John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,061 through 23,080 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #873003
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

    DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS ACCORDING TO HEBREWS EXCEPT THE SON OF GOD?

    I don’t.  Do you know someone who IS the very entity that he is the son OF?

    #873004
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    WHAT THE FATHER IS, IN THE BIGINNING
    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON WAS ALSO

    WHEN WILL YOU UNDERSTAND THIS VERY SIMPLE THING?

    #873005
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: WHEN WE SAY:

    GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…
    WHAT THE HELL ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

    SINCE WE DON’T KNOW WHAT GOD IS!

    This is a tactic that has been used by Trinitarians for centuries.  They fully understand that the Bible doesn’t support their doctrine, and so they have no choice but to claim that God is a Trinity – but it’s beyond the understanding of humans.

    The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”

    Monsignor Eugene Clark says: “God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it.”

    Cardinal John O’Connor states: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.”

    And Pope John Paul II speaks of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”

    Lame.  The Bible was written and preserved for the benefit of humans – not angels.  It is worthless if is “beyond human reason”.

    Hey Carmel, when are you going to answer my questions?

    1.  Is it scriptural that God did signs and wonders through His servants Moses, Joshua, Elijah, etc?

    2.  Is it scriptural that God did signs and wonders through His holy servant Jesus?

    3.  Is it scriptural that God can do even greater signs and wonders through any of us if He chooses to?

    #873006
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Notice the definite article where Thomas says “the Lord of me and the God of me” in the interlinear below. He is referring to Jesus, btw.

    2 Cor 4:4… The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers…

    Notice the definite article here.  He is referring to Satan btw.

    #873007
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Okay Carmel, I just asked Jesus in his own name if he is God – or the holy servant of God.  Jesus told me to read the scriptures, where it’s abundantly clear that he can’t very well BE his and our God if he is the son, servant, prophet, spokesman, priest, messiah, holy one, angel, first creation, and sacrificial lamb OF his and our God.

     

    Carmel:  YOU SIMPLY ASKED THE WRONG JESUS…

    Priceless!  So you expect us to believe you when you say your teaching comes from Jesus himself, but if I make the same claim, I asked the wrong Jesus?  😂😅🤣

    I’ll say again, we are to test the spirits.. and the ONLY thing we have to test them against is the Holy Scriptures.  You teach doctrines that contradict those scriptures.  I proclaim exactly what those scriptures teach.  That is why we are always in disagreement.

    #873008
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Interesting that Adam’s post does not mention the term “redemption” or “redeem” or “firstborn” yet to celebrate the Passover Moses writes this:

    12you shall devote to the LORD every firstborn of a womb… every firstborn among your sons you shall redeem. 14And it shall be when your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is this?’ then you shall say to him, ‘With a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery… Therefore, I sacrifice to the LORD the males, every firstborn of a womb, but every firstborn of my sons I redeem.’ 

    👍👍👍

     

    #873009
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  I think that Thomas referring to Jesus as the God of himself and the Lord of himself agrees perfectly with what the Father calls the Son in Hebrews 1, YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands…  The Son with a Father and their Spirit is a package deal.

    And just that fast, immediately back to posting nonsense. 😕

    #873010
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: For Sis Kathi….

    Understanding Hebrews 1:10-12 (Matthew Janzen, Revised 2015)…

    That was a very good read, Adam… thanks.

    1.  I really liked the suggestion of just using parentheses around 10-12.

    2.  I’m happy that Kathi now knows the quote came from the LXX – which didn’t use the tetragrammaton “YHWH”.  This means that even if she insists that the writer was attributing the creation to Jesus, he wasn’t attributing the name YHWH to him.

    3.  The author you quoted didn’t even have to go the next chapter to show that the writer of Hebrews knew that the God of Jesus was the one who created the world, since it is already right there in chapter 1…

    Hebrews 1:2…  But in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the world.

    It stands to reason that if Jesus is the one through whomHE” made the world, then Jesus can’t possibly be the “HE” who actually did make the world.  (And the “HE” is identified in the previous verse as “God”.)

    So thanks again for posting that.  Here is the passage as it should be…

    Heb 1:5-14  For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?

    Or again: “I will be His Father, and he will be My Son”?

