John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,921 through 22,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #872787
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    In truth Paul is exhorting the Christians of Philip to have the spirit, the thoughts of Christ …. ok?

    And in fact, it shows what Christ did, from being in the form of God to being in the form of a servant by becoming man:
    Christ had to shed his form of God, he who was served and worshiped by the angels in heaven, to take on the form of a servant, by putting on our flesh. In fact Christ humbled himself (impoverished) in order to raise (enrich) us spiritually out of love for us and glorify his Father. This is the spirit of Christ, coming down from its pedestal to save the lost that we are. This is why Christ said, He that humbles himself will be exalted, and he that exalteth himself will be made low.

    #872788
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Berean……Being found in fashion  as a “man” ,why?,   was because he was a “MAN”.

    Gene, all men on earth today are men, right?  Do you say about any of them that they took upon them the form of a man, or that they were made in the likeness of men?  Of course not.  It’s a given that a normal man already IS a man, and so nobody goes around saying, “Hey check out Jim over there…  he was made in the likeness of a man.”

    It’s the same with this verse…

    Luke 3:23… He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph…

    and this verse…

    Romans 1:3… regarding His Son, who was a descendant of David according to the flesh

    These kinds of things aren’t said about human men who were never anything other than human men, Gene.  Nor is this said about any human man in regards to his ancestor…

    Rev 22:16… I am the Root and the Offspring of David

    I am not the “root” of any of my ancestors – and neither are you.  Nor does any regular man say he “came down from heaven”, or “I am from above, you are from below”.

    Now I realize that you strain your brain to come up with crazy and irrational “explanations” for these scriptural sayings, but just like you and I can recognize when Berean is straining his brain to twist God into a Trinity Godhead, the rest of us can recognize when you and Jodi are straining your brains to twist these verses (and MANY others) into not saying what they clearly and undeniably do say.

    #872789
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    It’s all about the “THE”, Berean.  As John told us, the logos was with THE God in the beginning, and was also god (but not THE God whom he was with)

     

    Me

    Jesus is not ” god “but the DIVINE SON OF GOD.
    REVIEW HEBREWS 1: 3

    I will read your previous messages

    #872790
    Berean
    Participant

     Mike

    Why on earth would you repeat a statement that I’ve already shown you to be erroneous?

    Is Jesus omnipotent?  “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Is Jesus omniscient?  “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt 24:36)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Me

    I speak about DIVINITY of Christ, NOT ABOUT HUMANITY.

    WHEN YOU WILL ACCEPT THE DIVINITY OF THE SON OF GOD (before his incarnation), THEN HIS DIVINITY UNITED TO OUR HUMANITY, THINGS WILL LIGHTEN FOR YOU.

     

    #872791
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike 

    Donc, tant que vous comprenez que la déclaration « pour nous il n’y a qu’un seul Dieu, le Père et un seul Seigneur, Jésus-Christ » est une hiérarchie nommant Dieu plus grand que Jésus et Jésus plus grand que nous, vous avez mon AMEN. 

    Me

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, 

    of whom are all things, and we in him;

    and one Lord Jesus Christ, 

    BY WHOM are all things, and we by him.  

    GOD DIDN’T MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE ALL THINGS, BUT WHEN HE BEGOT HIS ONLY SON, HE GIVEN HIM A DIVINE INHERITANCE: OMNIPOTENCE
    OMNISCIENCE
    OMNIPRESENCE
    ETERNITY 😃

     

     

    #872792
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..So let’s not strain our brains ok,  Scripture says  (not me )  But unto us the is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between God and Men,  the “MAN” Jesus Christ.

    Please tell me what part of that scripture you don’t believe?

    You say that a mediator can’t be a man or a God,  that is not true,  why because it could be either one, a mediator is a mediator no matter who he or she is.  You taking the word ‘mediator’ as meaning a different kind of being, or species,  and that is not what a mediator is,  it’s someone speaking in behalf of two parties.  as Moses was also a mediator between Israel and God . So are all prophets,  mediators too.

    The “MAN” Jesus Called a mediator in no way means OR IMPLIES, he is a different kind of being then we are, in fact it say he is a ‘MAN” TOO , just has a particular job type of Job he is doing “ONLY”. NOTHING ELSE. 

