John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,581 through 23,600 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #942204
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    I am not against the Word of God. (the verses you quoted)

    With regard to the MESSIAH, GOD WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED TO ANNOUNCE HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IF HIMSELF (THE MESSIAH) HAD NOT BEEN WITH HIM (GOD THE FATHER). WHAT IF HE WAS NOT GOD (John1)

    IT IS THE SON WHO OFFERED HIMSELF AS AN OFFERING FOR SIN.

    Behold, I come to do your will, O God (Heb.10:9)

    THE FATHER ACCEPTED THE SON’S OFFER

    AND THE FATHER WHO SO LOVED THE WORLD GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

    THE SON GAVE HIS LIFE

    Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. (John 10:17)

    THE SON HAS LITERALLY DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN TO ACCOMPLISH HIS MISSION:

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me (the Father) John 6:38)

    IT IS THE OWN SON OF GOD WHO WAS GIVEN AND SENT TO EARTH:

    Rom. 8
    [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending👉 HIS OWN SON 👉 in the likeness of sinful flesh 👈, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    HIS OWN SON   

    the brightness of his glory (Heb.1)

     

     WAS MADE FLESH 

    “IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH”

    And being FOUND in fashion as a MAN,

    he HUMBLED HIMSELF,

    and

    became OBEDIENT unto death,
    even the death of the cross.(Ph.2:8)

    🙏

    #942205
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not difficult to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    From verse 5 to 8

    I see the condescension of Christ to the human race
    HE WHO STATE IN THE FORM OF GOD AND WHO WAS GOD TOOK ON HIMSELF OUR HUMAN NATURE….etc….

    HE LOWERED SO THAT WE CAN BE ELEVATED,
    HIM RICH THAT HE WAS TOLD US PAUL
    HE WAS IMPOVERISHED IN ORDER TO ENRICH US

    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.(2Cor.8:9)

    JESUS ALSO SAID:
    HE WHO RISES WILL BE LOWERED AND HE WHO HIMSELF LOWER WILL BE HIGH. (Luke 14:11)

    JESUS HAS LOWERED HIMSELF IN EVERY SENSE OF THE TERM UNTIL BECOME SIN FOR US SO THAT WE BECOME GOD’S JUSTICE IN HIM.

    🙏

    #942206
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Your so screw up you can’t even understand that a person and his words , “ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING”, 

    you and your word are you and no one else, are you so ignorant you don’t realize,  that holds true even with God. the Father.

      Just as it does us.  

     

    Mr. GENIUS!

    ARE YOU SO IGNORANT THAT YOU PUT GOD IN THE SAME BASKET AS MERE HUMANS?

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT GOD AS A PERSON IS LIKE YOU AS A PERSON?

    YES OR NO? Read BEFORE YOU DARE TO ANSWER!

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts:

    nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    Gene, WHAT DOES THE ABOVE STATEMENT BY GOD TELL YOU?

    NO, YOU WON’T ANSWER, SO I TELL YOU:

    IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT

    GOD’S WAYS ARE NOT YOUR WAYS!

    Thus I add:

    NOR HIS WORD YOUR WORD! 

    CLEAR?

    Read and respect GOD AS GOD, AND HIS WAYS AS HIS WAYS! OR ELSE…….

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways,

    and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    so likewise GOD’S “WORD” IS ALSO ABOVE YOUR WORDS Mr. Genius!

    Keep on reading:

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be,

    DID YOU GET THAT Mr. Genius? attention now:

    which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void,

    ANSWER Gene,

    WHAT DOES YOUR WORD DO WHEN IT LEAVES YOUR MOUTH?

    DOES IT RETURN TO YOU AT LEAST?

    but it shall do whatsoever I please,

    DOES IT DO WHATEVER YOU PLEASE? 

    TO ME, IT SEEMS QUITE NOT IN RELATION TO WHAT YOU PREACH!

    OR PERHAPS MORE LIKELY 

    IT IS NOT YOUR WORD AT ALL BUT THE DEVIL’S WORD!

    and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    GO, AHEAD Gene, SEND YOUR WORD SOMEWHERE, WHO KNOWS….

    Now read what God’s words are in

    John 6:63....The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 

    Now tell us Gene, ARE YOUR WORDS SPIRIT or LIFE?

    NONE I SUPPOSE!  I tell you what they are

    LIES, BLA and BLA

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942207
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: People beheld his glory

    as he was full of truth

    as he had been the only mortal man to have been begotten of God’s Spirit without measure.

    Me, Jodi I’M AFRAID TRUTH IS NEITHER IN YOU NOR IN YOUR PREACHING FOR SURE!

