John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,561 through 23,580 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #942175
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    It’s a bummer that you refuse to explain how the passages I give fit in perfectly with your doctrine.

    Who can provide the best scriptural support to their belief? Who can interpret passages through the use of other passages verses interpreting through their own imagination? Who can interpret a passage where that understanding doesn’t contradict other passages? Who can use all scripture, not ignoring a one?

    I am on this forum to DEBATE what God’s word does and does not teach.

    I would never say to you, “You’re just forcing the scriptures to try to get me to swallow the lie that Jesus pre-existed”, because that would be pathetic, an obvious cop out. I would take those scriptures and explain to you directly how they fit into my belief.

    It’s VERY SIMPLE Berean, I give scriptures and then summarize what I believe they are teaching us, if my summary you believe is a lie, then speak to those same scriptures and give your understanding and feel free to add additional scriptures. Expose what you consider is a lie with giving God’s word, don’t just say my belief is a lie.

    #942176
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    Can you speak to my point?

    Jesus was able to do God’s works because he was anointed of the Spirit for that purpose.

    Jesus was filled with the Spirit to do God’s works and Jesus said God was in him and that is how he was doing the works of God.

    Jesus was declaring proof that he was God’s Son and that God was in him, by the works of God that he was doing.

    The devil’s acknowledgement of Jesus as God’s Son was by his ability to do might works. 

     

     

     

    #942177
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The main point of dispute are not these points that you are quoting to me IT IS THAT YOU DO NOT SEE THAT JESUS IS THE ONE THE BIBLE CALLS ‘THE WORD OF GOD’👉REV.19:13

    👉 AND THE WORD WAS GOD….AND WAS MADE FLESH

    #942179
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean, in all honesty, to me it just seems like you want to avoid a number of scriptures that I use to support my belief because they discredit your own, you can’t give an explanation as to how those passages actually support your belief. If your doctrine is sound, if it is of truth, you really should be able to speak to those scriptures.

    If I were ignorant to a major portion of crucial bible passages and strictly had the passages that you give that you believe support your doctrine, I could believe your doctrine, your doctrine would seem true, but I am not ignorant.

    #942180
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodie

    For God, it is not a question of giving birth to a human child whom He would have predestined and prophesied by his holy prophets, that this one become a man and that he be anointed with the Spirit of God and accomplish high deeds of justice and love SO THAT HE BECOMES THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

    THINGS ARE NOT SO.

    THE TRUTH IS THAT THE DIVIN SON OF GOD CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO DO THE FATHER’S WILL AND NOT HIS.

    TO DO THIS , HIS DIVINITY HAS BEEN JOINED WITH OUR HUMANITY BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

    PAUL SAYS ABOUT THE SON OF GOD

    I)  Who,👉 being in the form of God,👈 thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Hé WAS equal to God)

    II)   [7] 👉 But 👈made himself of no reputation, 

    III)👉 and 👈took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 

    IV) [8] 👉And 👈being found in fashion as a man, 

    V) 👉 he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 

     

     

     

    #942181
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: but I am not ignorant.

    Me: MORE THAN YOU THINK I’M AFRAID, WITH EERY RESPECT, concerning

    JESUS’ UNIQUENESS, PRE-EXISTENCE, DIVINE CHARACTERISTICS and ATTRIBUTES.

    The fact that you are so mentally stagnated that even JESUS’HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS, FOR YOU, ARE TOTALLY  EARTHLY and SATANIC. something that Jesus Himself made certain  to emphatically DENY in

    John 14:I will not now speak many things with you.

    For the prince of this world cometh,

    and in ME he hath not anything.

    Now just tell everyone on heaven net WHAT THE ABOVE DECLARATION BY JESUS

    MEANS!

    Got it Jodi and Gene, ?

    I make it easy for you, SINCE SPIRITUALLY YOU ARE BOTH TOTALLY IN DARKNESS!

    Jesus was sent by the Father, and CAME INTO THIS WORLD IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS OF EARTH, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    WITHOUT THE LEAST INTERMINGLING WITH THE PROCESS OF THIS SATANIC WORLD.

