John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,041 through 23,060 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872980
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: ADAM……I also believe that the biggest myth of all,  is thinking Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth.

    ME: Gene I don’t think whether Jesus pre-existed or not 

    I AM CONVINCED THAT HE PRE-EXISTED!

    NOT ONLY HIM BUT ALL HUMANS DID AS SPIRITS.

    YOU: Jesus never address himself as having an actual personal past relationship with God,

    Gene, you not only surprise me but disappoint me, as Jesus made it emphatically clear Himself that He had a past relationship with God! Read:

    John 17 :5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,

    with the glory which I had, before the world was,

    with thee.

    John3:12 If I have spoken to you earthly things, and you believe not;

    how will you believe,

    if I shall speak to you heavenly things? 

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS MADE IT CERTAIN THAT HE PRE-EXISTED AND KNOWS ALL ABOUT HEAVENLY THINGS, OBVIOUS A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. AGAIN ASSERTED HEREUNDER:

    13And no man hath ascended into heaven, ( NOT EVEN ELIAH, UNLESS ELIAH, IN A PARTICULAR WAY, IS ALSO JESUS EMBODIED IN ELIAH, PRE-EXISTED )

    but he that descended from heaven,

    ISN’T IT ENOUGH THE ABOVE CONFIRMATION THAT JESUS PRE-EXISTED IN HEAVEN WITH A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. READ:

    the Son of man who is in heaven. 

    GENE IN THE ABOVE JESUS CONFIRMED THAT WHILE HE  WAS ON EARTH,

    HE WAS ALSO IN HEAVEN WITH A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. 

    John 14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 

    ETERNALLY!

    John 10:30I and the Father are one!

    ETERNALLY!

    Cont. 

    John3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son;

    that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH TO YOU THE ABOVE THAT JESUS HAD A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD?

    17For God sent not his Son into the world,

    to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him.

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH TO YOU THE ABOVE THAT JESUS HAD A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD?

    18He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19And this is the judgment:

    because the light ( FROM THE LIGHT, GOD)  is come into the world,

    and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

    WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH THAT JESUS, NOT ONLY HAD A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD BUT THE SAME SUBSTANCE AND ONENESS WITH GOD, WHO IS THE LIGHT! READ MORE TRUTH:

    John 12:44But Jesus cried, and said:

    He that believeth in ME, doth not believe in ME, but in him(GOD)that sent me. 

    45And he that seeth ME, seeth him (GOD)that sent me.

     46I have come as LIGHT (FROM LIGHT, GOD) into the world;

    that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness. 

    MORE TRUTH BY JESUS’ OWN WORDS:

    John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I am,

    Gene, AGAIN, JESUS ASSERTS HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD!

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which

    thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

    Gene, the above is IN THE  PRESENT PERFECT TENSE! The present perfect is used to communicate occurrences or experiences either completed or not completed in

    the past with relation to the present.

    THIS CONFIRMS THAT JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED HIS PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER!

    Gene, PLEASE NOT JUST READ SCRIPTURE, BUT 

    ACCEPTS IS CLEAR TRUTH OF

    JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE!

    YOU;  he  always used present tense language,  

    ME: NO Gene, JESUS USED A IN THE ABOVE,

    PRESENT PERFECT TENSE! 

     HE IS GOD,

    AND GOD IS ALWAYS PERFECT AND PRESENT!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872981
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Bible also says that Satan is theos…

    2 Cor 4:4… The god [THEOS] of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    Satan is also one of God’s sons…

    Job 1:6… Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    So if Satan is both theos and God’s son, then is Satan “from eternity” too? Is Satan “omnipotent” too?

    Well put Mike.

    #872982
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Adam: Yes he will not be an old man as you rightly pointed out but he will certainly be a warrior prince. It will be an end time Messianic kingdom where the Israelites will live there forever with their children and grandchildren and David will be their prince forever. I think this is possible with resurrection beliefs in the Hebrew religion. It may even be possible that the original David himself will be the Prince as mentioned in Ezek 37:25 as there will be resurrection of the dead in future.

    Adam, God is eternal and men always underestimate him. When God makes a plan, it is not as limited as you imagine. Look at the universe.

