John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,821 through 22,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872651
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: This is my paraphrase for more clarity:

    A PSALM OF DAVID. A declaration of YHWH to my Lord, YHWH our Righteousness,: “Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

    Your paraphrase provides confusion, not clarity.

    LU: Jeremiah 23

    5Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will raise to David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.

    6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name by which he shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness.

    Jeremiah 23:6 NRSV…  And this is the name by which he will be called: “The LORD is our righteousness.”

    Ten chapters later…

    Jeremiah 33:16 NRSV…  In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The LORD is our righteousness.”

    Both the city and the ruler that Yahweh will raise up will be known as “Yahweh: Our righteousness”.  It doesn’t mean that either the city or the ruler will be Yahweh Himself – or even have Yahweh as a literal name.

    The NET scholars suggest that this title “sums up the justice that the Lord provides through raising up this ruler as well as the safety, security, and well-being that result”.

    This is just another example of how, from a misinterpreted verse here and a misinterpreted verse there, you’ve built yourself a doctrine that has no relation to the reality taught in the scriptures as a whole.

    #872652
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Gene,

    The Hebrew word adonai is not found in Psalm110:1.

    Gene, Kathi is right about this.  The Hebrew word that English translators render as “LORD” with all caps is what’s known as the tetragrammaton – the four Hebrew consonants that Hebrew writers used in place of the personal and proper name of the Most High God.  Those consonants translate into English as “YHWH” (some say YHVH).  But this is why the actual pronunciation of the name of God is unknow to us – because the verbs were left out purposely.  And depending on the verbs that were left out, it could be “Yahweh”, “Jehovah”, “Yehovah”, “Yahuah”, etc.

    It’s like the English abbreviation “bldg”.  You and I know to pronounce those four consonants as “building”, right?  But maybe people 1000 years from now would see “bldg” in our old writings, and not know what the missing vowels were.  Maybe they’d conclude that it was pronounced “bulldog”.

    So once upon a time, the Jewish elders knew how to pronounce “YHWH” – but because of a tradition that said it was wrong to say God’s personal name out loud, the actual pronunciation is now lost to us.  We are in the position of the future people seeing “bldg” – and having to guess if it was pronounced “building”, “bulldog”, or any number of other ways.

    But the word in Ps 110 that is translated as “LORD” with all caps is not “adonai”.  It is the tetragrammaton “YHWH” – the actual personal name of God.

    Kathi is also right that adon is used for God – not just men.  And I don’t know if it’s come up yet, but adonai isn’t exclusively for God either.  It is used for a man in at least one scripture.

    #872653
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful. 

     

    Carmel:  PERFECT Mike! FROM A HUMAN’S POINT OF VIEW!

    We are both human, and therefore only have a human’s point of view.  Even if an angel came to you and prophesied some future event, you would only be able to understand it from a human’s point of view – because that’s the only point of view you have.

    Fortunately for us humans, the Bible was not written for the benefit of angels – but specifically for humans.  Therefore I accept your commendation of my words above being PERFECT.  Thanks. 😎

     

    Carmel:  37As the Lord hath been with my lord the king, so be he with Solomon, and make his throne higher than the throne of my lord king David.  Mike, JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE HIGHEST, HIGHER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY…

    Nonsense.  None could be higher than the Most High God of gods.

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    #872654
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

     

    Carmel: NOT PERFECT THIS TIME, IN FACT IT’S A LIE!

     

    I guess we’d better consult our resident “Peacekeeper of the Forum” about this one.

    Hey @Proclaimer, Carmel disagrees with a statement I made.  He doesn’t personally consider my statement to be accurate, and has therefore concluded that I have told a LIE – which by extension makes me a LIAR (one who tells a lie).  Now considering that you have already commented on my statement above, and said it is the truth – but also taking into consideration your own definition of a liar (one who says something that another person doesn’t consider accurate) – we seem to have a conundrum.