     

     

     

     

    READ SCRIPTURES:

     

    Philipians2:5For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

    6Who being in the form of God,

    thought it NOT ROBERRY  to be EQUAL with God: 

    7But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant,

    being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 

    8He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 

    JESUS WAS NOT A MORTAL MAN THROUGH SIN.

    HE IS ETRNALLY SINLESS, HE OPTED TO BECOME LIKE MORTAL HUMANS, AND TO DIE LIKE HUMANS.

    John10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me:

    because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

     18No man taketh it away from me:

    but I lay it down of myself,

    and I have power to lay it down:

    and I have power to take it up again.

    This commandment have I received of my Father.

    JESUS HAS  POWER OVER  HIS OWN LIFE!

    HUMANS HAVE NO OPTION AT ALL, BUT MUST DIE!

     

    John1:17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time:

    the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of

    the only begotten Son of God. 

    JESUS IS BEGOTTEN OF GOD, NOT OF GOD’S SPIRIT!

     

    John14:6 Jesus saith to him:

    I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

     

    JESUS IS THE TRUTH, NOT HE WAS FULL OF TRUTH!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942211
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi, and as I already made clear, also Gene!

    I am not quite finished with your particular post above. 942189

    I feel that I must keep on

    HAMMERING BOTH YOU and Gene, FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH.

    You can remain SILENT as much as you please, it doesn’t affect me in any way, I am still going to debunk your preaching and belief every time you post, as I feel that I MUST do it.

    Thus, always guided by the Holy Spirit, here we go:

    Hereunder, you posted two particular scriptures, which seem

    they contradict themselves, as I will show you hereunder:

    1 Chronicles 17:11-14 teaches us that the son of David was promised to be made into God’s Son and

    that God would settle him into His House and into His Kingdom forever and that He would give him an eternal throne.

    1 Corinthians 15: 20-28 teaches us that the man raised first from the dead shall reign over all the earth putting down all rule and authority and the last enemy he will destroy is death itself and

    then he will give the kingdom over to God our Father……

    As you can read above in 1Chronical 17:11-14 this Son of David would eventually own His Kingdom

    FOREVER, and with an ETERNAL THRONE!

    In 1 Corinthians 15-28 This Son of David eventually would give His Kingdom, SUPPOSED HIS KINGDOM FOREVER,

    to God our Father.

    HERE COMES A HEADACHE FOR YOU:

    My Question:  In my UNDERSTANDING IN RELATION TO YOUR BELIEF,  YOU and  Gene, though you would NEVER be in the position to answer,

    I ASK YOU:

    HOW ON EARTH, THIS SON OF DAVID WOULD POSSESS

    A KINGDOM FOREVER, WITH AN ETERNAL THRONE, AND AT THE SAME TIME AT THE VERY END, HE GIVES HIS KINGDOM,

    SUPPOSED FOREVER,

    TO GOD OUR FATHER?

    READY SET GO!

    I’M WAITING!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942218
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Jesus did not use his divine CREATOR power…

    ME: Your statement is off to me.

    Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing*: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

    18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Berean, the POWERS that Jesus had were according to the Spirit that descended and came to abode in him at the river Jordan, which is God’s word of prophecy unto a son of Jesse and of David made true in Jesus.

    The above is direct biblical teaching and anything else then becomes a contradiction, a lie. There is no scripture that says Jesus performed all these mighty works BECAUSE he existed prior with these powers and then he came to earth bringing them with him. 

    Such a belief also directly contradicts God’s word that surrounds the very prophecy I am speaking of that was fulfilled in Jesus. 

     Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,

    #942219
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    It’s been a while. I hope you are doing well considering your recent loss.

    I would like to know your understanding of what the One who existed in the form of God emptied himself of as spoken of in Philippians 2:

    5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    God bless, LU

    #942227
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Jesus did not use his divine CREATOR power…

    ME: Your statement is off to me. 

     

    Me

    Too bad, but it would be good for you to start taking it into account. You and Gene can’t continually twist the scriptures.
    JESUS HAPPILY IS THE DIVINE/HUMAN SON OF GOD.
    TO BE A MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, YOU MUST BE ON BOTH SIDES: DIVINE AND HUMAN.
    THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT “EMMANUEL” GOD IS WITH US.
    WE CAN TRANSLATE IT GOD FOR US AND ALSO GOD + US.

    IN THE BIGINNING, HE WAS GOD AND WHEN THE TIMES WERE FULFILLED, HE WAS MADE FLESH ACCORDING TO WHAT WAS PROPHETIZED BY THE HOLY PROPHETS.

