John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,381 through 23,400 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #890606
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU: Jesus is both the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn from the dead.

    Jesus is both the firstborn of all creation,

    ME: DEFINITELY,  IN

    LUCIFER, THE BEGINNING, THE LIGHT BRINGER, THE MORNING STAR.(“THE WORD” JESUS THE SON OF MAN TO BE HIDDEN IN LUCIFER, THE TRUE LIGHT; THE FIRST SON OF GOD, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE, JESUS AND LUCIFER, ONE SPIRIT AND ONE PHYSICAL, ONE VISIBLE AND ONE INVISIBLE WITH

    ONE DIVINE/CREATURE HEART) 

    MANIFESTED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME ON EARTH AND IN THE ENTIRE COSMOS BY

    JESUS ON MOUNT TABOR! THE EMBODIMENT OF LUCIFER, THE FIRST CARRIER, AND EMBODIMENT OF GOD, HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN DURING THE PROBATION PERIOD IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FREE WILL. AND LOYALTY TO GOD.

    YOU: and the firstborn from the dead.

    ME, DEFINITELY, JESUS, EMBODIED IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE,

    ALL IN HIM/ALL BY HIM/ ALL FOR HIM, THE SECOND ADAM FROM THE CORE OF THE EARTH, TO BE CLEAR

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE  ex Satan/Lucifer’s substance, NOT PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

    1Peter 2:10 Who in time past were not a people:

    but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy;

    but now have obtained mercy.

    ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS TO JESUS, attention PLEASE:

    NOT YET JESUS CHRIST! BUT

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, John3:3.

    John20:17 Jesus saith to her:

    Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to (IN THE GLORIFIED STATE OF) my Father.

    But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    I am not going to repeat what I posted in the last one above, so please carry on reading the last part of my post, IF YOU PLEASE, and you will be aware WHO JESUS WAS ON HIS RESURRECTION AND WHO JESUS BECAME ON THE SAME EVENING, PRECISELY AFTER 6, JEWISH TIME;

    MORNING AND EVENING ONE DAY!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ,

     

    #890681
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    It was Jesus body that was resurrected on resurrection day, His spirit was in the hands of the Father at the time of the last breath on the cross. I believe that “today I have begotten you” refers to the Son according to the flesh, from the dead. Thus He is called the Firstborn from the dead. That was the day that the Son received the promise made to David, that David’s son would not undergo decay, and would be installed as King on the eternal throne at the right hand of the Father.

    Cheers! LU

    #890716
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  Thus Jesus is both created and not created!

    the fact that all is created by him, in him, and for him!

    Carmel, these are excerpts from the prayer of the Apostles in Acts 4…

    When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them… Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed… stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.

    Carmel, please tell me who the underlined word “You” refers to.

     

    #890717
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  THERE IS A DISPUTE BETWEEN A LAWYER AND AN ARCHITECT !  DO YOU MEAN THAT A MEDIATOR CANNOT BE  ANOTHER  LAWYER OR ANOTHER ARCHITECT?

    Not at all.  I’m telling you that if the dispute is between Architect John and Lawyer Jim, the mediator cannot be EITHER Architect John OR Lawyer Jim.  A mediator cannot be one of the parties he mediates between.

    In the case we’re discussing, one of the parties is “God”.  Therefore Jesus, as mediator cannot be “God”.

     

    #890718
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: I was arguing that God is not a man (or can not become a man). An immortal being can not become mortal if so there is no meaning of immortality.

    There are different meanings of “immortal”.  It can mean “from AND to eternity” – as is the case with God.  It can also mean “to eternity” – as is the case with God’s spirit sons who are not FROM eternity, but cannot die from accidental or natural causes.

    The first meaning applies ONLY to God, and no one else.  The second case applies to Jesus, Satan, Gabriel, Dagon, Michael, Azazel, etc.  The second case would have also applied to Adam and Eve if they had eaten from the tree of life, instead of from the tree of knowledge.  Remember that natural death wasn’t automatically included when God created Adam and Eve.  In fact He told them that they would die IF they ate from the tree of knowledge, right?  Until that act, their mortality wasn’t decided.  Who knows… if they had lived for 1000 years on earth without ever breaking God’s command, perhaps He would have granted them to eat from the tree of life and gain immortality.  After all, that tree was there in the garden for a reason, right?