    By your own definition, saying something that another person deems inaccurate is indeed a lie – because it’s not the truth.  So therefore Carmel MUST BE correct that I am a liar.  But my lie is something that you’ve labeled as truth – which means that you’ve also partaken in a lie by agreeing with and promoting my lie.  And that can only mean that you are a liar as well – simply because we both accept something that somebody else thinks isn’t true.  But at the same time, Carmel must, by your definition, also be a liar – since he’s saying something that you and I think is not true.

    So, O Wise and Powerful Peacekeeper of the Forum, where do we go from here?  Am I a liar?  Are you a liar?  Is Carmel a liar?  All of those must be true according to your own definition of a lie/liar, right?

    Or could it be that I wasn’t LYING, but only telling it the way I truthfully and sincerely understood it – and my understanding just happens to be at odds with Carmel’s understanding?  Could that be the answer?  Could it really be that simple?  Could it be that neither you, I, nor Carmel were telling LIES – but that we simply disagree on the conclusion/meaning of certain data?   Hmm… what a concept.  What a brilliant strategy it would be to have respectful discourse during which certain parties are bound to disagree on occasion – but nobody tells anyone else they told a LIE, or that they are LYING, or that they are a LIAR – because that would require knowing the heart and mind of the other person, and knowing for a fact that they were INTENTIONALLY saying something they KNEW was false, in order to PURPOSELY deceive others.

    What do you think about that plan, Peacekeeper?  Do you think we could disagree on certain things, and debate those things rigorously WITHOUT the words LIE, LYING or LIAR ever entering into the discussion?

    Waiting with bated breath for your wise ruling on this matter.

    #872655
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  This is its human origin that nobody here ignores …. But you put aside its divine origin to your disadvantage because if you believed it would open the horizon for you ….

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (John 6:38)

    Very well said!  I have tried to say the same to Gene and Jodi before:  Nobody here rejects one single “Jesus was a man on earth” scripture in the entire Bible.  Everybody here accepts that Jesus was a man on earth.  The difference is that most of us ALSO accept the MANY indisputable scriptures that make it abundantly clear that Jesus existed in heaven BEFORE (and after) being a man on earth.

    You can’t be much clearer than, “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”.  But to suit their own personal desires, Gene and Jodi are forced to imagine that their Lord’s words, “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN” mean that “the prophesied plan of Jesus” came down from heaven – or some other such nonsense.

    Too many people with their own personal desires trying to force the scriptures into teaching what they want them to teach – instead of just accepting what the scriptures actually teach…

    God created the earth.

    God created man.

    Man sinned, thereby passing that sinful nature onto all subsequent men.

    God divided the nations of men according to the number of gods (His spirit sons), but chose Abraham to make a nation that was His very own – apart from all the other nations.

    God’s own nation rejected Him and continued to sin.

    God sent His Son (not “God” or a “member in a Godhead” – but His Son) from heaven to earth to dwell as a man, teach His human children, and be killed as God’s own sacrificial Lamb to atone for the sins of all mankind (not just the sins of His own nation, Israel).

    God raised that Son from the grave, and brought him back into heaven where he was before.

    God’s Son now rules from a throne at the right hand of God’s throne, and will do so until God has placed every enemy at the feet of His Son, so that His Son can destroy them.

    Once that has been accomplished, the Son will relinquish the rulership that his God gave him, and his and our God will rule over the resurrected directly – not through a mediator.

    #872656
    carmel
    Participant

    Mike: The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.

    Carmel:  the above is only human reasoning!

    YOU: As opposed to what?  Do you possess some sort of non-human reasoning capabilities of which we are not aware?

    AND HOW! ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO DISCUSS THE TRUTH OF JESUS OF WHICH IT’S NOTHING FROM ME. IT WAS AND IS GIVEN TO ME AS I ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED, OF WHICH YOU ALSO COULD RECEIVE IF YOU SIMPLY ASK AND NOT RELY ON WORLDLY WISDOM WHICH IS NOT OF GOD, THE FACT THAT YOU CALL THEM NONSENSE WITHOUT BEING SPECIFIC ABOUT THEM AND NEVER JUSTIFIED YOURSELF AND PRODUCED SCRIPTURES.

