John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,941 through 22,960 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872809
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Are you saying that when Jesus was a human on earth he was not omnipotent or omniscient… but now he is?

    If so, please post a scripture or two to support your idea. 

    Me

    On earth Jesus retained his divinity, and he only used it according to the will of God the Father.

    John 5:19
    Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, he does nothing but what he sees the Father doing; and whatever the Father does, the Son also does likewise.

    John 8:28, 42
    I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

     

    When Jesus said that only the Father knew the day of his next return, it proves that Jesus lived well according to the human mode although he was still divine. He did not have access to this truth from the date of his return.

    The Father saw fit that it was not necessary for him to communicate to us through his Son or his angels on the day of his return.

    #872810
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Firstly, no scripture says Jesus created a single thing, let alone “all things”. 

    yes I know, for you you do not believe that Jesus IS REALLY THE SON OF GOD, AND THAT THEREFORE HE INHERITED THE DIVINE POWERS OF HIS FATHER.
    IT’S HARD FOR YOU AND YET IT’S THE TRUTH.

     

    Secondly, even if Jesus did create all things, it wouldn’t say anything one way or the other about him being all-knowing or all-powerful. 

    I have already answered above (872809)

    And lastly, I’m happy that you at least admitted above that there was a time when Jesus didn’t exist by saying “WHEN He begot His only Son”. 

    His sonship HAD a BIGINNING but not His DIVINE NATURE WICH HAD NO BIGINNING AND NO END.

    #872812
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike…..So let’s not strain our brains ok,  Scripture says  (not me )  But unto us the is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between God and Men,  the “MAN” Jesus Christ.

    Please tell me what part of that scripture you don’t believe?

    Hi Gene, there is no part of that scripture I don’t believe.  But let’s look at it in context…

    1 Tim 2:5-6… For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people. 

    Notice there is some present tense (red “is”) and some past tense (red “gave”) in that one statement.  It is saying that the man who gave (past tense) himself as a ransom is (present tense) the mediator between God and mankind.

    Let me say the same thing as the scripture above, but in a different order…

    1 Tim 2:5-6…  The man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people is the one mediator between God and mankind. 

    The first part refers to things that happened in the past:  Jesus WAS a man, and Jesus DID give himself as a ransom while he was a man.

    The next part refers to things that are currently ongoing:  Jesus IS currently the mediator between God and mankind.

    Gene, Jesus is not STILL giving himself as a ransom… that is something that applied to him in the PAST.  Jesus is not STILL a man… that is something that applied to him in the PAST.

    So now let’s place your “Jesus is still a man in heaven” theory against this teaching from Jesus himself…

    John 3:3-7…  Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again… no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’

    Understand what that means, Gene.  If you are currently flesh (ie: a man), then you must be born again of something other than flesh (ie: become something other than a man) to see or enter the kingdom of God.

    So please tell me which part of that scripture you don’t believe.

     

     

     

    #872813
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: I personally never expected SUCH ILLOGICAL COMMENT FROM YOU! WHY?

    Read again Jesus own words!

    John14:14 If you shall ask me anything in my name,

    that I will do.
    Aren’t the above words from the SOLE SOVEREIGN RULER convincing to you?
    If Jesus, the sole sovereign spirit and owner of humanity by His own blood said the above words;

    ATTENTION Mike,

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT JESUS WILL ALLOW SATAN TO DELIBERATELY INTERFERE 

    IN HIS OWN WORK, JUST LIKE THAT! YOU EITHER MUST BE JOKING OR YOU REALLY DON’T HAVE NEITHER A CLEAR KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS’ SOVEREIGNTY AT ALL NOR HIS

    REDEMPTION PROCESS.

    Okay Carmel, I just asked Jesus in his own name if he is God – or the holy servant of God.  Jesus told me to read the scriptures, where it’s abundantly clear that he can’t very well BE his and our God if he is the son, servant, prophet, spokesman, priest, messiah, holy one, angel, first creation, and sacrificial lamb OF his and our God.

