John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 23,021 through 23,040 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872960
    Berean
    Participant

    But if you say that Jesus Christ is the Word that was with God before the cosmos, that he emptied himself and came in the flesh, was obedient to God, sacrificed for our sins as the Lamb of God, rose from the dead as death is defeated, and is now in the glory that he had with God before the cosmos, then you have zero contradictions. 

     

    Proclaimer

    He WAS(in The BIGINNING) and IS Now “THE WORD “

    WHO WAS (in The BIGINNING) and IS NOW WITH GOD 

    AND WAS GOD( in The BIGINNING) 

    And NOW IS GOD AND MAN FOR ETERNITY (COLOSSIANS 2:9)

    EMMANUEL (GOD WITH US)

     

     AMEN !

    #872961
    gadam123
    Participant

    Isaiah 45:14Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God,
    the God of Israel the saviour.

    16They are all confounded and ashamed:

    the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.

    What are your comments regarding the above scripture!

    Hi Carmel, What do you want from me on this verse? I am just quoting the verses surrounded by the verse Isaiah 45:14 for your reference.

    I have aroused Cyrus[e] in righteousness,
    and I will make all his paths straight;
    he shall build my city
    and set my exiles free,
    not for price or reward,
    says the Lord of hosts.
    14 Thus says the Lord:
    The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia,[f]
    and the Sabeans, tall of stature,
    shall come over to you and be yours,
    they shall follow you;
    they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
    They will make supplication to you, saying,
    “God is with you alone, and there is no other;
    there is no god besides him.”
    15 Truly, you are a God who hides himself,
    O God of Israel, the Savior.
    16 All of them are put to shame and confounded,
    the makers of idols go in confusion together.
    17 But Israel is saved by the Lord
    with everlasting salvation;
    you shall not be put to shame or confounded
    to all eternity.
    18 For thus says the Lord,
    who created the heavens
    (he is God!),
    who formed the earth and made it
    (he established it;
    he did not create it a chaos,
    he formed it to be inhabited!):
    I am the Lord, and there is no other.
    19 I did not speak in secret,
    in a land of darkness;
    I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
    “Seek me in chaos.”
    I the Lord speak the truth,
    I declare what is right.

    Yes this chapter is about the Persian Emperor Cyrus who was addressed as the Messiah (Anointed) by the God of Israel and this chapter also is about the Unity of God and no one besides him. Yes he is mentioned as a hidden God but the same God Yahweh no one else.

     

    #872962
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……I agree with that also brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene

    #872963
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Another point to consider ,   Was Jesus dealing with the salvation of Carmel nation , or with eternal salvation of all human beings? ,  the Salvation Of Jesus was for eternal life,  the Jew’s salvation looks to their physical salvation as a nation. Big difference in what kind of salvation we’re talking about, The Jews rejected their eternal salvation, when they rejected God the Fathers sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus Christ,  but some did accept it and even to this day some are,  but the rest will have their kingdom  restores to them and will have to continue their sacrifices for their sins as before. Because they missed out on their “eternal” salvation, God offered them,  please don’t miss out on that salvation brother.  Remember all the prophets God sent to them, and how they mistreated them and did not believe them,  Just as they did  not believe in Jesus either and even murdered him.  Be careful and not miss out on your calling brother.

    Your confusing two different events,  one physical,  and the other Spiritual,  which the Physically minded  have no part of.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam……….gene

    #872964
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: “a god”
    This is not what the Bible conveys to make us understand WHO IS JESUS….

    THAT IS TO SAY THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD

    “A god who is not THE Most High God” is exactly what the Bible conveys about Jesus.  Also…

    John 3:16-17… For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that everyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    God is the “Savior of the world”, Berean.  In this most recent instance, God chose to save the world through His Son, Jesus.  But he has also saved His people numerous times through other faithful servants…

    Nehemiah 9:27… and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

    Notice that although it was God who was the actual Savior, the faithful servants whom God used to save His people were also given the title “savior”.  It is the same with Jesus.  Yes, Jesus is one of the many saviors God has given His people – but don’t ever lose sight of the fact that it is God alone who is the ultimate Savior that sends all those other saviors – just like He sent Jesus.