    THE NONSENSE OF THE WORLD WHICH GOD HAS CHOSEN, THAT HE MIGHT CONFOUND THE WISE.

    THE NONSENSE OF JESUS WHO WAS/IS ONE SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3 AND GLORY John17:5, AS

    THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD WHO WAS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    Proverbs 8:22

    The Lord possessed me (AD INTRA)

    at the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning.

    23I was set up from eternity,  (AS THE EMBODIMENT AND CARRIER OF GOD, IN ORDER TO CREATE AD EXTRA) and of old before the earth was made.

    24The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:

    25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills, I was brought forth: (PHYSICALLY IN A GLORIFIED HUMAN BODY JESUS CHRIST)

    26He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.

    27When he prepared the heavens, I was present: (AS A SPIRIT IN THE HEART OF THE HEAVENLY CREATURES) when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:

    28When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:

    29When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when he balanced the foundations of the earth;

    30I was with him forming all things:

    and was delighted every day,

    playing BEFORE him at ALL times;(AS THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE EVER CREATED

    THE FATHER IN THE SON AND THE SON IN THE FATHER,)

    THE ONLY BODY, THE BEGINNING, John1:1 “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, John 1:14, GOD THE FATHER EVER POSSESSED AND ALSO MANIFESTED HIMSELF IN ON THIS PLANET EARTH AS A HUMAN AND SERVANT OF GOD AS HE WAS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    ME: Now PLEASE Mike, just read your own contradictions  to your own human reasoning above

    WHICH CONFIRMS WHY IT IS ONLY HUMAN REASONING!

    FIRST YOU SAID:

    YOU: The One who is in a position to put

    ALL THINGS under the other one is the One who is the most powerful. 

    THEN YOU SAID:

    YOU: We agree on the facts:  God (the Most High)

    has granted

    His holy servant Jesus

    a bunch of power.  

    Now in the post 872498, you said:

    YOU: God’s firstborn Son has exactly the amount of power and authority that his and our

    God grants him.

     

    TO THE NEXT ONE

    YOU: His and our God 

    could absolutely grant Jesus

    the power to do anything He could do…

    IN MY HUMAN REASONING I CALL  YOUR HUMAN REASONING

    A PING PONG REASONING!!!

     

    SINCE YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE AND STAND, AND SIMPLY CONFUSED TO DETERMINE THE JUSTIFIED LANGUAGE WHEN IT COMES TO ADDRESS JESUS AND HIS  UNIQUE DIVINE TASK FROM THE BEGINNING! AS”THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD!

    NOT ONLY AS AS A UNIQUE SERVANT, SINCE YOU PUT JESUS IN THE SAME BASKET AS

    THE DEVIL, MOSES, AND ALL THE REST OF SATANIC CONTAMINATED SERVANTS,

    BUT ALSO THE ONLY ABODE AND CARRIER OF HIS OWN GOD AND FATHER! HIS OWN SUBSTANCE, PRECISELY THE FATHER’S UNIQUE HOUSE!

    NOW IN YOUR HUMAN REASONING WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE AMONG THESE TENSES:

    GOD HAS GRANTED JESUS

    GOD GRANTED JESUS

    GOD GRANTS JESUS

    GOD COULD ABSOLUTELY GRANT JESUS

    IF FOR YOU THE ABOVE TENSES ARE, ALL THE SAME, IT SHOWS, AS YOU ASKED HEREUNDER,  WHY, WHETHER I POSSESS SOME SORT OF NON-HUMAN REASONING CAPABILITIES OF WHICH YOU ARE NOT AWARE.

    YOU: As opposed to what?  Do you possess some sort of non-human reasoning capabilities of which we are not aware?

