John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,901 through 22,920 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872760
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Being found in fashion  as a “man” ,why?,   was because he was a “MAN”.

    “but unto us ( the saved) , there is but “ONE GOD”   and  ONE MEDIATOR , between GOD and men, “the “MAN”  Jesus Christ. ”

    YOU either believe that or not, just that simple .

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #872761
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You are only quoting the verses partially ….

    it is written:

    Who, being in the form of God,

    thought it was not stealing to be equal with God:

    [7] But he made himself without reputation,

    and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the image of men:

    [8] And being found fashionable as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 

     

    took UPON HIM(His divine form) the form of a servant

    #872762
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Word was divine. Real clear. How can you deny it? Simple. Reject Jesus Christ is the Word. But rejecting scripture is not a great idea.

    #872763
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,
    If Jesus was given the Word of God, then he cannot be that word.
    When are you going to get that?

    Good to see you chastising Jodi, but for this point I think you are wrong.

    Ed J, When are you going to get that your name can be reflective of your attributes?

    For example, Jesus changed people’s names to reflect that which they were would become.

    He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter); James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges, that is, Sons of Thunder)…

    Upon Jesus Christ’s return, his name is The Word of God. And we read that the Word that was WITH God became flesh. Hello! Are you paying attention to scripture?

    We know that he was with God in the beginning and came here in the flesh, and is now with the Father in the glory he had before the cosmos.

    You say that he is not the Word of God because he speaks the words of God, but it is the other way around. He is the Word of God because he speaks the words of God. He is the expression of God. The visible image of the invisible God.

    People get so confused about identities vs nature. I am amazed by that because it is not a hard concept to grasp. Even a kid can grasp it. There is obviously something getting in the way that blinds men from this truth and other truths.

    #872764
    gadam123
    Participant

    You say that he is not the Word of God because he speaks the words of God, but it is the other way around. He is the Word of God because he speaks the words of God. He is the expression of God. The visible image of the invisible God.

    People get so confused about identities vs nature. I am amazed by that because it is not a hard concept to grasp. Even a kid can grasp it. There is obviously something getting in the way that blinds men from this truth and other truths.

    Hello Proclaimer, if it is so easy why there is no end to such debates on Jesus?

    I also wonder why the NT and Christianity made the impersonal word of God of the Hebrew Bible into an ontological spirit being or a god who was preexisting with one God in the beginning? Is it not a mythology? Is it not a polytheism and an idolatry?

    #872765
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    He is the God of the living not the dead.

    God has all the attributes. He creates beings to reflect his nature.

    In the case of Christ, he has the fullness of the deity in him.

    He is the first.

    God is eternal.

    Someone was first.

    The first to be with God is not God, but most like God because he was begotten from him directly.

    Whereas, no one else can claim that.

    #872766
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hello Proclaimer, if it is so easy why there is no end to such debates on Jesus?

    There is an adversary who commands many beings to fight against God.

    Humans are easy targets, but God has made it possible for us to overcome.

    Choose your side.

    #872769
    gadam123
    Participant

    The first to be with God is not God, but most like God because he was begotten from him directly.

    Whereas, no one else can claim that.

    This is the greatest mythology of Christianity stating that God literally begets some one or something. Sorry I can’t find this myth in the whole of Hebrew Bible.

    #872770
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Myth?

    Then you cannot believe in God then.

    And you deny the most basic of logic.

    Wind the clock back.

    You are alive and so are your parents and their parents.

    But eventually you will go so far back that you will have to arrive at the first life.

    Where did that first life come from?

    Nothing? If so, then death created life.

    If it came from life, then there had to be an eternal life.

    Wake up gadam. How long have you been alive? And you haven’t thought about that truth?

    And so it is written in the New Testament and you think this fact is myth?

    You deny basic logic because you don’t like the New Testament.

    Your loss.

    #872776
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……God’s word is certainly Devine, no matter who quotes them,  but turning “the man Jesus ”  into a God is a Lie , and that is exactly what fallen Christianity has done.

    Look the very reason the apostasy took place over 1700 years ago, was because of the false teachings of The TRINITY DOCTRINE,  and that DOCTRINE turns  the “MAN” Jesus Christ into a GOD.  He is the “ONLY” “MAN”  who “IS” sitting in the true TEMPLE OF GOD , and is being displayed  and worshiped as a God.