    Likewise, Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Jesus and many others did miraculous signs and wonders.  But don’t ever forget that, although the miracles were attributed to the ones who were seen doing them, it was God alone who actually did the miracles through those others.  And that also includes Jesus…

    Acts 2:22… Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    Berean, did Moses perform the miracles?  Or did God perform the miracles through him?  Did Jesus perform the miracles? Or did God perform the miracles through him?

    Did Moses save the Israelites?  Or did God save the Israelites through him?  Did Jesus save mankind?  Or did God save mankind through him?

    Did Jesus create the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them?  Or did God create the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them through him?

    You are right on the verge of accepting scriptural truth.  It’s time to take that last step now.

    #872965
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    God did not perform a miracle through his Son to create the universe. THE ONLY SON BEGOTTEN HAS INHERITED HIS FATHER’S ABILITY TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE.
    IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?

    #872966
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  How come it doesn’t say the god Jesus met a woman at a well. Or the god Jesus died for us. And in Heaven he is not described as a god with eyes like fire.

    That’s like asking why the word “god” isn’t included in every mention of YHWH… or even Satan – who we know is “the god of this world”.  But let me reverse it on you… If Jesus isn’t a god who is not THE Most High God, then why these verses…

    Isaiah 9:6… he will be called… Mighty God…

    John 1:1… and the Word was a god.

    John 1:18… the only begotten god has made Him known.

    John 10:35-36…  If he called them gods… then what about the one whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

    I’m hopeful that you will eventually come to understand that ALL spirit sons of God are gods.  That includes Satan, Dagon, Michael, Ashteroth, Gabriel, Molech, Jesus… ALL of them.

    YHWH is the God of gods.  That is a meaningless title if there are no other gods for Him to be the God of.

    YHWH is the Most High God.  That is a meaningless title if there are no less high gods.

    YHWH is the Almighty God.  That is a meaningless title if there don’t exist less mighty gods.

     

    #872967
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    God did not perform a miracle through his Son to create the universe.

    What we know from scripture is that God did the miracles on earth through Jesus… and that God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them through Jesus.

    Hebrews 1:1-2… In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the world.

    Get it?  God did the speaking… THROUGH the prophets.

    God did the speaking… THROUGH His Son.

    God did the creating… THROUGH His Son.

    It’s not really that complicated.

    Berean:  THE ONLY SON BEGOTTEN HAS INHERITED HIS FATHER’S ABILITY TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE.  IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND?

    Well first of all, how do we know the Father even has that ability – since according to you the Father has never created a universe?  Secondly, what you’ve said above isn’t based on any scriptural teaching, and I therefore have no valid reason to even try to understand it.

    Berean, according to Jesus’ own apostles in Acts 4, who created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them?  Jesus?  Or someone other than Jesus?

    Just think… if you would just believe Jesus’ apostles (or even Jesus himself in Mark 13:19, etc), we’d never have to have this discussion again.  But since you don’t believe Jesus or his own apostles (who learned everything they taught from either Jesus or the Spirit), we keep going through the same nonsense over and over.

    #872968
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  So then “divinity” doesn’t necessarily mean “omniscient”?

     

    Berean: You do not understand
    Jesus put aside his divine attributes to live the human way
    On earth, he received through the Spirit of the Father what he had to say and do and therefore he depended entirely on his Father.

    I understand what you said – and agree with it.  But I’m still waiting for SCRIPTURAL verification that Jesus is CURRENTLY omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.  And since you have none to offer, there is really no reason for anyone to take you seriously when you make such claims.

    Also, as Proclaimer has aptly pointed out to you, the elect among us will someday partake in this same divine nature – yet that won’t make any of the elect omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.