    He said that you are very confused because you have in mind the traditions of men, and not the perfect words of God and his holy spokesman Jesus.  He said you err when you call him “GODMAN” and say that he is the “sole sovereign ruler of mankind” and say that he is even higher than his own God – who also happens to be our God.

    So there you have it from Jesus himself – as taught directly to me from him.

    Now… since you believe that the scriptural idea of testing the spirits to see if they are from God is nonsense, since Satan and his demonic spirits couldn’t possibly interfere in any message to someone who prayed to Jesus, then you have no choice but to blindly accept that what I’ve just shared with you is the truth directly from Jesus to me, right?

    So we’ll have no more of your “GODMAN” nonsense from here on out, right?  From now on, you’ll start teaching the scriptural truth that Jesus is not God Himself, but instead the son, servant, prophet, spokesman, priest, messiah, holy one, angel, first creation, and sacrificial lamb OF his and our God, YHWH, right?

    Good.  Let it be.

    #872814
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  WAS Jesus a human being,  made in the form  (image) of God, so are we…

    But that’s not what it says, Gene.  It says Jesus WAS (past tense) existing in the form of a god, and THEN was made into a human being.

    You are doing the same thing with Phil 2 as you do with John 8:58.  You are leaving out key parts of the scripture.

    #872815
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. This is the name by which she will be called: ‘The Lord Our Righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 33:16)

    Ezekiel 37:25… They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever

    Adam, is your coming messiah, who will be a regular old human being in every possible way, going to live forever?

    #872816
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Berean, is Jesus the one Most High God of gods – or someone other than the one Most High God of gods?

    Berean: I have already answered you many times on this. reread 1 Corinthians 8: 6 and you will have the answer.

    Your answer has consistently been that Jesus is NOT the Most High God of gods.  That is the correct answer.  So if Jesus is theos, but NOT the Most High theos of all the other theos, then he has no choice but to be one of the other theos that the Most High theos is the theos OF.

    And as such, Jesus is indeed a god who is not THE Most High God of gods.  AMEN?

    #872817
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  When Jesus said that only the Father knew the day of his next return, it proves that Jesus lived well according to the human mode although he was still divine. He did not have access to this truth from the date of his return.

    So then “divinity” doesn’t necessarily mean “omniscient”, does it?  And that means that even exalted and back in heaven, Jesus’ divinity still doesn’t necessarily mean he is omniscient, right?

    In other words, you have zero scriptures to support your claim that Jesus is (or has at any time been) omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.

    You shouldn’t claim stuff just to claim it, Berean.  Watch out or you’ll become like Kathi – building your own doctrine from your own imagination.

    #872818
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  His sonship HAD a BIGINNING but not His DIVINE NATURE WICH HAD NO BIGINNING AND NO END.

    What did I just say about making claims out of thin air that you can’t back up with scriptures?  Show me in scripture where I can read all about this “divine nature which had no beginning”.

    #872819
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel, post #872811 is the most brilliant post you’ve ever made here!  😁😂🤣  (just messing with you)

    #872820
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    And as such, Jesus is indeed a god who is not THE Most High God of gods.  AMEN?

    “a god”
    This is not what the Bible conveys to make us understand WHO IS JESUS….

    THAT IS TO SAY THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD

    #872821
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    How come it doesn’t say the god Jesus met a woman at a well. Or the god Jesus died for us. And in Heaven he is not described as a god with eyes like fire.

     

    #872822
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If we can inherit divine nature, then are we omniscient?

    Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    #872823
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Understand what that means, Gene.  If you are currently flesh (ie: a man), then you must be born again of something other than flesh (ie: become something other than a man) to see or enter the kingdom of God.

    Gene appears to teach from the flesh about the flesh. Even Jesus is just flesh to him it seems.

    Some people here need to be born from above.

    Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

    #872824
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    And as such, Jesus is indeed a god who is not THE Most High God of gods.  AMEN?

    “a god”
    This is not what the Bible conveys to make us understand WHO IS JESUS….

