John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,841 through 22,860 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872672
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Do you possess some sort of non-human reasoning capabilities of which we are not aware?

     

    Carmel: AND HOW! ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO DISCUSS THE TRUTH OF JESUS OF WHICH IT’S NOTHING FROM ME. IT WAS AND IS GIVEN TO ME AS I ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED, OF WHICH YOU ALSO COULD RECEIVE IF YOU SIMPLY ASK AND NOT RELY ON WORLDLY WISDOM WHICH IS NOT OF GOD…

    How can I know for sure that you were given spiritual knowledge from above that surpasses your (an my) human reasoning?  I can’t very well just take your word for it, since I can’t verify such a thing, right?  Just like you wouldn’t be able to just take my word for it if I told you that the things I’m trying to show you came via revelation from God, right?  So what do we do?  Fortunately, there is an app for that…

    1 John 4:1… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Carmel, did you test the spirits that you say gave you what you requested?  What did you test them against?

    #872673
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Fyi, John 16:28 doesn’t have ego eimi (I am) in it so you are not comparing apples to apples when you compare to the I am of John 8:58.

    Are you being disingenuous here?  I know you to be very intelligent, and therefore know that you know that the point I made to Berean stands as irrefutable despite your semantics games.  But just in case you are bringing up a point that you seriously think changes anything, let me explain why it doesn’t.

    If the Greek said, “I am come into the world”, we’d say in English, “I have come into the world”.

    If the Greek said, “I enter the world”, we’d say, “I entered the world”.

    If the Greek said, “I proceed forth into the world”, we’d say, “I proceeded forth into the world”.

    If the Greek said, “I am descended to the world”, we’d say, “I have descended to the world”.

    And so on and so forth.

    Your point seems to be that one verse says “I enter the world” and the other verse says “I come into the world”, therefore we should use the English past tense on one of them, but leave it present tense on the other.

    My point is that the Greek language OFTEN puts many phrases in the present tense that English speakers would say as past tense.  We don’t say, “I am come” or “I am been with you”.  So English translations generally change these Greek presents to “I have come” or “I have been with you”, etc.  But when it comes to John 8:58, most English translators DON’T change “I am before Abraham came into existence” to “I have been before Abraham came into existence”.

    Now, you have no choice but to agree with everything I just said in that last paragraph, because it is irrefutable, and the truth of the matter is easily searched out.  Here’s where we disagree…

    You, like Trinitarian translators of English Bibles, have a personal reason to NOT change the tense in John 8:58 – because you WANT to read into Jesus’ words (the most common pronoun-verb phrase in any language) some mystical proclamation from Jesus that he was Yahweh.  I, on the other hand, have no such personal reason to NOT adjust the Greek tense to a sensible English tense (like we do every other time), because I’m okay just letting the scriptures teach me.

    For the benefit of people like you, I will restate for the record that even if you left the present Greek tense as is, so that Jesus said the phrase “I am” – it would still not equate to Jesus claiming to BE “the great I AM”.

    Firstly, we don’t even know that “I AM” is the correct meaning of YHWH – since it is simply the verb “to be”.  And secondly, Jesus simply saying the phrase “I am” would never mean “I am I AM”.  Understand?

    For it to be like you want it to be, 8:58 would have to say, “Before Abraham even came into existence, I was I AM” (“I was Yahweh”).  He couldn’t just say, “Before Abraham came into existence, Yahweh!”  What would that even mean?  What about Yahweh?

    And so to get a proclamation from Jesus about having existed as Yahweh before Abraham came into existence, Jesus would have had to say, “I am I am”.  And ironically, to have it make sense in English, we’d have to change the Greek present tense of the first phrase the the English past tense: I was I am.  😁

     

    #872674
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: ...but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.

    Where can I read this in scripture?

    #872675
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  A father begins to be a father at the moment his son begins to be a son. In regards to God, his essence was eternal and became both father and son at the same instant.

    Where can I read this in scripture?

    #872676
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  Mike, JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE HIGHEST, HIGHER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY…

     

    Mike: Nonsense.  None could be higher than the Most High God of gods.

     

    Carmel:  SO ACCORDING TO YOU, I AM TELLING A LIE NO? AND IF I AM TELLING A LIE I AM A LIAR. NO?