    And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire.” But about the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy.”

    (And in the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed; but You remain the same, and Your years will never end.)

    Yet to which of the angels did God ever say: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?

    (Are they all not ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?)

    Berean:  It’s purely Christian interpretation. I thought it may be useful to you.

    Translation for Kathi:  I hope that helps. 😉

    #873011
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  If you believe God the Father called Jesus a God, then God the Father would  be contradicting his very own words… BESIDES ME, THERE IS “NO” GOD. 

    1 Kings 11:33…  I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molek the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in obedience to me, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my decrees and laws as David, Solomon’s father, did.

    Gene, this is YHWH talking about three other gods besides Himself.  Not only that, but He calls them all by the plural “elohim” – which the Trinitarians falsely say applies only to YHWH because He is a “Trinity Godhead”.

    So two birds with one stone. 😎

    Gene, YHWH is the god of gods, and therefore cannot literally be the only god.  And the fact that He Himself calls others gods MANY times in scripture proves that the verses you continually quote are emphatic statements, meant to convey that YHWH is the greatest god – not literally the only one.

    It’s like saying that Tom Brady was the only real quarterback the New England Patriots ever had.  It is an emphatic statement meaning that Brady was by far the greatest, but is not meant to be taken literally, as if he is the only QB the Patriots ever had in their entire history as an NFL team.

    #873012
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Some good replies from this page Mike. Totally agree.

    #873013
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Gene, YHWH is the god of gods, and therefore cannot literally be the only god. 

    Me

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    This is the only TRUE GOD that is important to consider along with the Lord Jesus Christ.

    #873014
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  I am only investigating the so called greater claims of the NT and Christianity by comparing them with their original source the Hebrew scriptures.

    I’m curious to how you believe the worldwide and lasting phenomenon of Jesus came to be.

    1.  A unknown craftsman from Bethlehem turns 30 and starts going around telling people he is the son of God sent down from heaven.

    2.  A small group of people who know he’s lying make up false stories about him doing miracles that he never actually did.

    3.  More and more people take the word of this small group without seeing the miracles themselves, and remain faithful to the testimony of these conmen to the point that they are tortured and killed for their beliefs.

    4.  Eventually, virtually every living soul in the entire world knows about this Jesus, and billions of them over the years are led to God Almighty through him.

    That’s how I’m imagining your belief in my own mind.  Please clarify how you believe Jesus came to be a worldwide phenomenon by falsely claiming to be the awaited messiah of the Jews.

    #873015
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Does God have essence or IS God essence? Can you answer that?

    God shares his divine nature with his Sons, so divinity doesn’t make you or anyone God himself.

    Likewise, He is the Father of spirits, thus being a spirit doesn’t make you God either.

    God is God because he is eternal and all things came from him. And in the context of sons, God is the Father of them.

    Jesus Christ on the otherhand is the Son of God. The firstborn. The image of the invisible God.

    Let’s not rob God by making others equal to him. Let’s not rob the Son of his uniqueness and first place among God’s sons and his kingdom.

    #873016
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: Hi brother Gene, sorry I am not for Jesus to be a sacrificial Lamb as God never accepted Human sacrifice on the alter for redemption of sins. In fact it was an abomination to Yahweh.

    Scripturally speaking, Yahweh expected every firstborn male human to be sacrificed to Him, but allowed the Israelites to redeem their own children by sacrificing a lamb in their stead.

    Also, Yahweh asked Abram to sacrifice his son – but then had an angel stop him before it happened.  But the fact that Abram was willing to do it for Yahweh was counted as faithfulness, and God proceeded to build a nation for Himself out of that one man because he was willing to sacrifice his very own son.

    In reality, it was a foreshadowing of how God was going to sacrifice His own son.

    #873017
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.

    Would you consider it equally fair for an atheist to tell you that once you convince every single Jew on earth to agree with you on every single point of the OT, they will consider your convictions reasonable and based on truth?

     

    #873018
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: You teach doctrines that contradict those scriptures. 

    ME: Be specific, please!

    Here is MY JESUS!

    WHOM SCRIPTURES PROCLAIM HIM

     

    GODMAN:

    1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    GOD IN FLESH:

    Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally; 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH:

    Jeremiah 32:27 Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall anything be hard for me?

     Isaiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor,

    God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

    John20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me,

    for I am not yet ASCENDED TO (THE GLORY OF)  my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ASCEND TO (THE GLORY OF)  my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 

     

    John 1:1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

     Titus 2:11 For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men; should live soberly, and justly, and godly in this world, 13Looking for the blessed hope and coming of

    the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

     

    John 20:28 Thomas answered, and said to him:

    “My Lord and my God”

     

    Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh,

    who is over all things, God blessed forever. Amen.

     

    Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is the mystery of godliness,

    which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.

    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 

    Romans 1:20  For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made;

    his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable. 21Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. 23And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man,

    Ephesians 4:4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 

    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #873019
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……The number one problem here is that you and others do not understand WHAT THE WORD GOD MEANS, . “THE WORD GOD IS NEVER A REAL PERSON, It “only” means THE ,  “RELATIONSHIP” YOU HAVE,   with something,  “ANYTHING” can be Your GOD.  IT DOSENT EVEN HAVE TO BE ALIVE.  It could even be a rock , your money,  what ever it doesn’t matter what it is, as long as it fits this .

    “THE “POWER” YOU LEAN ON “FOR SUPPORT AND STRENGTH”,  THAT IS “YOUR”  GOD. 

    That is why we speak of the “GOD “OF” THIS OR THAT.  GOD  is not a person, it’s the type of relationship you have with ANYTHING that exist.

    Therefore it says,  ” But unto “us” there is but “ONE”  GOD, and one mediator between GOD  and men,  “THE “MAN” Jesus Christ.    Not the God Jesus Christ,  but the “MAN” Jesus Christ.

    Jesus said clearly, this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD.

    You either believe it or not,  The “us” there is the true believers,  I and all true believers, “ONLY” HAVE “ONE” GOD  and there is “NO” other God to us.

    The word GOD has been miss applied  ,  because it describes a “RELATIONSHIP”  ANYTHING.  

    When Jesus said , ‘it says you are God’s , that was meant in a possessive sense ,  not a real God being sense.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

     

    #873020
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Adam: First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.

    You will never arrive at the truth with such demands.

    Imagine if you ask the same question of the Pharisees and teachers of the law or scientists.

    Personally I find Mike to be pretty spot on with his teachings on the scriptures. But many come here to debate for a reason. Because they hold some pretty far out views that are not that common out there in the churches. If we look at the bigger picture, there is the truth, man-made tradition, and cults. This is no surprise. Where ever there is truth, there is distraction and opposition.

    I just wish Mike would give up on science. I do not think that is his calling.

    #873021
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, much of what you say in your last post is correct IMO. But your application of it misses the mark.

    #873022
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  SINCE GOD IS OMNIPOTENT, WHY THEN MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE WHEN HE CAN EVERYTHING.
    THIS THESIS DOESN’T STAND UP … (that’s my opinion)

    THEN IN THE CASE ( This is what I believe)  OR GOD HAS CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIS OMNIPOTENT WORKER, WHY WOULD HE CHOOSE TO ACT SO ????

    God often does things through intermediaries that He could do by Himself.  He created a nation for Himself through Abraham – even though He could create children for Abraham from stones if He wanted to.  He sent an angel to wipe out 185,000 Assyrians once – even though He could have done that Himself.  He sends prophets to speak His words to the people – even though He could just speak His own words from heaven like He did once while the Israelites were in the wilderness.

    So I don’t know the answer to your question about why God would choose to do things this way.  I only know that according to scripture, God usually chooses to act through intermediaries.

    Berean:  MY ANSWER IS THAT GOD NEEDS A SON (OMNIPOTENT) BUT NOT THAT, IN ORDER TO FULFILL HIS PURPOSES IN CASE HIS FREE WILL CREATURES WOULD COME TO REBELL AGAINST HIS GOVERNMENT.
    THEREFORE THE SON TAKEN CARE OF EVERYTHING ( in agreement with his father)
    CREATION
    REDEMPTION
    THE JUGEMENT

    I wouldn’t say that God needs someone else in the position you describe – but it’s scriptural that God has someone in that position… His firstborn Son.

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