    THAT IS TO SAY THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD

     

    You

    So then “divinity” doesn’t necessarily mean “omniscient”

    You do not understand
    Jesus put aside his divine attributes to live the human way
    On earth, he received through the Spirit of the Father what he had to say and do and therefore he depended entirely on his Father.

     

     

    #872828
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike.

    YOU:  …you wouldn’t be able to just take my word for it if I told you that the things I’m trying to show you came via revelation from God, right?

    ME:  YOUR OWN PREACHING WOULD JUSTIFY WHETHER IT IS A REVELATION OR NOT!

    ME: Let’s start from scratch:

    http://merriam-webstercollegiate.com/dictionary/revelation

    noun rev·e·la·tion \ˌre-və-ˈlā-shən\
    : a usually secret or surprising fact that is made known

    : an act of making something known : an act of revealing something in usually a surprising way
    : something that surprises you

    Now to your human reasoning Mike, which in a way I repeat: I NEVER EXPECTED SUCH POOR A COMMENT, WHICH IRONICALLY IT SHOWS THAT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO PRODUCED ERRORS!

    YOU: I agree completely with you on that… which, ironically, is why I so rarely agree with you.  You consistently

    preach things that are either not in scripture at all (ie: GODMAN),

    ME: IN THE ABOVE DEFINITION OF  THE WORD “REVELATION”

    IT IS MORE THAN EVIDENT THAT IN ORDER FOR SOMETHING SPOKEN OR WRITTEN TO BE CALLED A REVELATION IT HAD TO BE SOMETHING WHICH, here it comes Mike:

    SURPRISES YOU, EVEN SHOCK YOU,  IT IS MAKING SOMETHING KNOWN, OR SOME SECRETS WHICH MADE KNOWN.

    OK , Mike, ACCORDING TO YOUR REASONING THEN, MY PREACHING IS DEFINITELY
    A REVELATION!

    NOW I MADE IT CLEAR Mike AND SAID:

    ME:  YOUR OWN PREACHING WOULD JUSTIFY WHETHER
    IT IS A REVELATION OR NOT!

    CONSEQUENTLY, Mike, SINCE YOUR REASONING IS THE MOST COMMON, AND THERE IS NOTHING IN IT WHICH WAS A SECRET, UNKNOWN, OR WHICH COULD NOT SUPRISES AND SHOCKS ME, WELL IT STANDS TO REASON THAT IT IS NOT TO BE EVEN CONSIDERED A REVELATION, IN FACT, IT IS SIMPLY AS YOU QUITE OFTEN SAY

    NONSENSE, AT LEAST TO ME.WITH EVERY  RESPECT.

    Well hear this, as you well said, I almost in all my posts I proclaim

    JESUS GODMAN!

    THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH TO ME AND TO MANY OTHERS, EVEN IN THE OT. THOUGH NOT SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED  THE TITLE “GODMAN”,

    JESUS IS GODMAN! BUT OBVIOUSLY, YOU AND OTHERS LIKE YOU DON’T ACCEPT IT.

    ON THE  OTHER HAND, IF JESUS NEVER GLORIFIED AS GODMAN, FROM THE FATHER’S POINT OF VIEW, WHO WAS EMBODIED IN JESUS ON EARTH, PRECISELY FOR SUCH TASK, I MEAN TO BE A MAN, AND WALK ON EARTH IT IS MORE A LOSS, AND HIS PLAN IN JESUS, IS A FAILURE. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY ABSURD EVEN TO THINK OF IT NEVERMIND PROCLAIM IT, SINCE GOD ALMIGHTY ALREADY EXPERIENCED MANHOOD EMBODIED IN ONE GLORY WITH JESUS CHRIST BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. John17:5 

    YOU: or are clearly refuted by scripture (ie: Jesus is more powerful than God).

    I PUT IT THIS WAY TO YOU!