    Absolutely not according to me.  According to Proclaimer, yes… but not according to me.  I happen to know that a lie is a case of someone INTENTIONALLY claiming something that he already KNOWS is false for the sole purpose of DECEIVING someone else.  I don’t think you are lying about any of the nonsensical stuff you post.  I think you truly believe this crap, and are telling the truth from your own understanding.  I know it to be INACCURATE, but being mistaken or saying something that is inaccurate is NOT telling a lie.

    I was making use of one of your posts to try and teach that to Proclaimer, because he is confused on the subject.

     

    #872677
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Absolutely not according to me.  According to Proclaimer, yes… but not according to me.

    I’ll say it as it is. This is a lie. How ironic.

    #872678
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    LU:  A father begins to be a father at the moment his son begins to be a son. In regards to God, his essence was eternal and became both father and son at the same instant.

    This is either a lie or is true, but not written. It must be a lie because there are scriptures that contradict such an idea.

    #872679
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean: …but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.

    So the Father could have died for our sins then?

    #872681
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    You

    Berean: …but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.
    Where can I read this in scripture?

     

    Me

    I have often quoted you from Hebrews 1: 3 but you do not pay attention to it.

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person.

    There are also Colossians 1:15

    cited in my last post

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    And to say that THE SON OF GOD IS HIS OWN SON, there are Romans 8: 3

    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

     

    #872683
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    Berean: …but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.
    So the Father could have died for our sins then?

    Me

    MY answer IS NO

    #872686
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But if they are equal, why not.

    Because if God died there would be nothing.

    But if the Son of God died, then that is a worthy sacrifice for all people.

    He wasn’t sacrificed because he is God’s equal.

    But he is greater than all mankind.

    #872690
    Berean
    Participant

    He wasn’t sacrificed because he is God’s equal. 

    Me

    Because His love for us.

    He couldn’t have sacrificed Himself if He had been a creature … but He’s not a creature; He IS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD.
    THE REFLECTION OF HIS GLORY AND THE EXACT FOOTPRINT OF THE PERSON OF GOD THE FATHER.

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,  

    …..

    #872691
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..ARENT WE ASLO,  made in the “IMAGE OF GOD”? ,  “FOR IN THE “IMAGE” OF GOD made He them, male and female  made he them”.  I guess you really don’t believe that right?

    Jesus had to be a 100% human being , or he could not have  qualified , to pay the price for our sins.  ‘For by man sin came, and therefore, by man it had to be atoned for. God is just, why would he take a prefect “PREEXISTING”  existing “being”, who already never had sinned  and take away his life and morph him into a human womb, and make him be the sacrifice for our sins.

    First of all that would be an injustice to that person, Jesus, because God said to mankind, it would the sinner that died, and go back to dust from which he came. another thing, it  would be a deception on the part of God to do it that way.   It would never prove a real human being could walk perfectly, because the person would be a preexist being of some kind and would already have developed the way to live , which would give him a huge advantage over us . What would that have to do with the human race?  WHAT would that prove to us?

    Jesus had to be a 100% pure human “exactly’” as we are , to even qualify to pay our sin debt. He could not have been anything else . He HAD TO COME INTO HIS “ONLY” TRUE EXISTENCE EXACTLY AS WE DID.

    As a real human being who started his one and “ONLY” life, exactly as we do. No smoke and mirrors stuff  as you people FALSELY preach.  JESUS was  a flesh and bone human being when he left this earth and will return back, as a flesh and bone “human” being again. No matter how much Power and Glory He now has , he will always be a human being , just like all his brothers and sisters in this world and the world to come.

    No one is going to change God the Father’s plan for all “HUMANITY”  ever,  not in this life or the life to come.  IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #872692
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Who, being in the form of God,

    thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    #872693
    Berean
    Participant

    PHILLIPIANS 2

    👉FORM OF GOD

    👇

    FORM OF A HUMAN SERVANT

    #872694
    gadam123
    Participant

    Gene

    Who, being in the form of God,
    THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:
    [7] BUT MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:
    [8] AND BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, HE HUMBLED HIMSELF, AND BECAME OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH, EVEN THE DEATH OF THE CROSS.

    Where from these writers of the NT got such mythological concepts on the human Messiah recorded in the Hebrew Bible? The preexistence of the Messiah is something foreign to the Hebrew Bible and is purely the creation of the NT writers and Christianity.

    #872695
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam 

    NO , THIS IS THE PURE TRUTH FROM GOD.

     

    #872696
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: How can I know for sure that you were given spiritual knowledge from above that surpasses your (an my) human reasoning?  I can’t very well just take your word for it, since I can’t verify such a thing, right? 

