John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #891201
    carmel
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    Carmel:  THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE ALL BY HIMSELF IN RELATION TO HUMAN REASONING!

    EXCEPT    IN/BY/FOR JESUS!

    More nonsense.  As if God was somehow UNABLE to create things all by Himself. 

    ME: When will you get it into your mind and stop putting God in the same basket as humans: Read:

    Isaiah 55:11 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my word be,

    which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    TELL US SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR WORD Mike, please?

    DOES IT RETURN TO YOU, AT LEAST?

    DOES IT DO WHATSOEVER YOU PLEASE?

    DOES IT PROSPER IN THE THINGS FOR WHICH YOU SENT IT?

    The above scripture Mike is a clear declaration from God that HE, though God is also SHE, DID NOTHING WITHOUT HIS OWN SPOKEN WORD, OR MORE PRECISE WITHOUT

    HIS OWN SPIRIT/THE HOLY GHOST HIDDEN IN HIS OWN WORD!

    Isaiah 42:1 BEHOLD my servant, (“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN) I will uphold him: my elect,

    my soul (THE HOLY GHOST) delighteth in him:(THE SON OF MAN)

    I  HAVE GIVEN MY SPIRIT UPON HIM (BEFORE THE WORLD WAS)

    he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    THUS THE PHRASE “ALL BY HIMSELF” ONCE YOU MENTION GOD, YOU MUST ALSO INCLUDE THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!

    NOW GOD HAS SEVEN SPIRITS! THAT MEANS THAT BOTH “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, THE LAMB OF GOD, SLAIN…Rev.13:8 AND THE HOLY GHOST, WITHIN THEM, CARRIED THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD, Rev.3:1 Rev.5:6.

    In relation to Isaiah 55:11, IT ALSO MEANS THAT GOD, HIDDEN IN HIS OWN WORD,

    DID WHATEVER PLEASE HIM.

    THE ENTIRE CREATION!

    John1:1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    YOU: More nonsense.  As if God was somehow UNABLE to create things all by Himself. 

    Mike, when you mention God and all things related to HIM, keep In mind that YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! Unless you accept the fact that both”THE WORD” and the Holy Ghost are also GOD HIMSELF!

    THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS OF CREATION, WHILE GOD REMAINED IN HIS GLORY IN HEAVEN, HE  STILL CREATED THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL BY HIMSELF, DESPITE BY “THE WORD” AND THE HOLY GHOST WITHIN, Isaiah 42:1

    John 4:34 Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work. 35Do you not say, There are yet four months, and then the harvest cometh? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and see the countries; for they are white already to harvest.

    36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting:

    that both he (“THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN) that soweth, and he (THE HOLY GHOST)  that reapeth, may rejoice

    TOGETHER

    (GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE IN JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS, GODMAN, JOHN 13:31-32)

    37For in this is the saying true:

    That it is ONE MAN(“THE WORD” made flesh THE SON OF MAN) that soweth, and

    it is another (SPIRIT, THE HOLY GHOST) that reapeth.

    38I have sent you to reap that in which you did not labour:

    others have laboured, (GOD, BOTH IN THE HOLY GHOST and IN “THE WORD”) and you have entered into their labours.

    You: But let’s expose your lunacy…

    Carmel, when God created Adam on the 6th day,

    what “human” insights could Jesus have given God,

    seeing that Jesus hadn’t ever been a human at that time?

    ME: POOR Mike, YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK, WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    John1:3 All things were made by him:

    and without him was made nothing that was made. 

    Can you see it, Mike???

    UNLESS YOU ARE AWARE OF THE PROCESS OF GOD,

    WHATEVER YOU SAY IS USELESS!

    Colossians 1:15Who is the IMAGE (JESUS CHRIST GODMAN)  of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature: 

    IN THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL Mr. Mike:

    ADAM WAS NOT JUST ADAM, ALL BY HIMSELF, BUT ALSO

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN YET TO BE,  AS “THE WORD” SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE WITHIN

    ADAM’S HEART, HIS CREATOR, AS

    THE BEGINNING,

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE IN THIS CASE ADAM!

    16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him.

     17And he is before all, (JESUS, EVEN BEFORE ADAM WAS, HE WAS ALREADY

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN, IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER, John17:5 )

    and by him all things consist.