    Men once thought the earth was flat and the stars were lights in a solid dome. Then we realised we were one planet in a solar system with other planets. Then our star turned out to be one of many with the stars being other suns and likely having their own system of worlds. Then we found out that one of the stars we can see with the naked eye was another whole galaxy like ours and what we use to call the universe turned out to be just one galaxy among countless others. Today, we wonder if there are other universes or galaxies beyond the horizon of what we can see.

    In one of these worlds, a race called humans fell into sin. The world falls and innocent children are born into a sinful world. Does God leave it at that and say, ‘too bad’? No, he is love and works out a plan to bring those in that world back to perfection. In fact he foresaw this and already had the plan worked out before the universe was even created. Of course, with free will, it is a no-brainer that a world would eventually choose sin and its lessons learned eventually by all other sons of God.

    So this eternal God sends prophets to reveal his plan. He starts with prophecies to men and a law that will not only help men to live longer, but will have the required intent of revealing our own sin. Otherwise we would just think it normal with nothing to compare our lowly existence to.

    Then this eternal God sends his firstborn, the most precious Son to die as the Lamb of God. Do we have understanding of what this means. Yes, because of the sacrificial system in the Old Testament was there to give us that understanding. Sin brings death, so death satisfies teh fruit of sin.

    Once the saviour’s work is complete, God then allows time for men to be saved through the gospel / church age. A message that instantly saves or condemns the hearers rather than being weighed in the balance as it was beforehand and still is for those who have not heard the greater light.

    Can you not see that God has been holding our hand and taking us through his plan from day one. Only the blind cannot see and people are blind because they choose to be.

    Adam, your vision for God is stuck at stage 1 and I wonder if you lived back then if you would reject that stage. The plan has progressed much since then of course and you have been left behind my friend. You underestimate the work and will of God. He doesn’t do things in half measures. The eternal God goes above and beyond our expectations.

    But as it is written: “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.”

    I myself have had a taste of the Kingdom. It is beyond any person’s wildest dreams. It would be  a shame if you missed out on such a great and generous gift.

    #872984
    Lightenup
    Participant

    God is eternal, was God always a father?

    If so, then God always had a son.

    If not, then is it remotely possible that God asexually reproduced?

    If God asexually reproduced, is it possible that God took from Himself essence that always was in Himself and then gave it to become another one just like Himself?

    If so, then the essence in God is the same in age as the essence in His Son.

    Seems reasonable.

    If the two are same in essence, then what one is, the other is likewise regarding the type of being.

    If one is God in type, the other is God in type. The only difference is one fathered the other.

    So, there you have two persons who are both God in type and one is the father of the other who eventually was His first and only to be begotten. Before the Son was the first to be begotten, He was the one yet to be begotten.

    That answers how the Son existed before He became the first, the first to be begotten.

    #872985
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If so, then the essence in God is the same in age as the essence in His Son.

    See it is true. The Trinity / Binity treat God as a substance or essense.

    But God is a person / identity.

    As I said earlier, “God has divine nature, but many teach divine nature has God” and you have proved my point.

    The Father is God.

    The Son is a son of God.

    The Spirit is the Spirit of God.

    Because you put doctrines ahead of scripture, you will remain confused and always wrestling with contradictions.

    #872986
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If so, then the essence in God is the same in age as the essence in His Son.

    Further, if we are born from above and participate in divine nature, then we too are eternal and as old ass God?

    See how easy it is to debunk false teaching?

    #872987
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Does God have essence or IS God essence?  Can you answer that?

    Or maybe you think that God does not have essence. It would be impossible for the Son to be the exact representation of the Father’s essence if He did not have any essence?

    Undebunked.

     

    #872989
    gadam123
    Participant

    Where can I read about resurrection in the OT?

    Hi Mike, thanks for your reply to my post. The concept of (individual) resurrection was not developed in the Torah but it is visible in the Tanakh especially in the later books like Daniel. Here are few indirect and direct verses on resurrection from the Hebrew Bible;

    Job 19:

    25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
    and that at the last he will stand upon the earth;
    26 and after my skin has been thus destroyed,
    then in my flesh I shall see God,

    Isaiah 26:19

    Your dead shall live, their corpses[a] shall rise.
    O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
    For your dew is a radiant dew,
    and the earth will give birth to those long dead

    Daniel 12:2

    Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth[a] shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    National resurrection of Israel but it may be meant for future revival of its kingdom

    Ezekiel 37:

    9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath:[c] Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath,[d] and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.” 10 I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood on their feet, a vast multitude.