    TO BE CLEAR:

    GOD NEVER MADE USE WHAT YOUR CORRUPTED CARNAL-MINDED REASONING 

    HINTS  AND SUGGESTS YOU, I MEAN,

    NO SPERM and OVUM FORMED JESUS’ UNIQUE, ONE-OF-A-KIND FLESH AND BLOOD BODY, OTHERWISE HE WOULDN’T  HAVE BEEN NEITHER SO, NOR A JUSTIFIED HOLOCAUST ATTRIBUTED TO THE FATHER?

    IT IS ALL A DIRECT PROVISION FROM THE FATHER, AS EVE WAS,

    Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said:

    God will provide himself a victim for a holocaust, my son.

    So they went on together.

    THE FATHER AND THE SON ON THE CROSS Jodi and Gene!

    BY WHICH THE FATHER ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS OUR SAVIOUR. Read and accept the truth:

    Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not:

    but a body thou hast fitted to me: 

    Another scripture Jodi, which you must explain what it DOES MEAN!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #942186
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    Deuteronomy 33: 27 teaches us that our God is an Eternal God who is our refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.

    Titus 1:2 teaches us that our God promised eternal life before the world began

    1 John 1:1-2 teaches us that from the beginning with God was His Word of Eternal Life and the resurrected Jesus who the people saw and handled was the manifestation of that Word of Eternal Life.

    Romans 5: 8-21 teaches us that by the obedience and righteousness of one human shedding his blood on the cross we are given grace, righteousness and eternal life.

    Isaiah 46:10-13 teaches us that God spoke from the beginning of a man who would come at an ending and execute His purpose which is to bring forth salvation and righteousness.

    John 6:27 teaches us that the Son of Man whom God our Father has sealed will give us everlasting life.

    Matthew 16: 27 teaches us that the Son of Man will come in the glory of our Father and reward every man according to his works.

    With what we are taught from these scriptures it can rightfully be said that,

    In the beginning was the Word of Life and the Word of Eternal Life was with God before the world began and God Himself is Eternal.

    In the beginning was the Word of one man who would come and execute God’s Word of Eternal Life.

     

    #942187
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    With what we are taught from these scriptures it can rightfully be said that,

    In the beginning was the Word of Life and the Word of Eternal Life was with God before the world began and God Himself is Eternal.

    In the beginning was the Word of one man who would come and execute God’s Word of Eternal Life.

    Me

    All This Bible textes are good,  but that does not take away THE FACT THAT JESUS IS CALLED ‘THE WORD’ in John 1:1 and Rev.19:13:and that he WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD…AND WAS MADE FLESH AND DID AMONG US….AND SO ON….

    🙏

    #942188
    Berean
    Participant

    1John.1
    [1] That which was from the beginning, (Christ time on earth)which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life(Jesus himself);
    [2] (For the life was manifested, ( Jesus is the way,the truth and the life)and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father(reference to John 1:1-4), and was manifested unto us;)(the Son of God in the flesh)
    [3] That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    #942189
    Jodi
    Participant

    Keeping in mind that we are taught from scripture that,

    In the beginning was the Word of Life and the Word of Eternal Life was with God before the world began and God Himself is Eternal.

    In the beginning was the Word of one man who would come and execute God’s Word of Eternal Life.

    Let’s look at what we are also given,

    Acts 17:24-31 teaches us that our God who made the world and all things therein appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by one man whom he ordained, where we have assurance in that God did indeed raise this man from the dead.

    1 Chronicles 17:11-14 teaches us that the son of David was promised to be made into God’s Son and that God would settle him into His House and into His Kingdom forever and that He would give him an eternal throne.

    Acts 2: 30 teaches us that God raised up the son of David according to a promise where God exalted him to His right hand and gave him the promised Holy Spirit.

    Matthew 25: 31 teaches us that the Son of Man will come in his glory with holy messengers with him and he will sit upon the throne of his glory.

    1 Corinthians 15: 20-28 teaches us that the man raised first from the dead shall reign over all the earth putting down all rule and authority and the last enemy he will destroy is death itself and then he will give the kingdom over to God our Father where our Father will be all in all.

    Isaiah 46:10-13 teaches us that God spoke from the beginning of a man who would come at an ending and execute His purpose which is to bring forth salvation and righteousness.