     18And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is the beginning,

    the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold

    the primacy: 

    AGAIN AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL:

    JESUS IS THE BEGINNING OF ALL BEGINNINGS,

    THE FIRST OF ALL THE FIRSTS, IN OUR CASE ADAM!

    NOW ATTENTION PLEASE,  Mike, WHICH ALSO IN ACTUAL FACT  MEANS  THAT

     JESUS CHRIST GODMAN IS THE BEGINNING,

    THE FIRST-EVER!

    PRE-EXITED EVEN BEFORE CREATION STARTED! READ:

    Genesis 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness:…..

    AGAIN: AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL:

    LET US MAKE MAN TO

    OUR IMAGE,

    WHY OUR IMAGE?

    WHAT IMAGE Mike?

    OBVIOUS THE IMAGE OF

    THE FATHER, SPIRIT, embodied in
    THE SON, FLESH! 

    JESUS CHRIST

    THE FIRST-EVER EMBODIMENT OF GOD!

    THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT!

    GODMAN! NO?

    NOW READ SCRIPTURE:

    27And God (BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON) created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him:

    male (IN THE FATHER, SPIRIT) and female (IN THE SON, FLESH) he created them. 

    Philippians 2:5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (BEFORE CREATION)

    6Who being in the form of God, (THE EMBODIMENT OF GODMAN)

    thought it not robbery TO BE EQUAL with God: (DEFINITELY NOT! HE WAS GODMAN)

    7But emptied himself, (FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH AND ETERNAL LIFE)

    taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11And that every tongue should confess that

    the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

    AS HE WAS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    John17:5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,

    with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #891203
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You: And if you want to say that

    the Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead who spoke through it, then

    I can claim that Moses, the vision, and David are members of the Godhead who spoke through them.

    ME: WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A PERSON WHO PUTS GOD IN THE SAME BASKET OF HUMANS IN YOUR CASE 

    MOSES, THE VISION, and DAVID! 

    Mike, WHEN GOD ACTS THROUGH MORTAL HUMANS IN FLESH, THE ACTION IS SUBJECT TO

    THE  TANGIBLE PROCESS OF THE FLESH OF THIS EARTH! NO?

    WHAT IS FLESH IS FLESH OK?

    LIKEWISE, WHEN GOD ACTS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT, OR “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD! 

    THE ACTION IS SUBJECT TO THE SPIRITUAL MYSTERIOUS  PROCESS OF GOD! NO? MR. Mike!

    WHAT IS SPIRIT IS SPIRIT! OK?

    THERE’S ONLY ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES!

    THAT MEANS THAT SINCE THERE IS THE NEED FOR A MEDIATOR,

    GOD IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE WITHOUT

    THIS MEDIATOR/SPIRIT! NO?

    ESPECIALLY WHEN HIS CREATURES ARE IMPERFECT AND MORTALS, AS GOD PERFECT AND ETERNAL, COULD IN NO WAY ABIDE WITHIN

    IMPERFECT AND  MORTAL CREATURES; 

    AS CARRIERS FOR HIS SPIRIT, AND IF GOD IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO ABIDE WITHIN IMPERFECT AND MORTAL CREATURES HE MIGHT AS WELL NOT CREATES AT ALL! NO? SINCE HE GAVE FREE WILL TO HIS CREATURES EVEN TO BECOME HIS ENEMIES! BUT ONCE, GOD, ALL-KNOWING, 

    ENGRAFTED

    “THE WORD” SPIRIT, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, ETERNAL LIFE,  AS THIS MEDIATOR/SPIRIT,

    FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IN THE FIRST-EVER CREATURE’S HEART, AND IN ALL THE EVENTUAL CREATURES THROUGH HIM, GOD, WHO IS THE LIGHT! NOT ONLY COULD CREATE BUT ALSO  COULD ABIDE AS ETERNAL LIFE  EVEN 

    IN DARKNESS, SATAN! BUT ONLY HIDDEN, WITHIN 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN!

    THE FATHER IN THE SON! and 

    THE SON IN THE FATHER!

    NO GOD NO JESUS,  AD INTRA

    NO JESUS NO GOD, ONCE CREATION STARTED!

    AD EXTRA

    OUTSIDE THE GODHEAD!