    PLEASE answer this question is Jesus to you, a human being, a Son of Mankind, who IS  also , a  “SON OF GOD” , according to Jesus he and we are both sons of man and sons of God .

    Another thing, the term “roots”  always mean the family tree which something comes from, never does it mean anything else , but a persons or things  linage. That is obviously  what Jesus meant, when he said he was the “root” and “offspring” of King David.  Many prophetic scriptures back that statement up. Trying to make it say something else is what I would call straining your brain” brother.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    #872793
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..where do you get all these weird thing from?

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #872794
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Berean… ..where do you get all these weird things? 

    Me
    What weird things?
    You can specify?

    #872795
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Then you tell me that you know you have been given truth from Jesus because Jesus is the one you asked for that truth, not the devil. 

    Forgive me for not being convinced –

    especially since we were forewarned that

    Satan can masquerade as an angel of light.

    First and foremost read this verse again in a different version

    And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 

    can you see the difference between

    masquerade and transform? I’ll make it clear for you:

    SATAN HIMSELF TRANSFORMS HIMSELF INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT WHEN HE IN ORDER TO DECEIVE OTHERS, DELIBERATELY DOES SOMETHING AGAINST

    THE WILL AND TRUTH OF GOD,

    BY WHICH  DECEIVING ACT

    THE WILL AND TRUTH OF GOD WOULD BE REVEALED!

    Scripture: Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and

    by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    JUST REFLECT ON THE ABOVE MIKE PLEASE!

    NOW,  I personally never expected SUCH ILLOGICAL COMMENT FROM YOU! WHY?

    Read again Jesus own words!

    John14:14 If you shall ask me anything in my name,

    that I will do.

    Aren’t the above words from the SOLE SOVEREIGN RULER convincing to you?

    If Jesus, the sole sovereign spirit and owner of humanity by His own blood said the above words;

    ATTENTION Mike,

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT JESUS WILL ALLOW SATAN TO DELIBERATELY INTERFERE 

    IN HIS OWN WORK, JUST LIKE THAT! YOU EITHER MUST BE JOKING OR YOU REALLY DON’T HAVE NEITHER A CLEAR KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS’ SOVEREIGNTY AT ALL NOR HIS

    REDEMPTION PROCESS.

    IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS REGARDING

    WHAT JESUS REDEMPTION IS AND MEANS! IT’S ALL THERE FOR YOU TO READ IN

    Luke 17:20-37. 

    Satan is allowed to do his work but for God’s sake,

    SATAN TILL THE END OF TIMES IS SUBJECT TO JESUS 

    GODMAN ON EARTH 

    MORE THAN THE FATHER AS HE IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them. 

    AND AFTER THAT NO SATAN ANYMORE.

    NOW, ACCORDING TO YOU

    I WILL DO WHAT JESUS ASKED ME TO DO, AND YOUR LOGIC SAYS INSTEAD

    SATAN WILL ANSWER ME CAMOUFLAGED AS JESUS. HA HA HA.

    THE BIGGEST LAUGH AND HERESY I’VE EVER HEARD FROM A SUPPOSED A SCRIPTURALLY MATURE PERSON. WITH EVERY RESPECT Mike

    YOU STILL ARE LIVING ON MILK I’M AFRAID.

    ANSWER Mr. Mike

    HOW ON  EARTH ARE WE SUPPOSE TO DO WHAT JESUS MADE CLEAR AND

    PRAY TO THE FATHER WITHOUT ANY KIND OF INTERFERENCE FROM SATAN,

    Just read the last piece from OUR FATHER:

    YOUR WILL BE DONE ON EARTH

    AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

    GOT IT?  NOT AS IT IS IN HELL Mr. Mike.

    Attention: IF I PRAY TO GOD, DEFINITELY SATAN WOULD MASQUERADE HIMSELF SINCE HE CONSIDERS HIMSELF AS GOD,

    BUT IF I PRAY DIRECTLY TO JESUS, SATAN DEFINITELY COULD NEVER MASQUERADE HIMSELF INTO JESUS, WHEN EVEN THE PRONOUNCEMENT OF JESUS’NAME WOULD CAST SATAN AND HIS DEMONS INTO HELL!

    CONSIDERING THAT JESUS ERADICATED SATAN’S GENERAL TASKS WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

    John 16:11And of judgment:

    because the prince of this world is already judged.

