John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,961 through 22,980 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872836
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    This is not correct. The Bible does not teach this.

    It is more accurate to say that God has divine nature than divine nature is God.

    We can inherit divine nature. So when we have divine nature, then are we God? No. It means that we have divine nature the same nature as God and that we are Sons.

    Thus God is a person. An identity. His nature is not what defines him as God. Once again, this confusion would not exist if people understood the difference between identity and nature. So much confusion here it amazes me because it is not a hard concept to grasp at all. I wonder what blocks people’s minds to understanding simple truths.

    Anyway. God is a Spirit right? Is it then correct to say that spirit / spirits are God? No, because angels are spirit beings. They are spirits.

    Likewise, if the Son is divine, then that does not mean that he is eternal like God is eternal. It doesn’t make the Son the same age (so to speak) as the Father.

    There are different kinds of infinities in mathematics. One infinity is eternal forward and backward. Future and past. When we inherit eternal life, then we will also be eternal. But not in the same sense as God. Jesus on the other hand is before all things. He is the oldest. In fact, he was the first to be with God. But he is not God himself.

    You can make an analogy with Eve. She is the oldest human to be born human. She came from Adam. But Adam came directly from God. He is the Son of God too in that respect.

    #872842
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hello brother Gene, thanks for your post to me. We are debating here on the Messiahship of Jesus. In fact there are no two comings of Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Vicarious Atonement of Jesus is another myth. In fact human sacrifice is abomination to Yahweh.

    I am not misguided by anyone and in fact I am on search for true religion of the Hebrew Bible. You can not win your arguments on human Jesus here as the NT is full of mythologies on Jesus stating that he was preexisting as a spirit being or a god as often argued by Mike, Proclaimer and others on this Forum. He is even called as God by the writer of the Fourth Gospel by putting such words in the mouth of doubting Thomas. The list goes on.

    The fourth gospel says that the Word was divine. There is no definite article in the last mention of theos.

    As for the New Testament that you say is myth, well ask yourself (not us) does the Old Testament say that it is the complete revelation and plan of God? It doesn’t. In fact, each book was written at a different time. There is no THE END in the last book.

    What the Old Testament does is introduce The Law and the Prophets and it never mentions anywhere that there will be no more prophets does it?

    Let’s address prophecies first. They are things that will happen in the future which the Old Testament cannot record, simply because it was already written. So logically speaking, when prophecies come to pass, then it seems that more writings are necessary to talk about this, frame it in the context, and perhaps introduce more prophecy for the future that is yet to happen. Your view for some unknown reason is that this is never allowed to happen. Why not?

    Now for The Law. It teaches us about sin and it actually ends up condemning us because you, me, and everyone else has sin in their life. This is not a good place to leave people. Once the concept is understood and obeyed, what we need after that is a plan by which to deal with sin that we have committed which is condemned. Enter Grace. Jesus Christ a prophet was sent by God to give and teach grace to mankind. All mankind, past, present, and future benefits from this and the accompanying work to follow. But since you have rejected the prophet Jesus and God’s grace, then what plan do you have to deal with the sins you have committed and that you struggle with?

    You have no plan. And because you do not believe a plan is forthcoming, then you are condemned by the very book you believe is the full truth?

    #872843
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    You wrote:

    This is not correct. The Bible does not teach this.

    LU:Yes it does teach that. For starters, the Bible teaches that the Son is the Firstborn of the God He calls “Father.” Col 1:15

    The Bible also teaches that the Son is the exact representation of the Father’s nature. Heb 1

    The Bible also teaches that the Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the work of the Son’s hands. Heb 1

    The Bible also teaches that there is one God and one Lord and that YHVH is both God and Lord. 1 Cor 8:6, Deut 10:17.

    The Bible also teaches that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD (YHVH). Phil 2:10-11

    Proclaimer:It is more accurate to say that God has divine nature than divine nature is God.

    LU:Who said divine nature is God?

    Proclaimer: We can inherit divine nature. So when we have divine nature, then are we God? No. It means that we have divine nature the same nature as God and that we are Sons.

    LU: The Bible does not say that we “inherit” divine nature. We will share in divine nature meaning we will put on the righteousness of Christ and change from being corruptible to incorruptible.

    Proclaimer: Thus God is a person. An identity. His nature is not what defines him as God. Once again, this confusion would not exist if people understood the difference between identity and nature. So much confusion here it amazes me because it is not a hard concept to grasp at all. I wonder what blocks people’s minds to understanding simple truths.

