John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,401 through 23,420 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #890751
    gadam123
    Participant

    Mike:  Adam, the NT confirms Jesus as the Messiah because the OT says the Messiah will do A, B, and C… and Jesus did A, B, and C.

    Adam:  I reject the NT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that Jesus did A, B and C.

    Adam:  The OT proves God because it tells how God did A, B and C.

    Atheist:  I reject your OT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that God did A, B and C.

    Understand now?  If you cannot use the OT (which the atheist rejects) to prove the existence of God, then how do you expect me to use the NT (which you reject) to prove that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Hi Mike, please note I am not rejecting the NT completely but I give less credit to these writings when compared to the Hebrew Bible as the NT developed its ideas from its original source the Hebrew Bible which was nothing new if you look at number of such texts written during the Intertestamental period. One such example is the book of Enoch. I even don’t take the OT literally or the inspired word of God like other Fundamentalists. I am only investigating the texts of the NT and its greater claims on Jesus the so called Messiah with reference its (NT) primary source the Hebrew Bible.

     

    #890766
    gadam123
    Participant

    The above was a quote from Jesus the Messiah of God – not an “interpretation” from Luke.  But how about you address Jesus’ point now?  We both agree that – even after all three men had died – Yahweh still claimed to be their God.  (He did not say he WAS the God of these men, but that He IS the God of these men, right?)

    So… is Yahweh a God of the dead?

    Hi Mike, we don’t know what Jesus really spoke as we don’t have any of his writings. We only have what others talked about him and put words in his mouth most of the time. This is the reason why I would like to specify the words of the writers.

    It’s another speculation of the NT writers and Christianity quoting Ex 3:6 for showing that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living at the time of Exodus. Please read the verses Exodus 3:

    6 He said further, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

    15 God also said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.

    16 Go and assemble the elders of Israel, and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying: I have given heed to you and to what has been done to you in Egypt.

    The above clearly infer that Yahweh was talking as the God of the ancestors of Israel, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The writer of the Luke simply misinterpret those texts to suit his idea of dead Ancestors were living at the time of Exodus or he wanted to prove that these dead ancestors were living at the time of Jesus in heaven.

    I don’t know what this writer wanted to prove. Do you think he wanted to prove the immortality of the soul?

    #890778
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel,

    It was Jesus body that was resurrected on resurrection day,

    His spirit was in the hands of the Father at the time of the last breath on the cross.

    Lu, 100% RIGHT!

    But it seems to me that I wasn’t clear enough in my post, as I explained WHAT HAPPENED TO JESUS’SPIRIT, precisely immediately on Jesus’ death! John13:31-32. Here is again what I posted in relation to Jesus’ spirit.

    Jesus, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, died and gave Himself as a ransom

    IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE. To be clear, in order for Jesus to give His dead body to the human race, well asserted in the last supper by His own words:

    ….THIS IS MY BODY WHICH IS GIVEN FOR YOU…..

    Precisely on His resurrection. Jesus, the Son of Man,  could only do so

    BY HIS OWN SPIRIT, SIMPLY AS ONLY HIS SPIRIT  AS “THE WORD” WAS ENGRAFTED IN ALL CREATURES and sealed in the entire process of the world, ALL IN HIM, and ALL BY HIM. SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, Rev.13:8 Well HINTED OUT by Jesus’own words on the cross,

    …..into thy hands I commend MY SPIRIT. And saying this, he gave up THE GHOST.

    The Holy Ghost in Jesus’soul.

    Thus as you well said Jesus left His spirit, in the hands of the Father,

    THE VERY SPIRIT JESUS HIMSELF EMPTIED HIMSELF OF AND POURED IT ALL OVER CREATION AS ETERNAL LIFE, AND ALSO IN ORDER TO BE AS WEAK AND IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS.

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, Rev.13:8 precisely ETERNAL LIFE, GOD ALL-KNOWING, engrafted in all souls/spirits from the very beginning, in Lucifer,

    The original spirit of the human race in flesh and blood.

    You: I believe that “today I have begotten you” refers to

    the Son according to the flesh, from the dead.

    The above is precise, but you have to be aware of

    BY WHICH PROCESS!

