John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,321 through 23,340 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #890401
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam: I always wonder what is this “God created all things though him”?

    Mike: Me too.  What exactly does it mean that God created all things through Jesus?  We’re not given any specifics, so we’re left with the knowledge that God is the one who created, and He did that through Jesus somehow.  The bottom line is that God, not Jesus, is our Creator.

    Thank you at least you agree with one of arguments on the NT writers who wanted involve Jesus in God’s creation.

    #890403
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam:  Christianity created myths on Messiah and made him non-human and alien to us.

    Mike: Do you also consider God to be a “myth” and “alien to us” because He is also “non-human”?

    I think your question is not relevant to the point I raised.

    #890406
    Berean
    Participant

    Jesus Christ is Lord. So he is in charge of creation. He delegates on behalf of God.

    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.  

     

    Hi Proclaimer

    You have to be God to:
    …. uphold all things by the word of his power, (power of Christ) [Hebrews: 1: 3]
    or in Colossians 1:17
    …. and by him all things consist …

    The truth is that the Son of God inherited all the attributes of the Father (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence)

    Is it hard to understand that the Son inherited ALL that the Father IS and all of his divine attributes and powers.
    In any case, that’s what Hebrews 1: 3 makes me understand, to name just this one.
    the Son is: the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, ….

    #890408
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike:  

    YOU : In which scripture(s) can I read about “glorified spiritual flesh”?  

    Carmel: YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK!

    Jesus Christ GODMAN!

    I REPEAT MR. Mike!

    YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK!

    Scripture:

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,

    and one mediator of God and men,

    the man Christ Jesus: 

    The above is Gene’s speciality, but with every respect,

    he is completely blocked off the truth in his carnal bind  I’m afraid and you are even 

    worse!

    THE ABOVE Mr. Mike is the clearest evidence that 

    JESUS POSSESSES

    A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #890409
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Adam. Clearly, you side with the Pharisees. Your doubts and protest are very similar it seems. Do you consider yourself a Pharisee or are you just siding with them on the issue of Jesus messiahship?

    #890410
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You have to be God to:
    …. uphold all things by the word of his power, (power of Christ) [Hebrews: 1: 3]
    or in Colossians 1:17
    …. and by him all things consist …

    The truth is that the Son of God inherited all the attributes of the Father (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence)

    Is it hard to understand that the Son inherited ALL that the Father IS and all of his divine attributes and powers.
    In any case, that’s what Hebrews 1: 3 makes me understand, to name just this one.
    the Son is: the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person

    Othing you say here makes Jesus God. It makes him like God. The most like God, but not God.

    He is the image of the invisible God. An image of God and a Son of God clearly means to any clear thinking person, that he is not God. He is not his own image. He is not his own Son.

    Even children would know that because they havent been fully indoctrinated yet.

    #890415
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam. Clearly, you side with the Pharisees. Your doubts and protest are very similar it seems. Do you consider yourself a Pharisee or are you just siding with them on the issue of Jesus messiahship?

    Hi Proclaimer, you made me laugh. Don’t worry I am neither Pharisee nor a Jew.

    #890466
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But you do sound like them. That is my point.

    #890479
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  You believe that the Eternal One was not always a father, right?

    Right.

    Psalm 2:7

    NET… The king says, “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me: ‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!'”

    NIV…  I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

    NLT…  The king proclaims the LORD’s decree: “The LORD said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father.”

    At the exact moment that God begat His first child, God became a father.

    #890480
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  I am not disputing his existence as a Jewish man.

    Great!  We’re making progress.  We both agree that Jesus from Nazareth existed.

    Adam:  Performing signs and wonders nothing new to Hebrew scriptures when we take the examples of Moses, Elijah, Elisha and other men of God.

    It sounds like we agree (at least to the possibility) that God did miracles through Jesus.

    Adam:  But that can not make him Messiah.

    Actually, the OT men you mentioned (and many others) were messiahs of God.  But how many of these messiahs who were anointed by God and spoke the words of God to the people were liars?  Do you know of any time that God performed miracles through a liar?  I don’t.

    So do you think that God performed miracles through Jesus, a man who lied about being the awaited messiah?

    #890481
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  I think your question is not relevant to the point I raised.