    Psalms 148:1-14 teaches us to Praise YHVH our God for by His command heaven and earth and all things were created, from stars, to beasts, to men and maidens, to kings, princes and judges.

    With what we are taught from these scriptures it can rightfully be said that,

    Our God and Father has created all things FOR one man to inherit, to judge and rule over.

    BY reason of this man, God’s purpose for creating all things in the first place, God will be all in all.

    #942190
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    In the beginning was the Word of one man who would come and execute God’s Word of Eternal Life. 

    Me

    NO 

    IN THE BIGINNING WAS THE SON OF GOD WHOSE NAME IS “THE WORD OF GOD”(Rev.19:13)
    AND NOT THE WORD OF ONE MAN . 

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and 👉the Word was God.👈
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God.
    [3] 👉All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.👈

    🙏

    #942192
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jude 1:25
    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Do I hear an ‘Amen’ Jodi?

    #942194
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……you ask them , “are you all to blind to see it”…?.?,  fact is, yes  they are all blind,  or they could easely see what you have written is the truth.

    They simply do not want to see Jesus as a real human being “exactly as we are”,  they have rejected God’s work of perfection , “IN” humanity,  through the human Man Jesus Christ.   They have taken this man and made him their GOD, just as Paul said they would in 2thes2 ,  and they will pay for it at the return of Jesus, when they are rejected, Just as it says. .in the Prophsy of Paul.

    When the Son of Man returns as our king, and they see he is a real human being, “not a God”, who rejects them and their false teachings,  they will turn on him and call him “the Antichrist”,  and they will be  destoryed by the words of Jesus’ mouth, just as said.  They are already predesposied to call him the Antichrist,  by their present thinking.

    Jodi your doing a great Job, your quotation after quotation of our scriptures , to prove over and over you points is most incouraging to those who truly love the truth’

    Hold fast to what you have Jodi, even unto the end. Your crown awaits you sis.

    Peace and love to you and your Jodi……..gene

     

    #942196
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    [2] The same was in the beginning with God. 

    [3] All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made. 

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 

    Your mind has been conditioned by FALSE TEACHING.

    FOR SIMPLICITY  THE TRUTH IS BETWEEN
    TRINITARISM AND UNITARISM WHICH DENY THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST.

    🙏

     

     

    #942197
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi,

    You: In the beginning was the Word of one man…..

    Me: Perfect Jodi, that one MAN is Jesus, THE SON OF MAN YET TO BE.

    Pre-existed BEFORE ALL  WITHIN THE DEITY AD INTRA, and eventually, ALL THINGS CONSISTS BY HIM once God initiated creation. AD EXTRA, OUTSIDE OF THE DEITY, Colossians 1:17, but before creation ever occurred in the heavenly realms, ALL THROUGHOUT SPIRITUAL EVEN AS FLESH,  THIS MAN’S WORD, WAS NOT YET “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD, since no creatures were in existence yet, and GOD WAS SILENT. Thus THIS MAN, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, THOUGH GOD HAS NO BEGINNING, PRECISELY THROUGH HIS SON HAD A BEGINNING BY THE VERY FIRST PRONOUNCEMENT OF GOD, “LET THERE BE LIGHT”, BY WHICH LIGHT GOD ESTABLISHED FROM WITHIN HIS BOSOM, HIS SON

    GOD FROM GOD,

    LIGHT FROM LIGHT AS 

    THE  UNIQUE PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF GOD,

    THE UNIQUE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF GOD. 

    THE  UNIQUE FORM AND SHAPE OF GOD.

    THE UNIQUE CARRIER OF GOD.

    IN GOD’S OWN TERMS, IN FLESH,

    THUS “THE WORD” FROM THAT VERY INSTANT AND FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, WAS MADE FLESH, AGAIN IN GOD’S MYSTERIOUS TERMS.

    THE FIRST AND THE LAST JERUSALEM:

    THIS MAN’S BODY.

    A LUMINOUS PHYSICAL BODY manifested on mount Tabor, IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER A SPIRIT WITHIN, INDWELLING FOR THE FRIST EVER TIME WITHIN THIS UNIQUE MAN, HIS SON,

    ETERNALLY THE UNIQUE ABODE OF GOD!

