John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #890511
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You said:

    Right.

    Psalm 2:7

    NET… The king says, “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me: ‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!’”

    NIV…  I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

    NLT…  The king proclaims the LORD’s decree: “The LORD said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father.”

    At the exact moment that God begat His first child, God became a father.

    Mike, did you realize that the day that was said is told us in the NT? Do you know when?

    #890512
    gadam123
    Participant

    Mike: Right.

    Psalm 2:7

    NET… The king says, “I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me: ‘You are my son! This very day I have become your father!’”

    NIV…  I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

    NLT…  The king proclaims the LORD’s decree: “The LORD said to me, ‘You are my son. Today I have become your Father.”

    At the exact moment that God begat His first child, God became a father.

    LU: Mike, did you realize that the day that was said is told us in the NT? Do you know when?

    Hi Sis Kathi, it’s a good question. In fact Psalm 2 about the Coronation of Jewish King (David) and day was the day of his Coronation. Please go through this….

    Psalms 2:7
    The concept of physical sonship with God the Father is not found in biblical theology or in first century Judaism. What is found is the biblical concept of the covenantal relationship whereby Israel or an individual within that nation is metaphorically adopted as God’s son. One does not need to undergo a supernatural conception to be declared “son of God” in a Jewish context. In the Christian search for biblical proof of the belief in Jesus as the “Son of God,” proof has often been found where none exists by violating the integrity of the plain meaning of scriptural passages.

    Prominent among these is Psalms 2:7, wherein it is stated: “The Lord said to me: ‘You are My son, this day I have begotten you.’” An examination of the context will show that this verse refers to the metaphoric father-and-son relationship between God and David. The king is not divine by nature, rather he is elected to a special relationship with God (metaphorically a father-son relationship; cf. Psalms 89:36). A similar relationship later existed between God and Solomon (2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 22:10, 28:6). This special relationship is not to be taken in a literal sense. We can only speak of God metaphorically, as for example, “mouth of God” (2 Chronicles 35:22), “the eye of the Lord” (Psalms 33:18), “the ears of God” (2 Samuel 22:7), and the like. It is in a similar metaphorical sense that the verse speaks of the son of God, or the sons of God, for whoever carries out the will of God is called “son,” as the son carries out the will of the father. It is for this reason that the text says, “You are My son, this day have I begotten you” (Psalms 2:7), and it states in similar fashion, “Israel is My son, My first born” (Exodus 4:22). To be singled out for God’s special favor as an individual or as a whole people is called, in the Scriptures, “to beget” (Deuteronomy 32:18). David, on his ascension to the throne, was declared to be begotten of God.

    The title of son is given to all those who enjoy a special relationship with God (Exodus 4:22, Hosea 2:1). David becomes the son of God ex officio. Similar hyperbolic language is found in Psalm 110, a psalm that portrays the Davidic king enthroned at the right hand of God, reigning in Zion as God’s earthly representative. In all of these cases, the language of poetic hyperbole should not be construed to mean that the king (messiah) is regarded as a divine being. Christians may argue that the references to sonship are typologies pointing to the existence of an actual divine sonship embodied in Jesus. But this argument is obviously based on purely subjective reasoning, with no facts from the Jewish Scriptures to give it support. Psalms 2:7 could not at all refer to Jesus. The verse says: “The Lord said to me: ‘You are My son.’” Why would God have to inform Jesus, a fellow member of the Trinity, of the exact nature of their relationship? The verse then continues: “this day I have begotten you.” If Jesus is God, how can he be begotten? Are we to presume that this statement was made on the day of Jesus’ incarnate conception, and that God spoke to the fertilized egg? Moreover, should we presume that this fertilized egg had the ability to answer God, as is implied in verse 8? There, God states: “Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for your possession.”