    It’s very relevant.  You reject the idea that the prophesied messiah could have pre-existed as a spirit entity.  You opine that God would not send a savior that was non-human and alien to us.

    I’m simply questioning your reasoning on this matter, since God Himself is non-human and alien to us.  Why can’t a God who is non-human send a savior who is also non-human?  I’m just pointing out a logical fallacy to your argument.

    #890483
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  You have to be God to:
    …. uphold all things by the word of his power, (power of Christ) [Hebrews: 1: 3]
    or in Colossians 1:17
    …. and by him all things consist …

    Why?  Proclaimer already addressed this issue with scripture, Berean.  Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of the ENTIRE kingdom of Egypt.  At his very word, men could be killed or saved.  At his very word, things were bought, sold, built or destroyed.

    So one could say that by the word of Joseph’s power, Egypt was upheld through the seven year famine.  One could say that by Joseph, all things in Egypt were able to consist for many, many years.

    And Joseph didn’t have to BE Pharaoh (or even equal to him) in order to have all that power over Egypt, because that very power was GIVEN to Joseph BY Pharaoh in the first place.

    Do you understand the analogy?  Jesus doesn’t have to BE God (or even equal to Him) in order to have all the power he currently has, because that very power was GIVEN to Jesus BY his and our God in the first place.

     

    #890486
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: 

    THE ABOVE Mr. Mike is the clearest evidence that 

    JESUS POSSESSES
    A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    Then your evidence is not clear at all – especially if you would have quoted the rest of the statement.

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ, the man who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time.

    Can you see it now?  The man who died for us is now the mediator between us and God. This tells us that he was a man WHEN he died for us… not that he’s still a man.

    Acts 2:22… Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    Does the fact that Peter says Jesus WAS a man mean that Jesus is STILL a man?  Of course not.

    But while I have you here, notice that the scripture you posted clearly identifies “the man who gave himself as a ransom” as someone OTHER THAN “God”.   And in the verse I quoted, you have the direct answer to one of the questions I’ve been asking you for a month.  The answer is YES, God is the one who did the miracles THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.

    #890489
    gadam123
    Participant

    Actually, the OT men you mentioned (and many others) were messiahs of God.  But how many of these messiahs who were anointed by God and spoke the words of God to the people were liars?  Do you know of any time that God performed miracles through a liar?  I don’t.

    So do you think that God performed miracles through Jesus, a man who lied about being the awaited messiah?

    Hi Mike, thanks for your replies to my posts. Yes there were many anointed (messiahs ) in the Hebrew Bible but there will be only one Messiah who will be the warrior King as prophesied in the Tanakh through whom God is going to establish a Messianic rule on earth with Jerusalem as Capital. There is nothing to be taken as lie as you often quote in your posts here.

    Performing miracles and healing will not make any one as Messiah who will be a warrior King as promised. So Jesus would not qualify for such post.

    #890490
    gadam123
    Participant

    I’m simply questioning your reasoning on this matter, since God Himself is non-human and alien to us.  Why can’t a God who is non-human send a savior who is also non-human?  I’m just pointing out a logical fallacy to your argument.

    Yes there is no requirement for such non-human Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible. An alien becoming human and die like a mortal can only be found in a mythological religion. If anyone wants such mythological beings he can find many in our Indian religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and other pagan religions. I need not look towards Christianity for such stories. God is not  a human as per the Hebrew Bible and an immortal can not become a mortal.

    #890492
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

     

     

    Mike

    You don’t understand that Paul [in Colossians who says: “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” ]
    means that Christ by his divine power sustains all things in the universe. It is he who governs the laws of the universe created by his hand
    “and upholding all things BY the word of HIS power,” (Hebrews 1: 3)

    #890493
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…….Scripture say , sin entered in this world by “MAN” , and by “a MAN”   it was “atoned  for.”  No where does it say , by a being “morphed” into a human body was our sins atoned for.
    Jesus sure didn’t think he ever existed a real being until he was born on this earth,  He clearly said He was the root and offspring of David. All the Old Testament and the NewTestament writers  show him as a pure human being.

    The whole idea of Jesus being something other then a son of “mankind”, destroys God the Fathers, whole work “in”  perfecting “man”,  that was the very purpose God had in his mind before he ever created  the, first  man Adam,  The “MAN” Jesus is the perfect “human being” God  the Father was driving at for “all” human kind,  

    Satan has filled your minds with all kinds of “Lies” About Jesus being something  completely different then the rest of his human brothers and sisters. You people can’t see, if Satan Brakes your identity with him, on a human level, he destroys you from from thinking you can be exactly like him.