    And if that had happened, Adam and Eve would be “immortal” – but only in the second sense, as they were not “FROM eternity”, but would be, from that point on, “TO eternity”.

    Paul’s use of immortal in 1 Timothy is clearly the former meaning:  “Both from AND to eternity”.  This is why he attributes this immortality only to God.

    So now the question of whether someone who is granted immorality can be destroyed by the one who granted it.  Do you really think that after God grants immortality to someone, He is POWERLESS to take it back?

    Job 1:21… Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah.

    Eccl 12:7… Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    And what’s more, we have the words of God Himself…

    Psalm 82:6-7…  I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But like mortals you will die

    It can’t get much clearer than that, Adam.  God is clearly telling immortal beings that they will die like mortal beings die.

     

    Adam:  If Jesus was literally begotten from God and is another immortal being, how can he leave his immortality and become like a man and die like a mortal?

    So these are my arguments.

    Not only does Ps 82 explain it clearly, but so does this passage…

    Phil 2:5-8…  Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, existing in the form of a god, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.  And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.

    So your arguments are answered – even with your invalid protest against the Book of Enoch. (Adam, you do know that flawed MEN decided what is in the cannon and what is not, right? 🙄)

     

    #890720
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Please prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah with the requirements as specified in Hebrew Bible and there ends the matter.

    Mike:  Please first prove that God actually exists via the Hebrew Bible. 

    Adam: It’s funny too as you are avoiding my question on Jesus’ Messiahship. I need not prove the existence of God based on Hebrew Bible as it’s also the part of the Christian Bible.

    Not funny, but actually sad that you didn’t understand my point.  Let me lay it out for you…

    Mike:  Adam, the NT confirms Jesus as the Messiah because the OT says the Messiah will do A, B, and C… and Jesus did A, B, and C.

    Adam:  I reject the NT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that Jesus did A, B and C.

     

    Adam:  The OT proves God because it tells how God did A, B and C.

    Atheist:  I reject your OT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that God did A, B and C.

    Understand now?  If you cannot use the OT (which the atheist rejects) to prove the existence of God, then how do you expect me to use the NT (which you reject) to prove that Jesus is the Messiah?

    In other words, your request for me to use something that you reject to prove something to you is illogical.  And that’s why I’m taking another route with you to get to the bottom of WHY you reject the NT.  It seems to be working so far, despite your repeated attempts to divert from the questions. 😉

    #890721
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    So that being said, back to that other route I’m trying…

    There are only 3 possibilities, Adam…

    1.  Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.

    2.  Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.

    3.  God never did miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which of those 3 do you believe?

    #890723
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi Proclaimer, do you mean Jesus did not really die like any mortal?

    Jesus died like any other mortal.  If he did not die and be raised as a true mortal man, then what hope have we to die and be raised as true mortal men?

    But to die as a mortal man does not mean to cease to exist entirely.

    Luke 20:37-38… Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.

    Note that Jesus uses the example of Moses (from the OT) to prove his point, Adam.  So yes, even according to the OT, this point is accurate.

    Matthew 10:28…  Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

    So even after we die as mortal men, our soul (or very essence of who we are) lives on.  And it will continue to live on (making us immortal) until God acts one way or the other.  On the day of judgment, God (or more accurately, the Judge that God appointed, namely Jesus) will pass judgement upon our souls.  Some will be judge favorably and remain immortal with new bodies given to them.  Some will be judged disfavorably and their souls (which were immortal up until that point) will be destroyed in Gehenna.

    So yes, things that cannot die naturally or by accident are immortal.  But those things can be destroyed by Him who made them in the first place.

    I love it when one post allows me to kill two or three birds with one stone. 😊

     

    #890724
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Was Jesus begotten from the grave? If so, by whom?

    Yes, Jesus was raised from the dead by his and our God, YHWH.

    Kathi, did God send His only-begotten Son into the world?  Did God offer up His only-begotten Son as a sacrifice?

    The answers to my questions will render your argument moot before you even make it.  Acts 13:33 can’t possibly mean that Jesus became God’s only-begotten Son when he was raised from the dead – or else God wouldn’t have been able to send His only-begotten into the world or offer His only-begotten up as a sacrifice.  Understand?  Kangaroo Jack made the same mistake here years ago.

    And since that is the case, the most natural meaning of Psalm 2:7 (if we both eliminate any preconceived notions that we might have) is that the words were said by God to His firstborn Son shortly after the moment that God brought that Son into existence.  Would you agree?