     

    ME: Excellent Mike!

    Let’s analyze your human reasoning, and your own words would assert the truth without your awareness of it.

    YOU: How can I know for sure that you were given spiritual knowledge from above….

    I can’t very well just take your word for it, since I can’t verify such a thing, right? 

    ME: WRONG! THOUGH I HAVE TO EXPLAIN USING MY HUMAN REASONING!

    Thus from here, we know that we haven’t got the same human reasoning, or more accurate:

    THE SAME SPIRIT!  I AM SURE OF IT SINCE WE ARE NOT IN HARMONY! NO.

    We as humans throughout our life are mingled with TWO SPIRITS, IN A MODE TO SAY,

    ONE ON OUR RIGHT AND ONE ON OUR LEFT, one from God through the Holy Spirit, and one from Satan through demons, evil spirits. If a human being needs to be sure of which spirit is dominating him more than the other there’s only one way by which he determines that he is in the right spirit of God and that can only be achieved by ,ATTENTION Mike, reading

    John14:5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest;

    and how can we know the way?

    REFLECT ON THE ABOVE  Mike, it is practically the same question YOU ASKED! Read:

    YOU: How can I know for sure(THE WAY)  that you were given spiritual knowledge from above….

    Can you fit this MOST PERFECT answer to your question? NEVERMIND: 

    IN FULL HUMILITY ALLOW ME THEN, Mike,

    AS I KNOW FOR SURE, SINCE I BELIEVE IN JESUS, MORE THAN I BELIEVE IN GOD, SINCE GOD IS A MYSTERY AND ONLY IN JESUS I CAN FIND AND COME TO GOD AND THE FATHER,

    WELL ASSERTED BY JESUS HEREUNDER,

    BUT FIRST READ  MORE ASSERTED PRECISELY IN

    John 14:1 Read, discern and practice

    THE ONLY TRUTH! JESUS!!!

    LET not your heart be troubled.

    You believe in God,

    believe also in ME.

    I repeat again for TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE SAKE!

    LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED Mike, isn’t that what is happening to you,

    WHEN YOU ASKED THE ABOVE QUESTION?  

    NOW CARRY ON READING  and you will discover the truth AND YOUR HEART WILL NOT BE TROUBLED!

    6Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father,

    but by me.

    I DON’T LET MY HEART BE TROUBLED AT ALL AS I PRACTICE WHAT

    THE TRUTH, AND THE WAY JESUS RECOMMENDED ME, PRECISELY 

    HIS COMMANDMENT!

    7If you had known me,

    you would without doubt have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.

    OK Mike, IF YOU HAD KNOWN JESUS, 

    YOU WOULD FOR SURE HAVE KNOWN THE TRUTH AND WHICH SPIRIT YOU HAVE!

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 

    9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH JESUS, PRESUMABLY SINCE BIRTH, BY THE LOOK OF IT.NO? WITH EVERY RESPECT Mike

    you haven’t known Jesus true enough! 

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and

    greater than these shall he do.

    If I WORK GREATER WORK THAN JESUS DID, REGARDING HIS TASK AS

    GODMAN ON EARTH ESPECIALLY AFTER HE RESURRECTED, OF WHICH HE NEVER PROCLAIMED SINCE HE WAS NOT YET DIED AND GLORIFIED IN John 14, HOW COULD YOU BELIEVE ME, IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN JESUS AS YOU SHOULD DO?

    NOW WE COME TO OUR MOST VITAL POINT OF YOUR QUESTION!

    13Because I go to the Father:

    and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name,

    that will I do:

    that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    14If you shall ask me anything in my name,

    that I will do.

    Now let’s clarify in relation to your question!

    YOU: I can’t very well just take your word for it,

    since I can’t verify such a thing, right?  

    ME: AGAIN Mike I’m afraid YOU ARE WRONG, WITH RESPECT TO

    THE TRUTH, IN JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE! I EXPLAIN:

    MORE THAN 15 YEARS AGO I DID WHAT JESUS ASKED ABOVE READ:

    14If you shall ask me anything in my name,

    that I will do.

    I FULLY DETERMINED, SIMPLY ASKED JESUS A VERY CLEAR QUESTION AND THAT IS,

    THAT UNLESS HE HIMSELF TEACHES ME I WOULD NOT BELIEVE IN HIM AT ALL!