    Would Jesus, if he was a member of the Trinity, with all its implications, have to make this request of God? Did Jesus have to ask for these or any other possessions? If he were God, the heavens and the earth and all that they contain are already his possessions. Furthermore, if Jesus had the ability to understand God’s statement on the very day of his conception, it would seem incongruous for the New Testament to describe him as “increasing in wisdom and in physical growth with both God and men” (Luke 2:52). This offer by God would have had no meaning since Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45 say Jesus came to serve, not to be served. Did God make an empty offer? If the statement, “This day I have begotten you” was made to Jesus at a date later than the day of his conception, and is thus figurative in meaning, he is then not distinguished from all the others who are in the “sonship of God.”

    According to the New Testament accounts, Jesus certainly did not have an earthly kingdom during his lifetime. If this is supposed to occur during a second coming, then we come to a further problem. It is alleged that at that time Jesus would be coming back not in an earthly state, but exalted and as God. That being the case, he would not have to ask for either “inheritance” or “possession.” Actually, verse 7 does not mean that David was to inherit literally “the ends of the earth.” It is an obvious hyperbole, the true meaning of which is, a large expanse of territory, and can only apply to a human being that, unlike God, or allegedly Jesus, does not possess all of creation. Similar hyperboles can be found in the Scriptures, for example, “There was no end to his treasures … and there was no end to his chariots” (Isaiah 2:7), and David, who never left the vicinity of the Land of Israel, says: “From the end of the earth I will call you” (Psalms 61:3). A related statement parallel to that of Psalms 2:7 is found in Psalms 89:28: “I will also appoint him firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.” Since the latter verse clearly refers to the actual person of David, and not to any typological messiah, as is evident from verses 4, 21, 27, 36, and 37, there is good reason to assume that Psalms 2:7 refers to King David. There is no doubt that when the true Messiah comes he will rule the nations, as can be seen from Isaiah 11, and we do not have to seek out proof where none exists. Psalm 2 is a historical psalm and in its plain meaning does not speak about the messianic age. Nevertheless, there are Jewish sources which give this psalm a messianic context, especially midrashic literature.

    The messianic interpretation of Psalm 2 occurs in the late Midrash Tehillim, but there “sonship” is metaphorical, “as when a master says to his slave, ‘you are my son’” (Psalms 2:7). It is simply an expression of endearment….(taken from the article by Gerald Sigal)

    #890519
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Performing miracles and healing will not make any one as Messiah who will be a warrior King as promised.

    Let me ask again…  Since Jesus is recorded as SAYING he is the Messiah prophesied about in the OT, and since Jesus was a man through whom God did miracles and healings, then we either have a case of God performing miracles through a LIAR – or a case of God never performing miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which is it?

    #890520
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: Yes there is no requirement for such non-human Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible.

    Then you will refrain from using the “non-human alien” argument in the future, correct?  Good.  One less thing to deal with.

    Adam:  God is not a human as per the Hebrew Bible and an immortal can not become a mortal.

    This is from the OT…

    Psalm 82:1, 6-7…  God presides in the assembly of gods; among the gods He renders judgement…

    “I have called you gods; you are all sons of the Most High.  But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”

    This is Yahweh telling other gods (His spirit sons) that, although He created them immortal, they will die for their sins.  There is another such account in the Book of Enoch, where the gods taught humans sorcery and all kinds of other things God didn’t want them to know, and some of them mated with human women.  God told those sinners that He made it so man would have children because they are not immortal, but He did not intend for them to have children because they were created immortal.  And God’s judgement on them for mating with human women was that they would be destroyed in the final judgement day (after many years of confinement buried deep inside the earth).

    So there are two accounts of immortals becoming mortal.

     

    #890521
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    You don’t understand that Paul [in Colossians who says: “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” ]
    means that Christ by his divine power sustains all things in the universe. It is he who governs the laws of the universe created by his hand
    “and upholding all things BY the word of HIS power,” (Hebrews 1: 3)

    Maybe I don’t “understand” it because the scriptural words don’t actually say what you say… especially the part about Jesus governing the laws of the “universe” that was “created by his hand”.

    First of all, there is no “universe”.  Read Gen 1 to understand the world God created for us.  Secondly, Jesus himself tells us that it was God (not him) who created that world for us.