    LU:God is a person with another person who is the Lord. They are together YHVH and each identified as YHVH.

    Proclaimer: Anyway. God is a Spirit right?

    LU: God is spirit, not “a” spirit, but He has a spirit.

    Proclaimer: Is it then correct to say that spirit / spirits are God? No, because angels are spirit beings. They are spirits.

    LU:Not applicable since God is spirit, not a spirit.

    Proclaimer: Likewise, if the Son is divine, then that does not mean that he is eternal like God is eternal. It doesn’t make the Son the same age (so to speak) as the Father.

    LU: If something is said to be divine, you are correct, that does not mean that it is eternal like God is eternal. The Son is eternal because He is the exact representation of God’s divine nature and that divine nature is eternal.

    Proclaimer: There are different kinds of infinities in mathematics. One infinity is eternal forward and backward. Future and past. When we inherit eternal life, then we will also be eternal. But not in the same sense as God. Jesus on the other hand is before all things. He is the oldest. In fact, he was the first to be with God. But he is not God himself.

    LU: I’d rephrase that as Jesus is the only Begotten God, not the unbegotten God himself. The Eternal One with eternal essence took from His eternal essence and gave eternal essence to reproduce another One to contain the eternal essence. Resulting in two with eternal essence, a father and a son. The Eternal One gave of Himself to become a father with a son. It wasn’t until the Eternal One gave the eternal essence of Himself that the Eternal One became a father and not only a father but a father with a son.

    So either there was a time when:

    the Eternal One was not yet a father with a son.

    OR there was not a time when the Eternal One was not yet a father with a son. i.e the son always existed in some manner.

    Either way, the essence is eternal in both the Father and the Son. Therefore, the Father and the Son are both eternal in essence. The essence in both has always existed. Their essence is identical in age.

    Proclaimer: You can make an analogy with Eve. She is the oldest human to be born human. She came from Adam. But Adam came directly from God. He is the Son of God too in that respect.

    Eve wasn’t born. Adam came directly from dirt. The dirt came from God. God made Adam out of the dirt. Adam was not made out of eternal essence. Dirt was not eternal, it was created. There was a time when dirt was not.

    I hope that helps.

    #872844
    gadam123
    Participant

    The fourth gospel says that the Word was divine. There is no definite article in the last mention of theos.

    As for the New Testament that you say is myth, well ask yourself (not us) does the Old Testament say that it is the complete revelation and plan of God? It doesn’t. In fact, each book was written at a different time. There is no THE END in the last book.

    Hello Proclaimer, thanks for your post to me. In fact I am not interested in your logics on whether Word was divine or the divine as it was created by the writer of the Fourth Gospel to insert man Jesus into divine duo.

    #872845
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Then why mention it. To score points probably. But you get zero points with your post because the evidence you supplied is faulty. Have another go. Keep it factual if you can and we all might learn something. Thanks in advance.

    #872846
    gadam123
    Participant

    Then why mention it. To score points probably. But you get zero points with your post because the evidence you supplied is faulty. Have another go. Keep it factual if you can and we all might learn something. Thanks in advance.

    Hi Proclaimer, sorry it’s not I who mentioned about the Word. Please refer my post to Gene which you  have replied.

    Hello brother Gene, thanks for your post to me. We are debating here on the Messiahship of Jesus. In fact there are no two comings of Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Vicarious Atonement of Jesus is another myth. In fact human sacrifice is abomination to Yahweh.

    I am not misguided by anyone and in fact I am on search for true religion of the Hebrew Bible. You can not win your arguments on human Jesus here as the NT is full of mythologies on Jesus stating that he was preexisting as a spirit being or a god as often argued by Mike, Proclaimer and others on this Forum. He is even called as God by the writer of the Fourth Gospel by putting such words in the mouth of doubting Thomas. The list goes on.

    Again coming to your logics on how Hebrew Bible is not sufficient for a legal religion;

    It is the imagination of Christianity that Hebrew Bible is incomplete without the NT. You can find every thing in it what a religion preaches and needs for human spirituality. I don’t think it is incomplete. In fact Christianity needed OT for it’s new religion to make it authoritative. Christian concept of Vicarious Atonement for sins of mankind is another myth as the human sacrifice is an abomination to Yahweh.