    NOW, IN VIEW OF YOUR BELIEF, I ALSO SAID: Jesus declared that

    flesh counts for nothing it is THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE.

    It is HIS SPIRIT that gave life to His own dead body,

    ORIGINALLY SLAIN LIKE A LAMB……Rev 13:8

    WHICH WAS IN THE HANDS OF THE FATHER, PREDESTINED BY GOD THE FATHER.Well clear in

    John10:18,No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again.

    This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Thus this spirit originally slain like a lamb…… was PRECISELY  allocated to the human race from the beginning as ETERNAL LIFE, DURING THE PROCESS OF CREATION OF WHICH  SPIRIT, DIVINE,  JESUS EMPTIED HIMSELF OF IN ORDER TO BECOME  PRECISELY

    THE  SON OF MAN! 

    JESUS’DEAD BODY, THE BODY WHICH WAS GIVEN TO THE HUMAN RACE ON HIS RESURRECTION,  BUT ONLY BACK TO LIFE 

    BY JESUS’ OWN SPIRIT,

    IN THE HANDS OF THE FATHER! THE FACT THAT HE WAS 

    ORIGINALLY SLAIN……Rev.13:8 BUT STRENGTHENED BY THE FATHER!

    THUS JESUS WAS NOT BEGOTTEN ON HIS RESURRECTION, HE ONLY BECAME ALIVE, AND ALIVE NOT IN HIMSELF, SINCE HE BECAME ALIVE AND GLORIFIED IMMEDIATELY ON THE CROSS,

    AS JESUS CHRIST

    BUT ALIVE EMBODIED WITH THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE 1Peter 1:3

    NOT YET BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER!

    NOT YET PERFECT SINCE ONLY GOD IS PERFECT!

    YOU: Clearly though, the Father was Jesus’ father before the resurrection day.

    ME: The above Lu, as a reference to Jesus’dead body, IS NOT QUITE PRECISE!

    GOD THE FATHER IS NOT OF THE DEAD, BUT OF THE LIVING!

    WHILE JESUS WAS DEAD, HE WAS NOT THE SON OF GOD, BUT

    JUST THE SON OF MAN! “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    You: Thus He is called the Firstborn from the dead.

    I’m afraid this term “FROM THE DEAD” MUST BE CLARIFIED, SIMPLY AS IT IS A REFERENCE TO

    ALL DEAD SOULS! 

    With Satan’s spirit, both in hell and on earth, confirmed by Jesus own words:

    LET THE DEAD BURY THE DEAD!

    THUS JESUS’ SPIRIT WAS PRECISELY SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8 IN ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS!

    BUT ONCE JESUS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’BODY GLORIFIED ON HIS DEATH AND BECAME

    GODMAN, ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, ACTS 20:28

    HIS SPIRIT, ORIGINALLY SLAIN …..Rev. 13;8 ATTENTION PLEASE:

    IN ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, WAS NOT SLAIN ANYMORE,

    BUT ALIVE AND ACTIVE,

    THUS ON THE THIRD DAY HIS SPIRIT ALIVE, IN THE HANDS OF THE FATHER INTEGRATED WITH “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE DEAD BODY OF JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN,

    BUT NOT YET PERFECT, NOT YET BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER!

    That was the day that the Son received the promise made to David, that David’s son would not undergo decay, and would be installed as King on the eternal throne at the right hand of the Father.

    PRECISELY BUT NOT ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    ON HIS RESURRECTION JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN WAS THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS IN HIM.

    THE FACT THAT HE WAS NOT YET PERFECT!

    NOT YET BEGOTTEN! WELL CLEAR IN

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me,

    for I am not yet ascended to (THE GLORY OF) my Father…

    NOW THE ABOVE IS PRECISELY THE REFERENCE THAT JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN, WAS NOT YET BEGOTTEN!

    NOW JESUS THE SON OF MAN,  THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, John 3:3 and

    JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS ON JESUS’ DEATH

    GODMAN

    INTEGRATED THAT SAME EVENING OF HIS RESURRECTION PRECISELY AT 6.00, THE PRECISE MOMENT WHEN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER IN

    JESUS CHRIST! 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH!

