sent me”. 

    Question is do you,  “truly”,  believe Jesus and what he himself said? 

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    #942296
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Jesus said (not me)…….“the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS,  but the words of him that sent me”. 

    Question is do you,  “truly”,  believe Jesus and what he himself said?  

    Me

    Yes I believe Jesus AND what he himself Saïd.

     

    #942300
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……. GOOD, Then you know Jesus himself is not God the Father’s words,  he is “called” the word of God , because he is telling God the Father’s  words.  Not because he  , “IS”  himself the word of God. 

    Remember Berean , Jesus is a “MEDIATOR ” ,  and that’s what mediators do , they tell us someone else’s words. “Not their own words”. 

    • Now with that knowledge you should be able to “PROPERLY ” understand the truth of John 1:1 .

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #942301
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Because the SON OF GOD SPEAKS THE WORDS OF GOD, HE IS CALLED “THE WORD OR THE WORD OF GOD”.

    JOHN 1:1 SAYS IT WAS SO IN THE BEGINNING, SO I KNOW WHO WAS THE ONE WHOM JOHN NAMES IN THE FIRST CHAPTER OF HIS EPISTLE.

    👉 IT IS YOU GENE WHO MUST RECOGNIZE AND ACCEPT THE ONE WHO IS NAMED IN JOHN 1

    👉”and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.”👈 JOHN 1:3

    👉…all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.👈 COL.1:16,17

    🙏

    #942302
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    Yet again you have taken a passage and ignored the surrounding context to make it fit your doctrine, and you continue to not apply scripture with scripture,

    Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit. 9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by (REASON OF) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (REASON OF) him, and FOR him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    Berean, just like in Revelation 19 where we are not being given 2 names, but ONE NAME where that name that is written, King of kings and Lord of lords, is called the word of God as it was spoken by the prophets, in Colossians 1 we are not being given 2 creations but ONE CREATION, the New Heaven and Earth.

    You are given context before verse 15 that Paul is speaking about the New Heaven and Earth, our hope that is laid up in heaven being partakers of the inheritance, translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son of who had shed his blood. 

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him an eternal kingdom, is he where ALL THE FULLNESS DWELLS, as ALL THINGS are reconciled to God through him as he is the man who God from the beginning declared would FULLFILL ALL OF HIS WILL. This Son of Man who shed his blood is he who is the image of the invisible God, he who is a firstborn of a New Creation, the firstborn of the dead giving him preeminence/ TO BE FIRST. Without this man nothing would have been made that was made. 

    Jesus is the first human to inherit God’s Spirit forever more, where he thus walks in all of God’s ways and thus has eternal life and thus is an eternal Son. Our hope is to be joint heirs with him, to drink of the same cup of the One Spirit that he drinks of.  

    This was all of God’s WORD from the beginning. 

    #942303
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Yet again you have taken a passage and ignored the surrounding context to make it fit your doctrine, and you continue to not apply scripture with scripture, 

    Me

    It is NOT my doctrine but the doctrine OF God.

    Anyone who reads the first chapter of John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit understands that the one named “THE WORD” is the Son of GOD.
    Even without reading REVELATION 19.

    🙏

    #942304
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: being thus joint heirs of the Spirit of God with Christ Jesus.

    Me: Jodi, there are no such
    TERMS as

    joint heirs of the Spirit of God with Christ Jesus.

    In the above, YOU ARE MISGUIDING OTHERS,

    You, WITH YOUR TWISTING OF SCRIPTURES, YOUR PERSONAL TACTICS, corruptly declared above that HUMANITY and CHRIST are equal AT ALL TIMES, WHICH FALSELY INDIRECTLY LIKE SAYING THAT JESUS IS NOT A REDEEMER WHILE HUMANITY DIDN’T REQUIRE A REDEEMER.

    Now let’s read the appropriate scripture:

     

    Romans 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received

    the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION OF SONS, whereby we cry: Abba (Father).

    16 For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God.

    17And if sons, heirs also;

     heirs indeed of God,

    and joint heirs with Christ:….

    Now to your misguiding teaching!

    In Romans 8:15  we have received

    the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION OF SONS, whereby we cry: Abba (Father).

    Jesus neither is an ADOPTED SON NOR  HE received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION, plus, THAT HE NEVER CRIED: ABBA (FATHER)

     

    ONLY once we are Joint heirs with Christ, we are heirs and sons of God,

    As only Jesus is both

    THE HEIR OF ALL THINGS and

    THE SON OF GOD! Well asserted in

    Hebrews 1:2 In these days hath spoken to us by HIS SON,

    whom he hath appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS.

    by whom also he made the world.

    ONLY JESUS CHRIST IS DIRECTLY ONE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE AND DISTINCT WITH GOD THE FATHER, ASSERTED HEREUNDER

    John17:1……. Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

    21That they all may be one,

    as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;

    that they also may be one in us;

    that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

    22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them;

    that they may be one, as we also are one:

    23I in them,

    and thou in me;

    that they may be made perfect in ONE:

     

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IS ONLY

    ONE SUBSTANCE IN CHRIST

    Well clear in

    Romans 8:1THERE is now therefore no condemnation

    to them that are in Christ Jesus,

    who walk not according to the flesh.

    2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus,

    hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 9But you are not in the flesh,

    but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you.

    Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ,

    he is none of his.

    WITHOUT CHRIST HUMANITY IS FUTILE!

     

    John 15:5 I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

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