    A DIRECTOR AND OWNER OF A PARTICULAR BUSINESS, ORIGINALLY RUNNING THE BUSINESS HIMSELF, APPOINTED A PERSON TO RUN HIS BUSINESS AND EXECUTE ALL DIRECTIONS AND PROCESSES FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME. DURING THIS PARTICULAR PERIOD OF TIME THE DIRECTOR WAS NEVER SEEN IN THE FACTORY OR ANYWHERE IN RELATION TO THIS BUSINESS, IN FACT,  HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS BUSINESS AT ALL. HE IS UNKNOWN FROM THE MAJORITY OF THE EMPLOYEE, BUT OBVIOUS THE BUSINESS  WAS IN FULL FUNCTION AND IN FULL PROGRESS AND ACCORDING TO THE DIRECTOR’S WISHES AND WILL.

    Mike, WHO IS THE MOST POWERFUL IN RELATION TO THE BUSINESS AND ITS PROGRESS?

    DON’T TELL ME THE DIRECTOR FOR GOD’S SAKE!

    IT IS THE SAME STORY BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON!

    I PROCLAIM JESUS GODMAN and SOLE SOVERIGN OVER THE ENTIRE COSMOS, FOR THE PLEASURE AND GLORY OF THE FATHER.

    THE FATHER  IS ONLY A SPIRIT, THE FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS, AND IS NEITHER GODMAN NOR THE SOLE SOVEREIGN OVER THE ENTIRE COSMOS, YET!
    JESUS IS,   APPOINTED BY THE FATHER NO? 
    SIMPLY AS JESUS IS THE ONLY FATHER AND GOD OF  BOTH

    ALL THE SPIRITS AND OF ALL THE FLESH! John 20:17, 17:10

    IF THE FATHER THOUGH HE IS DEFINITELY MOST POWERFUL BUT TEMPORARY

    HE IS NOT FUNCTIONING  AS SUCH AND HE IS SIMPLY IN HIS REST, AND SINCE AS A CONFIRMATION THAT HE WAS  SUCCESSFUL WITH, BY, AND IN JESUS’ TASK, HE APPOINTED JESUS  BOTH A MAN IN “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, AND THE SON OF GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST, John5:25-27 IN SHORT, GODMAN JOHN13:31-32 AND  THE SOLE SOVEREIGN OVER ALL,

    JESUS IS DEFINITELY THE MOST POWERFUL AND JUDGE SINCE ONLY BY THE MENTIONING OF JESUS’ NAME  ON THIS PLANET SATAN AND HIS DEMONS ARE CAST DOWN INTO HELL.

    NOW THE FATHER IS JUST AND PERFECT, AND ONLY JESUS, OBVIOUS SUPPORTED BY THE FATHER, IN HIS PRESENCE FIRST

    IN HELL ON HIS DEATH, THEN ON EARTH BY THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM PENTECOST IN JESUS’ NAME AND POWER,  ESTABLISHED AND MADE KNOWN THE FATHER AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD

    PHYSICALLY IN HIMSELF:

    JESUS CHRIST 1John5:19-20, IT STANDS TO REASON THAT IF THE FATHER IS ACCEPTED AND KNOWN ONLY IN/BY JESUS’ TASK ON EARTH, AND IN HELL, SOMETHING WHICH THE FATHER COULD IN NO WAY FOR A REASON OR ANOTHER ACHIEVE ALL BY HIMSELF, A SPIRIT, WHAT IS THERE TO PREVENT THE FATHER FROM PUTTING JESUS  IN FULL POWER AND AUTHORITY, attention please:

    IN ORDER FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT, SENT BY JESUS’ ORDER FROM THE FATHER,

    TO ACCOMPLISH AND ESTABLISH THIS TIME,

    JESUS CHRIST AND THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!  HUMANS IN FLESH! AS MUCH AS

    THE SON ESTABLISHED THE FATHER AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD! HUMANS IN SPIRIT!

    THE FACT THAT HE IS

    ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER AS 

    GODMAN, SPIRITFLESH!