    🙏

    #942231
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….I nor Jodi are twisting up anything,  we are quoting scriptures word for word, and you fail to even acknowledge them. The only one twisting scriptures here is You, and the rest who believe like you.

    Your above statement is another lie, you said , in order to be an “mediatior”, you must be half human and half devine”  ,  please show “ONE” scripture, that says that, just one. Was Moses a “mediator”, between God  and Isreal?, YES HE WAS. Was he half Human and half devine?,  No he was not, he was pure human, justxas Jesus was also. 

    See how your logic works,  through a host of “assumptions” , not proven fact at all. 

    You reject the actual scriptures we post, directly from the word of God, and insert your own false assumptions, you have been taught by all the fallen Churches,  you listen to and their false ministers and false prophets.  Then come here and try to explain their lies to us who kow the truth.  Repent while you still can Berean

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    #942232
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Col 1:16 For by him were ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    God made Jesus lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).

    God makes Jesus an eternal throne as was promised (1 Chronicles 17:12 and 14).

    Jesus did not make himself lord and nor did he make himself an eternal throne, so he could not possibly be the creator of ALL THINGS. 

    For by REASON OF Jesus were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by REASON OF Jesus, and FOR Jesus.

    The SAME God who MAKES Jesus a powerful and righteous judge and ruler through His Spirit, where he sits on his father David’s throne to be an eternal king, is the same God who created heaven and earth, thus it is this same God who has created ALL THINGS including thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers.

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins…11Then in that day the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, who will stand as a signal for the peoples; and His resting place will be glorious.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles…5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

    God formed it Himself FOR the anointed Jesus to inhabit, the firstborn of many brethren, where all rule and authority is given to him as he is made a King of kings and a Lord of lords. 

    God formed it to be inhabited by the Son and those predestined to be conformed into the image of the Son, people who are led by the Spirit of God, all heirs of God’s Spirit, joint heirs with the anointed Jesus and thus are all God’s eternal Sons, having God’s Spirit live in them to the cause that they walk in all of God’s ways and thus there is no more sin and no more death. 

    The Son of Man is coming in the glory of our Father where he will fulfill our Father’s purpose for having created all things in the first place, the son of Jesse will bring forth peace upon the whole earth where our Father will be ALL IN ALL, without this Son of Man nothing would have been made that was made. 

    #942233
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    1John.1
    [1] That which was from the beginning, (Christ time on earth)which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life(Jesus himself);
    [2] (For the life was manifested, ( Jesus is the way,the truth and the life)and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father(reference to John 1:1-4), and was manifested unto us;)(the Son of God in the flesh)
    [3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    ME:

    Thanks for speaking to 1 John 1 directly and clarifying how you interpret it, much appreciated!

    1 That which was from the beginning , which we have heard (God’s promise of eternal life that was preached by the anointed Jesus), which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life, for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us (Jesus was raised from the dead given eternal life and people were eyewitnesses seeing him and handling him knowing that God’s word of life was made true in the flesh of Jesus ) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her ,I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    Luke 24: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have…46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

    1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:  6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time…20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    Berean, if Jesus represents some eternal God who came to earth to be a temporary human, him being raised from the dead unto life is not really at all significant, it takes away from him actually being a firstborn of many brethren. He’s not really the Son of Man who was exalted to God’s right hand, nor is he really the man who became the firstfruits of them who sleep the sleep of death either.

    The truth is that with God from the beginning was a promise of eternal life unto mankind and with God from the beginning was the first man who would receive it and be exalted to God’s right hand to then later fulfill God’s word of life to many, this is exactly why we are told that all things were created by reason of and for this firstborn of many brethren, where without him nothing would have been made by God that was made.

    #942234
    Berean
    Participant

    For by REASON OF 

    If You wrote it on Google traduction

    In greek You have

    ΓΙΑ ΛΟΓΟ ΤΟΥ
    GIA LOGO TOU

    #942235
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Berean, if Jesus represents some eternal God who came to earth to be a temporary human, him being raised from the dead unto life is not really at all significant, it takes away from him actually being a firstborn of many brethren. He’s not really the Son of Man who was exalted to God’s right hand, nor is he really the man who became the firstfruits of them who sleep the sleep of death either.

    The truth is that with God from the beginning was a promise of eternal life unto mankind and with God from the beginning was the first man who would receive it and be exalted to God’s right hand to then later fulfill God’s word of life to many, this is exactly why we are told that all things were created by reason of and for this firstborn of many brethren, where without him nothing would have been made by God that was made.