    13 And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and bring you up from your graves, O my people. 14 I will put my spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you on your own soil; then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken and will act, says the Lord.”

     

    #872990
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Another point to consider ,   Was Jesus dealing with the salvation of Carmel nation , or with eternal salvation of all human beings? ,  the Salvation Of Jesus was for eternal life,  the Jew’s salvation looks to their physical salvation as a nation. Big difference in what kind of salvation we’re talking about, The Jews rejected their eternal salvation, when they rejected God the Fathers sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus Christ,  but some did accept it and even to this day some are,  but the rest will have their kingdom  restores to them and will have to continue their sacrifices for their sins as before. Because they missed out on their “eternal” salvation, God offered them,  please don’t miss out on that salvation brother.  Remember all the prophets God sent to them, and how they mistreated them and did not believe them,  Just as they did  not believe in Jesus either and even murdered him.  Be careful and not miss out on your calling brother.

    Your confusing two different events,  one physical,  and the other Spiritual,  which the Physically minded  have no part of.

    Hi brother Gene, I could not follow what you are talking about in the above post of yours. What is Eternal salvation? Is it mentioned in the Bible?

    I think you are relying on the texts of the NT written by the Hellenistic non-eye witness authors. Most of this material is polemic in nature towards the Jews of their time. Please don’t mistake me as this is clearly  visible in the most of the texts of the NT.

    The concept of heaven, hell and eternal life are all developed ideas in the NT. The Hebrew Bible mostly  talks about the present life than the life after death. The rewards and punishments are for this life than for the so called future life after death. Even the so called New Heaven and New Earth is for this world only and not  for any mythical eternal life. Please read Isaiah 65:

    17 For I am about to create new heavens
    and a new earth;
    the former things shall not be remembered
    or come to mind.
    18 But be glad and rejoice forever
    in what I am creating;
    for I am about to create Jerusalem as a joy,
    and its people as a delight.
    19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
    and delight in my people;
    no more shall the sound of weeping be heard in it,
    or the cry of distress.
    20 No more shall there be in it
        an infant that lives but a few days,
        or an old person who does not live out a lifetime;
    for one who dies at a hundred years will be considered a youth,
        and one who falls short of a hundred will be considered accursed.
    21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
    they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
    22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
    they shall not plant and another eat;
    for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
        and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
    23 They shall not labor in vain,
    or bear children for calamity;[e]
    for they shall be offspring blessed by the Lord—
    and their descendants as well.
    24 Before they call I will answer,
    while they are yet speaking I will hear.
    25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
    the lion shall eat straw like the ox;
    but the serpent—its food shall be dust!
    They shall not hurt or destroy
    on all my holy mountain,
    says the Lord.

    So where does these Christian concepts of the so called mythical eternal life or eternal salvation stand? These strange ideas of the NT writers no where visible in the Hebrew Bible.

    Please read the NT with reference to its primary source the Hebrew Bible. You will find the deviations.

    #872992
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam, your vision for God is stuck at stage 1 and I wonder if you lived back then if you would reject that stage. The plan has progressed much since then of course and you have been left behind my friend. You underestimate the work and will of God. He doesn’t do things in half measures. The eternal God goes above and beyond our expectations.

    Hi Proclaimer, thank you so much for your repeated attempts to convince me on the so called new revelations of the NT writers. I may be struck at stage 1 as per your assessment. But I tell you that I had already gone through all those so called Christian phases of born again, filled with Spirt, following the table manners etc. I do still believe that the these new revelations are true and there will be eternal life for the souls.

    I am sorry to say that now I am struck at investigating these new revelations with reference to their original source the Hebrew scriptures. I find lot of holes in those new revelations. The NT tried to justify its claims on Messiahship of Jesus and its religion purely on the Hebrew scriptures by stating “according to scriptures”. So I am more interested to find this truth behind this statement. This is the reason why I bring lot of critical arguments on this Forum when compared to others.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    #872993
    Berean
    Participant

    The Bible also says that Satan is theos…

    Mike

    Yes but Stan does not have IN HIM THE ETERNAL POWER TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE, HE IS A DEPENDENT CREATURE ON GOD FOR HIS SURVIVAL.