    ETERNAL LIFE, NO MATTER WHAT AND WHOM AT ALL COSTS,

    BY WHOM GOD FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME MOVED, AND SAW HIMSELF AS

    MAN AD EXTRA, OUTSIDE OF HIMSELF

    IN A UNIQUE GLORY BOTH PHYSICAL AND SPIRIT.

    Psalm 8:4 What is man that thou art mindful of him?

    or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT! THEN GOD WHO IS LOVE SAID:

    Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said:

    It is not good for man to be alone:

    let us make him a help like unto himself.

    From then on THIS MAN Jodi, AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD,

    ETERNAL LIFE, LEFT THE FATHER,

    EMPTIED HIMSELF, AND POURED HIS ENTIRE SPIRIT OVER ALL CREATION, AS ETERNAL LIFE,

    John6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles,

    but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were FILLED.

    Got it Jodi, “WERE FILLED”

    FILLED WITH JESUS’ SPIRIT ETERNAL LIFE WELL ASSERTED BY JESUS HIMSELF HEREUNDER:

    27Labour not for the meat which perisheth,

    but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life,

    which the Son of man shall give unto you:

    for him hath God the Father sealed. 

     

    THE PURE FACT THAT GOD CREATED ALL BY HIM, ALL IN HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM.

    John1:3 All things were made by him;

    and without him was not anything made that was made. 

    4In him was life;

    and the life was the light of men.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #942199
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….let me parapharse it for you ok, seening you lack the understanding of scriptures. ,

    “IN the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God”.  what that is saying is that God and his word are one and the same thing,  not that God and his word are two seperate beings of somekind,  as you falsely preach. Need proof?, go read Genesis it tell us clearly it was God himself who spoke those words,  and no one else did. 

    In the beginning of our scriptures has only God speaking his own words, not someone speaking for him, GOD CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIS OWN WORDS, NOT BY SOMEONE ELSES WORDS, only an idiot would believe differently. Your so screw up you can’t even understand that a person and his words , “ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING”,  you and your word are you and no one else, are you so ignorant you don’t realize,  that holds true even with God. the Father.  Just as it does us.  DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE , your words and you can possibilly be two seperate things.

    Simply amazing at THE LEVEL OF STUPIDITY, THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS HERE! One thing for sure,  it is an evident token of the lack of the Spirit of Truth, that existes in modern “Christanity”,   and you people are an excelent example of it, IMO,   sad!

    Peace and love to you and yours ………..gene

     

    #942200
    Jodi
    Participant

    Thank you Gene, I very much appreciate your backup and encouragement!

    It will be a glorious day when all that is true becomes all that is known.

    #942201
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    I’ve known THIS UNITARIAN BLABLABLA for a long time. IT’S NO NEED TO TRY TO MAKE ME SUGGEST THIS.

    #942202
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I said,In the beginning was the Word of one man who would come and execute God’s Word of Eternal Life.

    Please acknowledge these passages,

    Isaiah 46:10 DECLARING the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    This is God’s Word from the beginning, His pleasure, His purpose for creating all things in the first place.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, PROMISED before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his WORD through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

    John 6: 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    What I said comes directly from what the above passages teach us.

    #942203
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I see that you left out verse 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    and then Paul proceeds to give us the MIND/thinking of the anointed man JESUS,

    Paul later in the chapter says,

    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

    Berean once again, John 6: 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

    The anointed man Jesus received the Spirit to be sent out to speak the word of God where he preached the word of life and that he as a Son of Man will give eternal life. People beheld his glory as he was full of truth as he had been the only mortal man to have been begotten of God’s Spirit without measure.

    The men that Paul is speaking to in Philippians, that he asks be like minded with the anointed man Jesus, are men who have also received the Spirit and have also been sent out to preach God’s word of truth, to declare God’s Word of life and how it is that God had planned from the beginning that by one’s man’s righteousness we would be saved and that this man will return in the glory of the Father giving the reward of the word of God the word of eternal life.

    Just as Jesus was persecuted for speaking God’s word these men would also be persecuted and they needed to be like minded with the anointed man Jesus and be faithful also unto their own deaths.

     

     

     

Viewing 20 posts - 23,561 through 23,580 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account