    NOW TO KEEP YOU IN CLEAR MIND READ SCRIPTURE AND AT LEAST GIVE JESUS WHAT HE DESERVES AND WHAT IS HIS POWER ONCE AND FOR ALL PLEASE:

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:

    All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DID YOU READ THE PHRASE OF HUMAN REASONING 

    A BUNCH OF  POWER

    IN RELATION TO JESUS POWER FROM THE FATHER.

    WHICH CONFIRMS THAT YOU ARE ALSO NOT AWARE OF NOT JUST THE SORT OF HUMAN REASONING I POSSESS, BUT ALSO

    THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHER AND HIS FIRSTBORN BEGOTTEN SON 

    THE MOST HIGH GODMAN!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872657
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:28)

    Another great scripture to help Gene see the whole truth.  On the other hand, it is also another great scripture to combat the misunderstanding of “I am” in John 8:58.  Notice the present tense “I am come into the world”.  This doesn’t mean Jesus is claiming to be “I AM” (if that truly even is the meaning of YHWH).  It is just a difference in languages.  Where the Greeks would use the present “I am come into the world”, English speakers would say, “I have come into the world”.

    The meaning, of course, is that Jesus HAD come into the world, and would soon be leaving the world to go back to the Father in heaven.  But if someone really wanted to, they could try to force that scripture into being some mystical message from Jesus that he was the “I AM”.

    Likewise, in 8:58, the true meaning of Jesus’ words are that before Abraham even came into existence, he had already been in existence.  And if someone really wanted to, they could try to force the Greek present tense in 8:58 into being some mystical message from Jesus that he was the “I AM” – when the proper translation into English is “I was/existed”.

    And thusly proceed the people with their personal desires, endlessly trying to force the scriptures into teaching what they want them to teach… instead of just accepting what they do teach.

    #872659
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene, regarding what you wrote here:

    “the human root and offspring of king David “

    My response was:

    Please show me where that is in the Bible specifically with the word “human.”

    Your response in a post after my comment doesn’t give me the verse that says that Jesus is the “human root” as you suggest. You did not give me a verse but instead you answer by suggesting that I question Jesus’ humanity. Now instead of twisting the conversation, please show me where the Bible directly says “human root” in regards to King David.” If you can’t then we shall expose you as having another strike against what you proclaim.

    Thanks and happy hunting for something that does not exist.

    #872660
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: We all came from heaven , yes all humanity has. 

     

    Carmel:  You are completely lost , Gene, and ignoring completely PURE CLEAR SCRIPTUR! Read;

    John 8:23 And he said to them:

    You are from beneath,
    I am from above.
    You are of this world,
    I am not of this world. 

    Excellent use of scripture to directly contradict what Gene said.  Gene, you are claiming A, but your Lord himself clearly said B.  Gene, will you stop saying A now that you’ve been shown it is inaccurate?

    #872661
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Fyi, John 16:28 doesn’t have ego eimi (I am) in it so you are not comparing apples to apples when you compare to the I am of John 8:58.

    See the difference:

     

    Screen Shot 2021-08-08 at 3.49.00 PM

    Screen Shot 2021-08-08 at 3.49.41 PM

    #872662
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  This is the big mythology created by the writer of Fourth Gospel stating that the so called Messiah came down from heaven for which there is no proof in the Hebrew Bible.

    You don’t accept the proof in the OT that I’ve given you because you, like so many others, wish to tell the scriptures what to teach instead of allowing them to teach you.

    Besides, your personal choice to reject the NT has zero effect on any of us here. You calling the NT “mythology” is like the rustling of the reeds in the wind… of no consequence to us at all.

    #872663
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:   Meditate on it

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

    I have meditated on it for many years, and even your own verse above teaches you what I’m trying to show you.  Who is “the Majesty on high” that your verse talks about?  Is it Jesus?  Or is it Jesus’ God and Father?