    WELL ASSERTED ALSO IN

    John20:17 …..But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, JESUS ONLY ONCE HIMSELF DECLARED THAT HE IS OUR AUTHENTIC BROTHER, PRECISELY ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    THEN HE ALSO ASSERTED THAT EVENTUALLY HE, AS THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, THE SECOND ADAM, A SPIRIT “THE WORD” FROM THE HEART OF THE EARTH, FROM LL DEAD SOULS, WOULD GLORIFY AND BECOME ONE SUBSTANCE WITH JESUS CHRIST, 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD IN JESUS CHRIST! Well hinted out by Jesus hereunder 

    I ascend to (THE GLORY OF) my Father and to your Father,

    JESUS CONFIRMS THAT THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’DEAD BODY, GLORIFIES BOTH AS

    THE FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS, AND THE FATHER OF ALL FLESH!

    to my God and your God.

    JESUS CONFIRMS THAT THE SON OF MAN, JESUS ‘DEAD BODY, GLORIFIES BOTH

    AS GOD OF ALL SPIRITS, AND GOD OF ALL FLESH!

    THE SON OF GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST and 

    THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” ARE NOT TWO ANY MORE BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    OFFICIALLY THE HIGHEST EVER

    GODMAN

    FOR THE PLEASURE OF GOD THE FATHER!

    ORIGINALLY THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD  IN ONE GLORY BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #890780
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Carmel, these are excerpts from the prayer of the Apostles in Acts 4…

    When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them…

    ME: Mike unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, the above is of no use!

    THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE ALL BY HIMSELF IN RELATION TO HUMAN REASONING!

    EXCEPT    IN/BY/FOR JESUS!

    IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    Mike if you commit a sin, who in actual fact did commit the sin,

    THE SOUL?   GOD’S 

    THE FLESH BODY?  JESUS’ OR

    BOTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #890781
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Not at all.  I’m telling you that if the dispute is between Architect John and Lawyer Jim, the mediator cannot be EITHER Architect John OR Lawyer Jim.  A mediator cannot be one of the parties he mediates between.

    In the case we’re discussing, one of the parties is “God”.  Therefore Jesus, as mediator cannot be “God”.

    WASN’T I CLEAR ENOUGH?

    JESUS IS NOT GOD ONLY, 

    JESUS IS NOT MAN ONLY

    BUT BOTH

    GOD AND MAN

    THE PERFECT MEDIATOR!

    BETWEEN GOD AND MAN

    GODMAN!

    SCRIPTURE:

    Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one:

    IN RELATION TO HUMANS

    but God is one.

    GOD HIMSELF IN JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #891156
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: No Jesus IS the creator approved of God, because HE WAS GOD IN THE BIGINNING .

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Rev 4:9-11…  And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

    “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things; by Your will they exist and came to be.”

    Berean, would you agree that “the One seated on the throne” is the one who created all things?  Who is “the One seated on the throne”?


    @Lightenup

    #891157
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Do you think Adam and Eve were the literal human beings ever existed on this planet?

    Absolutely.  I believe that Adam and Eve were literally the first human beings to ever exist on this plane (not “planet”), and that their existence here began when the earth was only 6 literal days old.

    #891158
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: Hi Mike, the verses you quoted from Job and  Eccl talk about the death of a man. Here the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God. Where is the so called immortal soul here in these verse?

    Pay attention.  These verses are to show you that although God gave something to someone (the spirit in the case of men), He is not powerless to take it away afterwards (the spirit returns to Him who gave it).

    So in the case of Ps 82, where immortal creatures will die like mortal men do, God clearly has the power to destroy those who wouldn’t have died naturally – ie:  the immortal can be destroyed.

    Adam:  Ps 82 , 89, Deut 32:8-9 and few other texts in the Hebrew Bible reflect the Polytheistic environment of the Hebrew religion where the God Yahweh shown as subordinate to the most high like El Elyon and he sits in the council of so called gods.

    That’s absolute nonsense.  Yahweh is the Most High God.  There are indeed many gods, but Yahweh is the Most High Creator of all other gods.

    Adam:  So the assumption of concept of immortality to these so called gods as quoted in your post is beyond the Biblical concept of the immortality and eternal life. The immortality of the soul is another developed idea based on the Platonic duality which is visible in some of the texts of the NT.