    Why can’t you understand the Joseph/Pharaoh comparison?  Pharaoh GAVE Joseph so much control over Egypt that in Joseph, the entire Egyptian nation consisted, and Joseph upheld the entire nation of Egypt by the word of his power.

    It is exactly the same situation – except that Joseph was only PLACED over Egypt, while Jesus was PLACED over the entirety of God’s creation (except for God Himself, obviously… 1 Cor 15:27).

    And just like Joseph wasn’t Pharaoh (or even equal to him), Jesus isn’t God (or even equal to Him).

    In both cases, the one with ultimate power delegated a LOT of that power to one of his servants.  But the servant didn’t become the master, or even equal to the master in either case.

    In case you ever become interested in promoting what the Bible actually teaches, here is the world God told us He made…

    Ancient-Hebrew-view-of-universe

     

    #890522
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  No where does [scripture] say , by a being “morphed” into a human body was our sins atoned for.

    Gene, you’ve been shown here a thousand times that this statement is 100% inaccurate.  We all understand that you don’t want to accept everything the scriptures teach about Jesus – but your claim that the scriptures don’t teach those things is blatantly untrue.

    John 6:35-51…  Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life… I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”

    At this the Jews…said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?

    Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    Gene, why can’t you understand that passage as it is written – without adding your own twists into it?  Jesus clearly claimed that he came down from heaven.  The Jews understood that this is what he was claiming – and even asked, “How can Jesus say he came down from heaven?”  Then Jesus reiterated his own claim and insisted that he did in fact come down from heaven.

    Gene, why don’t you believe your Lord when he tells you point blank that he came down from heaven?

    #890523
    gadam123
    Participant

    Let me ask again…  Since Jesus is recorded as SAYING he is the Messiah prophesied about in the OT, and since Jesus was a man through whom God did miracles and healings, then we either have a case of God performing miracles through a LIAR – or a case of God never performing miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which is it?

    Hi Mike, thanks again for your replies to my posts. Again you are struck at Jesus’ miracles to prove him as Jewish Messiah. I have already stated in my post that miracles and healings can not make anyone King Messiah. I do not make anyone a liar as you are so much interested in that word. Please prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah with the requirements as specified in Hebrew Bible and there ends the matter.

    #890524
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  Lucifer was the first creature ever created in the image of God…

    Jesus was the first creature ever created in the image of God.

    Prov 8:22…  Yahweh created me as the first of His works…

    Psalm 2:7… You are my son.  This very day I have brought you forth into existence…

    Micah 5:2… His origin is from days of old, ancient times…

    Col 1:15…  He is the firstborn of every creature…

    Rev 3:14… I am the beginning of the creation by God…

    We aren’t told who the second creation was – which is a bummer.  It’d be so cool to have a “genealogy” of God’s spirit sons like we have of Adam’s offspring.

    #890525
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……….Jesus was not telling them they were Gods ,   He meant that in a “possessive” sense. They and we are God’s  children  his son’s and daughters ,  and therefore we all “BELONG”, to him.  Otherwise that would make Jesus a liar, when he said this.

    “this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD.”..

    So you either believe what Jesus said or not , not to even mention how many times God himself said that we are to have no other God,  besides him.  All the rest are “false God’s” to us that are true believers.

    While anything can be a God to a person,  “but unto “us” (true believers) there is “BUT” “ONE” God and one mediator between men and God, the “MAN” Jesus , the Anointed “MAN” of God.

    Mike You  either believe it or not, up to you.

    peace ad love to you and yours ………….gene

    #890526
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: Mike I left it for you SO YOU COMMIT YOURSELF AND DECLARE  THAT JESUS IS  RIGHT NOW, BETWEEN GOD and MEN!

    Yes… Jesus is the mediator BETWEEN God and mankind.

    Carmel:  THUS YOU SIMPLY ARE DECLARING THAT JESUS IS SOMEONE UNIQUE WHO IS GOD FROM ONE SIDE, and, MAN FROM THE OTHER SIDE…

    Actually, I’m declaring that Jesus is neither “God”, nor “mankind”.  He is the mediator BETWEEN those two parties.  No mediator can BE one of the parties that he mediates BETWEEN.