     

    #872848
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    The eternity of God or God has always existed and therefore its nature

     

    Psalm 90: 2
    Before the mountains were produced, or before you formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

     

    Psalm 93: 2
    Your throne has been established since ancient times; You exist from all eternity.

    Psalm 55:19
    God will hear and humble them, He who sits on his throne from all eternity; -Pause. For there is no change in them, neither do they fear God.

    #872849
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    Jesus IS “the brightness of the glory of the Father, and the express image of HIS person, … (Hebrews 1: 3)

    person

    5287
    hupostasis
    hoop-os’-tas-is

    from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance.

    ESSENCE, PERSON, SUBSTANCE = DIVINE NATURE

    BUT DIVINE NATURE IS ALSO HIS SPIRITUAL CHARACTER: HIS GOODNESS, FAITHFULNESS, LOVE, …. WHAT WE MUST PARTICIPATE IN AS THE APOSTLE PETER RECOMMENDS. (2 Peter 1: 4)

    #872850
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    Thank you for your good post and God bless you.

     

    #872851
    gadam123
    Participant

    Ezekiel 37:25… They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.

    Adam, is your coming messiah, who will be a regular old human being in every possible way, going to live forever?

    Hi Mike, thanks for your reply to my post. The verse you quoted from Ezekiel 37 states that God’s servant David will be the prince of restored kingdom of Judah and Israel.

    Here Ezekiel prophesies that David would be their shepherd and king. Now, David was long dead when they returned from the first exile. So, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled then if Ezekiel was referring to the David in Israel’s history. He would have to be referring to another David who would yet come. Who then was that David and had he come when that first restoration from exile took place? We read in Ezekiel 34:23-24 – “I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken.” Again, we read in Ezekiel 37:24–25 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.” This David could only be referring to the Messiah who would yet come and not to the historical David who had already died. David was a type of the Messiah who would come in the future. When the people of Israel came back to their homeland under Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubbabel, the Messiah had not yet come, but He would come to their descendants in the future.

    Yes he will not be an old man as you rightly pointed out but he will certainly be a warrior prince. It will be an end time Messianic kingdom where the Israelites will live there forever with their children and grandchildren and David will be their prince forever. I think this is possible with resurrection beliefs in the Hebrew religion. It may even be possible that the original David himself will be the Prince as mentioned in Ezek 37:25 as there will be resurrection of the dead in future.

    Hope this will answer your query.

    #872852
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God has divine nature, but many doctrines argue that divine nature has God

    Here is a difference between identity and nature.

    You can change your nature, but you are still you.

    If nature defines God, then when you participate in divine nature, then you are God.

    Let’s look at another example.

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    Are you then saying that the Word that was divine and became flesh which is Jesus Christ, is not the Word that was with God, but two different persons? The Word and Jesus Christ?

    Because having divine nature and emptying oneself and coming in the flesh doesn’t mean we are talking about two persons.

    Do you understand the logic that many here follow? An identity can change nature and remain the same identity.

    God is defined as an Identity. ‘The God’ doesn’t mean nature / divinity. Jesus is not God because he is not the God of the universe.

    God has divine nature, but many argue that divine nature has God.

    #872859
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I should add this.

    Many think God is a nature or substance. So all who have that nature are God.

    But God is a HIM and HE. A committee of persons with divine nature are not God and would certainly not be addressed as HE or HIM.

    Here is the truth.

    God is the Father. Jesus is his Son. We are the Sons of God. Jesus calls us brethren. God calls us children.

    Jesus is not God, he is one of us or more accurately, we are one of him. He is a Son of God, in fact The Son of God.

    Our God is the God of Jesus Christ too.

    This is the truth and it is written.

    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    #872862
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    You are wrong

    The bible Say  That the son OF God IS “THEOS “AND THAT THE FATHER IS “THE THEOS” (JOHN 1)

    The Son IS “THEOS” BECAUSE HE IS THE OWN SON OF GOD( THE THEOS)

     

    WHO IS THE GOD IN PERSONALITY?

    ANSWER:THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST.

    GOD THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND HE IS GOD IN NATURE.

    JESUS CHRIST IS THE OWN SON OF GOD AND HE IS GOD IN INFINITY(IN ESSENCE) BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY

     

    #872863
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……The bible says,   “But unto us (true believers) there is but “ONE” GOD, and “ONE”  MEDIATOR,  between men and God,  the “MAN” Jesus Christ.