    #872969
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH TO ME AND TO MANY OTHERS, EVEN IN THE OT, THOUGH NOT SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED  THE TITLE “GODMAN”

    Neither that title nor the idea is mentioned in any scripture.  Jesus was a god in heaven alongside his own God before the world began. Then Jesus was a man on earth.  Now Jesus is a god again who sits at the right hand of his and our God, YHWH.

    At no time was Jesus both god and man at the same time.

     

    Mike:  Carmel, the correct answer to my question is:  SCRIPTURE.  That is the only thing we have to test the spirits against.  In fact, the whole idea of testing the spirits to see if they are from God is based on the fact that evil spirits can convince you that you’re listening to Jesus himself – when you are not. 

     

    Carmel:  OF WHICH I PRODUCED TONS OF IT.

    Yes, you quote a lot of scriptures for sure.  The problem is that you then go on to claim things that aren’t supported by those scriptures you quote.  The trick is to quote scriptures and then make claims that those scriptures actually support… like I do.

    #872970
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  If the Son was not first then who was the first to be with God?

    This is a very good point that you’ve made here for years.  If we assume that Jesus is God, then there would have to be a very first son that this combo God brought forth into existence, right?  And as ComboGod’s firstborn son, surely we’d be told about him, right?

    In the Genesis genealogies, all of the fathers begat many sons and daughters – but their firstborn son is the prominent one who is mentioned by name, right?

    So why wouldn’t we know anything at all about ComboGod’s firstborn son – the one who was created as the first of his/their works, and therefore the beginning of the creation by ComboGod?

    On the other hand, if God is only one person, we’d likewise be told about His firstborn son – the one who was created as the first of His works, and therefore the beginning of the creation by God, right?

    (Col 1:15, Prov 8:22, Rev 3:14)

    #872971
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  His sonship HAD a BEGINNING but not His DIVINE NATURE WHICH HAD NO BEGINNING AND NO END.

    LU:  Amen Berean

    When the elect partake in the divine nature shared by Jesus and his God, will they all of a sudden become people who had no beginning or no end?  Or will they remain people who did once have a beginning?

    If it is the latter, then it doesn’t really matter what you guys imagine about the eternal divine nature of God applying to other persons, because the fact will remain that – divine nature or not – all of these people, including Jesus, had a beginning at one time or another.

    God had no beginning.  Jesus, the other gods, and human beings all did.

     

    #872972
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  The fourth gospel says that the Word was divine. There is no definite article in the last mention of theos.

    The lack of definite article says the logos was a god – not that he was “divine”.  John 1:1 tells of someone called the logos who was with THE god, and was himself a god (but not THE god he was with).

    #872973
    Berean
    Participant

    Well first of all, how do we know the Father even has that ability – since according to you the Father has never created a universe?  

     

    Mike,

    Since according to you God performed a miracle for his Son to create the universe, it is because HE HAS IN HIM THE POWER TO CREATE EVERYTHING AND THEREFORE HE WOULD HAVE TRANSFERRED TO HIS SON. So I have no doubt that the Father is omnipotent.

    And I have no doubt that the Son IS OF THE FATHER’S OWN SUBSTANCE AND THEREFORE HE IS GOD OF GOD AS A HUMAN SON IS HUMAN OF A HUMAN FATHER. SO, AND BECAUSE THE SON IS GOD IN ESSENCE, NATURE, HE HAVE THE POWER TO CREATE ALL THINGS.

     

    #872974
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Bible does not say that we “inherit” divine nature. We will share in divine nature meaning we will put on the righteousness of Christ and change from being corruptible to incorruptible.

    2 Peter 1:4… you may become (1)partakers of the (2)divine (3)nature

    1) a sharer, partner

    2) deity

    3) genus, nature

    It means some of us will share in the nature of gods, ie: have divine nature.  It is reiterated here…

    Acts 17:29…  Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that this divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

    The bolded part is the same word as #2 above… it means “deity”, and is “a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks” – according to the NET scholars.