    #890527
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam:  God is not a human as per the Hebrew Bible and an immortal can not become a mortal.

    Mike: This is from the OT…

    Psalm 82:1, 6-7…  God presides in the assembly of gods; among the gods He renders judgement…

    “I have called you gods; you are all sons of the Most High.  But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”

    This is Yahweh telling other gods (His spirit sons) that, although He created them immortal, they will die for their sins.  There is another such account in the Book of Enoch, where the gods taught humans sorcery and all kinds of other things God didn’t want them to know, and some of them mated with human women.  God told those sinners that He made it so man would have children because they are not immortal, but He did not intend for them to have children because they were created immortal.  And God’s judgement on them for mating with human women was that they would be destroyed in the final judgement day (after many years of confinement buried deep inside the earth).

    So there are two accounts of immortals becoming mortal.

    Hi Mike, the above of your arguments are on the immortality vs mortality. I ask you what is an immortality? Please read the verse I am quoting from the NT, 1 Tim 6:

    16 It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

    Ps 82 talks about Elohim (gods), again this verse is quoted by the writer of the Fourth Gospel, John 10:

    34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled—

    Ps 82:1 “He judges among the gods: God’s standing in the midst of these mighty ones is to bring judgment among them”.

    The word gods here is Elohim, the plural for the generic word for god in Hebrew. The idea of God judging gods has led to several suggestions regarding the identity of these elohim, these gods.

    · Elohim is often used to describe the true God, Yahweh. It is in the plural to describe both the majesty of His person, and to be a hint of the triune nature of God, being One God in Three Persons.

    · Elohim is sometimes used as the plural of pagan deities, the false gods of the nations.

    · Elohim is sometimes used in reference to angelic beings.

    · Elohim is here best taken as a reference to human judges, who stand in the place of God in their ability to determine the fate of others.

    i. “Gathered around Him is an assembly of judges who are called elohim, because they are His delegates; they administer His will; they are His executive agents.” (Morgan)

    ii. “The judges and magistrates are compared in this psalm to God, because they exercise something of His power in the right ordering of human society.” (Meyer)

    iii. Martin Luther “pointed out that Psalm 82:1, 6 both establishes and limits the authority of princes. It establishes it, because it is God who appoints the authorities; it is he who calls them ‘gods.’ It limits their authority because they are accountable to him, as the psalm shows.” (Boice)

    iv. “Earthly judicatories are the appointment of God. All magistrates act in his name, and by virtue of his commission. He is invisibly present at their assemblies, and superintends their proceedings. He receives appeals from their wrongful decisions; he will one day re-hear all causes at his own tribunal, and reverse every iniquitous sentence, before the great congregation of men and angels.” (Horne)

    v. “Our Lord’s reference to Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34-38 is, by the present writer, accepted as authoritatively settling both the meaning and the ground of the remarkable name of ‘gods’ for human judges.” (Maclaren)

    c. How long will you judge unjustly? As God calls together this assembly of judges, He did not do it to compliment them or pay them honor. He did it to confront them for judging unjustly and for showing partiality to the wicked. This confrontation shows that God Himself is the Judge at the ultimate Supreme Court.

    And there is no proof that God created these gods (or angels) which you claim as immortals.

    #890528
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: But while I have you here, notice that the scripture you posted clearly identifies “the man who gave himself as a ransom” as someone OTHER THAN “God”. 

    Carmel: YES DEFINITELY!!! 

    So you agree that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God?  Great.

    #890529
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Acts 2:22… Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    And in the verse I quoted, you have the direct answer to one of the questions I’ve been asking you for a month. The answer is YES, God is the one who did the miracles THROUGH His holy servant Jesus.

    Carmel:  GOD IS THE ONE WHO DIED THROUGH HIS HOLY SERVANT JESUS!

    I quote scripture that verifies what I say as truth.  You make completely irrational claims that can’t be found in any scripture.