    HAVE YOU GOT ANY SUGGESTION, Mr.Mike?

    IN THE MEANTIME; Read again Jesus own words!

    John 14:1 LET not your heart be troubled. You believe in God,

    believe also in me. 

    John14:14 If you shall ask me anything in

    MY NAME,

    that I will do.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #872796
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Read the context Gene.

    Philippians 2, 5-9

    Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;

    #872797
    gadam123
    Participant

    Prove it, Adam.  Provide absolute irrefutable PROOF that Jesus was not existing in the form of a god, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being, who dwelt on earth for 30 years and then ascended back into heaven.

    Hi Mike, sorry I am not here to prove anything on Jesus the so called Messiah. In fact it is the other way round.

    Give us something of value by which we can take you seriously… because so far, your claim to fame is that the coming messiah can be absolutely anyone who is born at any given time on earth by any regular human woman in the normal fashion that all humans are born – and that this is somehow a sign that God gave us thousands of years ago.

    I have already given number of arguments on Hebrew Messiah and his human origins on this thread and appropriate thread on Messiah. Here are few more if you are really keen on learning about the Hebrew Messiah;

    …..The passage in Jeremiah states:

    In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. This is the name by which she will be called: ‘The Lord Our Righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 33:16)

    Ponder this: Has Judah been saved? Does Jerusalem dwell safely? We are well aware of the answers to these questions. The children of Israel, therefore, abide without a king because the messiah has not yet come. In fact, the predicament of the people of Judah and the condition of the city of Jerusalem became much worse around the beginning of the first century C.E. than it ever had been before. In fact, if Jesus were the messiah, why isn’t “Judah saved, and Jerusalem dwell safely.” In fact, I can think of no greater proof that Jesus is not the messiah from the very passage quoted above.

    The prophet Jeremiah is speaking of a future eschatological era when the Jewish people will dwell in their holy city in peace and tranquility. Such a golden age has not occurred since the glorious days of King Solomon. Only under these utopian circumstances will our anointed king again occupy the throne of David. This will occur, without interruption, only in the messianic age – just as the prophet foretold.  It is far more puzzling because the very verses demonstrate that Jeremiah is speaking of an end-of-days prophecy. Let’s explore the following Jeremiah’s prophecy:

    “…for thus says the Lord, “David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.” The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, “Thus says the Lord, ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’” Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, “Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the Lord has chosen, He has also cast them off?’ Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them.” Thus says the Lord, “If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; for I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.” (Jeremiah 33:17-26)

    These ten verses contain some of the most comforting messianic passages in the Jewish Scriptures. None of them, speaks of our current era rather, each of these passages give us a glimpse of the future messianic age that has yet to come.

    The above passage from the book of Jeremiah, which states:

    “…for thus says the Lord, “David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel…” (Jeremiah 33:17)

    Surprisingly, it is ignored that the following verse that is a vital part of the same sentence and prophecy. This selective reading of Jeremiah’s prophetic message led by Christianity to erroneously conclude that the prophet speaks of all of Jewish history. This is a misinterpretation of Jeremiah’s prophecy. The following passage continues,

    “…nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.” (Jeremiah 33:18)

    As we are well aware, neither a priest nor a Levite has brought a burnt, grain or sacrificial offering in Jerusalem for over 1,900 years. The prophets of Israel foretold that the sacrificial system would be restored in all of its glory at the end of days.

    At what juncture therefore, will the royal throne of David once again seat a ruler? At the same time that the sacrificial system will be restored to its rightful place in Jerusalem – during the advent of the messiah, and not before. At the End of Days the messiah, the “prince,” will offer a sin sacrifice on behalf of himself and the nation,

    ..And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin-offering. (Ezekiel 45:22)

    Moreover, in the following chapter of Ezekiel, the prophet declares that the messiah will offer a Passover sacrifice:

    And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the Lord in the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without a blemish. (Eze 46:4)

    As an aside, why would the messiah have to bring a lamb offering if, as the New Testament insists, Jesus was himself the lamb offering? (Jn. 1:29, 36; I Cor. 5:7; I Pet.19; Rev. 5:6-8, 6:1-16, 7:9-17) Furthermore, according to Christian teachings, why would Jesus have to bring a bull as a sin offering in the future Temple? Church teachings clearly state that Jesus was sinless (Jn. 8:46; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15, 7:26, 9:14; I Pet. 1:19; 2:22, I Jn. 3:5). In fact, in Hosea 3:4-5, the prophet reveals this divine plan of history as he declares that the Jewish people would remain for many days without a king, sacrifice or high priest (ephod) until the messianic age. The prophet states:

    “…for the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days.” (Hosea 3:4-5 )

    This prophecy completely undermines the contention that Judaism is deficient because it lacks a Davidic king. The Jewish people are today without a king precisely as Hosea had foretold. Moreover, the Church’s claim that it has a king places an enormous strain on Christian theology. Notice how Hosea, just as Jeremiah, connects the future king with future sacrifices as he declares that both of these ecclesiastical functions will be restored only in the “latter days.”

    I Chronicles 17:12-14 ; This passage states:

    He is the one who will build a house for Me, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his Father, and he will be My son. I will never take My love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. I will set him over My house and My kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever. (I Chronicles 17:12-14)

    I have yet to encounter a Christian who used passages from Jeremiah and I Chronicles to support the claim that there can never be a moment without a king reigning on the throne of David. Missionaries typically use Genesis 49:10 to support this well-known argument. Although this text may appear at first glance to be somewhat more ambiguous than the Scriptures you used, Christians zealously employ this verse to argue that the Torah states that the reign of Davidic kings will continue without interruption. This text reads:

    “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes…” (Genesis 49:10)

    What is the meaning of the uncommon Hebrew word “Shiloh”? Although there is some disagreement over the definition of this obscure word, there is a wide consensus among Jews and Christians that Shiloh is an uncommon reference to the messiah. Bear in mind, this verse is part of the blessing that Jacob bestowed on his son Judah, the ancestor of King David. Using Genesis 49:10, Christians argue that Jacob is revealing that the “scepter,” the symbol of kingship, will never depart from the tribe of Judah even until the End of Days. Pointing to the fact that the Jewish people maintain that there is no Davidic king today, missionaries argue that Judaism is a defective and blinding religion that has turned its back on Jesus, king of the Jews.

    Although it appears as though the Church has made a serious charge against the Jewish faith, this contention is born out of Christendom’s inability to grasp one of the most important covenants in the Bible. The notion that the reign of a Davidic king will continue uninterrupted is unknown to the Jewish Scriptures. This Christian creed has come about as the result of a skewed understanding of Jacob’s blessing and a misinterpretation of a vital promise made by God to King David. In all of the verses that  quoted, the Bible declares that the legitimate royal throne of the Jewish people will never be occupied by anyone other than a member of the tribe of Judah and the House of David. I Chronicles 17:12-142 is therefore, one of the most well-known passages in the Jewish Scriptures, because it contains God’s everlasting covenant with King David – the irrevocable promise that the throne would never depart from his dynasty until the end of time.

    Yet how can we be confident that this is the correct interpretation of the Scripture’s message? How can we know with certainty that the Bible is not suggesting that there would never be an interruption of a Davidic king to sit on the throne at every moment throughout history, as missionaries insist? The answer is simple. Even the Church concedes that there was no king on the throne of David for five centuries! In other words, missionaries acknowledge that from the time the Babylonians removed King Zedekiah from his throne and destroyed the First Temple, there has been no king since who reigned over the Jewish people who was a descendant of the House of David. If the Christian rendering of these prophecies is correct, why was there no king from the House of David who ruled during the Second Temple period? No further evidence is necessary to demonstrate that the Church’s interpretation of Genesis 49:10 and I Chronicles 17:12-14 is erroneous.

    There is, however, a far more serious problem with which missionaries must contend with regarding their claim that Jesus was a direct descendant from the House of David. According to Christian teachings, Jesus was born of a virgin. Although this assertion in the New Testament provides an important record of pagan influences on first century of Christianity, it also deals a devastating blow to the Church’s claim that Jesus is the messiah from the lineage of King David.

    By insisting that Jesus was born of a virgin, Christendom therefore concedes that Jesus lacked the human Jewish father necessary to trace his lineage back to King David and the tribe of Judah. This patrilineal connection to the Davidic dynasty is vital for any claimant to the throne of David, because the lineage of the mother is irrelevant in this regard. The Torah clearly states that tribal affiliation is traced exclusively through the father.