    IN THE BIGINNING, CHRIST HIM WAS GOD OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE OF GOD THE FATHER, AND IN HIMSELF WAS THE ETERNAL POWER THAT ALLOWS HIM TO CREATE AND SUSTAIN THE UNIVERSE …

    HEBREWS 1  ABOUT JESUS
    [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1 ABOUT JESUS
    …. all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. 

    Amen!

    #872994
    Berean
    Participant

    HI LU

    Does God have essence or IS God essence?  Can you answer that?

    Or maybe you think that God does not have essence. It would be impossible for the Son to be the exact representation of the Father’s essence if He did not have any essence?

    Undebunked.

     

     

    AMEN LU

    HEBREWS 1: 3 AFFIRMS THIS.

    God bless

     

    #872995
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    See it is true. The Trinity / Binity treat God as a substance or essense.

    But God is a person / identity. 

     

    Me

    Precisely, because God is a person, HE HAS A SUBSTANCE THAT IS OWN TO HIM …
    AND THE SON IS THE PERFECT REFLECTION OF THE PERSON OF THE FATHER ACCORDING TO HEBREWS 1: 3

    #872996
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Eve is adam / man (mankind).

    Eve is not The Adam.

    The Word was divine / theos.

    The Word is not The God / The Theos.

    Nature or essence is not the identity or person himself just as you are not your flesh.

    Your nature is flesh, God’s nature is divine. His essence is spirit.

    If divinity is the person of God, then yes the Word is God himself would be God and so are those who participate in that nature. But that is not how it works.

    Once again. Confusion over nature vs identity.

    The Trinity Doctrine exists because of this confusion.

    #872997
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…….Jesus said the words he was telling us were,  “SPIRIT” ,  Jesus said God “IS” a SPIRIT”  ,  that is his essence,  and GOD the father can by, that essence, be in us “all”    “That God may be in “all” and through “all”.   God’s essence is not limited to just three things, it’s “IN” EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE IN IT.  God himself  “IS” the “Tree of life”  to me. 

    JESUS said that God the father was “IN” HIM, he never said he was God the father that was “IN” him, now did he? Just like the food that goes “in” you, it’s not you, right? , but it nourishes you, so it is with the Spirit of God,  

    When we have received the Holy Spirit “IN” us,  We are Son of the living God , exactly as Jesus was baptized,  and received into him , that same Holy Spirit and became , born again,  as a son of God.  The exact same thing applies to us also.  Scripture tells us that “Jesus is the first born of “MANY” BROTHERS”.

    This whole idea of separating Jesus’ identity from the rest of mankind is, the work of Satan himself,  because he doesn’t want you to understand that you potential is “exactly” the same as Jesus was and is. “The DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY ”  is beyond a doubt the biggest “LIE” ever taught in Christianity 

    You really need to truly understand that LU,  and all the rest here also.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #872998
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……what I was trying to say is that there are two different ways people see things , one is from a Carmel or worldly ways , the other are from a Spiritual way,  the Carmel focuses on this world and how we physically do thing and see thing, the Spiritual sees thing differently.  The Jew’s messiah to them is only a carnal ruler that just delivers them  and reestablishes them. They see things through the eyes of carnal and self interests , which excludes most others but them,  but Jesus, the true Messiah of all of man kind , taught us to see thing through Spiritual eyes, be cause we see all people,  as God’s children,  and our lord Jesus as the Messiah of all people on this earth.
    They focus on self Deliverance , we focus on world deliverance , of all Nations and peoples ,  they will have their ‘physical” deliverance , but will not be ruling the world with the , True Messiah Jesus Christ, and  they who believe in Christ Jesus will rule with him, over them all, in the world ruling Kingdom of God.

    Adam,  there is a difference between the Old Testament and the NEW.  The old in most cases deals with the carnal thing , the new with the Spiritual things of God. IMO

    Peace and love to you and your Adam……….gene

    #872999
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Nature or essence is not the identity or person himself just as you are not your flesh.

    Proclaimer

    “Nature or essence is not the identity or person himself ”

    🤭

    👇

    … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON (hupostasis), …..

    5287

    upostasiV
    hupostasis
    hoop-bone’-heap-is

    from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a placing under (support), that is to say (in the figurative sense) concretely, ESSENCE, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively): – trust, confident, PERSON, SUBSTANCE.

    FROM this : ESSENCE = PERSON = SUBSTANCE

    YES ?