    But what does scripture say,

    Eh 4: 13…..Till we “all” come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God , “unto a PERFECT “MAN” , unto the “MEASURE” of the “STATURE” of the “FULNESS” OF “CHRIST” . 

    SATAN doesn’t want anyone to even think they can actually attain that Goal  ,  so he created the biggest  lie ever fostered on humanity,  the “LIE” is, Jesus is completely different then you and me.  that lie cause you to move Jesus away from your own personal identity with him, as a fellow human being, that lie works on all those who are not  of The truth.  It turns Jesus from a man into a God or what ever, but definitely no a real human being exactly like the rest of us all. The first who God the Father “PERFECTED” from humanity.

    Satans “LIE” works and is witnessed right here over ad over , every day.

    peace and love to you all and yours……….gene

    #890497
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME:  JESUS IS THE FIRSTBORN OF LUCIFER!

    IN THE BEGINNING (LUCIFER) WAS “THE WORD”

    You: First you post “Satan’s Dream”, and now this crap?  I am now convinced that the one you say talks to you is Satan, and not Jesus.

    Mike, First and foremost, most of what I POSTED and which for you are crap are not mine, but already revealed by others in the past.

    Matthew 13:52 He said unto them: Therefore every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is a

    householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure new things and old.

    YOU:Etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah for enough words to make an entire book.  

    Carmel, try talking less and saying more, okay? 

    ME: More blah blah blah, for the sake of truth!

    TRUTH HURTS

    Now. things which for a reason or another you cannot fathom,

    ARE FOR YOU A CRAP? 

    GOD WHO IS UNFATHOMABLE IS ALSO A CRAP FOR YOU?

    Colosians 1:15 Who is THE IMAGE of the invisible God,

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE.

    The above as we all know is a reference to Jesus. But for those few who know, it is also a reference to Lucifer.

    Now, Lucifer was the first creature ever created in the image of God, the first carrier of God in relation to the LIGHT/WISDOM. The first son of God, androgynous,  male and female, CREATED.

    THE BEGINNING! THE LIGHT BRINGER! THE MORNING STAR! THE FIRST ANGEL WHO OWNED A LUMINOUS SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL BODY. HE, PHYSICALLY, AS THE BEGINNING, WAS THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL IN HIM IN RELATION TO THE LIGHT/WISDOM.

    THUS LUCIFER WAS THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE;

    CREATED ALL IN HIM PHYSICALLY ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE! believe it or not, it’s your pigeon, TRIUNE. Like all SPIRITS EMANATED from God, OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE LOVE OF GOD. The very first act which occurred in the BEGINNING, THE BIG BANG,  by which act the entire infinite existence, THEN IN PITCH DARKNESS, was enlightened. THEY WERE ONLY AN ENDLESS SPIRITS ALIVE by “THE WORD” Jesus, the Son of Man to be, ETERNAL LIFE , OF THE HOLY GHOST, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRITS, ENGRAFTED ETERNALLY AT ALL COSTS, IN THEIR HEARTS. NEVERTHELESS, THESE ENDLESS SPIRITS IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME, WERE UNAWARE OF THEIR EXISTENCE AND OF GOD! IN THE SAME WAY THE PRE-ADAMITES, SIMPLY BEASTS,  WERE. NOW IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEY WERE EMANATED FROM GOD,  GOD THE FATHER INTEGRATED WITH THESE SPIRITS, AND THEY BECAME ALIVE ALSO SPIRITUALLY IN THEIR MINDS AND BECAME AWARE OF ALL THINGS,   BY WHICH SPIRITS, KEEP IN MIND; LUMINOUS SPIRITS, LUCIFER WAS CREATED BY THE FATHER AS THE FIRST ANGEL. HIS JEWEL!