    So no, God didn’t die at any time.  But yes, God is the one who did the miracles through His holy servant Jesus.  God also did miracles through other servants like Moses and Elijah.  And God can do even greater miracles through any of us.

    #890530
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Mike, did you realize that the day that was said is told us in the NT? Do you know when?

    I realize that the statement is repeated in the NT after Jesus’ baptism.  But I’m not aware of the NT telling us when the statement was originally uttered.  I do remember Kangaroo Jack once trying to use Acts 13:33 to make an argument, but it doesn’t say what he claimed it did.  Is that the verse you’re talking about?

    #890531
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..All things came from heaven, that exists on this earth even us.  Jesus was even set from Heaven, and was the one who came to us from God, that was his  destiny before he ever existed, even we are too. Is that not where the throng of God is.  Yes Jesus was the bread of Life “sent”  from heaven.  Jesus said even his disciples  were from above, just like he was, sayin “They were not of this world” ,   That simply means they were in the plan and purpose of God the Father , who is above,  before the world ever existed, we all were in his plan, before  this world ever existed.

    You people never stop to Make Jesus appear different then we are, that’s exactly what Satan want’s you to do,   That is why he created these “DOCTRINES” of “SEPARATION” , IN  THE CHURCH ,   in the first place. 

    peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #890532
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  We can only speak of God metaphorically, as for example, “mouth of God” (2 Chronicles 35:22), “the eye of the Lord” (Psalms 33:18), “the ears of God” (2 Samuel 22:7), and the like. It is in a similar metaphorical sense that the verse speaks of the son of God…

    The first argument that your source makes is that it is a metaphorical sonship – like God having a mouth, eyes or ears are metaphorical.  But there is nothing in scripture that tells us that God doesn’t have a literal mouth, eyes or ears, so this argument is based solely on your source’s interpretation that these features of God are metaphorical.  And even if those features of God were metaphorical, it wouldn’t follow that this particular sonship in Psalm 2:7 must also be metaphorical.  Likewise, the fact that other sonships in the OT are metaphorical (as is attested by the context itself), it wouldn’t necessarily follow that the sonship in Psalm 2:7 must also be metaphorical.  This argument fails.

    The second argument your source makes is against the unscriptural idea that God is a Triune Godhead.  Those arguments are sound, but are not applicable to Christians who accept Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – not God Himself.

    In other words, your source did nothing to refute my own belief that Ps 2:7 is Jesus telling how God brought him forth as the first of His works, making Jesus’ sonship much more literal than, say, David’s or the nation of Israel’s.

    #890533
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Again you are struck at Jesus’ miracles to prove him as Jewish Messiah. I have already stated in my post that miracles and healings can not make anyone King Messiah. I do not make anyone a liar as you are so much interested in that word.

    There are only 3 possibilities, Adam…

    1.  Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.

    2.  Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.

    3.  God never did miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which of those 3 do you believe?

     

    Adam: Please prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah with the requirements as specified in Hebrew Bible and there ends the matter.

    Please first prove that God actually exists via the Hebrew Bible. 😉

    #890534
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike……….Jesus was not telling them they were Gods ,   He meant that in a “possessive” sense.

    Are you talking about Psalm 82?  If so, that was Yahweh (not Jesus) assembling with a bunch of other gods (as He did in Job 1:6) and passing judgement of some of those gods for not attending to mankind the way He told them to.

    #890535
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Jesus named” the Word” BY John was GOD in The BIGINNING…

    Paul Wrote : he IS before all THINGS

    All THINGS IS all THINGS CREATED

    Jesus IS not a THING CREATED because HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS CREATED

    and by him all things consist.

     

    In Hebrews 1:3  Paul Wrote

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, ….

    Revelation 5:13

    And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.    

    Jesus is not among the creatures who give glory to God and to the Lamb, because HE IS not a creature…

     

     

    #890536
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    The statement “today I have begotten you” is not said after Jesus’ baptism. That was said on the resurrection day. Jesus was begotten from the dead and thus firstborn from the dead. Clearly though, the Father was Jesus’ father before the resurrection day.

    LU

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