    SIMPLY AS I DON’T BELIEVE IN NO ONE ON EARTH REGARDING HIS  GENERAL TRUTH AND TASK.

    THUS IN THIS NEW LIFE, BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY, I RECEIVED BIT BY BIT JESUS TRUTH.

    I WAS AND AM GUIDED DEFINITELY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. WHY I AM SO SURE!

    I DON’T MEAN THAT THE DEVIL IS NOT DOING HIS PART BY ALL MEANS, NOW HERE IS THE ASSERTION THAT I AM IN THE POSITION TO DISTINGUISH THE TRUTH FROM THE LIE, ALWAYS WITHIN MY MATURITY!

    SINCE I AM FULLY CONVINCED  OF THE GOSPEL AND I DID WHAT JESUS COMMANDED AND ASKED HIM, PLUS THAT JESUS ASSERTED THAT

    HE WILL DO,

    JESUS WILL NEVER ALLOW SATAN TO INTERFERE OR MISGUIDE ME TO THE EXTENT THAT

    MY HEART BE TROUBLED, OR I WILL END UP MORE SUBJECT TO SATAN, OR EVEN NOT  SUBJECT AT ALL TO JESUS. NEVER, SINCE I  WAS A LOST SHEEP AND FOUND MY GOOD SHEPHERD!

    YOU: I can’t very well just take your word for it,

    since I can’t verify such a thing, right?  

    YES MIKE YOU CAN VERIFY SUCH A THING,

    AS I ASKED JESUS NOT THE DEVIL!

    ESPECIALLY SINCE I ASKED REGARDING GOD’S KINGDOM

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON

    JESUS CHRIST

    DID YOU MIKE ASKED JESUS AT ANY TIME DURING YOUR CHRISTIAN LIFE, REGARDING

    GOD’S KINGDOM AND HIS JUSTICE!

    Mathew 6:33 Seek ye therefore FIRST the kingdom of God, and his justice,

    and all these things shall be added unto you.

    YOU: Just like you wouldn’t be able to just take my word for it if I told you that the things I’m trying to show you came via revelation from God, right?

    THERE’S NO NEED TO DO THAT!

    YOUR OWN PREACHING WOULD JUSTIFY WHETHER IT IS A REVELATION OR NOT!

    I MYSELF  WOULD BE IN A BETTER POSITION

    SINCE I DID WHAT JESUS ASKED,

    HIS COMMANDMENT!

    John14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

    NO JESUS NO GOD!

    NO GOD NO JESUS!

    YOU: So what do we do?  Fortunately, there is an app for that…

    1 John 4:1… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Carmel, did you test the spirits that you say gave you what you requested?  What did you test them against?

    READ AGAIN THE ABOVE AND YOU WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER AND TRUTH!

    APART FROM THAT, I AM WELL SURE THAT

    JESUS WILL LET ME KNOW  ALL MY ERRORS AS MUCH AS HE REVEALS TO ME HIS REVELATIONS IT IS HIS TASK NO:

    DURING PRAYER

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and

    to whom the Son will reveal him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872697
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    We are not told what – if anything – is below the waters that are below the earth… only that there are waters below the earth.

    Well it would be safe to say that God is there. So now you are also looking down using your own analogy and simple 2D models.

    Unless that area belongs to a different God.

    #872700
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……So in your theology , the only way to God is from Jesus right?,  but Jesus said , “no man could come to him except God “draw him”.  Seems you have a contradiction of who moves on us first.

    IT’S GOD THE FATHER WHO BRINGS US TO Jesus , according to Jesus.  Example,  “Peter who do you say I am,  Peter responds , “you are the son of the living God”, Jesus answers, “blessed are you Simon Bar Jona, because Flesh and blood (Jesus was flesh and blood) , “did not tell you this, but my Father in Heaven has revealed this unto you,  …………….> UPON “THIS” ROCK, I SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL   SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT. 

    WHAT ROCK?, “THE POWER OF GOD”, to get into our minds and “Reveal the truth to.” 

    Just as God did to Peter, the same must be done to us.  You portraying Jesus as greater then GOD the Father is nothing but a , SATANIC LIE.   2THES 2  IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING , you are placing “The man” , Jesus before even GOD the Father,  which turns the “IMAGE” of him into A “MAN OF SIN” . JUST AS,  2THS 2 says ,  you need to read it completely and see what the outcome of them that do that will be, when Jesus returns and completely abolishes that “trinitarian” LIE about him.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

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