    Me

    Jodi read

     

    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: 

    God was manifest in the flesh, 

    justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    New King James Version
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

    God was manifested in the flesh, 

    Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

    🙏

     

    #942237
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    First and foremost,

    YOU  and Gene CAN REMAIN SILENT AS MUCH AS YOU PLEASE, WHILE MY POSTS REMAIN AS TRUTH.

    You: Jesus did not make himself lord and nor did he make himself an eternal throne, so he could not possibly be the creator of ALL THINGS. 

    Me: WITH THE SAME CORRUPTED REASONING,

    GOD ALMIGHTY, A SPIRIT, COULD NOT  REVEAL, MANIFEST AND ESTABLISH HIMSELF  PHYSICALLY AS 

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH.

    HE ONLY ACHIEVED IT BY, AND THROUGH

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH.

    OBVIOUSLY, WHILE THE FATHER IN THE VERY FIRST ACT BY GOD AD EXTRA,  WAS EMBODIED IN ONE GLORY ETERNALLY FROM THE VERY BEGINNING  IN JESUS, John17:5

    ETERNAL LIFE.

    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.

    Jodi, Jesus was given power over all flesh, PRECISELY WHEN GOD, ETERNAL LIFE HIMSELF,  IN HIS  FIRST-EVER ACT,

    WAS PHYSICALLY EMBODIED IN JESUS, IN THAT INSTANT 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH/PHYSICAL. PRE-EXISTED AS

    THE UNIQUE CARRIER OF GOD!

    THE UNIQUE IMAGE OF GOD!

    THE UNIQUE FORM AND SHAPE OF GOD.

    Notice the PRESENT PERFECT TENSE!

    As thou HAST GIVEN him power over all flesh, 

    AN ACTION COMMENCED IT THE PAST AND CONTINUES INTO THE PRESENT. 

    Well ALSO asserted in

    John1:1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.

     3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    4In him was life,

    and the life was the light of men. 

    THE ONLY GENUINE PHYSICAL CARRIER OF GOD BEFORE ANYTHING WAS EVER CREATED!

    NO FATHER NO JESUS! 

    NO JESUS NO FATHER!

    NOW Jodi and Gene, HERE COMES A CLEAR REFERENCE TO

    BOTH OF YOU, ENTIRELY IN FULL DARKNESS, WITH EVERY RESPECT.

    5And the light shineth in darkness,

    and the darkness did not comprehend it. 

     

    Peace and Love in Jesus Christ

    #942240
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….Why should we post to your own renditions, that come from you own carnel mind, that You have fooled yourself into thinking, that what you say is “Spritual truth”,  even though not a single scripture agrees with it.  Trust me Carmel you are not gifted with the “spirit of truth”,  or You would be agreeing with Jodi and I, espically when we quote scriptures “word for word”.  Right out of the bible itself. 

    what your not understanding is that your not only disagreeing with me and Jodi, you disagreeing with the scriptures themselves.  We are told in scriptures ( not me)  “he that keeps not his commandments, the truth is not “IN” HIM. This is how we know your are not of the truth , because you deny the words we have quoted to you from scripture . 

    You remind me of the church of Laodica ,  They thought they were wise and needed nothing, but were both blind and naked,  Carmel. 

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel………..gene

     

    #942241
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    YOU

    Berean…….let me parapharse it for you ok, seening you lack the understanding of scriptures. ,

    “IN the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God”.  what that is saying is that God and his word are one and the same thing,  not that God and his word are two seperate beings of somekind,  as you falsely preach. Need proof?, go read Genesis it tell us clearly it was God himself who spoke those words,  and no one else did.

     

    Me

    You wrote : what that is saying is that God and his word are one and the same thing,  

    NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE WE READ SUCH A THING .

    But Jesus said
    I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

    A WORD THAT GOD SPEAKS CANNOT BE GOD.

    FOR ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD, NOT A WORD THAT GOD SPEAKS.

    SO THIS MEANS THAT THE “WORD” OF JOHN 1:1 THAT WAS GOD IS MUCH MORE THAN A WORD THAT GOD SPOKEN, EVEN THOUGH THAT WORD SPOKEN IS VERY IMPORTANT.

    🙏

    #942242
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Carmel…….Why should we post to your own renditions, that come from you own carnel mind, that You have fooled yourself into thinking, that what you say is “Spritual truth”,  even though not a single scripture agrees with it. 

    Me: Gene, THAT’S WHAT YOU ARE GOOD FOR, SIMPLY

    BLA, BLA, and BLA!

    WHY DIDN’T YOU CHOOSE A VERSE FROM MY POST AND CONTRADICTED ME USING SCRIPTURE?

    THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PROPER AND JUST WAY IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH AND JUSTIFY THE TRUTH.