    This “LIE”  , about Jesus must be revealed, to all Christianity , before Jesus returns, according to what Paul wrote,  “BEFORE” Jesus returns.  So many can have a chance to repent, from committing Idolatry .

    The complete false teachings of turning Jesus from a human being,  into something else must be exposed to the Churches, “BEFORE HIS RETURN”  according to 2ths2 . So people born into that LIE may have a chance to repent, by hearing the truth about those false teachings, of the TRINITY DOCTRINE,   You are in a unique position to further that whole process along .

    I believe God the Father will bring many here to this site, to hear this end time message and make it possible for them to escape that bond of inequity they are in.

    But it is essential you yourself come to see that Jesus is and was always a human being , not a being “morphed” into a human body”  my hope and prayer is that God will grant you the power  to see that truth brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

    #872777
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….. First of all you need to understand what it means to be in the “form” of God,  can you explain that to us?  Next is what time was that talking about , I believe it was talking about when he was on this earth,  Then the passage address the idea that Jesus did not think to “rob” God to try to make himself “equal” to him.    It is not say that he was ever was  equal with God ever.

    Jesus was in a unique position , because of all the Miracles God was doing through him , he could have acted as if he was the one doing those miracles himself,  giving the appearance of himself being  God or equal with him. But he gave all the Glory to God the Father.

    There is an example of that in scripture,  it was when Jesus told Mary about he brother Lazarus , that I’d she only believed she would see the Glory of God,  that if left alone could have portrayed Jesus as God, because it was Jesus who was going to call Lazarus to come forth , so she could assumed by what Jesus had said to her before he did it that he was the God doing it,  but notice Jesus’ words immediately after he said that to her , his very nets Word were , “Father I only said that , that they might believe you sent me. Get it , he was making sure that the Father didn’t think he was trying to steal Glory from him.

    remember Moses screwed up with that at the Waters of Meriba and was prevented from going into the promise land as a result.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #872778
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Because Christ is the OWN SON OF GOD, HE IS GOD. 

    That’s like saying that because you are the son of Joe, you ARE Joe.  And what’s more, you even identify this son as “Christ”.  Do you know what a christ is, Berean?  There are many christs in the Bible.  They are those who are anointed (ie: set aside for a specific purpose) by God.  None of them, including Jesus, are the very God who anointed them.

    The fact that God anointed Jesus prohibits Jesus from being the God who anointed him.

    #872779
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: Well put. That is exactly how I feel too.

    Is Berean a Trinitarian?

    I believe he is on the same path as Kathi – who came here as a Trinitarian, but was then forced to abandon that unscriptural idea and come up with her own “Jesus is God” doctrines.

    #872780
    gadam123
    Participant

    Wake up gadam. How long have you been alive? And you haven’t thought about that truth?

    And so it is written in the New Testament and you think this fact is myth?

    You deny basic logic because you don’t like the New Testament.

    Your loss.

    Hi Proclaimer, what is the truth? The NT was written as  polemics against Jewish people in time of those writers and they are much oriented towards Gentile Hellenistic Christianity. Please read the Hebrew Bible with open mind and you will notice the differences between two books.

    #872781
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  So what is [below the waters that are beneath the earth] then? A brick wall? What is beyond the brick wall?

    As I’ve repeatedly said, we are not told that information in scripture, so I don’t know.  I only know that there are waters above the firmament and below the earth – and that God, Jesus, and 24 elders rule from thrones that are in heaven above us (presumably all of us and not just the people who happen to be on the right side of a ball).

    I could ask you what’s beyond the extent of the vast universe that you believe in, right?  I could suggest it was a brick wall, and then ask what’s beyond that brick wall, right?  Would your inability to know such things reflect negatively on your worldview?  If not, then why would you keep asking this line of questioning to me as if it affects anything?

    Scriptures say that the earth was formed out of water (Gen 1:2; 2 Peter 3:5), right?  Those scriptures clearly contradict your worldview, but we could still ask the question: What, if anything, was there before God created the water from which the earth was formed?  What holds that water in place?  A brick wall?