    #890725
    gadam123
    Participant

    Jesus died like any other mortal.  If he did not die and be raised as a true mortal man, then what hope have we to die and be raised as true mortal men?

    Hi Mike, thanks for your reply to my query to Proclaimer on mortal death. Yes that was the point I was raising on Jesus’ nature if he was dead like a mortal and I was questioning on the definition of the immortality.

    But to die as a mortal man does not mean to cease to exist entirely.

    Luke 20:37-38… Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.

    Note that Jesus uses the example of Moses (from the OT) to prove his point, Adam.  So yes, even according to the OT, this point is accurate.

    The above interpretation was of the writer of Luke Gospel and not of Moses. The Hebrew Bible was simply quoting the statement of God Yahweh “I am (Yahweh) God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” It doesn’t mean Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not really dead.

    So even after we die as mortal men, our soul (or very essence of who we are) lives on.  And it will continue to live on (making us immortal) until God acts one way or the other.  On the day of judgment, God (or more accurately, the Judge that God appointed, namely Jesus) will pass judgement upon our souls.  Some will be judge favorably and remain immortal with new bodies given to them.  Some will be judged disfavorably and their souls (which were immortal up until that point) will be destroyed in Gehenna.

    So yes, things that cannot die naturally or by accident are immortal.  But those things can be destroyed by Him who made them in the first place.

    So you think our human souls are immortal? We find the similar beliefs in our Hinduism and Buddhism where the soul goes through a process of reincarnation after the death of a person and there is no death to the soul.

    If this so called immortal soul can be killed by God as stated by you, is it really called an immortality?

     

    #890726
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: If Jesus was a creature before HIS incarnation he could not become the savior of the world…

    Why not?

    Berean:  BUT BECAUSE Jesus covered our humanity on his divinity, HE WAS  QUALIFIED TO BECOME THE SAVIOR IF THE WORLD.

    I don’t deny that Jesus was, and is, divine.  He is the second most powerful god in existence after all.  But where can I read that one of the qualifications for being a savior of man is divinity?

    Berean:  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him(form of God) the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    That’s a bad translation.  Phil 2 teaches that although Jesus was existing as a god, the idea that he was therefore equal to his own God was nonsense to him.  The lesson is that Jesus wasn’t afraid to leave his cushy position at the right hand of his and our God – but willingly left his lofty existence – knowing he would suffer greatly – for the sake of humanity and because it was the will of his God.

    Remember that he consistently taught that he came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but to do the will of his God who sent him, right?

    #890728
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    In the beginning, if Jesus was not God (having the same attributes as his Father) and in harmony with Him, he would have had no right to be the savior of the world, because only the Creator can save his creatures.
    The greatest of (created) angels could not have been a candidate for this mission.

    #890729
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  The above interpretation was of the writer of Luke Gospel and not of Moses. The Hebrew Bible was simply quoting the statement of God Yahweh “I am (Yahweh) God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” It doesn’t mean Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not really dead.

    The above was a quote from Jesus the Messiah of God – not an “interpretation” from Luke.  But how about you address Jesus’ point now?  We both agree that – even after all three men had died – Yahweh still claimed to be their God.  (He did not say he WAS the God of these men, but that He IS the God of these men, right?)

    So… is Yahweh a God of the dead?

    #890731
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  So you think our human souls are immortal?

    Well, what’s the definition of “immortal”?  A living thing is immortal if it will not cease to exist by natural or accidental causes.  You have already said that the OT speaks about living again after death, right?  And we learn in the OT that after Samuel died, he still existed – but as a sleeping person in another realm.  Saul had the witch of Endor awaken him from his sleep, remember?  So Samuel had died, but the essence of Samuel still existed, right?

    Now, since Samuel no longer consists of flesh that decays, is there any valid reason to think that his essence will eventually grow old and die so that he completely ceases to exist?  I can’t think of any.  And if there is no reason to assume that Samuel’s soul would suffer aging and decay and death, then it stands to reason that the essence of Samuel will continue to sleep on forever until someone else acts to either wake him or destroy what is left of him.  Until that time, he is, for all intents and purposes, “immortal”.

    And according to the NT, people like Samuel will be awakened from their slumber to face judgement.  And at that time, Samuel will either continue to exist or be destroyed for good – depending on the judgment.

     

    Adam:  If this so called immortal soul can be killed by God as stated by you, is it really called an immortality?