    Sounds to me like you’re trying to parrot some things that you read somewhere.  I’m having a hard time following what you’re trying to say here.

    #891159
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Without problem, because even if the Son took part in the creation of all things, the honor and the glory GO TO THE FATHER WHO BEGOTTEN THE SON AND THUS GIVEN HIM TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF, AS SAID JESUS IN JOHN 5:26
    For as the Father hath LIFE IN HIMSELF; so hath he given to the Son to have LIFE IN HIMSELF; 

    IN THIS LIFE IS OMNIPOTENCE, OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, ETERNITY …
    THANKS GOD FOR YOUR LOVE.

    WE HAVE A LEGAL AND POWERFULL SAVIOR IN JESUS ,THE ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ,WHO WAS MADE FLESH FOR OUR  SINS.

    God bless

    #891160
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: 1.  Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.

    2.  Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.

    3.  God never did miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which of those 3 do you believe?

     

    Adam:  If you want the  debate on Jesus’ Messiahship you can argue on the appropriate thread. I can transfer these arguments of yours to that thread…..

    Just pick one of the 3 options.  It’s clear that you are afraid of the question.  So if it gets you to answer it, feel free to transfer it to whatever thread you deem appropriate and let me know where to find it.

    #891161
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi Mike, please note I am not rejecting the NT completely but I give less credit to these writings when compared to the Hebrew Bible as the NT developed its ideas from its original source the Hebrew Bible…

    Can you possibly prove that the teachings in the NT (which clearly ALIGN WITH the OT) were “developed from” the OT?  Of course not.  You are making a claim that you couldn’t possibly back up.

    In other words, could you actually prove that the NT isn’t the true and accurate written testimonies of those who walked with Jesus on earth?  No.

    Can you prove that Jesus isn’t exactly who he claimed to be (according to those true and accurate testimonies)?  No.

    The fact that you personally don’t hold the NT in as high regard as the OT means absolutely nothing to anybody here.  Would it matter to you if I didn’t give Jeremiah as much credit as I do the other OT books?  Of course not.  Why would it?

    #891162
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: 6 He said further, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God…

    The writer of the Luke simply misinterpret those texts to suit his idea of dead Ancestors were living at the time of Exodus…

    You’re trying to avoid the question.  Is it true that Yahweh said He IS (not was) the God of these people?  Yes.

    IS (not was) Yahweh the God of the dead?  Yes or No?

    In your understanding, it’s clear that Yahweh WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, right?  He’s not their God anymore, since they have ceased to exist, right?

    So the point is why Yahweh Himself would tell Moses that He IS (not WAS) the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Why do you think Yahweh would do that?

    #891163
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them…

     

    Carmel: Mike unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, the above is of no use!

    What?  Are you saying that unless I know exactly how God created me, I’m not a creation of God?  Stop trying to divert with silliness.  The verse is simple.  The Apostles prayed to someone who they said created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  The question is also simple:  Who were they praying to?  Jesus?  Or someone other than Jesus?  Just answer the question.

    Carmel:  THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE ALL BY HIMSELF IN RELATION TO HUMAN REASONING!

    EXCEPT    IN/BY/FOR JESUS!

    More nonsense.  As if God was somehow UNABLE to create things all by Himself.   But let’s expose your lunacy…

    Carmel, when God created Adam on the 6th day, what “human” insights could Jesus have given God, seeing that Jesus hadn’t ever been a human at that time?

    #891164
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: WASN’T I CLEAR ENOUGH?

    JESUS IS NOT GOD ONLY, 

    JESUS IS NOT MAN ONLY

    BUT BOTH

    GOD AND MAN

    Oh I understand what you’re saying.  It’s just that what you’re saying is unscriptural nonsense.  But let me play the game once more to see if you can finally understand why you’re wrong…

    A case has come up in the Seventh District Court of Heaven.  God is suing Satan for blasphemy and crimes against humanity.

    Presiding over the case is…. GOD!

    Do you see how stupid your argument is now?  The Judge/Mediator of a case can’t BE one of the two parties who are going against each other.  If a judge gets accused of sexual harassment, he can’t very well be the mediator of the case, mediating between the woman and himself!   God cannot be the mediator BETWEEN God and Satan – because God is one of the two parties.  The mediator BETWEEN those two parties has to be someone who is neither God nor Satan.