    And again, the answer is that we’re not given that information, so we don’t know.  We only know that the earth is stationary with a hard, bronze-like dome over it that separates the waters above from the waters below, and in which the sun, moon, and stars run circuits over us like a celestial clock, by which we can determine days, weeks, months, and seasons.  Oh, and that God rules from His throne which is in one place that is above all of us at the same time.

    #872782
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD THE FATHER AND IN ONLY LORD JESUS CHRIST. AMEN

    That is 100% scriptural – in reference to the hierarchy, ie: God is above Jesus, and Jesus is above us.  It is not meant to be a literal all-encompassing statement meaning there is literally only one god and literally only one lord.  In fact, the statement in 1 Cor 8 begins with the literal truth that there are indeed many gods and many lords.

    So Jesus is indeed a god, and YHWH is indeed a lord.  The statement is meant to show hierarchy, just like this statement…

    1 Cor 11:3… But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    The above doesn’t mean that God is NOT the head of man because ONLY Christ is, nor does it mean that Christ is NOT the head of women because ONLY man is.  It is meant to show the hierarchy of power:  God, then Christ, then man, then woman.

    And it doesn’t include every class either.  If it did, we’d see God, then Jesus, then the 12 who rule at Jesus’ side, then the kings appointed to rule over the earth by those heavenly rulers, then the princes, then the local lords, then the generals of thousands, then the captains of hundreds, then the lieutenants of fiftys, then the sergeants of tens, then the civilian men, then the women, then the male servants, then the female servants, then the children, then the dogs, etc, etc, etc.

    So as long as you understand that the statement, “for us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ” is a hierarchy naming God as greater than Jesus and Jesus as greater than us, you have my AMEN.

    #872783
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  The way I look at it is that

    JESUS DIDN’T SAY OR MEANT THAT HE IS NOT GOD, IN FACT, HE CONFIRMED THAT

    WITHOUT BELIEVING IN HIM, ALL HEARTS ARE IN TROUBLE CONCERNING GOD!

    Then with all due respect, you are looking at it wrong.  Jesus clearly identified himself as someone other than God, and you clearly disagree with your Lord.

    Carmel:  GOD WITHOUT JESUS IS NOT GOD AT ALL Mr. Mike!

    Nonsense.  We no longer have a direct path to God (like Moses did), because God has placed Jesus as the mediator between man and God – but even without Jesus, God would still exist and be our Creator.  Carmel, what is a mediator?  Can a mediator between Person A and Person B actually be either Person A or Person B?  No.  A mediator is neither of the parties he mediates between.  Jesus is neither God nor mankind – but the one who mediates between those two parties.

    I’m still waiting for you to answer these questions:

    Did God do signs and wonders through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    Has God done signs and wonders through His other servants throughout history?  Yes or No?

    Can God do even greater signs and wonders through us if He chooses to?  Yes or No?

    #872784
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Christianity created mythologies on human Messiah.

    Prove it, Adam.  Provide absolute irrefutable PROOF that Jesus was not existing in the form of a god, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being, who dwelt on earth for 30 years and then ascended back into heaven.

    If you cannot PROVE these statements you repeatedly make, then how do you expect any of us to consider your words as anything other than the annoying and incoherent drip, drip, drip of a leaky faucet?

    Give us something of value by which we can take you seriously… because so far, your claim to fame is that the coming messiah can be absolutely anyone who is born at any given time on earth by any regular human woman in the normal fashion that all humans are born – and that this is somehow a sign that God gave us thousands of years ago.

    Not very convincing.

    #872785
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  In the beginning, the Son of God is of the same divine nature as God his Father: omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient…

    Why on earth would you repeat a statement that I’ve already shown you to be erroneous?

    Is Jesus omnipotent?  “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Is Jesus omniscient?  “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt 24:36)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Is Jesus omnipresent?  “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” (John 16:28)  Scriptural answer:  NO.

    Please don’t continue to make claims that you already know are unscriptural.

    #872786
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: adam = human being (among others)
    Eve = human being = adam

    THE Adam = human being = adam

    Eve = human being = adam – but not THE Adam

     

    THE God = spirit being = god

    Jesus = spirit being = god – but not THE God

     

    It’s all about the “THE”, Berean.  As John told us, the logos was with THE God in the beginning, and was also god (but not THE God whom he was with)

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