    #873000
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam,  there is a difference between the Old Testament and the NEW.  The old in most cases deals with the carnal thing , the new with the Spiritual things of God. IMO

    Hi brother Gene, thanks for your reply to my post. If you want to understand the true concepts on Hebrew Messiah you need to refer to the scriptures in Hebrew Bible only and not Christian NT as it is the secondary.

    There are no two different ideas like Carnal and spiritual Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible. Please understand my arguments here.

    #873001
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:

    Father

    Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

    Jesus / Word

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

    Men / Judges

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’

    Angels

    All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

    Earthquake

    And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great (elohim) trembling.

    God and the spirit sons of God are gods.  The Father is the most high God and the God of all those other gods… just like He is the God of us.

    Earthquakes are not called gods…

    1 Samuel 14:15

    NIV… Then panic struck the whole army—those in the camp and field, and those in the outposts and raiding parties—and the ground shook. It was a panic sent by God.

    NET Then fear overwhelmed those who were in the camp, those who were in the field, all the army in the garrison, and the raiding bands. They trembled and the ground shook. This fear was caused by God.*

    *Heb “and it was by the fear of God.” The translation understands this to mean that God was the source or cause of the fear experienced by the Philistines. This seems to be the most straightforward reading of the sentence.

    Men are not considered or called gods by the writers of scripture either.  Here is the correct context of the verse you quoted…

    John 10:33-36…  “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be a god.”

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”

    1. No Jew ever thought Jesus was – or claimed to be – THE Most High God who cannot even be seen by human eyes.  The very thought is ludicrous.

    2. Jesus claimed to be the son of God who came down from heaven, ie: a SPIRIT son of God, ie: a god.

    3. The Jews accused him of blasphemy because a human being was claiming to be a god who came down from heaven.

    4.  Jesus pointed them to Ps 82, which is a case of a bunch of gods (spirit sons of God) presenting themselves before their own God (YHWH), and YHWH passing judgement upon some of them.

    5.  The judgement was that, although He (YWHW) had created them as gods (spirit beings not subject to death like man is), they would indeed die like men die for their crimes of promoting evil deeds and the rejection of God to human beings.

    6.  Ps 82 is not the only time God passed this same judgement upon His eternal spirit sons.  The Book of Enoch tells of Azazel and others who mated with human women (Gen 6:1) and taught humans sorcery, weaponry, and all kinds of other things God didn’t want man to be involved with. (Enoch 9:6-9… Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins.)

    7.  Because of this betrayal by the “Watchers”, God passed judgement upon them.  Many of them were bound and buried deep in the earth to await judgment.  (Enoch 10:11-14…  And the Lord said unto Michael: ‘Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves… And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement… In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire…)

    8.  So Jesus’ argument to the Jews was that their own scriptures tell the account of God calling His spirit sons “gods”.  And his point was that if God calls His other spirit son “gods”, then why wouldn’t God’s firstborn Son – who is set aside from the others as God’s special son (only begotten) – also be at least as much of a god as the others.

    9.  Jesus didn’t claim to be a god ON earth.  But he claimed to have existed as a god in heaven before being born again on earth as a man.  It was this claim that the Jews took offense to.  They didn’t believe he was sent down from heaven, and so in their minds, he was just a regular man who was falsely claiming to have been a spirit son of God (a god) who was sent down from heaven.  And that would be blasphemy.

    #873002
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Then Israel is not a collective noun because God refers to Israel with the singular pronouns of him and he and the singular noun firstborn son.

    That is poetic language – like when people refer to a ship as a “she”.  Is it your claim that every time every single one of the authors of scripture refer to God as a “he/him”, they are all using this kind of poetic language?

    Do you allow for the possibility that even one of those authors called God a “he” because they truly believed that God was a single male person?

    LU:  Then Jesus is not being truthful when He says that “the Father and I are One?”

    John 17:11… Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

    John 17:21… that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us

    Are you being truthful when you use one example to support your claim that “being one” means that God and Jesus are somehow the very same entity, but then not using these other examples to claim that Jesus’ disciples are also the very same entity that consists of God and Jesus?

    Kathi, do John 17:11 and 21 teach us that Jesus’ disciples are literally the same entity, and that they are part of “the entity of YHWH”?  If not, then it is terribly weak of you to imply that John 10:30 (I and the Father are one) does teach that Jesus and his God are part of “the entity of YHWH”.

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