    Lucifer was created TRIUNE in the image of God, the first carrier of God in relation to the LIGHT/WISDOM. The first son of God, androgynous,  male and female! THE PRIMORDIAL LIGHT; CREATED WITH A SPIRITUAL LUMINOUS BODY, MANIFESTED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME ON THIS PLANET AND IN THE ENTIRE COSMOS, BY JESUS ON MOUNT TABOR, HIDDEN FOR LUCIFER AND IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS DURING, FOR US, AN ENDLESS  PROBATION PERIOD, FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FREE WILL, AND THEIR LOYALTY TO THE MYSTERIOUS INVISIBLE GOD BY THEIR WORK IN HARMONY WITH GOD IN THE CREATION OF THE COSMOS.

    NOW GOING BACK TO COLOSSIANS 1:1, LUCIFER, ON HIS CREATION UNAWARE OF, FOR THE SAKE OF HIS FREE WILL AND LOYALTY TO GOD, PHYSICALLY SPEAKING WAS EMBODIED IN

    THE IMAGE of the invisible God,

    THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE  PRECISELY 

    JESUS, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN TO BE.

    NOT VISIBLY BY THE SPIRITUAL REALMS DURING THE PROBATION PERIOD.

    Hinted out by John the Baptist, MICHAEL, SENT BY THE FATHER, in

    John1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man who is

    PREFERRED BEFORE ME: FOR HE WAS BEFORE ME.

    31And I knew him not:

    but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

     33And I knew him not:

    but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    NOW let’s go back to Colossians:

    16 For in him were all things created (Lucifer THE FIRST EVER, THE BEGINNING,) in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

    Thus Jesus, as a spirit, “THE WORD” spoken of God, ETERNAL LIFE, LIGHT/WISDOM,  THE ONLY SOURCE OF COMMUNICATION WITH GOD, AND THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES, UNLESS THEY ARE ERADICATED TOTALLY BY GOD, BY THE FIRST INTENTION OF SIN IN THEIR HEART, WHERE “THE WORD” ABIDES ETERNALLY, WHO IS BEFORE ALL, WITH RESPECT TO COLOSSIANS, WAS HIDDEN, buried, like a treasure in a field, ENGRAFTED in the heart of Lucifer, and eventually in all creatures’ HEARTS, through him in relation to

    LIGHT/WISDOM. HENCE HUMANITY, LUCIFER’S ORIGINAL SPIRIT REMNANTS. The old man spirit! Well hinted out by Jesus in

    Matthew 5:14  You are THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD…..

    James 1:21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive

    THE ENGRAFTED WORD, which is able to save your souls.

    ORIGINALLY IN ALL SPIRITS EMANATED FROM GOD IN THE BEGINNING.

    Thus, Jesus is both THE FIRSTBORN of every creature, NOT CREATED, HIDDEN IN LUCIFER and also THE PHYSICAL IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. OBVIOUS UNKNOWN FOR LUCIFER ON HIS CREATION.

    LUCIFER and JESUS were LIKE BROTHERS, Hinted out by Jesus in

    the PRODIGAL SON STORY, BUT WITH

    ONE HEART. A DIVINE/CREATURE HEART, IT’S THE SAME AS WE ARE:

    ONE HEART SHARED BETWEEN OUR SOUL, GOD’S, AND OUR BODY, SATAN’S ON EVE’S SIN!

    SEPARATED ONLY ON THE CROSS ON THE SPLITTING OF JESUS’HEART.

    Song of Solomon 8:1 Who shall give thee to me for my brother, sucking the breasts of my mother, that I may find thee without, and kiss thee,

    and now no man may despise me?

    IN THE BEGINNING (LUCIFER) WAS (HIDDEN)THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. ( BOTH CREATED IN LUCIFER, AND NOT IN HIMSELF, GOD) AND THE WORD WAS GOD, (BOTH HIDDEN IN LUCIFER AND IN THE WORD, JESUS 

    THE ONLY HOUSE OF GOD)

    MORE BLAH, BLAH  TO COME

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #890508
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    You: To all…….Scripture say , sin entered in this world by “MAN” , and by “a MAN”   it was “atoned  for.”  No where does it say , by a being “morphed” into a human body was our sins atoned for.

    Scripture clearly says:

    Psalm 49: 7No brother can redeem,

    nor shall man redeem:

    he shall not give to God his ransom,

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #890509
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel: 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: 

    THE ABOVE Mr. Mike is the clearest evidence that 

    JESUS POSSESSES
    A SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!
    you: Then your evidence is not clear at all – especially if you would have quoted the rest of the statement.