    They assembled the entire congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers…“ (Numbers 1:18)

    Moreover, the author of the Book of Hebrews’ strange assertion that Jesus was also a high priest further weakens the Church’s claim that Jesus is eligible to rule as a Davidic king. For example, the author the Epistle to the Hebrews writes:

    Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. (Hebrews 3:1)

    Seeing then that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. (Hebrews 4:14)

    This stunning assertion that Jesus was high priest further undermines the Church’s claim that Jesus was a Davidic king. Simply put, the same man can never be both high priest and king. The high priest must be a descendant of Aaron (the brother of Moses), who was a descendant from the tribe of Levi. A Davidic king, on the other hand, has to trace his lineage from the House of David, descended from the tribe of Judah. It is impossible for the same person to be both a member of the tribe of Levi and Judah.

    It isn’t difficult to understand why the Book of Hebrews repeatedly insists that Jesus served as high priest – the notion that Jesus provided the ultimate sin sacrifice for the human race was vital to the core theology of this Pauline author. This astonishing claim, however, completely sabotages the missionary contention that Jesus was eligible to sit on David’s throne.

    There is no mystery as to how Christianity inflicted this theological wound upon itself. During the first century, the Church had endured a rapid theological transition. In its earliest years, the founders of Christianity sought Jews to join their young movement. As the first century began to draw to a close, however, Christendom recognized that the Jewish people were by and large unimpressed with their message. The zealous effort to convert the Jews en-mass failed. The Church understood that if Christianity was going to flourish, they needed to attract converts from heathen communities that dotted the Fertile Crescent. Although the Church’s swift adaptation at this crucial juncture was highly successful, it would have devastating consequences for the theological complexion of this once-Jewish heresy.

    Quite rapidly and with great ease, Christendom adopted pagan teachings and ideas that were widely familiar to the citizens of the Roman Empire. Virtually all of the god-men and divine saviors of Persia, the Far East, North Africa, and Rome were born to a virgin mother. As a result, the notion that Jesus was also born of a virgin quickly became well ensconced and widely accepted in the teachings of the young Christian Church.

    Christianity would eventually import many other notable pagan beliefs into its teachings. Yet many of these creeds, such as the doctrine of the Trinity, would take a few more centuries and numerous political struggles until they were firmly a part of Church orthodoxy. The belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, on the other hand, was adopted by the Church so early that the New Testament was still being fashioned when it was embraced by first century Christians.

    Christendom paid no small price for becoming the repository of pagan lore. The consequences for adopting the doctrine of the virgin birth created a theological disaster from which the Church has never recovered, and rendered every royal and priestly claim it has made for Jesus untenable….(taken from Outreach Judaism’s website)

    #872798
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Mike, sorry I am not here to prove anything on Jesus the so called Messiah. In fact it is the other way round.

    Nope. If you do not want to receive him, then you are clearly not ready.

    God will reveal it to you if you are ready to hear the truth.

    Otherwise, you will come up every excuse under the sun to deny him.

    Your current excuse is that the Old Testament should have the whole plan of God written down and that is it.

    But it introduced the law which is the knowledge of sin.

    Then the the work of salvation was performed so that we who are convicted can receive forgiveness.

    You are waiting for a king of Israel like Barabbas and have no plan to deal with your sins. Barabbas isn’t going to help you here.

    I mean, what do you think a messiah does? Become king of a country? Then Kim Jong-un is a messiah by that definition.

    But whatever. You are free to believe whatever you want.

    #872801
    gadam123
    Participant

    Your current excuse is that the Old Testament should have the whole plan of God written down and that is it.

    Hi Proclaimer, as I have quoted earlier the Hebrew Bible is full in all respects as per the basis of a religion. It’s the misconception of Paul and other writers of Christianity that it is only the School tutor for their newly invented religion.

    Your repeated quoting of Old (Testament) is only for showing sin is another Paul’s new slogan to negate the eternal validity of Torah.

    You are waiting for a king of Israel like Barabbas and have no plan to deal with your sins. Barabbas isn’t going to help you here.

    I mean, what do you think a messiah does? Become king of a country? Then Kim Jong-un is a messiah by that definition.

    But whatever. You are free to believe whatever you want.