    Paul’s teachings always included the assumption that those he was speaking to were the elect, who would eventually dwell in heaven – even those most of them were not.  But the teaching is that those of us who are accepted into a spiritual sonship of God (John 1:12-13) will have the nature of gods, ie: the divine nature that God and Jesus currently have.

    Having that nature won’t mean we are all of a sudden “from eternity” or “omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient”… just like Jesus sharing that deity nature doesn’t mean he is any of these things.

     

     

    #872975
    Berean
    Participant

    SINCE GOD IS OMNIPOTENT, WHY THEN MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE WHEN HE CAN EVERYTHING.
    THIS THESIS DOESN’T STAND UP … (that’s my opinion)

    THEN IN THE CASE ( This is what I believe)  OR GOD HAS CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIS OMNIPOTENT WORKER, WHY WOULD HE CHOOSE TO ACT SO ????

    MY ANSWER IS THAT GOD NEEDS A SON (OMNIPOTENT) BUT NOT THAT, IN ORDER TO FULFILL HIS PURPOSES IN CASE HIS FREE WILL CREATURES WOULD COME TO REBELL AGAINST HIS GOVERNMENT.
    THEREFORE THE SON TAKEN CARE OF EVERYTHING ( in agreement with his father)
    CREATION
    REDEMPTION
    THE JUGEMENT

    AND HE WILL GIVE EVERYTHING INTO THE HANDS OF THE FATHER WHEN HE HAS PUT ALL OF HIS ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET, DEATH WILL BE LAST.
    (1COR.15: 24-28)

    TO BE CONTINUED IF GOD……!?

    #872976
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Not applicable since God is spirit, not a spirit.

    God is a person, an entity.  Since He is qualitatively spirit, he is, by definition, a spirit.  Just like one who is qualitatively canine is a dog, one who is qualitatively feline is a cat, one who is qualitatively homo sapien is a man, and one who is qualitatively deus is a god.

    John 4:24 King James Bible…  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    When the Greek noun lacks the definite article, we often add the indefinite article in English translations – like the KJV did above.

    #872977
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  I will add that not only did the sonship have a beginning but the fathership would have as well at the same moment…

    Dirt was not eternal, it was created. There was a time when dirt was not.

    I hope that helps.

    There was a time when dirt was not, and there was a time when the firstborn son of God was not – as you yourself have acknowledged above (albeit in your usual twisted way).

    The Father is from eternity.  His firstborn is not, hence his titles: firstborn of every creature and beginning of the creation by God.  He did not always exist as did his Father, but was begotten by his Father at some point: You are my son; this day I have begotten you.

    This is what scripture teaches.  Anything you add to that about the son’s supposed eternal nature or cells dividing or whatever is of your own imagination, and is irrelevant in the minds of serious students of scripture.

     

    #872978
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Adam, is your coming messiah, who will be a regular old human being in every possible way, going to live forever?

    Adam:  Yes he will not be an old man as you rightly pointed out but he will certainly be a warrior prince. It will be an end time Messianic kingdom where the Israelites will live there forever with their children and grandchildren and David will be their prince forever. I think this is possible with resurrection beliefs in the Hebrew religion. It may even be possible that the original David himself will be the Prince as mentioned in Ezek 37:25 as there will be resurrection of the dead in future.

    Where can I read about resurrection in the OT?

    #872979
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: The bible Say  That the son OF God IS “THEOS “AND THAT THE FATHER IS “THE THEOS” (JOHN 1)

    The Son IS “THEOS” BECAUSE HE IS THE OWN SON OF GOD( THE THEOS)

    The Bible also says that Satan is theos…

    2 Cor 4:4The god [THEOS] of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    Satan is also one of God’s sons…

    Job 1:6… Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    So if Satan is both theos and God’s son, then is Satan “from eternity” too?  Is Satan “omnipotent” too?

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