    (And no, it can’t be someone who is BOTH God AND Satan. 🙄  That would be equally ridiculous because it would amount to one person being the mediator BETWEEN themselves.  That one person would be both parties AND the one who mediates between the two parties.  Absolute absurdity!)

    #891165
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Without problem, because even if the Son took part in the creation of all things, the honor and the glory GO TO THE FATHER…

    So your argument is that Jesus is the true Creator of heaven, earth, the sea, and everything in them… but as far as anyone’s concerned, God is the one who created all things – not Jesus?

    Berean, can’t you see the hoops you’re trying to jump through here?  Maybe it’s time you give it up.  Scripture clearly says – in MANY places, both OT and NT – that we have one Creator, and that Creator is God, not Jesus.

    We’re told that God created all things through Jesus – but we aren’t told exactly what that means. We are NEVER told in ANY scripture that Jesus is our Creator.  Only that God created through him.

    Listen, the creatures in Revelation know that God created all things.  Jesus’ own Apostles in Acts 4 know that God created all things.  Jesus himself in Mark 13:19 knows that God created the world, right?

    Maybe it’s time that you and LU and Carmel finally come to grips with what Jesus, his Apostles, his God, and even the 4 creatures who are forever in the presence of God’s throne in heaven all already know:  God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them.

    Jesus is one of the EVERYTHING in them that God created.

    #891168
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean. You look like you are suffering from confusion brought on by the Trinity Doctrine.

    The Bible teaches that there is one God. God created everything. And He created all things through the Word / Jesus Christ / Son of God.

    And while we may not understand how that works exactly, it doesn’t give us the right to input our own ideas and make Jesus the creator. He is the head for sure, but not the creator. Scripture is clear. All things were created through him and for him.

    As for who we pray to, well that is easy. We pray to God just as Jesus did. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

    The fruit of the Trinity Doctrine is confusion, division, and thousands of denominations. The fruit is not good. People have also been murdered because they spoke the truth when they said the Trinity Doctrine was false. Murder is a gross sin. Men were burned at the stake etc. Today, many still wrestle with this. The answer is simple though. Ignore the BS that comes from man and read and believe what the scriptures say. Then you will see the true doctrine of Christ.

    Don’t let the fear of man hinder your journey toward truth.

    #891192
    carmel
    Participant

    Mike:  When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them…
     ER

    Carmel: Mike unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, the above is of no use!

    What?  Are you saying that unless I know exactly how God created me,

    I’m not a creation of God? 

    ME: Mike,

    ON EARTH,

    UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE POSITION TO PROVE AND SPECIFY YOUR PROCESS OF BEING A HUMAN BEING BORN OF A HUMAN BEING SPECIFICALLY BY YOUR OWN FATHER,

    IT IS OF NO USE TO SAY WHO YOUR FATHER IS!

    DESPITE YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING! A MAN!

    I AM AN ARTIST HONESTLY SPEAKING, BUT UNLESS, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    I HAVE

    THE BRUSH, OR ANYTHING SIMILAR,

    THE PAINT, OR ANYTHING SIMILAR, AND

    THE CANVAS OR ANYTHING SIMILAR,

    THE PAINTING COULD IN NO WAY BE DONE NO MATTER HOW GOOD  AN ARTIST I AM!

    THE SAME WITH GOD, A MYSTERIOUS UNKNOWN ENTITY!

    UNLESS GOD HAD

    POWER

    LOVE, 

    and 

    WISDOM 

    CREATION COULD IN NO WAY BE DONE! NOW: 

    GOD COMPRISES

    THE POWER OF THE FATHER

    THE LOVE OF THE HOLY GHOST and

    THE WISDOM OF THE SON

    THE ABOVE ARE THE THREE MOST FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTES OF GOD and WITHOUT THESE ATTRIBUTES FULLY FUNCTIONAL IN FULL HARMONY

    CREATION WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

    Mike, Stop trying to divert with silliness.  The verse is simple. 

    unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, MYSTERIOUS, your verse hereunder is of no use!