     

    You say Jesus is a God,  but God said in Isiah he look for another God and found NONE. He also said , “HE ALONE WAS GOD AND THERE WAS NO OTHER GOD.” SCRIPTURE, ALSO Says,  “for God is “NOT” a man, that he should lie, nor A “SON OF MAN”that he should repent”.  JESUS SAID HE WAS A SON OF MAM OVER 80 TIMES. 

    AND Jesus also said ,  who you say you believe in, this, ……. “This is eternal life, that they might know ‘YOU” Father,  THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD”….., and Jesus Christ who you have sent. ” 

    Berean tell us exactly what part of those scriptures you do not believe, it looks like you believe none of them. So why call Jesus your lord and do not believe what he and scriptures both say?

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

    #872864
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……… God is Spirit and he is Devine nature,  he can “indwell”  us and then we become partakers of that Devine nature also,  but as you said , none of that makes us a God,  the same applies to Jesus .

    “Now if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the Grave be dwell in you , he who raised Christ Jesus from the grave will also quicken your mortal “BODY”, by the Spirit that dwells “in” you.

    The same thing that happened to Jesus Christ will happen to those the have that “Devine” SPIRIT “IN” them also. Having that Devine Spirit “in” us makes us partakers of God the fathers Devine nature.  Exactly the same as Jesus , but as you said none of that makes us GODS, nor did it make Jesus a God either.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    #872865
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, sorry it’s not I who mentioned about the Word. Please refer my post to Gene which you  have replied.

    Fair enough gadam. But I will say that you make the argument here that the New Testament is inconsistent in that it teaches he is God then a man etc.

    In actual fact the New Testament is consistent whether it is true or not. Here is the main narrative wrapped up in a few verses. The rest of the New Testament concurs with this. It is very consistent . What has got in the way for many is millenia of traditions mostly started by powerful misguided men. Once you block tradition out and read the New Testament for what it says, then it is very clear and consistent.

    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in very nature God,
        did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
        by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
        he humbled himself
        by becoming obedient to death—
            even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
        and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
        in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
        to the glory of God the Father.

    Of course for you,this is the myth. That God paid the highest price for our souls by paying the debt of sin which is death by sending his best. His only begotten Son. The first to be with him

     

    #872866
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @berean

    Proclaimer
    You are wrong
    The bible Say  That the son OF God IS “THEOS “AND THAT THE FATHER IS “THE THEOS” (JOHN 1)

    Using that measuring stick, then angels and men are also God. Theos without the definite article just like John 1:1c means a qualitative interpretation rather than a literal one  identifying a person.

    Theos

    1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    3) spoken of the only and true God
    3a) refers to the things of God
    3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
    4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
    4a) God’s representative or viceregent
    4a1) of magistrates and judges

    Now look at all the persons who are God according to your understanding if you were to be consistent.

    Father

    Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

    Jesus / Word

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

    Men / Judges

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’

    Angels

    All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

    Earthquake

    And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great (elohim) trembling.

    Both elohim and theos are used in qualitative ways. You cannot take every instance of theos or elohim and say they are always God. Even idols are called elohim and theos. It is like the difference between being the Most High and having a high position of authority. The latter doesn’t make you the Most High.

    #872867
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You are very nice, but I think there is no point in trying to convince myself of something that I do not believe.
    The bible teaches that the Son of God, named by John: “THE WORD” was God (Theos) in the beginning (John1: 1) and that he was made flesh (v.14) This is what I believe .

    #872868
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    I think you meant this comment for me:

    Proclaimer: But God is a HIM and HE. A committee of persons with divine nature are not God and would certainly not be addressed as HE or HIM.

    LU:Then Israel is not a collective noun because God refers to Israel with the singular pronouns of him and he and the singular noun firstborn son.

    Then Jesus is not being truthful when He says that “the Father and I are One?”

    Btw, may I ask a favor…when you respond to my post in the future, would you mind giving me the common courtesy of addressing me so that I don’t have to read every post of yours to others in order to find your response to me?

    Thanks!

    #872869
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    And the Word WAS “THEOS”

    The context, you admit it means “DIVINE”
    Now, HEBREWS 1: 3, HOW ARE YOU INTERPRETING?

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

    DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS ACCORDING TO HEBREWS 1 EXCEPT THE SON OF GOD?

    THE BRIGTNESS OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON (ESSENCE)

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