    You: And if you want to say that

    the Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead who spoke through it, then

    I can claim that Moses, the vision, and David are members of the Godhead who spoke through them.

    ME, can you see your WORLDLY CORRUPTED WISDOM OR MORE PRECISE

    YOUR FOOLISHNESS,  

    IN ORDER FOR MOSES AND ALL OTHER CREATURES NO MATTER WHOM AND WHAT, TO ACT FOR GOD, OR GOD THROUGH THEM, WITHIN THEMSELVES MUST HAVE ENGRAFTED

    THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR 

    AS NOTHING COULD  FUNCTION WITHOUT HIM! WELL CLEAR IN

    John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you,

    unless you abide in me. 

    5I am the vine; you the branches:

    he that abideth in me, and I in him,

    the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing.

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, THE FACT THAT IT IS  CALLED SO, TO BE CLEAR

    THE SON ATTRIBUTED TO HUMANITY!

    THE FACT THAT HE GAVE HIS OWN BODY TO THE HUMAN RACE ON

    HIS RESURRECTION, AND ESTABLISHED THE ENTIRE HUMANITY ALL IN HIMSELF

    CHILDREN OF GOD PERFECT IN

    HIMSELF!

    John 4:34 Jesus saith to them:

    My meat is to do the will of him that sent me,

    that I may perfect his work. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #891239
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel, now let’s do the same with Rev 4 and 5…

    Rev 4:2…  At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

    Notice there is only one person on that throne – not three.

    John1:1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,

    and the Word was God. 

    2The same was in the beginning with God.

     3All things were made BY HIM:

    and without HIM was made nothing that was made.

     4IN HIM was life,

    and the life was the light of men.

    Colossians 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 

    16For IN HIM were all things created in heaven and on earth,

    visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created BY HIM and IN HIM. 17And he is before all,

    and BY HIM all things CONSIST. 

    John14:16And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete,

    that he may abide with you forever.

    17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him;

    because HE shall abide with you,

    and shall be in you.

    John14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.:23 Jesus answered, and said to him:

    If anyone loves me, he will keep MY WORD, (SPIRIT)

    and my Father will love him, (SENDS THE HOLY SPIRIT)

    and WE (THE FATHER AND THE SON IN CHRIST) will come to him, and will make our abode with him. 

    1John1:That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,

    of the word of life:

     2For the life was manifested;

    and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you the life eternal, which was with the Father,

    and hath appeared to us:

     3That which we have seen and have heard, we declare unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship may be with the Father,

    and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effectual,

    and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto the division of the soul and the spirit, of the joints also and the marrow,

    and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

     13Neither is there any creature invisible in HIS sight:

    but all things are naked and open to HIS eyes,

    to whom our speech is. (“THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN)

    ME: Mike, WITH RESPECT TO THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES:

     YOU ARE ONE HUMAN PERSON!

    AS A PERSON YOU HAVE A BODY NAMED Mike!(1)

    AS A PERSON YOU ALSO HAVE A SOUL NAMED Mike(2)

    AS A PERSON YOU ALSO HAVE A SPIRIT A SPIRIT OF MAN NAMED Mike! (3)

    AS A PERSON YOU ARE A TRIUNE BEING, THOUGH CORRUPTED STILL IN

    THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF A TRIUNE GOD,

    IN JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS! Mr. Mike!

    WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

    Cont.

    AS A PERSON  YOU ALSO HAVE “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN AS A SPIRIT, YOUR CREATOR IN

    YOUR HEART, AT ALL COSTS! EVEN SLAIN….Rev.13:8

    ETERNAL LIFE,

    THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES!

    WHO SUSTAINS YOU OR ELSE

    YOU WON’T EXIST! (4)

    Are you in the position to give DETAIL HOW JESUS,

    SUSTAINS THE ENTIRE CREATION?

    LET’S CONTINUE:

    AS A CHRISTIAN PERSON IN JESUS CHRIST: 

    YOU ALSO HAVE  IN YOU, THE HOLY SPIRIT

    SENT BY JESUS CHRIST,

    FROM THE FATHER! (5)

    AND IF YOU HAPPENED TO LOVE JESUS AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS!

    YOU ALSO HAVE IN YOU, THE FATHER AND THE SON, IN CHRIST,

    GODMAN! (6)

    SIX SPIRITS IN ALL Mr.Mike in order to produce you so!