    ESPECIALLY SINCE NO ONE KNOWS WHO GOD IS and 

    WHAT GOD IS 

    YOU:The Apostles prayed to someone who they said created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  The question is also simple: 

    Who were they praying to?  Jesus?  Or someone other than Jesus?  Just answer the question.

    THAT SOMEONE, the most mysterious Mike,

    WITHIN HIMSELF POSSESSED

    THE SON and THE HOLY GHOST!

    A TRIUNE GOD

    Whether you believe it or not it’s your pigeon, not mine!

    1Corinthians 1:23For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:

     24BUT UNTO THEM THAT ARE CALLED, both Jews and Greeks,

    Christ THE POWER (in the Holy Ghost) of God, and

    THE WISDOM (the Son, in “THE WORD”) of God.

    Proverbs 8:22The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning.

    23I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made.

    24The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived.(IN THE HOLY GHOST) neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:

    25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills, I was brought forth: (AS AND WITHIN AN ENDLESS LUMINOUS SPIRITS OF LIGHT, THE BIG BANG)

    26He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.

    27When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:

    28When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:

    29When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth;

    30I was with him forming all things:

    and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

    31Playing in the world: and my delights were to be

    with the children of men.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #891194
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Who were they praying to?  Jesus?  Or someone other than Jesus? 

    Carmel:  A TRIUNE GOD
    Whether you believe it or not it’s your pigeon, not mine!

    Acts 4:24… “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.”

    It’s clear they are praying to someone who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, right?  They identify that someone as “YOU”.  You think that someone is a Triune God comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, right?  But watch…

    Acts 4:25… You said through the Holy Spirit, by the mouth of our father David your servant: Why do the Gentiles rage and the peoples plot futile things?

    Here the “YOU” is distinguished as someone other than the Holy Spirit.  Notice that the Holy Spirit is not who/what spoke, but a vessel/means through which the person identified as “YOU” spoke.  Likewise, the servant David is not who spoke, but the vessel/means through which the words were spoken.

    Understand?  If we’re told that God spoke through Moses, then it’s clear that Moses is someone other than God.  If we’re told that God spoke through a vision, then it’s clear that the vision is something other than God.  If we’re told that God spoke through the servant David, then it’s clear that David is someone other than God.  And if we’re told that God spoke through the Holy Spirit, then it’s clear that the Holy Spirit is something other than God.

    And if you want to say that the Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead who spoke through it, then I can claim that Moses, the vision, and David are members of the Godhead who spoke through them.

    Acts 4:30… stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.

    This part is even easier to understand, because not only does “YOU” do signs through someone (meaning that someone can’t BE the “YOU” who did the signs through him), but that someone is also clearly identified as the holy servant OF the one identified as “YOU”.

    So in a nutshell, if the “YOU” who created all things speaks through the Holy Spirit or David, then it’s clear that the Holy Spirit and David are not the “YOU” who spoke through them.  If the “YOU” who created all things does signs and wonders through Jesus, then it’s clear that Jesus is not the “YOU” who did those signs and wonders through him.  And if Jesus is clearly identified as the holy servant OF the “YOU” who created all things, then it’s clear that Jesus is not the “YOU” who created all things.

    Jesus is not the “YOU” who created all things, Carmel, but the holy servant OF the “YOU” who created all things.

     

     

    #891195
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel, now let’s do the same with Rev 4 and 5…

    Rev 4:2…  At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

    Notice there is only one person on that throne – not three.

    Rev 4:9-11…  And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

    “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things; by Your will they exist and came to be.”

    Just like with Acts 4, the 24 elders identify only ONE person as the “YOU” who created all things, right?  So is Jesus the “YOU” – or even a member in a triune “YOU-head”?

    Rev 5:1-7… Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 

    Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain… And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

    You can see that Jesus is not the “YOU” who sits on the throne and who created all things.  Jesus is instead the one who takes the scroll from the right hand of the “YOU” who sits on the throne and who created all things.

    Carmel, scriptures clearly teach us that Jesus is someone other than the God who created all things.  Whether you believe those scriptures or not is your pigeon, not mine.

    #891199
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……..both your last two posts were “spot on” brother.

    peace and love to you and yours………….gene

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