    PLEASE DO SO!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942244
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    “IN the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God”.  what that is saying is that God and his word are one and the same thing,  not that God and his word are two seperate beings of somekind,  as you falsely preach. Need proof?, go read Genesis it tell us clearly it was God himself who spoke those words,  and no one else did.

    Let me make some corrections.

    1. The Word is preceded by the definite article like The God is. Thus, not likely to be referencing logos as an attribute, but a person. Just as The God is referencing a person except the last mention of theos in John 1:1c which has no definite article and likely referencing theos in quality, nature, or as an  attribute.
    2. The Word was WITH God. Another huge clue as it points out again that it is not the attribute or nature, but something next to God or WITH him in the beginning.
    3. God created all things through the Word. This means that God is the creator, but he did it through and for the Word that was WITH him. The same can be said about the Son of God. God created all things through and for Jesus Christ the Son of God.
    4. So which did God create all things through? The Word or Jesus Christ the Son? Both actually. But they are the same being not two. One proof of this when Jesus Christ, the Son of God returns. His name is ‘The Word of God’. So Jesus is called Jesus so he is Jesus. Likewise, his name is the Word of God, so he is the Word of God.

    There you have it. This is what scripture tells us. We either deal with this by accepting it or reject this and scripture. If you reject it, then you have to come up with clever ideas to deceive people about it. That choice is yours as we have free will.

    #942245
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    IT IS THE SON WHO OFFERED HIMSELF AS AN OFFERING FOR SIN.

    Behold, I come to do your will, O God (Heb.10:9)

    ME: Jesus offered himself because God commanded him to do so, it was God’s plan and as you said God’s will and Jesus obeyed.

    Jesus obeyed because he was the Son of Man who God had CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, where God would hold his hand and keep him for to fulfill God’s covenant. 

    Jesus obeyed and his calling to righteousness occurred through the Spirit of God coming to dwell in him without measure, Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear/reverence of the LORD;”

    Through the Son of Man Jesus receiving the Spirit of YHVH, the Spirit of fear/reverence for Him, he obeyed the command to die on the cross. Those who are LED by the Spirit of God walk in God’s ways, they obey Him and are called the Sons of God. Jesus was the only mortal human to have been led by the Spirit in all of God ways, called to righteousness having received the Spirit not by measure, an only begotten Son.

    Berean please talk about how an offspring of Jesse would be CALLED TO RIGHTEOUSNESS in Isaiah 42 for to THEN fulfill God’s covenant.

    Please talk about how Jesus said that he must be baptized to fulfill all righteousness in Matthew 3.

    Please speak to the fact that we are told that Jesus was filled with the Spirit at the river Jordan and then was LED by the Spirit into the wilderness.

    Please speak to the fact that we were predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son AND PAUL TELLS US DIRECTLY A FEW VERSES PRIOR THAT THOSE WHO ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE THE SONS OF GOD. You seem to deny the very image of the Son of God that is directly given, not to mention the very fact that 1 Chronicles 17 teaches directly that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God makes him into His own Son.

    Please explain how our hope is to receive the promised Spirit as Jesus received when he was raised from the dead, the same Spirit we are told is needed to be able to walk in all of God’s ways where there is then no more sin and thus no more death.

    Please explain, is not the promise of being an heir of God, joint heirs with Christ, the promise of inheriting God’s Spirit where we then walk in all of God’s ways and thus are led by the Spirit in all of God’s ways and thus are Sons of God, making Jesus the firstborn of many brethren???

     

     

    #942246
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Your interpretation is in grave error and if you reviewed the context given in the entire chapter maybe it would not be so,

    1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
    2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
    7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    Paul is speaking about godliness which comes through the Spirit to which JESUS RECEIVED WITHOUT MEASURE at the river Jordan. Godliness is God manifesting Himself in the flesh. If you have love, if you have truth, if you have patience, etc.., God’s Spirit is living in you, God is manifesting Himself in the flesh. Or are we all to be self-righteous? Jesus was certainly not, he said he could do nothing of himself, he said that only God is good, he said that God was in him and that is how he was doing the works. 

    Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    The Son of Man who received the Spirit of God WITHOUT MEASURE for the purpose to speak God’s words and do God’s works performing all of His will, was the perfect image of godliness and thus was God manifested in the flesh, why Jesus said that seeing him was seeing God and to believe not on him but on God who sent him, for God was in him. The SON OF MAN was received up into glory, exalted to God’s right hand, the very glory that God had promised to an offspring of Jesse. One man who was with God in His Word from the beginning where we will see him also return in our Father’s glory.

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