    Again it is the very basis for founding of Christianity stating that Jesus was that promised Messiah. The NT writers tried their level best to place him in the prophecies on  this Messiah of whom you are having so much aversion. The Hebrew Bible talks about God’s utopian rule only during reign of this promised Messiah. You seem to ignore such universal peace and knowledge of God during this Messianic rule on this earth and not in heaven as many Christians preach.

     

    #872802
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..None of what It say there makes us any different then Jesus, except he was EXULTED by God our Father over all of his HUMAN brothers and sisters.

    WAS Jesus a human being,  made in the form  (image) of God, so are we, was he found existing as a flesh human being , so are we, did he humble his self and serve God the Father , so should we. Was he highly exulted , so will we be , if we obey God the Father in every way as,  the “MAN” Jesus did.

    What make anyone think that scripture changes Jesus from being a human being, or that he existed as a different being,  before he came to this earth?  That scripture has nothing to do with a “PREEXISTING” Jesus before he was born on this earth.  It was referencing his existence when he was on this earth, not before he was on this earth. He simply never tried to make himself equal to God ever. Only the false teachers of Satan do that,  it proves Jesus never did that then, when he was on this earth,  nor would he do that now either. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

     

    #872803
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Jesus is the MESSIAH,  he came first to deliver us from our sins,  Next time as the ruler of this whole world.

    Those Jew’s are misguiding you brother,  they murdered him then,  and what would make you think, they know what they are saying NOW?  Have you now joined the enemies  of our lord , Jesus Christ, and Almighty God who sent him, and will send him again are you going to be with them who weep for all the wickedness they did to him?  ADAM YOU WERE ON TRACK , WHAT HAPPENED BROTHER?  

    peace and love to you and your Adam…………gene

    #872804
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Jesus is not ” god “but the DIVINE SON OF GOD.

    Berean, scripture tells us about a bunch of gods, and only one Most High God of the other gods.  That is fact.

    Berean, is Jesus the one Most High God of gods – or someone other than the one Most High God of gods?

    #872805
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  I speak about DIVINITY of Christ, NOT ABOUT HUMANITY.

    Are you saying that when Jesus was a human on earth he was not omnipotent or omniscient… but now he is?

    If so, please post a scripture or two to support your idea.

    #872806
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  GOD DIDN’T MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE ALL THINGS, BUT WHEN HE BEGOT HIS ONLY SON, HE GIVEN HIM A DIVINE INHERITANCE: OMNIPOTENCE
    OMNISCIENCE
    OMNIPRESENCE
    ETERNITY

    Firstly, no scripture says Jesus created a single thing, let alone “all things”.

    Secondly, even if Jesus did create all things, it wouldn’t say anything one way or the other about him being all-knowing or all-powerful.

    And lastly, I’m happy that you at least admitted above that there was a time when Jesus didn’t exist by saying WHEN He begot His only Son”.

    #872807
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Jesus is the MESSIAH,  he came first to deliver us from our sins,  Next time as the ruler of this whole world.

    Those Jew’s are misguiding you brother,  they murdered him then,  and what would make you think, they know what they are saying NOW?  Have you now joined the enemies  of our lord , Jesus Christ, and Almighty God who sent him, and will send him again are you going to be with them who weep for all the wickedness they did to him?  ADAM YOU WERE ON TRACK , WHAT HAPPENED BROTHER?

    Hello brother Gene, thanks for your post to me. We are debating here on the Messiahship of Jesus. In fact there are no two comings of Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Vicarious Atonement of Jesus is another myth. In fact human sacrifice is abomination to Yahweh.

    I am not misguided by anyone and in fact I am on search for true religion of the Hebrew Bible. You can not win your arguments on human Jesus here as the NT is full of mythologies on Jesus stating that he was preexisting as a spirit being or a god as often argued by Mike, Proclaimer and others on this Forum. He is even called as God by the writer of the Fourth Gospel by putting such words in the mouth of doubting Thomas. The list goes on.

    Please read the NT in the light of Hebrew Bible you will understand the deviations of Christianity from its original religion.

    Thanks and peace to you…Adam

    #872808
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Berean, is Jesus the one Most High God of gods – or someone other than the one Most High God of gods?

    Me

    I have already answered you many times on this. reread 1 Corinthians 8: 6 and you will have the answer.😐

Viewing 20 posts - 22,921 through 22,940 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account