    Jesus is God’s “right hand man”… not God Himself.  And someone’s “right hand man” is not equal to the master whose right hand he sits at.  He is lesser than his Master.  That’s why Jesus tells us the Father is greater than him… that he can do nothing without the Father… and that he serves and prays to the Father.   Why?  Because Jesus is the faithful servant of his and our God, and strives eternally to do the will of his and our God, YHWH.

    #872664
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: It’s as if you deny that a human son begotten by his human father, IS NOT HUMAN

    That’s a tricky double negative there.  I do indeed DENY that a human son is NOT human. 😁  Just kidding… I know what you meant.  What I deny is that the son of a human king who can raise people from the dead would automatically be a human king who could raise people from the dead.

    Yes, the son would be HUMAN.  But no, the son wouldn’t necessarily be every single thing that his father is (king, miracle worker, etc)

    So yes, God’s firstborn son is what God is:  A spirit being.  But no, God’s firstborn son is not EVERYTHING his Father is: uncreated, most high, omnipotent, etc.

    Berean: THE SON OF GOD HAS INHERITED EVERYTHING FROM THE FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE
    OMNISCIENCE
    OMNIPRESENCE

    Where can I read that Jesus is any of those things in the scriptures?

    Berean: AND THE WORD WAS “THEOS”

    The logos was not only theos, but also with THE theos in the beginning.  So he is indeed theos – just not THE theos.  There are myriads in the scriptures who are theos, Berean.  There is only one in the scriptures who is THE most high theos OF all the others who are theos.

    #872665
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: The FATHER IS bigger the Son IN AGE, NOT IN GLOBAL POWER

    You’re getting there, brother.  The Father is bigger than the Son in age because the Father is uncreated – while the Son had a beginning.  That’s a big step right there.  As for the “global power” part, Jesus himself tells us the Father is more powerful (and knows more) than him.

    John 10:29… My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

    This statement is not about the Father being greater than Jesus in age, Berean.  It is about the Father being greater than Jesus in power.

    Matt 24:36… But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    This statement is about the Father being greater than the Son in knowledge.

    Both of those statements show that Jesus is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.  But his and our God is both of those things.

    #872666
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Globaly I agree yours WORDS,

    but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.
    Romans 8: 3
    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his OWN SON in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    Hebrews1: 3 …. Who being the brightness of his glory, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON,
    Colossians 1:15
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

     

    to be continued

    #872667
    Lightenup
    Participant

    A father begins to be a father at the moment his son begins to be a son. In regards to God, his essence was eternal and became both father and son at the same instant.

    #872668
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:I’ll play along with the 2 dimensional analogy.

    The holy city has a gate in the east, west, north, and south.

    That doesn’t change anything, since the owner of the forest and his 24 managers sit on their thrones which are right outside of the EAST gate ONLY.   So now… can you look north towards the owner and his managers?  Can you look south towards them?  West?   Nope.  You can only look EAST towards them, because that is where they are.  If you are looking east towards them, then Kathi, looking west, is NOT also looking towards them at the same time.

    Likewise, if you are looking UP towards God’s throne from your spot on the ball, then Kathi can’t possibly look UP towards God’s throne from her spot on the opposite side of the ball.

    Proclaimer:  And did you mention already what is below hades and the deep? Or does that continue forever? Just endless water.

    I not only mentioned it, but I REPOSTED the same thing again a second time when you asked about it a second time.  Now you’re asking about the same thing a THIRD time, so I will repost the same thing a THIRD time for you…

    We are not told what – if anything – is below the waters that are below the earth… only that there are waters below the earth.

    What does it mean in your worldview that there are waters BELOW the earth?  Which direction is “below the earth”?

    Also, hopefully you’ll eventually answer this question…

    King David (possibly speaking in the Spirit) said that the sun runs a circuit over the earth.  Was King David LYING to us?  Yes or No?

    #872669
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Carmel:  37As the Lord hath been with my lord the king,

    so be he with Solomon, and make his throne higher than the throne of my lord king David.  

    Mike, JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE HIGHEST, HIGHER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY…

    YOU: Nonsense.  None could be higher than the Most High God of gods.