    WHILE YOU ARE ON EARTH AS A MORTAL HUMAN BEING! AS A CHRISTIAN YOU LIVE ON EARTH ETERNAL LIFE AND NEVER DIE EVEN ON YOUR DEATH!

    John11:26And every one that liveth, and believeth in me,

    shall not die forever.

    Believest thou this?

    IN ORDER FOR GOD IN CHRIST TO ABIDE IN YOU AS HIS CARRIER! EX SATANIC, 

    TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD!

    WHEN GOD THE FATHER EMBODIED IN CHRIST  and VICE VERSA ABIDES

    ALL IN ALL!

    AND THEY ALL BE ONE!

    John 17:21 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 

    21That they all may be one,

    as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;

    that they also may be ONE in

    US;…

    THE FATHER AND THE SON

    GODMAN

    JESUS CHRIST

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

    #891608
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike……..both your last two posts were “spot on” brother.

    👍🙂

    #891670
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You can see that Jesus is not the “YOU” who sits on the throne and who created all things. Jesus is instead the one who takes the scroll from the right hand of the “YOU” who sits on the throne and who created all things.

    Exactly. What say the detractors?

    #891672
    gadam123
    Participant

    The Bible teaches that there is one God. God created everything. And He created all things through the Word / Jesus Christ / Son of God.

    And while we may not understand how that works exactly, it doesn’t give us the right to input our own ideas and make Jesus the creator. He is the head for sure, but not the creator. Scripture is clear. All things were created through him and for him.

    Yes this is the problem created by the NT writers by including Jesus the so called Messiah in God’s creation process which is no where found in the Hebrew Bible.

    #891675
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Problem? Where is the expectation that the Old Testament should reveal everything? It’s not there is it? If it did reveal all, then there would be no need for further revelation. Furthermore, anyone could tell you not all is revealed even now. Back to the drawing board gadam.

    but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

    Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past…

    He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him…

    You have missed the boat gadam. Your mind sets rules to suit your own outcome. We call that delusion.

    #891678
    gadam123
    Participant

    Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past…

    He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him…

    Was it a mystery or the newly developed/invented ideas?

    OK, can you show us how Jesus was involved in God’s creation in the beginning?

    #891683
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……No they can’t because Jesus was not alive at that time.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene

    #891684
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    Adam……No they can’t because Jesus was not alive at that time.

    One of the biggest silly things you can say. Gadam can’t believe you.

    Gadam knows that it is written in the NT but he doubts, you close your eyes not to see, too sad, you deprive yourself of the true knowledge on God and on Christ.

    #891686
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless

    #891688
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    OK, can you show us how Jesus was involved in God’s creation in the beginning?

    Are you after a video? Or perhaps you can read the text for yourself? But I will post some basic logic for you to ponder.

    1. There is a God and he is eternal and because love exists, it must originate in God.
    2. Because we live, there must have been a first living person to be with God.
    3. God could create things for this person, just as we do for our own wife or family.
    4. If creation needed redeeming, then it would show great love if this person was the one to give his life up to save his family.
    5. It would be logical for the messiah to be the one whom God created everything for,rather than just create some random dude to take the job on, as gene believes..
    6. Free will allows true live to exist. But it also allows living beings to reject God.
    7. If we reject God, then obviously God will not force you to have eternal life with him.
    8. If you reject life, then that leaves you the other option. I’ll let you answer that one.
    #891689
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU: OK, can you show us how Jesus was involved in God’s creation in the beginning?

    John1:1IN the beginning was the Word,

    and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 

    3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

    God could never abide in creatures DIRECTLY!

    IN ORDER FOR THE CREATURES TO EXIST AND LIVE 

    IN THEIR FREE WILL! EVEN AS ENEMIES OF GOD!

    THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL IN JESUS, while

    GOD IS ONLY IN JESUS! Well clear in

    John17:23 I IN THEM,

    (ONLY JESUS, ETERNAL LIFE, IN CREATURES) and

    THOU IN ME;

    (ONLY THE FATHER IN JESUS AND VICE VERSA!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS THE  ONLY HOUSE OF GOD, THE ONLY INTERMEDIATE SPIRIT BETWEEN HUMANS IN FLESH AND GOD IN SPIRIT)

    that they may be made perfect

    (ONLY BY JESUS, ) in

    ONE:…. (GODMAN JESUS) Well clear in 

    John4:34 Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me,

    that I may perfect his work. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #891690
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your thoughtful reply to my query. But I could not find the following in the Hebrew Bible;

    God could create things for this person, just as we do for our own wife or family.
    If creation needed redeeming, then it would show great love if this person was the one to give his life up to save his family.
    It would be logical for the messiah to be the one whom God created everything for,rather than just create some random dude to take the job on, as gene believes..

    God only created the first man Adam as per the creation story in the Genesis. The concept of Messiah came later in the Hebrew Bible and its religion. It is entirely different from that of Christianity. So no such dude as you claim in God’s creation involved for saving the so called family of God. It’s all purely the invention of the NT writers and Christianity allegedly involving Jesus the so called Messiah in God’s creation.

    #891692
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Where did I “ever say” God randomly, Choose  anything ?, the man Jesus, was part of God the Fathers plan right from the beginning,  Even before the world began, and so we’re we , and everything in this world was also.  And when the right time came Jesus came into his being, the same applies to us, every man in his own order. That included Jesus Christ also.

    This whole creation was made for “perfected Mankind”,  Jesus was the First of “MANKIND”  to fulfill God the Fathers intended Goal for “all of mankind “,  The first of many. 

    Your whole argument is full of “if’s” , could, etc,  which tells me , you really don’t know do you?

    peace and love to you and yours Proclaimer………gene

     

     

    #891693
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……1 Cor 3:16…..“know you not that you “ARE” the TEMPLE of GOD, and that the Spirit of God dwells “in” you.  17….If any man defile the TEMPLE of God, him Shall God destroy;  for the TEMPLE  of God IS holy, which TEMPLE YOU “ARE”. 

    Carmel…..  You are of them that defile the temple of God, by Preaching that Jesus is God,  instead of being a temple of God , like we are, who have the Spirit of God “in’ us also.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene

    #891716
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your thoughtful reply to my query. But I could not find the following in the Hebrew Bible;

    Lol. I don’t think I can help you gadam.

    #891887
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: Proclaimer…….Where did I “ever say” God randomly, Choose  anything ?,

    the man Jesus, was part of God the Fathers plan right from the beginning,  Even before the world began,

    and so we’re we , and everything in this world was also. 

     

    ME: YOU ARE A GENIUS???

    I MIGHT AS WELL CALL YOU

    JESUS CHRIST!!!

    ACCORDING TO YOU, JESUS IS ONLY

    PART OF THE FATHER’S PLAN???

    SCRIPTURE:

    John10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE!

    John1:1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,

    and the Word was God. 

    2The same was in the beginning with God. 

    3All things were made by him:

    and without him was made nothing that was made.

     4In him was life,

    and the life was the light of men.

    Colossians 15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature: 

    16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.

     17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

     18And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold the primacy: 

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that

    ALL FULLNESS SHOULD DWELL;

     20And through him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself,

    making peace through the blood of his cross,

    both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead corporeally;

    John15:5I am the vine;

    you the branches:

    YOU ARE A MERE USELESS BRANCH, Mr.Gene!!!

    READ

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.

    LUCKY I RAN OUT OF TIME, AS MORE WOULD HAVE BEEN POSTED!

    ANYWAY; That is more than enough simply to make you aware of your

    corrupted carnal-minded nonsense!

    MY PRAYERS FOR YOU TONIGHT, AT LEAST

    TO GIVE JESUS HIS DUE RESPECT!

    John5:23 That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father.

    He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

     

    #891899
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……If I were doing the Fathers Will “only” And not my own Will,  I could say the same thing Jesus said, “if you see ME are seeing the Father.  It’s all about who’s Will is being done,  yours or the Fathers. Remember what Jesus said?,   ” the Son of man , came not to do “HIS” WILL, but the Will of him who “SENT HIM” ,  you haven’t figured that out yet?

    AND again…..”the son of man can do “nothing “OF” himself’’.,  has that scripture been removed from  your bible? 

    Carmel the Jesus you teach and preach is not the Jesus of our scriptures,  but a Jesus predicated around many “false”,  Trinitarian teachings over many years.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

    #892283
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But you are not the image of the invisible God, nor the firstborn over all creation.

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