    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Jesus Christ, 

    ME: WATCH IT Mike, HERE COMES MORE BLAH, BLAH, and BLAH, FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH!

    NO, Mike I left it for you SO YOU COMMIT YOURSELF AND DECLARE  THAT JESUS IS  RIGHT NOW, BETWEEN 

    GOD and MEN!

    THUS YOU SIMPLY ARE DECLARING THAT JESUS IS SOMEONE UNIQUE WHO IS

    GOD FROM ONE SIDE, and, MAN FROM THE OTHER SIDE,  IN ORDER, TO UNITE 

    HUMANITY WITH GOD! IN

    HIMSELF!

    2Corinthians 5:19For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.

    LOOKING AT JESUS YOU DON’T JUST SEE 

    GOD or MAN, BUT BOTH!!!

    GODMAN,  A MEDIATOR!

    NOW IN ORDER FOR JESUS TO BE GODMAN, HE MUST POSSESS ALL THAT

    GOD POSSESSES AND ALL

    THAT MAN POSSESSES!! Mr. Mike! WELL CLEAR IN

    John17:10  And all my things (HUMAN’S, IN THE SON OF MAN) are thine, ( GOD’S IN THE HOLY GHOST, IN JESUS’ SOUL, THE SON OF GOD) and

    thine (GOD’S IN THE HOLY GHOST, IN JSUS’ SOUL) are mine; (THE SON OF MAN)

    and I am glorified in them! 

    GODMAN!

    WHY and HOW Mr. Mike? Simple:

    AS BOTH THE HOLY GHOST, SPIRIT, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, and

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE 

    INTEGRATED, ON THE CROSS!

    AND THEY ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH IN 

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!  MEDIATOR BETWEEN

    GOD and MEN!

    ASSERTED IN

    John 13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man ( “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE) 

    glorified, (IN SPIRITUAL FLESH)

    and God (SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE)

     is glorified in him.( IN THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH)

    32If God (IN THE HOLY GHOST) be glorified in him, (IN THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH)

    God (SPIRIT, IN THE HOLY GHOST) also will glorify him (THE SON OF MAN IN FLESH) in himself; ( AND BECOMES GOD IN SPIRITUAL FLESH,)

    JESUS CHRIST!

    GODMAN!
    and immediately will he glorify him.(ON HIS

    DEATH)

    Can you see it now?  Mr. Mike???

    YOU: The man who died for us is now the mediator between us and God. This tells us that he was a man WHEN he died for us… not that he’s still a man.

    ME: definitely not! He is

    both God and man

    GODMAN!!!

    Acts 2:22… Fellow Israelites, listen to this:

    Jesus of Nazareth was

    a man accredited by God

    to you by miracles,

    wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    ME: OK, Mike,  GOT IT? NOT JUST A MAN BUT

    A MAN ACCREDITED BY GOD! 

    NOW ADAM AND ALL HIS OFFSPRING WERE REJECTED BY GOD! CONSEQUENTLY

    NO MORTAL MAN OF EARTH COULD BE ACCREDITED BY GOD! READ:

    Psalm 49: 7No brother can redeem,
    nor shall man redeem:
    he shall not give to God his ransom,

    You: Does the fact that Peter says Jesus WAS a man mean that Jesus is STILL a man? 

    Of course not. 

    ME: AT LAST, YOU ADMITTED IT! NOW WHAT YOU HAVE TO ADMIT IS 

    WHAT JESUS NOW IS!

    You: But while I have you here, notice that the scripture you posted clearly identifies “the man who gave himself as a ransom” as someone OTHER THAN “God”. 

    ME: YES DEFINITELY!!! 

    HE IS GOD IN FLESH IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH IN JESUS!

    ASSERTED AGAIN BY YOU: THOUGH YOU ARE TOTALLY BLIND! READ:

      You: And in the verse I quoted, you have the direct answer to one of the questions I’ve been asking you for a month. 

    The answer is YES,

    God is the one who did the miracles THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.

    ME: GOD IS THE ONE WHO DIED THROUGH HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS!

    AND BECAME OUR SAVIOUR! IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!

    NO GOD OUR SAVIOUR, NO JESUS OUR SAVIOUR,

    NO JESUS OUR SAVIOUR NO GOD OUR SAVIOUR!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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