    SO ACCORDING TO YOU, I AM TELLING A LIE NO?

    AND IF I AM TELLING A LIE I AM A LIAR. NO?

    Isaiah 9:6For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called,

    Wonderful, Counsellor,

    God the Mighty,

    the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

    John14:13 Because I go to the Father:

    and whatsoever you shall ask

    the Father in my name,

    that will I do:

    that the Father may be glorified

    in the Son.

    NOT IN HIMSELF AS MAN!  Mr Mike!

    Hebrews 1:13 ……Sit on my right hand,

    until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

    Mike, WHO SPOKE THE ABOVE WORDS,

    THE FATHER NO!

    WHAT IS THE FATHER DOING RIGHT NOW THEN?

    LET’S SAY,  A RIGHT-HANDED PERSON, HAD AN ACCIDENT AND HE LOST HIS RIGHT HAND.  THIS PERSON’S LIFE IS PRACTICALLY USELESS!

    GOD ALMIGHTY’S RIGHT HAND IS

    JESUS CHRIST AND WITHOUT JESUS CHRIST AND HIS TASK ON EARTH,

    GOD ALMIGHTY’S POWER WOULD HAVE BEEN PRACTICALLY USELESS ON THIS PLANET, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN ALSO DETRIMENTAL FOR THE COSMOS!

    THE FACT THAT GOD ALMIGHTY IS IN HIS LONGEST REST AND RULING THE COSMOS BY JESUS OFFICIALLY AS

    THE HIGHEST EVER GODMAN!

    GOD OF ALL FLESH

    THE MIGHTY GOD!

    1Corinthians 15:All things are put under him;

    undoubtedly, HE is excepted, who put all things under him.

    28And when all things shall be subdued unto him,

    THEN

    the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him,

    that God may be all in all.

    (OK MIKE, AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    ONLY AFTER GOD ALMIGHTY IN THE POWER OF JESUS CHRIST PUT HIS ENEMIES AS JESUS’FOOTSTOOL, THE SON SHALL BE SUBJECT  TO HIM, 

    NOT NOW! and TILL THE END OF THE LORD!

    WHEN GOD THE FATHER  FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME, WILL POSSESS JESUS’ HUMAN GLORIFIED BODY, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH)

    JESUS CHRIST

    PLUS THAT THE ENTIRE CREATURES  IN

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON

    ALL POSSESS  JESUS’ BODY

    ALL CHILDREN OF GOD

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    1John3;2Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as he is.

    AS HE WAS EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS !

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #872670
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Let me educate you…  Up means higher. Higher doesn’t always mean against gravity. 

    Please do educate me, O wise one who can’t even answer simple questions that have been repeatedly asked.  Yes, the word “higher” (which means above something else) is often idiomatically used as “better”.  For example, if you wanted to say that a Porsche is “better” than a Ford, you could idiomatically say that a Porsche is “higher on the list” than a Ford.  And you can say that even if your list is lying horizontally on a table, because the idea is that the Porsche is on that list in a position that is ABOVE or before the Ford.

    But all of those idiomatic uses stem from the idea that above is better.  Jesus is from above, while we are from below.  Above is better.  Heaven is above, while Hades is below.  Above is better.  The idiom “low man on the totem pole” stems from Indians placing the carved faces of their gods/important chiefs on their totem poles with the greatest one being the top face on the pole, and the least of the group being the lowest face on the pole.

    So now that you’ve educated me, what do you say we move on from this obvious diversion attempt, and back to my point?  I simply want to know if both you and Kathi can look up above your heads towards the thrones of God, Jesus, and the 24 elders from opposite sides of a ball earth at the same time.  Can you?  Yes or no?

    #872671
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi brother Gene, Your example of Persian King Cyrus with Jesus the supposed Messiah is quite amazing. In fact Second (Deutero) Isaiah quoted him as Messiah (Anointed) in Chap 45.

    You sound surprised about that.  The Bible is filled with many messiahs/christs of God.

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