     

    John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you:

    but you cannot bear them now (JESUS AS GODMAN)

    13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. (JESUS’ GODSHIP)
    For he shall not speak of himself; ;”(OF GOD THE FATHER)
    but what things soever he shall hear, (IN RELATION TO GOD THE SON) he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you.

    14He shall glorify me; (GODMAN John17:10) because he shall receive of mine, (THE POWER OF GOD THE SON AS MAN) and shall show it to you. (THROUGH MIRACLES IN JESUS’ NAME)
    15All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine.
    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, (GODSHIP)and show it to you.

    AS HE DID SHOW IT TO ME!

    YOU:Carmel, the correct answer to my question is:  SCRIPTURE.   

    ME: OF WHICH I PRODUCED TONS OF IT.

    YOU: That is the only thing we have to test the spirits against.  In fact, the whole idea of testing the spirits to see if they are from God is based on the fact that evil spirits can convince you that you’re listening to Jesus himself – when you are not. 

    AGAIN Mike,

    NOT WHEN WE OURSELVES ASK JESUS DIRECTLY,

    SIMPLY AS BY ASKING JESUS, WE CONFIRM

    THE SUPERIORITY OF GOD ON EARTH IN JESUS! READ:

    Luke 11:9 And I say to you,
    Ask, and it shall be given you:
    seek, and you shall find:
    knock, and it shall be opened to you.

    10For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. 

    11And which of you, if he asks his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion? 

    13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,

    how much more will

    your Father from heaven

    give the good Spirit to them that ask him?

     

    Mike, the above scripture is

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL

    IF I ASK JESUS CHRIST 

    MY GOD AND FATHER John20:17 ASSERTED ALSO IN

    Ephesians 4:6One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism. 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

    HE DEFINITELY GIVES ME NOT SATAN, BUT

    A GOOD SPIRIT 

    YOU: because you teach that Jesus is God Almighty,

    ME: NEVER! I USED THE TERMS

    GOD THE MIGHTY ! Isaiah 9:6 AND

    GODMAN!

    YOU: whereas the scriptures teach that Jesus is the son, servant, mediator, messiah, spokesman, prophet and sacrificial lamb OF God Almighty.

    BUT Mike, THE ABOVE IS NOT ALL THAT JESUS IS, READ HEREUNDER SOME MORE TRUTH OF WHAT JESUS IS AND WHAT KIND OF SERVANT HE IS NOW.

    15Who is the image of the invisible God,

     the firstborn of every creature: 16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.  17And he is before all, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

    Did you notice something in the above scripture Mike?

    What happened to the word

    SERVANT and all the rest of the titles by which you are discrediting

    Jesus Christ?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872829
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Carmel, post #872811 is the most brilliant post you’ve ever made here!     (just messing with you)

    What do you expect from a person still living on milk!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872830
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    If we inherit divine nature, do we become omniscient?

    God knows everything because he is eternal and no one existed before God. There is nothing outside of God.

    The Son was begotten of God.

    Colossians 1:15-18
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    So he is before the cosmos and all things.

    He was the first.

    God is not the first.

    He always was and is. I am that I am.

    If the Son was not first then who was the first to be with God?

     In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God

    So the Word is who the Son is. He was with God. And the Word became flesh. And we believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems ; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood,
    and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD

    #872833
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Why are you obsessed with flesh? It seems your doctrine is the doctrine of flesh.

    Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

    #872835
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Amen Berean, you said

     His sonship HAD a BEGINNING but not His DIVINE NATURE WHICH HAD NO BEGINNING AND NO END.

    I will add that not only did the sonship have a beginning but the fathership would have as well at the same moment unless there was a son prior to Jesus but that would knock Jesus out of the firstborn spot. The divine essence of the Father and the Son is identical and has no beginning or end.

    The Son is the exact representation of the Father’s nature. Heb 1

    Both are YHVH 😉 One God, One Lord.

    Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD (YHVH).

    I’m glad to agree with you Berean!

    Blessings, LU

     

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