    It’s immortal in that it will not die on its own.  Left alone, it would exist forever.  But God won’t leave it alone for eternity.  God will act, and the soul will be awakened, either to everlasting life or everlasting “second death” (Rev 2:11, 21:8, etc).

    #890732
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  In the beginning, if Jesus was not God (having the same attributes as his Father) and in harmony with Him, he would have had no right to be the savior of the world, because only the Creator can save his creatures.
    The greatest of (created) angels could not have been a candidate for this mission.

    Yeah, I hear what you’re saying.  I heard it the first few times you said it too.  I’m asking you to SHOW me this teaching in the scriptures.  You can keep claiming it with bigger and bolder type until pigs fly, but that doesn’t do anyone any good because you’re not supporting your claim with scripture.

    Btw, Jesus IS the greatest of created angels – according to scripture.

    #890734
    Berean
    Participant

    Yeah, I hear what you’re saying.  I heard it the first few times you said it too.  I’m asking you to SHOW me this teaching in the scriptures.  You can keep claiming it with bigger and bolder type until pigs fly, but that doesn’t do anyone any good because you’re not supporting your claim with scripture.

    Btw, Jesus IS a created angel – according to scripture. 

    Me

    No Jesus IS the creator approved of God, because HE WAS GOD IN THE BIGINNING .

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.

     

     

     

    #890745
    gadam123
    Participant

    It can’t get much clearer than that, Adam.  God is clearly telling immortal beings that they will die like mortal beings die.

    Hi Mike I appreciate your lengthy reply to my questions on immortality. Yes you have clearly brought out the logics on the immortality from the Bible. I am also engaged in understanding the death and afterlife these days. But I find there is little on these things in the Hebrew Bible and it was developed during the intertestamental period. And Christianity adapted these developed ideas on the resurrection and afterlife. This is the reason why I don’t give much credit to the NT when compared to Hebrew Bible.

    I am in hurry and will reply your posts in details later.

    Thank you.

    #890746
    gadam123
    Participant

    And if that had happened, Adam and Eve would be “immortal” – but only in the second sense, as they were not “FROM eternity”, but would be, from that point on, “TO eternity”

    Do you think Adam and Eve were the literal human beings ever existed on this planet? The stories of the creation in the Bible were framed similar to the ancient epics like Epic of Gilgamesh in the ANE. I do think man was created as a mortal being but was given opportunity get lengthy life by eating the fruit of Tree of Life which was available to them along with the so called Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of Garden of Eden. I always wonder why Adam and Eve were not aware of this so called Tree of Life which was very well allowed by God to cherish its fruits.  The resurrection and eternal life were never promised in the whole of Torah for get about the creation stories in Genesis. These concepts were developed during later period may be after Third BCE which first appeared in the Apocalyptic book of Daniel as a promise afterlife.

    #890747
    gadam123
    Participant

    So now the question of whether someone who is granted immorality can be destroyed by the one who granted it.  Do you really think that after God grants immortality to someone, He is POWERLESS to take it back?

    Job 1:21… Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah.

    Eccl 12:7… Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    And what’s more, we have the words of God Himself…

    Psalm 82:6-7…  I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But like mortals you will die…

    It can’t get much clearer than that, Adam.  God is clearly telling immortal beings that they will die like mortal beings die.

    Hi Mike, the verses you quoted from Job and  Eccl talk about the death of a man. Here the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God. Where is the so called immortal soul here in these verse?

    Ps 82 , 89, Deut 32:8-9 and few other texts in the Hebrew Bible reflect the Polytheistic environment of the Hebrew religion where the God Yahweh shown as subordinate to the most high like El Elyon and he sits in the council of so called gods. So the assumption of concept of immortality to these so called gods as quoted in your post is beyond the Biblical concept of the immortality and eternal life. The immortality of the soul is another developed idea based on the Platonic duality which is visible in some of the texts of the NT.

    #890748
    gadam123
    Participant

    So that being said, back to that other route I’m trying…

    There are only 3 possibilities, Adam…

    1.  Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.

    2.  Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.

    3.  God never did miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which of those 3 do you believe?

    Hi Mike, I have already replied number of times on these questions of your on Jesus’ Messiahship which are not relevant . If you want the  debate on Jesus’ Messiahship you can argue on the appropriate thread. I can transfer these arguments of yours to that thread…..

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